I'm not crying over spilled milk. Obviously, I'm supporting the project going forward. But that graphic does a good job of exposing the weakness of a figure eight, hard to read "spine" route. I'm a very regular transit user and trying to figure out where to get on downtown to get on one of the colored lines is going to take some pretty serious thought. Same with crossing the city like you might normally with lines that go "through" the downtown core. It's a little strange to see rail routes that strictly originate downtown that severely. Most places, transfers are more linear and you can stay on the train to go right through any central core.

We don't have a lot of examples here in the US so perhaps this is just a reflection of not enough people actually knowing what interurban rail networks look like.

I hope really knowledgeable people are tasked with mitigating this built-in challenge.

I think it is important to have at least some linear route that transects the urban core. Maybe connect the purple N/S line all the way down to the blue line via Hudson? Somehow, you've got to be able to go 3 miles without needing to use 3 routes.

I'm not looking to pick a fight with anyone but does anyone else think that is incredibly unreadable? Meh on, circulators. :) I think the solution will be as you add lines, you've going to want to blur out the circulator. For example, the two green lines (light and dark) actually becomes one line. The purple and light blue becomes one. Red and orange, another. And so on. And really just minimize that circulator. I think it will confuse people once you've actually added all of those other lines. Of course, if you actually do install all those other routes, you'll probably have the money and political willpower to do whatever you need to do. Additionally, the city will be a very different place and the routes can be simplified. Density allows for simplicity in transit so here's to looking forward to the future!

Cool map though. It is exciting to think about it happening.

I'm with you on this, Sid.

The circulator can't be the centerpiece forever.

We should be striving for a system that lets you get anywhere in 1 or 2 transfers. Anything more than 2 transfers in one system (street-car, bus, rail) probably needs to be reworked.

ON EDIT: It's actually really easy to make E/W lines flow smoothly in a vertical figure-8 circulator...N/S lines not so much.

Ask Austin if you think circulators are "meh." They built commuter rail first costing considerable political capital and now they realize they should have done a circulator first. The system is going to be successful.

Another thing that seems to be lacking in both our bus system and these proposed routes is overlapping routes that jut off in different directions over time OR multiple connection points. It seems like there are too many individual routes to actually accomplish MASS transit. If you have routes that have multiple lines, you're serving a concentration of people to a variety of more specific areas. The DART does a great job of that particular aspect of Mass Transit. Here are 3 system maps of very user-friend public transit systems:

454345444545

I think the important thing is to realize what we want ultimately is an integrated, multi-modal system. No one piece solves all problems. The streetcar can function alone and I think will function well, but its value escalates if it complements commuter rail and an integrated bus system. We can congratulate ourselves briefly for coming up with a proposal that fulfills MAPS 3 promises and expectations, but in no way should we stop pushing for further transit improvements and expansion.

A point of clarification: I afraid my graphic might not be as clear as intended. My original graphic probably communicated the loop track a bit clearer (http://www.okctalk.com/transportation/20121-modern-streetcar-commuter-transit-project-maps-3-progresses-42.html#post663631). The gray "circulator" is not a separate line. It is a section of track that each colored line will circulate on in the course of their routes before veering off to each of their respective branch routes. A north-south or east-west through movement (or any through movement) would entail one transfer at either the hub or any other stop along the circulator track. This configuration is extremely similar to that of the “Loop” in Chicago. This makes much more sense when dealing with a basic circular loop like I originally proposed. When you try to fit it to the approved framework, it gets much more convoluted. There have been some good suggestions made so far that I will incorporate in the next version. Thanks.

If anybody wants it, I will make available the Adobe Illustrator file that I used to create these layouts.

I think the important thing is to realize what we want ultimately is an integrated, multi-modal system. No one piece solves all problems. The streetcar can function alone and I think will function well, but its value escalates if it complements commuter rail and an integrated bus system. We can congratulate ourselves briefly for coming up with a proposal that fulfills MAPS 3 promises and expectations, but in no way should we stop pushing for further transit improvements and expansion.

I don't disagree with this really, but a multi-modal system doesn't solve certain problems if the systems pertaining to individual modes are flawed, and one flawed part of the system can also cause peril to the other parts, inasmuch as if the tram were to not be a successful component of our transit system, nobody is going to rail in from Edmond only to be stuck navigating an inefficient downtown network.

I'm not saying that's what we have or even that what Andrew suggested is somehow horribly flawed. However, establishing the most efficient system leads to increased ridership, and I'm thinking there are better ways to do that than maintain the circulator in the long run.

So, if we were to get a fully integrated mass transit system, what would be the limits to where buses would go? What is considered Oklahoma City city limits? Memorial on the north, 89th on the south, Council on the west and Midwest Boulevard on the east? I would think to make it as effecient as possible, there would be a bus stop only every half mile. So, if we are talking about the square mile bound by NW 10, NW 23, May and Penn, there would be stop at the corners of 10 and May, 16th and May, 23rd and May, 23rd and Villa, 16th and Villa, 10th and Villa, 10th and Penn, 16th and Penn and 23rd and Penn. That would be nine stops for a square mile but, a lot of those would overlap with other square miles so about six stops per square mile and less when you get into the less populated areas like east of I-35 and between 44, Kilpatrick turnpike, Broadway Extension and 44/35. This would make it where anyone wanting to ride the bus would not have to walk further than 1/2 mile to get to the nearest bus stop. Once the system got up and going and people understood it, extra stops and routes could be added as needed. A dedicated bus line from the airport to downtown is being considered and I think one going down NW Expressway and back would be a good idea as well. So, with all that, you would not want to take a bus from NW OKC all the way DT for a transfer when you need to get back to NW OKC for work. Would several other bus transfer stations be built so there wouldn't be as much of a time lapse?

