The likely scenario in my mind is this:

When a "wireless" option is compared to a traditional, overhead-wired streetcar on a cost basis, the only way to keep the total project in budget will be to lop off a mile or two of track. Unless the overhead wire critics are willing to front the difference, that will probably end the wireless discussion.

That is the primary reason I think we should use proven, less expensive, conventional technology. All the other reasons are secondary to this.

And I don't think anyone's feelings about overhead wires should be influenced by this: Car Catches on Trolley Wires and Flips Over (HD) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmuhKWtW5Yg)

I really doubt we will be using Russian engineering standards for our streetcar. I cannot imagine any reason we would have a wire rising from the middle of an intersection.

The likely scenario in my mind is this:

When a "wireless" option is compared to a traditional, overhead-wired streetcar on a cost basis, the only way to keep the total project in budget will be to lop off a mile or two of track. Unless the overhead wire critics are willing to front the difference, that will probably end the wireless discussion.

Let's hope so, but even if they do front the cost, the overhead wire provides a lot more than just power.

What LN is wanting to do is use OKC taxpayer money to fund his research and developement and proof of concept. If he wants a natural gas powered streetcar that he can market to the rest of the world he should go do that on his own dime and submit a bid to the city when RFPs are sent out.

Do you have evidence this is what he is doing, or is this conjecture? I haven't heard even a sniff of this possible endeavor from Devon or LN. If anything, this would be more like Aubrey. Is this a LN business or a Devon business? It would be very interesting that someone claimed to be anti streetcars would be wanting to create and sell streetcars. Not sure I follow.

The difference as it relates to our city and the ability to get things done, is that an accomplished and visionary leader is more likely to succeed than the average Joe. Accomplished and visionary people tend to accumulate wealth along the way. Goes with the saying, "The harder I work the luckier I get."

Some of the most visionary, successful people on earth are not billionaires.

Do you have evidence this is what he is doing, or is this conjecture? I haven't heard even a sniff of this possible endeavor from Devon or LN. If anything, this would be more like Aubrey. Is this a LN business or a Devon business? It would be very interesting that someone claimed to be anti streetcars would be wanting to create and sell streetcars. Not sure I follow.

I tell you what - go ask LN and report back to us. Then we will all know for sure. Until then I'll take what he said, bump it up against the technologies available, and draw my own conclusions. If you know of some type of streetcar system that LN envisions and that I am unfamiliar with please share.

I tell you what - go ask LN and report back to us. Then we will all know for sure. Until then I'll take what he said, bump it up against the technologies available, and draw my own conclusions. If you know of some type of streetcar system that LN envisions and that I am unfamiliar with please share.

I did say last night that "if it were my guess, he's lobbying for natural gas powered vehicles". I said guess...maybe Rover read a little too much into that :-)

And I don't think anyone's feelings about overhead wires should be influenced by this: Car Catches on Trolley Wires and Flips Over (HD) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmuhKWtW5Yg)

Why would would we? We don't let more than 30,000 deaths from car crashes per year influence our decision on whether or not to build more roads.

Great video - but it only proves the point that the trolley wire is so thin and unnoticeable that someone driving the road drove right into it and didn't even see it.

Did the Heritage Hills Board formally approve supporting the streetcar going along Walker from 13th to 23rd?

I heard the Board met and rejected the idea.

Here is the deal. Larry Nichols has been entrusted by public officials to paticipate on many civic boards. In this capacity he is supposed to do what is in the best interest of the people of Oklahoma City, but in the case of the streecar he has instead opted to look out for the shareholder of Devon Energy by pushing an experimanetal (if not financially unreasonable) natural gas powered streetcar. He is our own version of 1940's GM, Firestone, and National City Lines, manipulating public mass transit - not to make it better, but to make his company more profitable. He has sold out the people of Main St OKC for his shareholders on Wall Street on this issue. He should be ashamed.

Kerry,

The problem with making these kinds of posts on such a visible thread being monitored by so many is that you justify Rover's strawman arguments to back up whatever LN wants. The rest of us are all making reasonable points. CNG is bad technology ATM and the wires are a major identifying element for the route which will disperse major redevelopment activity. LN may be reacting negatively toward all the buzz about the streetcar TOD vs. all other MAPS3 ED goals.

