JTF- Your missing the point entirely. We did something about it. Yeah I protested. I protested when no one else did. No one from our committee knew exactly what or how it was going to be presented.

I cancelled two appointments with important clients last week and took my ass down there and chewed the architects out during the presentation and after the meeting.

In our meeting yesterday, the committee reinforced my concerns and the Public Works Director has promised developing more integration with the stops and further submittals for review.

Your inferring that somehow, something happened to change my stature. What changed was the willingness of the city to listen to our commitee's concerns and promise to come back with new drawings. The other broader issue is the overall line item cost is still being assessed.

I did what I felt had to be done to shoot accross the bow before this process went much further. And the press helped reinforce what the issues were. In our meeting we were promised more submittals. It is only reasonable to wait for them.

You obviously don't know me at all.

Reading that latest article just makes me angry about people like you who chastise us and act like we're sell outs. Every damn one of us is committed to accomplishing the goals set forth to the public- building a good system, trying to stay within budget and on time.

You can disagree what our conclusions are but I take great umbrage to your assertions that we are willing to compromise our goals.

If you and the other members of Streetcar Committee feel this way then great, but why are Public Works, the consultants, and non-members of the committee seeming to have more influence in the streetcar project than the people actually tasked to do it? I totally get the frustration as I am a consultant myself but whether the client agrees with me or not I still get paid. If I did my job as a volunteer I would have walked out the second I discovered my input wasn't really needed by the person making the decisions.

Did you even read anything that was posted? It was purchased for future use. You have to purchase it at some time. Would you rather it was not purchased at all, and risk someone else coming in later on and purchasing it before the city could? Or wait for the price to continue to go up as property values increase?

Then don't spend any money on it. Buy it, keep it from falling apart, and wait until mass transit is ready for a mass transit hub. As a federal taxpayer who supports rail transit that is woefully underfunded, I am more than a little concerned that precious federal funding is being spent on a transit hub in OKC that isn't going to be a transit hub for 10 more years and the tracks were only put in so it qualify for the funding - while place like Jacksonville were asking for that same money to extend an existing mass transit system with over 4,000 riders a day into a rapidly growing downtown adjacent neighborhood.

If you and the other members of Streetcar Committee feel this way then great, but why are Public Works, the consultants, and non-members of the committee seeming to have more influence in the streetcar project than the people actually tasked to do it? I totally get the frustration as I am a consultant myself but whether the client agrees with me or not I still get paid. If I did my job as a volunteer I would have walked out the second I discovered my input wasn't really needed by the person making the decisions.

If we felt we didn't have influence, we wouldn't be there. I think this circles back around to you not being happy with the conclusions that have been reached.

I don't know how to do a double quote. But this is to both Just the Facts and Andrew.

Look.... We had $10 million dollars to buy Santa Fe Station in the budget. We got a matching grant from the FTA. So now we are renovating the facility in it's entirely without even having a Regional Transit Authority. We are essentially years ahead of the Regional process. Should we not accept that money and get the Phase 1 of the facility ready? The historic station is falling apart. The parking lot is a placeholder for Phase 3 transit hall expansion.

Regarding the streetcar, the Mayor, Bricktown property owners, Bricktown merchants, the Ward 7 Councilmen (both Skip Kelly and later John Pettis), and our consultants doing the economic development scoring all wanted the loop through Bricktown that we are moving forward with. Therefore, we are putting stops on Sheridan and Reno and pressing forward with the tunnel punching through to serve them. Streetcar is part of the facility.

And now we are working with Public Works for even more integration. Also, we have fought for and won the reconstruction and pedestrian urbanization of EK Gaylord... A huge and difficult victory.

And yet all I am hearing from you guys is criticism of volunteers. You guys sit in our chairs for day and fight cultural intransigence instead of pontificating on a message board.

Jeff, I understand that you and everyone on the committee has working very hard to accomplish the goals you have set out, but does that somehow negate my opinion that the transit hub should have been integrated from the get go not down the line? My opinion is now invalid because I'm not on the committee? As if everyone that has an opinion on the matter could have been on the committee.