I would think the streetcar would only really serve the DT/MT/OUHSC/Capital/JFK/Plaza/OCU/Capitol Hill area and everything else would be served by bus or some sort of rail.

Of course, ideally, there would be commuter rail (not to be confused with light rail) traveling north to Edmond, south to Norman, East to MWC and west to Yukon.

Thoughts?

Commuter rail is in our future, I believe, and perhaps not so far off as I used to think. There seems to be real interest in creation of an RTD/RTA, and that is the first step. Ultimately we will need a dedicated funding source, similar to that for the zoo.

So, if we were to get a fully integrated mass transit system, what would be the limits to where buses would go? What is considered Oklahoma City city limits? Memorial on the north, 89th on the south, Council on the west and Midwest Boulevard on the east? I would think to make it as effecient as possible, there would be a bus stop only every half mile. So, if we are talking about the square mile bound by NW 10, NW 23, May and Penn, there would be stop at the corners of 10 and May, 16th and May, 23rd and May, 23rd and Villa, 16th and Villa, 10th and Villa, 10th and Penn, 16th and Penn and 23rd and Penn. That would be nine stops for a square mile but, a lot of those would overlap with other square miles so about six stops per square mile and less when you get into the less populated areas like east of I-35 and between 44, Kilpatrick turnpike, Broadway Extension and 44/35. This would make it where anyone wanting to ride the bus would not have to walk further than 1/2 mile to get to the nearest bus stop. Once the system got up and going and people understood it, extra stops and routes could be added as needed. A dedicated bus line from the airport to downtown is being considered and I think one going down NW Expressway and back would be a good idea as well. So, with all that, you would not want to take a bus from NW OKC all the way DT for a transfer when you need to get back to NW OKC for work. Would several other bus transfer stations be built so there wouldn't be as much of a time lapse?

I would think the streetcar would only really serve the DT/MT/OUHSC/Capital/JFK/Plaza/OCU/Capitol Hill area and everything else would be served by bus or some sort of rail.

Of course, ideally, there would be commuter rail (not to be confused with light rail) traveling north to Edmond, south to Norman, East to MWC and west to Yukon.

Thoughts?

Rail/"Metro/Subway/U-Bahn": Edmond to Norman (2025), Yukon to MWC (2035) both going through Santa Fe station.

Streetcar/Tram: Area roughly bordered by Penn/N23rd/Eastern/S25th (built through 2035)

Busses: Airport (yesterday), and extending from the edge of the original circulator outward, and from the end of outbound tram routes. Ideally most busses wouldn't pass by the multi-modal hub. Certain express routes, yes. But as soon as OKC leaves behind the hub-and-spoke bus system, the better. Bus routes are easily modified and will be changed a lot over the next 20 years as OKC really begins to change it's mass transit system.

Commuter rail is in our future, I believe, and perhaps not so far off as I used to think. There seems to be real interest in creation of an RTD/RTA, and that is the first step. Ultimately we will need a dedicated funding source, similar to that for the zoo.

I agree. I think people were thinking of light rail and how expensive that would be, but with commuter rail using existing rails and really only having to update and get the ROW, the infrastructure is a lot closer than originally thought. Of course, the stops, park and ride areas, trains themselves, etc still need to be taken care of, but the part that would take the longest (laying the track) is not necessary or seems to be a lot less intrusive than what was originally thought.

It was fun in New Orleans this past weekend for the Annual Technical Conference and Exhibition put on by the Society of Petroleum Engineers.
Old streetcar system with overhead wires were to capacity every time of the day Saturday and Sunday.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3730/9997571934_f5c67b698d_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77483833@N04/9997571934/)
New Orleans Streetcar (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77483833@N04/9997571934/) by lazio85 (http://www.flickr.com/people/77483833@N04/), on Flickr

Day passes for all their modes of transit seem to be a big hit in this city, $3/day!
http://www.norta.com/_meta/files/Getting_Around/RTA-SystemMap.pdf

Rail/"Metro/Subway/U-Bahn": Edmond to Norman (2025), Yukon to MWC (2035) both going through Santa Fe station.

Streetcar/Tram: Area roughly bordered by Penn/N23rd/Eastern/S25th (built through 2035)

Busses: Airport (yesterday), and extending from the edge of the original circulator outward, and from the end of outbound tram routes. Ideally most busses wouldn't pass by the multi-modal hub. Certain express routes, yes. But as soon as OKC leaves behind the hub-and-spoke bus system, the better. Bus routes are easily modified and will be changed a lot over the next 20 years as OKC really begins to change it's mass transit system.

we very well could see commuter rail from edmond to norman MWC to OKC and NE OKC to the Airport all through the Sante Fe station in the by 2025 ..

if the street car is a success ... you could see it triple in size (or more) by 2035

So, if we were to get a fully integrated mass transit system, what would be the limits to where buses would go? What is considered Oklahoma City city limits? Memorial on the north, 89th on the south, Council on the west and Midwest Boulevard on the east? I would think to make it as effecient as possible, there would be a bus stop only every half mile. So, if we are talking about the square mile bound by NW 10, NW 23, May and Penn, there would be stop at the corners of 10 and May, 16th and May, 23rd and May, 23rd and Villa, 16th and Villa, 10th and Villa, 10th and Penn, 16th and Penn and 23rd and Penn. That would be nine stops for a square mile but, a lot of those would overlap with other square miles so about six stops per square mile and less when you get into the less populated areas like east of I-35 and between 44, Kilpatrick turnpike, Broadway Extension and 44/35. This would make it where anyone wanting to ride the bus would not have to walk further than 1/2 mile to get to the nearest bus stop. Once the system got up and going and people understood it, extra stops and routes could be added as needed. A dedicated bus line from the airport to downtown is being considered and I think one going down NW Expressway and back would be a good idea as well. So, with all that, you would not want to take a bus from NW OKC all the way DT for a transfer when you need to get back to NW OKC for work. Would several other bus transfer stations be built so there wouldn't be as much of a time lapse?