Nichols has good reason to be extremely proud of his legacy in OKC. He is our modern day Anton Classen, and he is more progressive than we admit. Most people just disagree with him respectfully on this one issue.

Btw you can't speak for the "sold out people" of OKC from Florida anymore than I can from Ohio.

Nichols has good reason to be extremely proud of his legacy in OKC. He is our modern day Anton Classen, and he is more progressive than we admit. Most people just disagree with him respectfully on this one issue.

That is an accurate summation of just about everyone who has chimed in on this topic I think.

I'm not worried. I think there is a great deal of good that is coming from all of this community input. Larry Nichols or otherwise.

And believe me, I have been thoroughly, personally examined and questioned for running around the country looking at streetcars, manufacturers, and meeting with people with varying perspectives on this wired versus wireless issue.

And it is out of respect for those who wish it so. There is nothing wrong with looking into and considering it.

BTW, if you haven't joined our Facebook page or twitter, please do so.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Oklahoma-City-Streetcar/203749819767937

and

twitter.com/OKCStreetcar

We are going to step up our postings as more volunteers are coming online with lots of great ideas and pics.

Remember, Larry Nichols insisted on a "white tablecloth" restaurant for the Myriad Gardens and now it sits empty. He is not omniscient. He has been a great benefactor for the community but he may sometimes be wrong. It's hard to be right about everything and sometimes preconceived notions lead us astray.

BTW, when I say "more volunteers", I mean more volunteer admins on all these accounts providing content, moderation, and insight.

Dallas Streetcar folks visited today. Fascinating how they have their own urban development blogs going full force down there that many of their volunteers are involved in.

Dallas Streetcar folks visited today. Fascinating how they have their own urban development blogs going full force down there that many of their volunteers are involved in.

Links? Key threads to follow?

Later... lol. I need a break. At Saints if anyone wants to stop by.

Some articles of interest on Transit Oriented Development:

"TOD guidelines include a policy stating that 20 percent of any housing developments would be affordable housing. MARTA also specifies that it prefers to sign a ground lease with developers rather than sell property.

"With a ground lease, we can use the money for operations. If we sell land, all the money goes toward our capital budget," says King, adding that MARTA has a budget mandate that requires it to split sales tax revenue 50/50 between operating expenses and capital improvements."

Railroad Passenger Rail Article - Transit-oriented development in Atlanta, Portland, Charlotte and Phoenix. Information For Rail Career Professionals From Progressive Railroading Magazine (http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/article/Transitoriented-development-in-Atlanta-Portland-Charlotte-and-Phoenix--36736)

Minneapolis managing TOD with their Planning Department. Why doesn't OKC have a TOD Manager in its Planning Department to plan for development and growth rather than reacting to it?

Railroad Passenger Rail Article - Transit-oriented development in Atlanta, Portland, Charlotte and Phoenix. Information For Rail Career Professionals From Progressive Railroading Magazine (http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/article/Transitoriented-development-in-Atlanta-Portland-Charlotte-and-Phoenix--36736)

Kerry,

The problem with making these kinds of posts on such a visible thread being monitored by so many is that you justify Rover's strawman arguments to back up whatever LN wants. The rest of us are all making reasonable points. CNG is bad technology ATM and the wires are a major identifying element for the route which will disperse major redevelopment activity. LN may be reacting negatively toward all the buzz about the streetcar TOD vs. all other MAPS3 ED goals.

So do you think LN's support of a CNG streetcar has nothing to do with his business interest? Is a CNG streetcar in the best interest of the people of OKC?

So do you think LN's support of a CNG streetcar has nothing to do with his business interest? Is a CNG streetcar in the best interest of the people of OKC?

More than judging his INTENT, it probably has to do with his PERSPECTIVE. I am sure he believes in the environmentally friendly aspects and prefers the clean lines of the streets without the overhead wires. It is this VIEW we can argue, but there is no reason to try to demonize and ascribe intent.

I think his view about the technology is wrong, but deserves to be considered. I also am not nostalgic about wires, but understand the framing, etc. argument. Either way should be acceptable. I should come down to cost efficiency: first cost, operating cost, maintenance cost, and life cost. THAT is what we should be discussing, along with the routes.