Jeff, I understand that you and everyone on the committee has working very hard to accomplish the goals you have set out, but does that somehow negate my opinion that the transit hub should have been integrated from the get go not down the line? My opinion is now invalid because I'm not on the committee? As if everyone that has an opinion on the matter could have been on the committee.

As has been pointed out, the transit facility is multi phase. It's out of the scope of MAPS3 and the Streetcar subcommittee to move the bus station to the transit facility. MAPS 3 bought the facility, and when future dollars and programs (RTA) evolve, they will move to Santa Fe Station.

The dollars simply do not exist and it is out of the Streetcar scope to make Santa Fe Station a complete transit facility the day it opens. It will have streetcar to Amtrak connections for now. As the transit system evolves and money comes available, it will become more of a transit hub.

The facility was purchase with 2020 and beyond in mind. It was important and a smart move for the city to secure the facility before someone has a chance to attempt demo for a parking garage, or sell it to someone who will hold it hostage.

The city bought it at a fair price, and has secured it as part of our future.

If we felt we didn't have influence, we wouldn't be there. I think this circles back around to you not being happy with the conclusions that have been reached.

There is some of that also.

Jeff, I understand that you and everyone on the committee has working very hard to accomplish the goals you have set out, but does that somehow negate my opinion that the transit hub should have been integrated from the get go not down the line? My opinion is now invalid because I'm not on the committee? As if everyone that has an opinion on the matter could have been on the committee.

Nope. Your opinion is always valid and welcomed.

Just to clarify, a short walk between most hub facilities and streetcar stops is commonplace. What I would like to see that was outline in our meeting is way finding signage to streetcar stops, a electronic system map with next streetcar arrival info in the main waiting room of Santa Fe Station, and a meaningful architectural connection to the two stops.

The challenge is going to be stretching funds to cover everything and make the facility self sustaining. A great deal of money is being spent to renovate the roof of Santa Fe Station that extends under the tracks and building the tunnel with BNSF's requirements.

In a perfect world, I would like to see a glass concourse that protects pedestrians all the way from the tunnel to both stops. An awning for rain protection at a minimum. We asked for those things to be considered and a line item revised budget now that the architects have a better understanding of the facility.

Regardless of the broader commuter train system not being ready to go, this is a major, major step in expediting that future connectivity and improving the experience for existing Amtrak passengers. It is as much a rehabilitation of that entire area as well and the project essentially extends all the way past the OKC Boulevard. Our committee has worked hard to make sure that the new Boulevard underpass responds to what we are doing at Santa Fe Station.

I know this is kind of off topic, but when can expect a commuter rail to go online?

As has been pointed out, the transit facility is multi phase. It's out of the scope of MAPS3 and the Streetcar subcommittee to move the bus station to the transit facility. MAPS 3 bought the facility, and when future dollars and programs (RTA) evolve, they will move to Santa Fe Station.

The dollars simply do not exist and it is out of the Streetcar scope to make Santa Fe Station a complete transit facility the day it opens. It will have streetcar to Amtrak connections for now. As the transit system evolves and money comes available, it will become more of a transit hub.

It won't have street car to Amtrak interaction. Not only is the nearest streetcar stop not on site, it's not even adjacent. Who is possibly going to get off at the transit station, walk to the nearest station on Sheridan, wait up to 10 minutes for a tram, and ride it 2 blocks further into Bricktown? The answer is no one.

Now if what was presented was phase 1 then present what the final facility is going to look like (knowing that the future isn't written), where we are now, and all the steps to get from A to B. If the parking lot is a reserved space for a future Embark bus terminal then let's see a rendering depicting that and what steps the City is going to take to make that happen. When you don't know where you are going any road can get you there.

dup entry

If we felt we didn't have influence, we wouldn't be there. I think this circles back around to you not being happy with the conclusions that have been reached.

Just to clarify, I know it looks like I am taking this out on you personally but I am not. The thing that concerns me the most is from my perspective it looks like you and the other members of the Streetcar Committee are being put in the situation where you can't be successful. Public Works should almost have zero say in the Streetcar to this point. They are engineers, not mass transit planners. Their job should be to build whatever system you guys come up with. If you want to put an inverted loop in Public Works should figure out a way to make the street car go through a loop, but they shouldn't be telling you "no loops". ...and yes, I know that was an extreme example and was presented for illustrative purposes only.