I would think the streetcar would only really serve the DT/MT/OUHSC/Capital/JFK/Plaza/OCU/Capitol Hill area and everything else would be served by bus or some sort of rail.

Of course, ideally, there would be commuter rail (not to be confused with light rail) traveling north to Edmond, south to Norman, East to MWC and west to Yukon.

Thoughts?

The rail is the next "logical" step in our OKC Metro Transit needs.

we very well could see commuter rail from edmond to norman MWC to OKC and NE OKC to the Airport all through the Sante Fe station in the by 2025 ..

if the street car is a success ... you could see it triple in size (or more) by 2035

If we get all that commuter rail accomplished by 2025, I'll be impressed. Certainly I think Edmond to Norman is a lock in the next 15 years. But the Airport/NE line in particular seems like it's going to be more difficult to accomplish in just 11 years.

The streetcar should be fine and successful, but the development of the system past this initial starter is going to be crucial to justifying its expansion.

Obviously a lot of these routes can use existing lines which would speed up the process, but a lot of downtown to the airport (if done by rail) would have to be laid. There would have to be two miles of new line laid from Meridian and Airport Road to the airport and about two miles from where the rail stops at I-40 and Exchange to the Santa Fe train station. I would think a dedicated bus line from the airport to the Meridian hotel corridor and then to downtown would be a lot easier and much, much less expensive.

If we get all that commuter rail accomplished by 2025, I'll be impressed. Certainly I think Edmond to Norman is a lock in the next 15 years. But the Airport/NE line in particular seems like it's going to be more difficult to accomplish in just 11 years.

The streetcar should be fine and successful, but the development of the system past this initial starter is going to be crucial to justifying its expansion.

the airport to the NE is the "easiest" line to get done .. OKC owns large portions of the track ... in is all in OKC (making it possible to be included in an OKC only vote Maps4?) and the NE line study has already been accomplished ..

the norman/edmond to okc line will take a RTA and a regional transit tax now if that tax passes (allowing the RTA to issue bonds) .. around 2016-2019 both that line and the MWC line could be open not long after .. and expanded bus service ..could happen region wide directly after

Where is the NE line terminating according to the study?

Zoo?

Where is the NE line terminating according to the study?

The study itself terminates at NE 50th street right now. So it encompasses Santa Fe Station all the way to NE 50th. In fact, I have been working on this project this morning.

Councilman Pettis and several transit advocates are meeting with various "stakeholders" ie Zoo, Remington Park, Softball complex, OmniePlex, and the City/County Heath Department to determine what best serves those facilities. Obviously, along the way there are potential stops at 4th, 10th, 16th, 23rd, 36th, Oklahoma Railway Museum, and 50th depending on what type of rail mode is used (Commuter Type Rial Cars versus Rapid Streetcar).

There is a hotel in the works at Remington Park. It is really those entities that need to get with Councilman Pettis to determine where to go from the NE 50th street termination.

BTW, I have been thinking about "MAPS 4" and what that might entail if a RTA isn't pursued in the near future. I would love to post about what I think is politically viable, but can't stand the thought of that +#%@*&$^ mayoral candidate running with my ideas. So I am going to keep it to myself. I do think that there are some easy major enhancements with rail, BRT, and enhanced bus that could work in concert with the investment that we are building in MAPS 3. If we can resolve the ongoing O&M issue, there are many opportunities that would have broad political support IMHOP.

Need to have that figured out by 2016.

Obviously a lot of these routes can use existing lines which would speed up the process, but a lot of downtown to the airport (if done by rail) would have to be laid. There would have to be two miles of new line laid from Meridian and Airport Road to the airport and about two miles from where the rail stops at I-40 and Exchange to the Santa Fe train station. I would think a dedicated bus line from the airport to the Meridian hotel corridor and then to downtown would be a lot easier and much, much less expensive.

Why do this twice?

By using heavy rail ( AmTrak ) we have to do this for the areas that do not have a line, plus the others. If we Light Rail, like Orlando, then we can have a line from the Airpot to Meridian. From there, there can be the E - W line from Yukon to MWC ...?

There is zero need for an Amtrak service for a regional commuter rail. Let's just do this once, the right way like Orlando.

Why do this twice?

By using heavy rail ( AmTrak ) we have to do this for the areas that do not have a line, plus the others. If we Light Rail, like Orlando, then we can have a line from the Airpot to Meridian. From there, there can be the E - W line from Yukon to MWC ...?

There is zero need for an Amtrak service for a regional commuter rail. Let's just do this once, the right way like Orlando.

Simply put, it is much, much more expensive and basically achieves the same goal, getting people from the airport to the Meridian corridor or Downtown where the highest density of hotels are in the metro. Norfolk, VA is building Tide Light Rail and it is going to cost them $43 million/mile. If we were to do light rail from the airport to the Santa Fe trail station by just following the highway, it would bhe about 10 miles and would run $430 million dollars by Norfolk's numbers not to mention operating costs. Why would you do that when for a fraction of that you could do a dedicated bus to and from and when it becomes more popular, build a dedicated bus lane, creating BRT?

Simply put, it is much, much more expensive and basically achieves the same goal, getting people from the airport to the Meridian corridor or Downtown where the highest density of hotels are in the metro. Norfolk, VA is building Tide Light Rail and it is going to cost them $43 million/mile. If we were to do light rail from the airport to the Santa Fe trail station by just following the highway, it would bhe about 10 miles and would run $430 million dollars by Norfolk's numbers not to mention operating costs. Why would you do that when for a fraction of that you could do a dedicated bus to and from and when it becomes more popular, build a dedicated bus lane, creating BRT?