I think his view about the technology is wrong, but deserves to be considered. I also am not nostalgic about wires, but understand the framing, etc. argument. Either way should be acceptable. I should come down to cost efficiency: first cost, operating cost, maintenance cost, and life cost. THAT is what we should be discussing, along with the routes.

There are some issues with CNG: It would be far noisier than electric powered streetcar. Cars would have to be out of service to refuel. The fuel tank would take up space that could otherwise be used to increase passenger capacity. There is some risk to having a natural gas filled fuel tank, relative to electric power. Last, but not least, we would have to wait around while a prototype is created and tested and we would know nothing about safety or reliability. It's like buying the first car of a new model - how long does it take to go from concept to car.....and do you want to buy the first one off the assembly line anyway?

Our consultants have not yet been asked to report on propulsion systems but we know all about them. Several of us have ridden an electric/hybrid and one of our members went to Germany to investigate an induction propulsion system.

I think cost alone eliminates a 100% wireless system for the factors Rover listed. I am not a streetcar expert but some basic engineering prinicples apply. Fewer moving parts = increased reliability therefore electric propulsion would be preferred to internal combustion engines just about every time. Maintenance costs should be significantly less on electric motors and supporting systems as compared to ICE, generators, switchgear, traction motor switchgear, etc. I have been told from knowledgeble people the acquisition cost for conventional electric streetcars are significantly less than other types of propulsion - makes sense to me.

I think if any part of the line absolutely must be off wire some sort of capacitive or battery system for very short distances such as getting under the BNSF viaduct. There are proven systems in use today using capacitance and regenerative braking technology.

From what I have been able to learn from reading about other systems and vehicles, it seems like conventional electric is really the only way to go - especially if we want to maximize trackage and minimize costs.

Devon Energy CEO Larry Nichols objects to downtown streetcar system | News OK (http://newsok.com/devon-energy-ceo-larry-nichols-objects-to-downtown-streetcar-system/article/3864840?custom_click=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

Devon Energy CEO Larry Nichols objects to downtown streetcar system | News OK (http://newsok.com/devon-energy-ceo-larry-nichols-objects-to-downtown-streetcar-system/article/3864840?custom_click=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

Well, I can't read the article, but it seems that King Larry is taking this down another corridor. Perhaps we should come out against the Convention Center.

On the other hand, perhaps the headline is a bit more suggestive than the actual article. Who knows? I can't read anything but the headline. Is King Larry saying we should just bag a MAPS project that was approved by the voters, as the headline implies, or is the Oklahoman just trying to get some clicks with a salacious headline?

Well unfortunately for Larry Nichols, OKC voted for the system and we will get the system.

Welp, he is entitled to his opinion. And if people don't get noisy he might get his way.

Is there any chance this is an underhanded way to divert money to the convention center they can't afford? Have cities with street cars complained of this problem?

Welp, he is entitled to his opinion. And if people don't get noisy he might get his way.

Is there any chance this is an underhanded way to divert money to the convention center they can't afford? Have cities with street cars complained of this problem?

I hate to comment on the article, since I cannot read it, but if he is trying to undermine another MAPS project, a MAPS project whose subcommittee listened to and took into account his opposition to overhead wires, than he is a dirty dealer.

I do find it amusing that the Oklahoman has disabled comments for the article. Is that to protect Larry? Seriously, it's not a crime story; why disable comments on something that is extremely public in nature and affects public money and was voted on by the public? Why is a private individual afforded a comment-free zone on a public initiative that was voted for by the taxpayers? If the Oklahoman has an ounce of credibility, it will allow public commentary on this very public issue.

I know I'm on ignore from Steve, but perhaps he will explain why the readers of the Oklahoman are not allowed to comment on the article. Is the editor BFFs with Larry?

In a couple of days or whenever I can read this, I'll be curious to see if the streetcar subcommittee was allowed comment on the article. As it appears to me now, i have no idea.

Well, I can't read the article, but it seems that King Larry is taking this down another corridor. Perhaps we should come out against the Convention Center.