Now if what was presented was phase 1 then present what the final facility is going to look like (knowing that the future isn't written), where we are now, and all the steps to get from A to B. If the parking lot is a reserved space for a future Embark bus terminal then let's see a rendering depicting that and what steps the City is going to take to make that happen. When you don't know where you are going any road can get you there.

Ask and ye shall receive: Intermodal Transportation Hub Study | ACOG | Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (http://www.acogok.org/hub-study)

PluPan- It really depends on if there is leadership when MAPS 4 comes up in 2017. The Chamber wants to do the Regional Transit System. Many other city leaders are afraid that it might not pass and subsequently damage the MAPS brand.

Ed Shadid has led an assault on the streetcar and on city leadership. Public support for transit is really diverse.

So in short, if it does happen in 2017, I would say we are 8 years out to seeing a system begin to be built. If it isn't in 2017, I would think 15 years.

The 2040 growth projections for this metro are undeniable. We cannot pave our way out of the existing and projected transportation problems. I would say the best chance to get this done is to vote for James Cooper, talk to Meg Salyer, John Pettis, the Mayor, Larry McAttee, and David Greenwell.

In Edmond, Elizabeth Waner.

In Norman, Cindy Rosenthal.

We should be proceeding with the RTA now just to preserve cooridors, collate assets, and have a public entity that can negotiate with ODOT. There is every reason for these folks to do this now.

On the streetcar stop interaction, I really don't understand where the disconnect is occurring. There are two stops proposed directly adjacent to to the facility on the interior side of the street at Reno and Sheridan. It isn't two blocks. it is one block. And it is the short block not the long blocks we have here. Going into downtown means you walk to the Reno stop. Going further into Bricktown means you walk to the Sheridan stop.

It is reasonable proximity to the station as there are no interruptions. It is a direct walk without having to cross a street. I just would like that connection made more obvious and better protected through architecture.

Ask and ye shall receive: Intermodal Transportation Hub Study | ACOG | Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (http://www.acogok.org/hub-study)

Thanks as this really demonstrates the issue. The renderings presented in that plan clearly show streetcars pulling up right in front of the station, but that isn't going to happen anytime soon. Where the transit hall is shown the plan presented shows that same space to be a surface parking lot. So my questions is, how do we get from what phase 1 is to the final rendering in the ACOG plan? Is there even any intention to actually build the transit hall, since we are also told that will be the future bus terminal.

I think what would be really helpful is a time-lapse presentation of the site starting with what the final product will look like and working backwards to today which shows major changes represented as phases.

...and looking at this plan again, I would almost be in favor of removing the streetcar from EKG completely and having it run in the 70' corridor on the east side of the railroad viaduct (which would result in having to fill in a small portion of the canal). That is a former railroad right of way anyhow and the streetcar could pull right up to the pedestrian tunnel. It could go east down Sheridan, hang a right turn in the new space, pickup/drop off passengers at the tunnel, reverse course and hang a right on Sheridan again, and complete it's loop through Bricktown.

Do you really have that little imaganation

Do you really have that little imaganation

You mean trying to imagine two different uses for the same plot of land at the same time? I have no problem imagining it but I think it is impossible to accomplish.

It’s important to remember that the Santa Fe Hub project is on a very fast track because of Federal Railroad Administration Tiger Grant milestones. They need to rush it through multiple oversight bodies for approvals so right now they are bringing it before these bodies as information items (so BUDC last week, MAPS 3 Transit, DDRC and ACOG ITPC this week, presumably others to follow shortly). They will then come back for approvals early in the New Year. This does mean that where meetings are recorded, we do get to see whether or not Public Works and the architects/consultants are responding to input from these bodies themselves as well feedback in forums such as this and all the press attention this project has been getting.

See Agenda Item 8. A. 1. (24:11 to 38:53) at SIRE Public Access (http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=3104&doctype=AGENDA) where Anthony McDermid of TAP Architecture gives a somewhat unrehearsed performance at yesterday’s DDRC meeting (seems he wasn’t expecting to give the presentation). Can’t stress enough how important close public scrutiny over the next month or so will be to making sure this project gets done right.