Let's use Orlando's Budget numbers of $ 20 Mil p / mile. This would run it to $200 Mil. This is very do-able. BTW, the I-44 / I-235 Interchange is estimated @ $200 million as well. So, we spend that kind of money in the existing ODOT budget. ..just saying we spend big money yearly.

Now, let me run this from the consumer POV. There is a point, when a consumer sees / realizes the Value they are wanting... ( Bus system is not gonna get the masses to move in that direction. They don't now.) The consumer wants a Clean , Pleasant experience, that has few stops, and gets them to a High Value destination... ie Airport / Convention Center / Entainment Venue / University / OUHSC , ex.

Example: Dont make a movie that has a cost $50 Mil ( just trying to keep cost down ) and only brings in $30 Mil in Revenue. Now, if you make a movie that has a cost of $100 Mil ( The right script, the right Leading actor / actress , the right director ) and it "has the buzz" prior to opening day, then you wil hit the $150 - $200 million Blockbuster. There is a point in which a product must have the "buzz / excitment / solution / Wow Factor" that all consumers desire. That is why you don't go just "half-way" on small - medium size investments. Let's not just get a new shiny bus, or a heavy ( old technology) Amtrak train, but let's get the NEW thing and then that will ensure that masses actually use it.

So, if we were to get a fully integrated mass transit system, what would be the limits to where buses would go? What is considered Oklahoma City city limits? Memorial on the north, 89th on the south, Council on the west and Midwest Boulevard on the east?...

I don't know where bus or rail service ought to end, but OKC extends well beyond some of the boundaries you have used. SE/SW 89th for example marks the southern line of OK County, but east and west of Moore OKC extends several miles (six? more?) to the south. I'm more acquainted with the southern aspects of the city myself, but the political ward map I remember seeing around the last MAPs vote showed the city stretching out in the other directions as well.

Let's use Orlando's Budget numbers of $ 20 Mil p / mile. This would run it to $200 Mil. This is very do-able. BTW, the I-44 / I-235 Interchange is estimated @ $200 million as well. So, we spend that kind of money in the existing ODOT budget. ..just saying we spend big money yearly.

I don't think it's really fair to compare OKC to Orlando. If you were talking about Louisville, Portland or Milwaukee, that would be a little more relevant, but when you are talking about a metro that is one and a half times the size of OKC, that is not a fair assessment. And more than 50 million people from all over the world visit Orlando every year. I am not sure how many visit OKC every year, but I would be willing to bet my entire paycheck that it is not near that amount. Also, SunRail (what you are referring to) is commuter rail, not light rail, there is a difference. Finally, the $200 million on the I-44/I-235 interchange is being spent over about eight years, not one because ODOT does not spend the money until it has it.

Simply put, it is much, much more expensive and basically achieves the same goal, getting people from the airport to the Meridian corridor or Downtown where the highest density of hotels are in the metro. Norfolk, VA is building Tide Light Rail and it is going to cost them $43 million/mile. If we were to do light rail from the airport to the Santa Fe trail station by just following the highway, it would bhe about 10 miles and would run $430 million dollars by Norfolk's numbers not to mention operating costs. Why would you do that when for a fraction of that you could do a dedicated bus to and from and when it becomes more popular, build a dedicated bus lane, creating BRT?

dedicated lane BRT when done right almost costs as much as true light rail ..

dedicated lane BRT when done right almost costs as much as true light rail ..

I understand that and that is something that could be looked at in the future if it is necessary but neither light rail, nor BRT is necessary right now. Let's get the basic lines down and the system up and running before spending that much on infrastructure that is just going to have to be cared for for year before fully utilized.

just fyi .. the city council officially released the 4.5 mil to the county court for the E D of the sante fe station today ... after it is posted to the court .. the city gets possession in 30 days

I don't think it's really fair to compare OKC to Orlando. If you were talking about Louisville, Portland or Milwaukee, that would be a little more relevant, but when you are talking about a metro that is one and a half times the size of OKC, that is not a fair assessment. And more than 50 million people from all over the world visit Orlando every year. I am not sure how many visit OKC every year, but I would be willing to bet my entire paycheck that it is not near that amount. Also, SunRail (what you are referring to) is commuter rail, not light rail, there is a difference. Finally, the $200 million on the I-44/I-235 interchange is being spent over about eight years, not one because ODOT does not spend the money until it has it.

Warreng88, ...If my wife bought a new car for $30,000 and set it up for 72 months, then you are telling me that my car only cost $416. ??? NO, this is the COST of the car is $30,000, the payment "method" is a different subject. It is called Dedicated Funds. Once that contract is "in place" then those dollars are committed / dedicated to that existing / ongoing cost weather I like her car or not.

Warreng88 ...what is the main attraction for Orlando? ....Disney. Why do they go? ...the great experience. Why does Disney have LIGHT RAIL for its Consumers? ...to ensure that "experience exceeds expectations". The first thing Disney does, is get you on a LIGHT RAIL. To move all those customers ( congestion ) into a managable point and get them into "that experience" ASAP. Thus RIDERSHIP. Have they EVER, put a family of 4 on a HEAVY Rail, w/ a diesel engine? No they have not. Why not? If you place a LIGHT RAIL system in place ( OKC METRO ), then we would continue to increases in our VISITORSHIP. I will guarentee you, that if you put them on AMTRAK Diesel Engines, it will not insure ridership.

Warreng88 ...the Line from Orlando Convention, Airport, Disney, is a LIGHT RAIL. This is MAGLEV technology. This is NOT a commuter rail w/ a Diesel Engine. Be careful w/ your PayCheck, I may hold you to it. The line has a max speed of 50 mph. with the needs of this line ( it can travel much faster, but this is not what is needed in this application).

I understand that and that is something that could be looked at in the future if it is necessary but neither light rail, nor BRT is necessary right now. Let's get the basic lines down and the system up and running before spending that much on infrastructure that is just going to have to be cared for for year before fully utilized.