On the other hand, perhaps the headline is a bit more suggestive than the actual article. Who knows? I can't read anything but the headline. Is King Larry saying we should just bag a MAPS project that was approved by the voters, as the headline implies, or is the Oklahoman just trying to get some clicks with a salacious headline?



I hate to comment on the article, since I cannot read it, but if he is trying to undermine another MAPS project, a MAPS project whose subcommittee listened to and took into account his opposition to overhead wires, than he is a dirty dealer.

I do find it amusing that the Oklahoman has disabled comments for the article. Is that to protect Larry? Seriously, it's not a crime story; why disable comments on something that is extremely public in nature and affects public money and was voted on by the public? Why is a private individual afforded a comment-free zone on a public initiative that was voted for by the taxpayers? If the Oklahoman has an ounce of credibility, it will allow public commentary on this very public issue.

I know I'm on ignore from Steve, but perhaps he will explain why the readers of the Oklahoman are not allowed to comment on the article. Is the editor BFFs with Larry?

In a couple of days or whenever I can read this, I'll be curious to see if the streetcar subcommittee was allowed comment on the article. As it appears to me now, i have no idea.

Turns out the headline is an accurate summary. This definitely presents the city leadership a dilemma. Who are they going to respond to? The citizens of Oklahoma City who voted for this project or a small group of people who think they know better than the voters? Is this going to be another moment that a grassroots effort challenges "the way it has always been done" in OKC?

I won't post the entire story for obvious reasons but here are a couple of Nichols' comments.


The streetcars are powered by an overhead wiring system known as catenary wires that are held up by cantilevered poles that extend over the street. It's those wires that spurred Nichols' recent objections.

“I don't feel very good about them at all,” Nichols said when suggested routes were discussed at last week's Oklahoma City Urban Renewal meeting. “When you say streetcar, it depends on what kind of streetcar. If you're talking about these systems you see in older cities with overhead wires, I think that will make our city very ugly … If it involves cantilevered wires, there will be substantial opposition.”


Nichols, executive chairman of Devon Energy Corp. and chairman of the Urban Renewal Authority, attempted to strip out a route recommendation that was included in a MidTown Urban Renewal Plan.
Fellow Commissioner Jim Tolbert, who also owns property in Bricktown and the Central Business District, countered that the routes recommended in the MidTown plan are more focused on stimulating economic development.

“We're saying let's put it in areas where it will stimulate development,” Tolbert said. “That's a significant role for us to play. We're entering the debate with a suggestion.”

Nichols responded that some property owners along the eventual streetcar route may not want the tracks opposite their developments.

“Having the wrong sort of streetcar will not enhance development, it will impede it,” Nichols said. “We all have the same goal. But a noisy, ugly streetcar may be a detriment to some of these areas rather than an enhancement.”

Good grief.

Good grief.

My reaction as well, but I think maybe for different reasons.

My reaction as well, but I think maybe for different reasons.

So was anyone from the streetcar subcommittee quoted in the piece? If so, who? And by the way, I've heard of many options discussed besides wires, and I've even heard of a hybrid solution that involves wires in parts, and no wires in others. Does the article authoritatively describe the streetcar as being supported by overhead wires? If so, that would be an oversimplification / blunder. That decision has not yet been made and many options are on the table. Were the options presented?

As for Larry Nichols, it sucks when people end up being who you thought they were. In an interesting twist, maybe he will now join forces with Ed Shadid and Pete White. Perhaps Larry will be bankrolling Ed Shadid's mayoral campaign.

So was anyone from the streetcar subcommittee quoted in the piece? If so, who? And by the way, I've heard of many options discussed besides wires, and I've even heard of a hybrid solution that involves wires in parts, and no wires in others. Does the article authoritatively describe the streetcar as being supported by overhead wires? If so, that would be an oversimplification / blunder. That decision has not yet been made and many options are on the table. Were the options presented?

I'm not going to post any more of the article so you can read it yourself to find out when it becomes completely available.

Noisy? Ding ding? The noise coming from the construction of the Devon Tower was deafening at times. Car horns and bus engines are far noisier than the streetcar. Perhaps Larry needs to visit a city that actually has streetcars.