Here' the phase two master plan for Santa Fe Station from the hub study.

9804

I served on the intermodal hub advisory committee, and the master plan has always included three stops for the streetcar adjoining the facility...one on the Reno side of the station...one on the Sheridan side of the station...and one on the Gaylord side of the station (see image). All of the stops adjoin the future facility and will effectively service the hub.

At the time the hub study was completed, the final streetcar route had not been selected. However, it was clear the streetcar would go in and come out of Bricktown on Sheridan and Reno. So there were stops placed on the north and south end of the facility. Because of the short distance between the intersections of Gaylord and the BNSF bridges on Sheridan and Reno, the stops had to be located on the east side of the facility. The only real question at the time the hub study was completed was would the phase one streetcar route make a crossover going in or coming out of Bricktown and travel in front of Santa Fe on Gaylord. Regardless of which occurred, it was understood that at some point, whether it be part of phase one or phase two of the streetcar system development, the Gaylord stop on the west side of the facility would be activated.

Would it be preferable to have all of the studies, plans and decisions for all of our future transit needs completed at once, and at the same time all discussions, negotiations and agreements completed and an RTA formed between all of the necessary municipal governments, and also at the same time have already passed a dedicated funding source for transit and/or have $1 billion cash in the bank so that we can perfectly integrate all current and future projects and plans before we even begin? Sure, that would be great. But that's not reality in the world of governmental planning and development, whether it involves federal, state or local projects. If we waited for that to happen, we'd never get anywhere.

If you look at the history of every transit system in existence, you will find similar planning and development struggles. It's the nature of the beast. As citizens who support transit, we have the choice of either getting directly involved in the planning and decision-making processes in order to TRY to ensure the best results or just sitting on the sidelines and leaving everything up to government officials. Doing the former doesn't always ensure perfect results. Doing the latter almost always guarantees against it.

Hat's off to Jeff and the rest of the MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee for their dedicated efforts in TRYING to ensure the best results. They're all down in the dirt struggling their hardest to help build a modern transit system from scratch, and I for one applaud their tenacity and efforts.

Merry Christmas!!!

Such a good post

I think it is really easy for some to make critiques based on very dogmatic and thin observations. It is much harder to actually implement when you have to face all the real constraints.

I have been both on the consulting side and been a high level executive in charge of implementing strategies and plans. It is MUCH easier consulting than doing. Thankfully we have many who work tirelessly to do the right things, even if in hindsight there were mistakes. Few people actually get involved enough to know the REAL hurdles.

Thanks to the doers.

Actually the playground should be moved to Deep Deuce, and there have been a few conversations to that effect. Since you moved the use of that playground has dwindled from hardly-used to almost-never-used. It's in the wrong location.

Long-awaited passenger rail line will soon be reality, as might expansion plans | Oklahoma Gazette (http://okgazette.com/2014/12/23/77815/)

Thought people might get a kick out of this short video. These are the exact, same type of streetcars that we will be purchasing in MAPS 3; at least aesthetically speaking.

Ours will also have lithium ion batteries on board for the low clearance bridge underpasses where we cannot install the wire.

Take a Ride on the Seattle Streetcar on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/12796321)

I've done it in real life a few times :p

The locals call it the SLUT (South Lake Union Trolley)

Thought people might get a kick out of this short video. These are the exact, same type of streetcars that we will be purchasing in MAPS 3; at least aesthetically speaking.

Ours will also have lithium ion batteries on board for the low clearance bridge underpasses where we cannot install the wire.

Take a Ride on the Seattle Streetcar on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/12796321)

Page rollover...

This is a very exciting video! I liked his line about combining all the experience from the part of the world that never stopped using the streetcar. All we need now is a downtown Whole Foods. :D Thanks for posting, UP!

I came here to post this video about Atlanta's brand new streetcar system, but UP stole a little of my thunder! :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w8c4blt2mQ

I've done it in real life a few times :p

The locals call it the SLUT (South Lake Union Trolley)

Ya, I ride the SLUT often as we have offices in the SLU area.