...let's date the ugly girl first? ..let's spend money on her, first? I don't want to be seen w/ the ugly girl? ... and why pay twice for this?

NO. Let's do this right the first time. Let's give the consumers what they want. Let's set the bar "just a little bit higher than the ugly girl". Let's get ahead of Dallas, not trying to keep up with Milwaukee. Let's get ahead, or just save our money.

...let's date the ugly girl first? ..let's spend money on her, first? I don't want to be seen w/ the ugly girl? ... and why pay twice for this?

NO. Let's do this right the first time. Let's give the consumers what they want. Let's set the bar "just a little bit higher than the ugly girl". Let's get ahead of Dallas, not trying to keep up with Milwaukee. Let's get ahead, or just save our money.
With what funding?

Warreng88, ...If my wife bought a new car for $30,000 and set it up for 72 months, then you are telling me that my car only cost $416. ??? NO, this is the COST of the car is $30,000, the payment "method" is a different subject. It is called Dedicated Funds. Once that contract is "in place" then those dollars are committed / dedicated to that existing / ongoing cost weather I like her car or not.

Warreng88 ...what is the main attraction for Orlando? ....Disney. Why do they go? ...the great experience. Why does Disney have LIGHT RAIL for its Consumers? ...to ensure that "experience exceeds expectations". The first thing Disney does, is get you on a LIGHT RAIL. To move all those customers ( congestion ) into a managable point and get them into "that experience" ASAP. Thus RIDERSHIP. Have they EVER, put a family of 4 on a HEAVY Rail, w/ a diesel engine? No they have not. Why not? If you place a LIGHT RAIL system in place ( OKC METRO ), then we would continue to increases in our VISITORSHIP. I will guarentee you, that if you put them on AMTRAK Diesel Engines, it will not insure ridership.

Warreng88 ...the Line from Orlando Convention, Airport, Disney, is a LIGHT RAIL. This is MAGLEV technology. This is NOT a commuter rail w/ a Diesel Engine. Be careful w/ your PayCheck, I may hold you to it. The line has a max speed of 50 mph. with the needs of this line ( it can travel much faster, but this is not what is needed in this application).

If you re-read the bet, he may be taking your paycheck - It's whether 50 million people visit OKC in a year..... and I think Warreng88 is correct.

dedicated lane BRT when done right almost costs as much as true light rail ..

This. If anyone wants to know about BRT let me know... Supposedly Cleveland is the leader on BRT, which is a completely worthless mode of transit. I use it every day and work on projects that have attempted to integrate the route, etc...got into a screaming match with the RTA director at a ULI panel on TOD.

The only reason Cleveland went with BRT is bc we had an LRT extension plan we couldn't get off the ground for decades bc our low metropolitan growth made Denver and SLC more attractive when it came to FTA scoring..it then became more about just finishing some type of corridor and just getting a free federal streetscape. The lip service around town paid to the actual transit service aspect is ludicrous...

Warreng88, ...If my wife bought a new car for $30,000 and set it up for 72 months, then you are telling me that my car only cost $416. ??? NO, this is the COST of the car is $30,000, the payment "method" is a different subject. It is called Dedicated Funds. Once that contract is "in place" then those dollars are committed / dedicated to that existing / ongoing cost weather I like her car or not. I am not disputing that. I am saying that you are not talking about $200 million immediately, you are talking about $25 million for the NW corner last year, $20 million for the SW corner this year, and about that for the NE and SE corners then more money for the flyover ramps and the west side of the highway interchange, all over EIGHT years. ODOT is "dedicating" those funds each year but it is not $200 million in one year like you were implying. All of this is not even relevant because it is a private company building this line.


Warreng88 ...what is the main attraction for Orlando? ....Disney. Why do they go? ...the great experience. Why does Disney have LIGHT RAIL for its Consumers? ...to ensure that "experience exceeds expectations". The first thing Disney does, is get you on a LIGHT RAIL. To move all those customers ( congestion ) into a managable point and get them into "that experience" ASAP. Thus RIDERSHIP. Have they EVER, put a family of 4 on a HEAVY Rail, w/ a diesel engine? No they have not. Why not? If you place a LIGHT RAIL system in place ( OKC METRO ), then we would continue to increases in our VISITORSHIP. I will guarentee you, that if you put them on AMTRAK Diesel Engines, it will not insure ridership. Again, I am not even talking about heavy rail, I am talking about a dedicated bus line from the airport to the Meridian corridor to DT. People are not coming to OKC expecting a Disney type experience. I am not saying set the bar really low, but I flew into NYC-LGA and took the bus from the airport all the way to the upper east side to my brother's house. My wife flew to Chicago and took the bus from the airport to her hotel. My wife and I flew to Orlando for our honeymoon and took the Magical Express (Disney's dedicated bus line) from the airport to Saratoga Springs hotel. There are probably a ton of other examples out there that I have not visited that use buses to move people from the airport to the most touristy part of the city and that is what OKC needs to do.


Warreng88 ...the Line from Orlando Convention, Airport, Disney, is a LIGHT RAIL. This is MAGLEV technology. This is NOT a commuter rail w/ a Diesel Engine. The line has a max speed of 50 mph. with the needs of this line ( it can travel much faster, but this is not what is needed in this application). And if someone was looking at spending that amount of money to do it provately, I would be all for that but I don't think it would be worth it to spend that when a bus can do the same thing.


Be careful w/ your PayCheck, I may hold you to it. If you want to hold me to that in regards to Orlando versus OKC tourism number, feel free.