The article quotes Rick Cain who stated alternate power systems are available but they are unproven technology. Jane Jenkins was the only subcommittee member interviewed, but in her capacity as President of Downtown OKC. She said someone on Automobile Alley had objected to overhead wires.

Seems like wires and noise are Nichols' issues. I push back again with overhead wires being in use in truly iconic cities such as Rome, Paris, and Berlin. Noise? That is just a purposely inaccurate statement designed to sway opinion.

Modern catenary systems integrate into the streetscape extremely well. Mayor Cornett was correct in stating some education is needed - either to show those objecting to overhead wires what modern systems look like, or educating the general public about them and the cost tradeoffs associated with using unproven more expensive technology.

Noisy? Ding ding? The noise coming from the construction of the Devon Tower was deafening at times. Car horns and bus engines are far noisier than the streetcar. Perhaps Larry needs to visit a city that actually has streetcars.

He'll see it up close from an airtight limo. Not gonna happen. He thinks cities should be perfectly manicured lawns and plantings and QUIET. Strange. "Quiet" is not a goal most have for a lively, bustling city, but remember, his idea of urban utopia is Houston.

The article quotes Rick Cain who stated alternate power systems are available but they are unproven technology. Jane Jenkins was the only subcommittee member interviewed, but in her capacity as President of Downtown OKC. She said someone on Automobile Alley had objected to overhead wires.

Seems like wires and noise are Nichols issues. I push back again with overhead wires being in use in truly iconic cities such as Rome, Paris, and Berlin. Modern catenary systems integrate into the streetscape extremely well. Mayor Cornett was correct in stating some education is needed - either to show those objecting to overhead wires what modern systems look like, or educating the general public about them and the cost tradeoffs associated with using unproven more expensive technology.

That is disappointing. It's unfortunate that some of the real knowledgeable folks on the subcommittee about different streetcar technologies weren't consulted for the article. As for Rick Cain, is he an expert on streetcar technologies?

If there isn't mass mobilization and a salvaging of MAPS this streetcar doesn't happen and all that DOES actually happen is a convention center and some senior centers in abandoned suburban strip malls...or wherever the bids decide.

MAPS as a concept will be dead and OKC will go the way of Tulsa, but with more skyscrapers, because it looks like more people are willing to make that political calculation than we thought. As unthinkable as it is, there is no accord with the voters. The streetcar was the only big project over 50% support.

So we'll have to see how this goes, but I hope OKC is ready for a fight. This latest piece from Steve is a hit piece. I have defended Lackmeyer and his journalism for years and years, and ive been unflappable in that defense., but that's what this - it's a hit piece to win some more favor from Larry Nichols. I thought he was an honorable journalist.

If there isn't mass mobilization and a salvaging of MAPS this streetcar doesn't happen and all that DOES actually happen is a convention center and some senior centers in abandoned suburban strip malls...or wherever the bids decide.

MAPS as a concept will be dead and OKC will go the way of Tulsa, but with more skyscrapers, because it looks like more people are willing to make that political calculation than we thought. As unthinkable as it is, there is no accord with the voters. The streetcar was the only big project over 50% support.

So we'll have to see how this goes, but I hope OKC is ready for a fight. This latest piece from Steve is a hit piece. I have defended Lackmeyer and his journalism for years and years, and ive been unflappable in that defense., but that's what this - it's a hit piece to win some more favor from Larry Nichols. I thought he was an honorable journalist.

Did Steve Lackmeyer do a paid book project for Devon / Larry Nichols? For some reason, I thought he did. If he has been personally paid by the person he is reporting on, that would at least merit a northern tilted eyebrow.

I'm not sure I would characterize this as a "hit," but it's weird the Oklahoman doesn't allow comments after it. Also, if it's not a hit, it seems to not be very thorough about the alternatives to overhead wires, and it seems not much if any effort was made by the writer to reach out to more knowledgeable sources on the subcommittee who could speak to / answer some of Larry's concerns, for example, about noise. How would Jane Jenkins be able to answer that?

It will be interesting to see how much of a sock puppet this city is to Larry Nichols. Can one man decide for everyone else? That seems to be the question.