Ya, I ride the SLUT often as we have offices in the SLU area.How long has the SLUT been around? I might be interested in riding it as well.

How long has the SLUT been around? I might be interested in riding it as well.

Gotta love it!

How long has the SLUT been around? I might be interested in riding it as well.

I don't know....is it old enough for you?

I think the SLUT is only 10 years old or therebouts. .... A fine ride, I admit.

I think the SLUT is only 10 years old or therebouts. .... A fine ride, I admit.

No comment....

I don't know....is it old enough for you?Well, after seeing Hot Rod's post... helllllll to the naw!

I think the SLUT is only 10 years old or therebouts. .... A fine ride, I admit.
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/815/652/694.jpg

just so we're clear, the South Lake Union Trolley in Seattle, WA is approximately 10 years old now if I recall correctly. It is a fine ride, I admit.

Tomorrow we have our regularly scheduled Streetcar Subcommittee meeting at-

3:30
420 W Main street
10th Floor Large Conference Room

Also, I really appreciated the commentary in this interview regarding streetcar and the 499 Development. Greta podcast by Ben Felder interviewing Allison Bart Bailey.

PODCAST: Capital City, Ep. 17 | Oklahoma Gazette (http://okgazette.com/2015/01/17/podcast-capital-city-ep-17/)

It looks like a small problem popped up in the selection of a streetcar provider. It sounds like something that can definitely be resolved, however.

Potential dispute arises over who will build Oklahoma City's streetcars | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/potential-dispute-arises-over-who-will-build-oklahoma-citys-streetcars/article/5386676)


An attorney for Pennsylvania’s Brookville Equipment Corp. questioned whether the leading contender to build the streetcars, Czech manufacturer INEKON Group a.s., complied with technical specifications for motor mounts.
Ketter said two Brookville proposals — for wide- and narrow-body streetcars — were excluded from evaluation based on a motor mount design labeled rigid.

He contended those proposals were competitive in price and included the “moral equivalent” of the disputed INEKON motor mount.

After discussion, the advisory panel voted unanimously to recommend that the city begin negotiations with INEKON. The MAPS 3 Citizens Advisory Board was to consider the recommendation Thursday morning. The city council will make the final decision.

I'm I the only one here who hates the idea of a streetcar. It's essentially a bus that needs a special lane. Why not just increase bus routes that have more flexibility. It would be one thing if it was a subway system that was underground. I loathe this idea and the first thing that comes to mind is all the traffic problems it's going to cause when people dart out in front of them like you see too many times in other cities.

I think the benefits of the streetcar instead of increasing the bus system has been discussed here THOROUGHLY.

I'm I the only one here who hates the idea of a streetcar. It's essentially a bus that needs a special lane. Why not just increase bus routes that have more flexibility. It would be one thing if it was a subway system that was underground. I loathe this idea and the first thing that comes to mind is all the traffic problems it's going to cause when people dart out in front of them like you see too many times in other cities.

The difference between bus and streetcar, is that streetcar is a fixed guideway. There's no worry about bus reroutes, or if the bus actually comes by. There's rails in the ground. Permanent as can be. It instills confidence in riders when they choose where to live (if transit is important to them) as they do not have to worry about the route changing, same with businesses who want to be close to permanent transit.

I've used streetcar in several cities and all of them have been incredibly easy to use, full ridership, and haven't had any issues with cars running into them. (I'm sure it happens, but not often enough to make a difference). Buses can be struck by cars as well.

Well, permanent until a future breed of politicos decide to pull a plug.
It's happened before. I agree it should not happen again. Sadly, this doesn't mean it can not, or won't.

I think the benefits of the streetcar instead of increasing the bus system has been discussed here THOROUGHLY.

Not to say I don't agree that we should overhaul the bus system. It shouldn't be either or, though. It should be both. Different topic for a different thread.

The difference between bus and streetcar, is that streetcar is a fixed guideway. There's no worry about bus reroutes, or if the bus actually comes by. There's rails in the ground. Permanent as can be. It instills confidence in riders when they choose where to live (if transit is important to them) as they do not have to worry about the route changing, same with businesses who want to be close to permanent transit.