Obviously a lot of these routes can use existing lines which would speed up the process, but a lot of downtown to the airport (if done by rail) would have to be laid. There would have to be two miles of new line laid from Meridian and Airport Road to the airport and about two miles from where the rail stops at I-40 and Exchange to the Santa Fe train station. I would think a dedicated bus line from the airport to the Meridian hotel corridor and then to downtown would be a lot easier and much, much less expensive.

that is not the route you would take to get to the airport from downtown .. from sante fe you would go south across the river the directly west cross I44 at SW 25th st then following the path of newcastle road to meridian/air port road ..

from that point you would have to build new rail .. but not 2 miles to start with ... a great first step would be just to build the line to link with the new car rental facility just north of 54th ... from that point you would take the shuttle buses the rest of the way until a time when demand made the final rail link more realistic ..

that is not the route you would take to get to the airport from downtown .. from sante fe you would go south across the river the directly west cross I44 at SW 25th st then following the path of newcastle road to meridian/air port road ..

from that point you would have to build new rail .. but not 2 miles to start with ... a great first step would be just to build the line to link with the new car rental facility just north of 54th ... from that point you would take the shuttle buses the rest of the way until a time when demand made the final rail link more realistic ..

Gotcha, I was looking at the wrong line. Thanks for the clarification.

Gotcha, I was looking at the wrong line. Thanks for the clarification.

no problem ..

I'm all for light rail or a DMU to the airport. Arguably, using some of the existing alignment would dramatically reduce the cost. That alignment could pick up Stockyard City on the way enroute to airport but does miss the "hotel corridor" along Meridian.

The problem with airport projects is that they do not fit into the mold easily for FTA funding. Rail transit funding is primarily based on observable traffic movement. Airports never have the quantifiable data available in methods that the FTA will accept, therefore funding typically is highly based on local support for matches.

Warreng88 ....read closer on the paycheck statement ... I said be careful. You know, show some financial responsiblity.

What was Orlando (before) Disney? ...What would Orlando be w/o Disney? Yes, they have 50 Mil visitors, but not be cause Orange street is so much fun. Disney has this down to science. Consumer awareness. Their success is based on the understanding of what the consumer desires (even when the consumer doesn''t know what it wants, they figure it out "ahead of time".)

We need to implement the same process when we are looking at moving customers from one location to the next. Did you just say we need to add more buses? That's an old answer. The consumer is ahead of that.

Warreng88 ....read closer on the paycheck statement ... I said be careful. You know, show some financial responsiblity.

What was Orlando (before) Disney? ...What would Orlando be w/o Disney? Yes, they have 50 Mil visitors, but not be cause Orange street is so much fun. Disney has this down to science. Consumer awareness. Their success is based on the understanding of what the consumer desires (even when the consumer doesn''t know what it wants, they figure it out "ahead of time".)

We need to implement the same process when we are looking at moving customers from one location to the next. Did you just say we need to add more buses? That's an old answer. The consumer is ahead of that.At the risk of being called a hypocrite for saying this, I think it is you who is not demonstrating financial responsibility. OKC is not in a position to sell off a multi billion dollar form of transit even if it would save us money in the long run.

I am all for light-rail though and I would support, but we have to smart about it. I would also like to see I-35 widened to 8-10 lanes down to Norman to prevent future traffic problems, that wasn't a very popular notion round these parts, but I still support it. Obviously we can't have everything and have to be smart about how we approach this.

Warreng88 ....read closer on the paycheck statement ... I said be careful. You know, show some financial responsiblity.

What was Orlando (before) Disney? ...What would Orlando be w/o Disney? Yes, they have 50 Mil visitors, but not be cause Orange street is so much fun. Disney has this down to science. Consumer awareness. Their success is based on the understanding of what the consumer desires (even when the consumer doesn''t know what it wants, they figure it out "ahead of time".)

We need to implement the same process when we are looking at moving customers from one location to the next. Did you just say we need to add more buses? That's an old answer. The consumer is ahead of that.

I have to admit, reading your post's has been pretty entertaining...

Orlando doesn't have light rail and they wouldn't even be considering the Maglev if the guy wasn't offering to pay for it all himself and they are still making him jump through hoops...

If you can find someone to build us one, you'll probably garner some support but until then, you're just wasting your time...

...and what does Disney have to do with this? Other than being a destination, they are not involved in the Maglev proposal...

At the risk of being called a hypocrite for saying this, I think it is you who is not demonstrating financial responsibility. OKC is not in a position to sell off a multi billion dollar form of transit even if it would save us money in the long run.

I am all for light-rail though and I would support, but we have to smart about it. I would also like to see I-35 widened to 8-10 lanes down to Norman to prevent future traffic problems, that wasn't a very popular notion round these parts, but I still support it. Obviously we can't have everything and have to be smart about how we approach this.


Now, let me run this from the consumer POV. There is a point, when a consumer sees / realizes the Value they are wanting... ( Bus system is not gonna get the masses to move in that direction. They don't now.) The consumer wants a Clean , Pleasant experience, that has few stops, and gets them to a High Value destination... ie Airport / Convention Center / Entainment Venue / University / OUHSC , ex.

Example: Dont make a movie that has a cost $50 Mil ( just trying to keep cost down ) and only brings in $30 Mil in Revenue & no repeat customers. Now, if you make a movie that has a cost of $100 Mil ( The right script, the right Leading actor / actress , the right director ) and it "has the buzz" prior to opening day, then you wil hit the $150 - $200 million Blockbuster. There is a point in which a product must have the "buzz / excitment / solution / Wow Factor" that all consumers desire. That is why you don't go just "half-way" on small - medium size investments. Let's not just get a new shiny bus, or a heavy ( old technology) Amtrak train, but let's get the NEW thing and then that will ensure that masses actually use it.

Pleae don't confuse Financial responsiblity about "big numbers / budgets", but insuring the RISk is less than the investment.

I have to admit, reading your post's has been pretty entertaining...

Orlando doesn't have light rail and they wouldn't even be considering the Maglev if the guy wasn't offering to pay for it all himself and they are still making him jump through hoops...