I like Ed Shadid, I really do. I don't like his saying one thing in a campaign and doing another as a councilman.

With apologies to those who don't have high-speed Internet, here is a high-resolution scan of an Ed Shadid mailer sent to my home in the last election.

Please notice what I boxed in red about MAPS 3. I'm sure glad I keep these things.

Also notice what he says about Swinton on that topic.


http://i.imgur.com/10wScU6.jpg

This is extremely disappointing. I often see Mr. Nichols at Flint; next time, I'll politely interrupt his dinner to tell him to stop undermining the will of the voters of OKC. I will be proud to work against any elected official who follows him down this terrible path. If the city follows his advice, I won't support another MAPS program.

I sincerely hope Dr Shadid keeps that promise.

This is extremely disappointing. I often see Mr. Nichols at Flint; next time, I'll politely interrupt his dinner to tell him to stop undermining the will of the voters of OKC. I will be proud to work against any elected official who follows him down this terrible path. If the city follows his advice, I won't support another MAPS program.

MAPS has already become a corrupt sham for THIS to be the only project in serious hot water when this has been the only above board, well planned project. It's time to really examine what MAPS has become. This is less like our first MAPS which was successful for tackling low hanging fruit, and more like Detroit's long list of badly, embarrassingly planned pet projects, look how that turned out.

A park we don't need anymore separated from becoming a comprehensive green span by a convention center we didn't want connected by a streetcar we won't get. There's yer stinkin MAPS right there.

This is extremely disappointing. I often see Mr. Nichols at Flint; next time, I'll politely interrupt his dinner to tell him to stop undermining the will of the voters of OKC. I will be proud to work against any elected official who follows him down this terrible path. If the city follows his advice, I won't support another MAPS program.

Larry Nichols would be responsible for splitting this city in two and undermining MAPS for a generation. What an arrogant SOB.

I think Mayor Cornett is right and education is necessary. For those of us interested, we've made it a point to learn all we can; we've seen streetcars in operation and ridden them. If your only exposure is the San Francisco cable car or cities that have a network of overhead wires, then incorrect assumptions could be made. We spent a huge amount of time and energy trying to educate people about the route, but perhaps we need people to understand what the modern streetcar is like to ride, how it sounds and what different propulsion systems look like.

Forget MAPS IV. I didn't vote for MAPS III to watch my streetcar disappear.

I want everyone reading this thread to keep in mind that this is the first time I have ever strayed from defending Lackmeyer on everything. I truly have been unflappable in my defense of him until now.

This is significant. This is the worst journalism he has ever done, much more typical than the usual news coverage out of the Dark Tower. I am stunned. Lackmeyer is more the story here than Nichols is, who I doubt said all of this in a specific streetcar discussion or interview aside from some other function.

That may be accurate Spartan. After re-reading the article, it does seem pieced together from a few events and not a cohesive discussion about the streetcar.

I haven't read the article, but if its in the Op-Ed section I'm okay with it.

But if its in the business section, then i agree its a puff piece.

Maybe this is a trial balloon to see if anyone will really get outraged at the dismantling of specific MAPs projects, making it more of a pool of grab-all $$ for whoever has the most pull for whatever pet project.

None of this overhead wire or noise stuff is new... Why is Nichols raising these issues now?

If I was a conspiracy theorist I'd point out that the convention center is nearing a critical point, especially in terms of land acquisition. We all know that project is not going to happen on that site for what has been budgeted; and that's not even including the huge un-budgeted chunk for the cc hotel. We also know that Nichols used his influence to move the cc up in the MAPS schedule and absolutely wants it done and wants it done on that specific site and ASAP.

So, where is all this extra money going to come from? How about a noisy, unsightly streetcar that will do nothing to spur economic development? And how about rallying businesses along the proposed route to say they don't want it either?

My radar is going off. What is it that we don't know? Could the convention center project be hitting an iceberg? This seems like an overt sideshow to a bigger story. Instead of freelancing opinions about another MAPS project, a project for which he doesn't serve on the subcommittee, shouldn't Nichols be focusing on the project for which he shares a stake as subcommittee member?

Anything new on the convention center?

None of this overhead wire or noise stuff is new... Why is Nichols raising these issues now?