I've used streetcar in several cities and all of them have been incredibly easy to use, full ridership, and haven't had any issues with cars running into them. (I'm sure it happens, but not often enough to make a difference). Buses can be struck by cars as well.

Sounds about what I've read. After reading that I'm still firmly against it. I'd rather see resources in a true light rail.

Sounds about what I've read. After reading that I'm still firmly against it. I'd rather see resources in a true light rail.

We don't have the space for light rail downtown. We will likely get heavy commuter rail rather than light rail when we first get commuter rail. Cities can have a mix of types of rail.

Not to say I don't agree that we should overhaul the bus system. It shouldn't be either or, though. It should be both. Different topic for a different thread.

Exactly. Transit in central Oklahoma is not this or that. We need a comprehensive "all of the above". We are getting streetcar. We are getting bus improvements also. And there is room to improve both. I feel confident in the leadership to do both. The streetcar subcommittee has very dedicated and passionate citizens working to make the streetcar the best it can be with the resources given. ACOG is very quietly but steadily working on commuter rail. The City is allocating more monies to the bus budget. There's a lot going on, and I'm quite confident in a few years our transit system will be in a much better state than present.

The future of rail (light/commuter) will evolve from how successful we are with the street car.

I really think a key to the success of the streetcar will be the ability to provide connectivity down 4th to the OUHSC / fledgling "innovation district" from the CBD and Midtown. It will help bridge the gap and allow residents to more easily move to/from work, as well as help move people with daily or weekly business in each area. I work in the CBD and our people always drive to meetings there rather than walk even though it's so close. Hope that portion of the route gets installed sooner rather than later (or, worse, not at all).

That section is probably the most likely section to receive a federal match. I believe that it will happen. There is also a strong desire by Councilman Pettis to see it expanded through OUHSC up into the NE side.

I'm I the only one here who hates the idea of a streetcar. It's essentially a bus that needs a special lane. Why not just increase bus routes that have more flexibility. It would be one thing if it was a subway system that was underground. I loathe this idea and the first thing that comes to mind is all the traffic problems it's going to cause when people dart out in front of them like you see too many times in other cities.

What you see as "flexibility," is seen as developers as a temporary asset. It lacks physical impact, which OKC needs.

Impact is a more difficult thing to describe, but it requires vision. The streetcar isn't about one thing, but it's bridging our assets in a visible way that is as much about community and economic development as it is transit. It's the highest form of mass transit, and it elevates the service level in the entire system if planned right.

The key with OKC's transit future is to keep doing as much as we can at every moment. Right now we are doing that, because we are upgrading bus service, and also have this capital funding for a building project. Capital funding is not operations funding. The next step is to figure out rail operations funding and then to expand the rail into neighborhoods with other bus connections. Then just consolidate the service map into a core-area grid, with a few key arteries on the edge like NW Expwy and I-240 running at 15-20 minute intervals.

All of a sudden, you have a decently functioning transit network. Then add the commuter rail that ACOG is working on, and a MAPS 4 TRANSIT initiative. All of a sudden, OKC is in business as a great transit town. That's a vision that is attainable and currently underway. We should support it. The entire vision is vitally important, not just any one piece of it at the expense of another.

Today was a big day for MAPS 3 streetcar. Council voted to move forward with negotiations with INEKON to purchase streetcars. The hope is that the Notice to Proceed will be issued in June or July.

Discussion begins at 17:30 about MAPS Streetcar. Mark Gibbs did a great job. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVg2zE37CR8

What's with Greiner voting against moving forward with negotiations?

Councilman Greiner repeatedly said that he supported ALL maps3 projects during his election bid against Gary Marrs.

Nearly immediately after being elected, he made it clear in multiple City Council meetings that he would vote NO on any streetcar related council votes no matter what they are. He has committed himself to be an obstructionist to this program despite his pre-election commitment.

Sheesh, I wish I could vote him out. I guess I'll have to be satisfied with booting Shadid. Has Greiner explained that stance?

He has said that he believes that he believe that the City should not provide Public Transportation of any type and that the free market should resolve public transportation needs.