If you can find someone to build us one, you'll probably garner some support but until then, you're just wasting your time...

...and what does Disney have to do with this? Other than being a destination, they are not involved in the Maglev proposal...

When we find ouselves (uncertain about what we should do as a city / metro / state ) then let's use the Correct Example for the Solution. Disney was that exmaple. Orlando is that example. Disney is the destination for the LIght Rail from Aiport. ...and Houston LIght Rail ...and expanding.

If Houston can find a way, then do you think "we" might be able to collectively make it happen? ... MAPS4 ( we can call it Rail MAPS). We can begin to take "some" of the ODOT budget for this as well. We can have a joint venture w/ JR Central. Let's let them invest in our markets, and help move us AHEAD of our competion ( Dallas / Austin / Houston ).

Warreng88 ....read closer on the paycheck statement ... I said be careful. You know, show some financial responsiblity.

Not sure what your point is on this one so I will say this and let it go: I said I would be willing to bet my paycheck that Orlando has more visitors per year than OKC has. There is no risk in this so I am showing financial responsibility. I know they have more visitors than OKC does, I just can't find the numbers for it right now.


What was Orlando (before) Disney? ...What would Orlando be w/o Disney? Yes, they have 50 Mil visitors, but not be cause Orange street is so much fun. Disney has this down to science. Consumer awareness. Their success is based on the understanding of what the consumer desires (even when the consumer doesn''t know what it wants, they figure it out "ahead of time".).

Disney is obviously one of the most visited tourist destinations on the planet but it was put there for the same reason Disneyland was put in Anaheim, CA: year round beautiful weather. I am still not sure why we are talking about Disney and what they do versus OKC airport to downtown transportation. It's like comparing apples to The Shining. It doesn't make since to have it any where near the same conversation.


We need to implement the same process when we are looking at moving customers from one location to the next. Did you just say we need to add more buses? That's an old answer. The consumer is ahead of that.

An old answer? Why not utilize something that hasn't been done anywhere if we are going to talk about it? Hovercrafts! You get off the plane and board a hovercraft that travels down a newly constructed riverway from the airport to the Oklahoma River, then take the Oklahoma River to Shields where we will build a new River on the west side of Shields linking it with the Santa Fe station!

You know, there is at least one monorail tram left at the State Fair. I'll bet we could rehabillitate it!

No offense intended OKvision. I really do love monorails. Been to Disney and Seattle. So much mass transit fun.

But if were talking airport- cost wise

1. DMU rail cars if you using existing rail and going to Santa Fe Station via the Packingtown Lead or rapid streetcar.

2. Psuedo BRT with automated traffic lights if your traversing Meridian and using I-40 and the new Boulevard to get to Santa Fe Station.

Its just a matter of what can be reasonably afforded and politically viable.

Now, let me run this from the consumer POV. There is a point, when a consumer sees / realizes the Value they are wanting... ( Bus system is not gonna get the masses to move in that direction. They don't now.) The consumer wants a Clean , Pleasant experience, that has few stops, and gets them to a High Value destination... ie Airport / Convention Center / Entainment Venue / University / OUHSC , ex.

Example: Dont make a movie that has a cost $50 Mil ( just trying to keep cost down ) and only brings in $30 Mil in Revenue & no repeat customers. Now, if you make a movie that has a cost of $100 Mil ( The right script, the right Leading actor / actress , the right director ) and it "has the buzz" prior to opening day, then you wil hit the $150 - $200 million Blockbuster. There is a point in which a product must have the "buzz / excitment / solution / Wow Factor" that all consumers desire. That is why you don't go just "half-way" on small - medium size investments. Let's not just get a new shiny bus, or a heavy ( old technology) Amtrak train, but let's get the NEW thing and then that will ensure that masses actually use it.

Pleae don't confuse Financial responsiblity about "big numbers / budgets", but insuring the RISk is less than the investment.I understand what you're getting at. The problem is, look how much crap we had to go through just to get a street car. OKC is not the biggest city in terms of mass transit friendliness and in order to fix that, instead of throwing billions and billions of dollars at once into it, we need to approach it carefully and make sure we don't dig ourselves into a debt hole we won't be able to recover from. I sincerely wonder if California will ever gain back the 100 billion dollars they invested in the their future HSR. . .

We need to get the street car under construction and while that happening, have a group looking at viable routes for a commuter rail. Lets get an expansive bus network implemented and the adventure rail going. Lets get the commuter rail under way and then look at future funding for a light-rail. I highly doubt people that would take a light rail to and from work, would not take the same train just because is a commuter rail.

If Houston can find a way, then do you think "we" might be able to collectively make it happen? .Houston is also likely going to surpass Chicago's as the countries 3rd largest city within the next decade or two. Have you seen the sprawl of Houston? It's massive, I don't think it's a bad thing, I'm just saying. Houston is freaking huge!!!!!!!!!

I believe one of the counties surrounding Houston has the equivalent to the population of the entire OKC metro area, or it is very close to it.

A maglev system will really put us on the map, like Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070609171045/simpsons/images/e/e7/Lyle.png

Houston is also likely going to surpass Chicago's as the countries 3rd largest city within the next decade or two. Have you seen the sprawl of Houston? It's massive, I don't think it's a bad thing, I'm just saying. Houston is freaking huge!!!!!!!!!

I believe one of the counties surrounding Houston has the equivalent to the population of the entire OKC metro area, or it is very close to it.

It is huge. Big numbers w/ Big challenges. I'm there once a month and yes, did ride the Light Rail to Reliant. Very cool thing.

A maglev system will really put us on the map, like Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070609171045/simpsons/images/e/e7/Lyle.png

Hoya... we are on the map now... we are a Mid Level Market, in the shadow of Dallas.

The only way to get in front of Dallas, is to Change The Dynamic. ...let's move it in our direction.