If I was a conspiracy theorist I'd point out that the convention center is nearing a critical point, especially in terms of land acquisition. We all know that project is not going to happen on that site for what has been budgeted; and that's not even including the huge un-budgeted chunk for the cc hotel. We also know that Nichols used his influence to move the cc up in the MAPS schedule and absolutely wants it done and wants it done on that specific site and ASAP.

So, where is all this extra money going to come from? How about a noisy, unsightly streetcar that will do nothing to spur economic development? And how about rallying businesses along the proposed route to say they don't want it either?

You and I think alike!!! You beat me by a minute!

They are deep into negotiations for acquiring the property for the convention center and thus have a good idea of what they will have to pay; at least a range.

They have also just now seemed to settle on a layout which required a big chunk to be built underground.

No way can that project happen on that site in the manner they want to build it for anywhere near the budgeted amount.

Public questions about Oklahoma City streetcar system can be viewed online | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/3864839)

They are deep into negotiations for acquiring the property for the convention center and thus have a good idea of what they will have to pay; at least a range.

They have also just now seemed to settle on a layout which required a big chunk to be built underground.

No way can that project happen on that site in the manner they want to build it for anywhere near the budgeted amount.

We've all assumed this from day one. I know you have an extensive background in major real estate / development. Have we heard from authoritative insiders that things are going wacky over budget, or are we just assuming that is the case at this point?

None of this overhead wire or noise stuff is new... Why is Nichols raising these issues now?

If I was a conspiracy theorist I'd point out that the convention center is nearing a critical point, especially in terms of land acquisition. We all know that project is not going to happen on that site for what has been budgeted; and that's not even including the huge un-budgeted chunk for the cc hotel. We also know that Nichols used his influence to move the cc up in the MAPS schedule and absolutely wants it done and wants it done on that specific site and ASAP.

So, where is all this extra money going to come from? How about a noisy, unsightly streetcar that will do nothing to spur economic development? And how about rallying businesses along the proposed route to say they don't want it either?

Wow. This is my suspicion too, but I didn't want to admit it publicly. That Pete is expressing this really lends credibility...

I'm not saying this is what Nichols is doing but we know he really, really wants the convention center and we also know that project is going to need extra funding; maybe a lot more.

So, it's just a coincidence as they are deep into negotiations to acquire the very expensive, preferred property for this project that he suddenly comes out in the press TWICE in just a few days against one of the biggest ticket items in MAPS? And does it although the plan of action has been pretty public for quite some time??

We know he has already used his ample influence to move the cc up in the schedule.

I'm not saying this is what Nichols is doing but we know he really, really wants the convention center and we also know that project is going to need extra funding; maybe a lot more.

So, it's just a coincidence as they are deep into negotiations to acquire the very expensive, preferred property for this project that he suddenly comes out in the press TWICE in just a few days against one of the biggest ticket items in MAPS? And does it although the plan of action has been pretty public for quite some time??

We know he has already used his ample influence to move the cc up in the schedule.

Rover said he didn't (kidding).

So when is the big expose on the convention center going to hit? Instead of pieces complaining about cue cards and wires on the streetcar, how about something with substance about the real expected budget of the MAPS albatross that is the convention center?

I'm not saying this is what Nichols is doing but we know he really, really wants the convention center and we also know that project is going to need extra funding; maybe a lot more.

So, it's just a coincidence as they are deep into negotiations to acquire the very expensive, preferred property for this project that he suddenly comes out in the press TWICE in just a few days against one of the biggest ticket items in MAPS? And does it although the plan of action has been pretty public for quite some time??

We know he has already used his ample influence to move the cc up in the schedule.

...at the direct expense of the streetcar in the schedule.

Keep in mind this streetcar project has been bullied to no end. I've been critical of some streetcar project aspects, and I'm not beholden to it, it's just the project that my city planning understanding and pedigree gives me the highest hopes for, so it's the one I've watched closest.

Cities are built around transit, not convention centers. The engineers and oilmen who call the shots too often don't get that, so this project has been screwed over too much, and the collateral damage is going to be OKC's urban future. We have a nice city developing at a great pace right now, but I really, really want to see OKC become the next "it city."