Hoya... we are on the map now... we are a Mid Level Market, in the shadow of Dallas.

The only way to get in front of Dallas, is to Change The Dynamic. ...let's move it in our direction.

And with that... Ignored...

Pete, I really love this feature.

And with that... Ignored...

Pete, I really love this feature.

Warreng88 ... What part that did you not agree w/ ? ...OKC ..Mid Level Market. YES. OKC in the Shadow of Dallas? ...YES, we are so close to them that they are the biggest competitor we have.

...and in business, you can't just equal your competitor is you want to win, you have to get in front of them. That is 100% truth. ( you may have very little understanding of what I'm speaking of on this subject, so i will move on with that part.

...Changing the Dynamic is what that MAPS Initiaitives are ALL about.

...so you points is?????????

Warreng88 ... What part that did you not agree w/ ? ...OKC ..Mid Level Market. YES. OKC in the Shadow of Dallas? ...YES, we are so close to them that they are the biggest competitor we have.

...and in business, you can't just equal your competitor is you want to win, you have to get in front of them. That is 100% truth. ( you may have very little understanding of what I'm speaking of on this subject, so i will move on with that part.

...Changing the Dynamic is what that MAPS Initiaitives are ALL about.

...so you points is?????????

OKC is hardly in the shadow of Dallas...Austin, yes...Dallas, well, we'd have to be anywhere near them to be in their shadow.

I'd just as soon OKC and Dallas never be mentioned in the same breath.

OKC is hardly in the shadow of Dallas...Austin, yes...Dallas, well, we'd have to be anywhere near them to be in their shadow.

I'd just as soon OKC and Dallas never be mentioned in the same breath.

Yeah, the DFW area is almost twice as big as the entire population Oklahoma.

Yeah, the DFW area is almost twice as big as the entire population Oklahoma.

...ok. wow. nevermind.

OKC is hardly in the shadow of Dallas...Austin, yes...Dallas, well, we'd have to be anywhere near them to be in their shadow.

I'd just as soon OKC and Dallas never be mentioned in the same breath.I've always considered OKC to be Dallas's miniature twin.

Hoya... we are on the map now... we are a Mid Level Market, in the shadow of Dallas.

The only way to get in front of Dallas, is to Change The Dynamic. ...let's move it in our direction.

This is you, missing the joke. It's a Simpsons reference that you did not get. Because you are coming across exactly like the cartoon salesman above. With the way you repeat the same arguments and the same examples again and again, you come across as having very little sincerity and appear as if you are a person paid to push an agenda.

The issue with pushing immediately for light rail is that it is probably not politically feasible. It doesn't matter how "good" of a deal something may arguably be, if you do not have the ability to implement it or pay for it then it doesn't matter. Right now OKC has decided to take the very first steps to rail transit, with a streetcar that is as much about a cool thing downtown as it is about actual transport. You are now asking for a billion dollar investment to follow it up. This is like trying to sell a guy who bought some sweatpants and a workout video a lifetime gym membership for the low low cost of $5000. "You'll save so much money!" you say. Right now we haven't even got up off the couch.

Your suggestion is not politically feasible. But when people tell you that you ignore them and spout the same arguments again and again. Therefore you are the cartoon salesman.

This is you, missing the joke. It's a Simpsons reference that you did not get. Because you are coming across exactly like the cartoon salesman above. With the way you repeat the same arguments and the same examples again and again, you come across as having very little sincerity and appear as if you are a person paid to push an agenda.

The issue with pushing immediately for light rail is that it is probably not politically feasible. It doesn't matter how "good" of a deal something may arguably be, if you do not have the ability to implement it or pay for it then it doesn't matter. Right now OKC has decided to take the very first steps to rail transit, with a streetcar that is as much about a cool thing downtown as it is about actual transport. You are now asking for a billion dollar investment to follow it up. This is like trying to sell a guy who bought some sweatpants and a workout video a lifetime gym membership for the low low cost of $5000. "You'll save so much money!" you say. Right now we haven't even got up off the couch.

Your suggestion is not politically feasible. But when people tell you that you ignore them and spout the same arguments again and again. Therefore you are the cartoon salesman.

:congrats:

This is you, missing the joke. It's a Simpsons reference that you did not get. Because you are coming across exactly like the cartoon salesman above. With the way you repeat the same arguments and the same examples again and again, you come across as having very little sincerity and appear as if you are a person paid to push an agenda.

The issue with pushing immediately for light rail is that it is probably not politically feasible. It doesn't matter how "good" of a deal something may arguably be, if you do not have the ability to implement it or pay for it then it doesn't matter. Right now OKC has decided to take the very first steps to rail transit, with a streetcar that is as much about a cool thing downtown as it is about actual transport. You are now asking for a billion dollar investment to follow it up. This is like trying to sell a guy who bought some sweatpants and a workout video a lifetime gym membership for the low low cost of $5000. "You'll save so much money!" you say. Right now we haven't even got up off the couch.

Your suggestion is not politically feasible. But when people tell you that you ignore them and spout the same arguments again and again. Therefore you are the cartoon salesman.

Hoya ...this is most likely way above your head. Do you even know what the ACOG is? This is the group that is putting the "NEXT" thing together and you have no idea. This is already in motion.... This is already moving forward. This is already "the path" that will be taken.

Now Hoyo, when you (and the other couch potatoes) get UP to Speed, then you can ring back in on this one. You just sit back and watch the parade in your sweatpants.

Hoya ...this is most likely way above your head. Do you even know what the ACOG is? This is the group that is putting the "NEXT" thing together and you have no idea. This is already in motion.... This is already moving forward. This is already "the path" that will be taken.

Now Hoyo, when you (and the other couch potatoes) get UP to Speed, then you can ring back in on this one. You just sit back and watch the parade in your sweatpants.
Wow. Way to win people to your point of view... :ohno: