Questions to Ponder as Streetcar Routes are Unveiled | OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2013/06/26/questions-to-ponder-as-streetcar-routes-are-unveiled/)

To couplet or not to couplet, that is the question.

not sure how a couplet has anything to do with using more or less track (thus changing the distance of the route)

The next MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee Meeting is next Wed, June 26th, at 3:30 PM, 420 Main Street, 10th floor Conference Room.

I'd like to say, this next meeting is going to be very important as now we have a full technical assessment by experts. For the first time, route analysis has included every conceivable factor. Expect to see 2 - 4 main spine alternates, 3 - 4 Midtown service alternates, 1 - 2 Bricktown alternates, and a plan to service MAPS 3 Park and Convention Center as they come online in the MAPS 3 timeline.

Also expect a great deal of discussion, input, and debate. And also expect significant resistance from those who are starting to realize this project is actually becoming a reality.

Earlier answer about the meeting/routes from a few pages back. No, I don't believe route maps are avaible until the presentation today.

not sure how a couplet has anything to do with using more or less track (thus changing the distance of the route)

I can see a non-couplet reducing track length only if they ran on a single track for a bit, but that's highly unlikely and creates too many conflict points for streetcars themselves. The additional block length to make the circle would reduce the overall length minimally...

I got no dog in the couplet argument, but don't almost all of the streetcars coming online include couplets in at least part of the routes? It seems you design the route that works best, and if areas call for a couplet, you use them there. It would seem with no in-depth knowledge on the subject that if you have some couplets you broaden the opportunities for people to get on board, depending on their location, which would not only increase potential ridership but also expand potential for transit-oriented-development along the route.

"Most" proposed modern streetcar systems are proposed with couplets. This is even apparently catching on in Europe, so I am told.

This is a phenomenal report about what other cities are doing.

http://www.streetcarcoalition.org/pdf/2013_Summit_Book_Print.pdf

I'm just now wading into this discussion, but it does seem like a huge wasted opportunity to not run the streetcar to the OUHSC. Why would we not do that?

I'm just now wading into this discussion, but it does seem like a huge wasted opportunity to not run the streetcar to the OUHSC. Why would we not do that?

first ? is where would you run the streetcar too? (serious ? OUHSC is a very big area) second how much after 5 and weekend ridership would this route produce?

third how much day time traffic would this produce??

I think the HSC would be a terrific second phase. But in my opinion, it would be a waste of track miles to use our starter system to connect it. The starter system needs to cover as many uses as it possibly can. It would take quite a bit of track miles to get in and around the HSC when we could focus on connecting residential, entertainment, and businesses.

The HSC is mostly desolate anytime after 5pm. But it should be a great expansion opportunity when it comes time to expand the system. We'll see what the engineers and consultants have discovered, they know quite a bit more than I do, though.

I'm just now wading into this discussion, but it does seem like a huge wasted opportunity to not run the streetcar to the OUHSC. Why would we not do that?

I'm the perfect target for a streetcar to the HSC. I live in Deep Deuce and I work at the HSC. I usually drive to work. I drive in at about 8 and I leave about 5. So I would ride it twice a day. I sometimes work weekends, but the HSC employee population falls off dramatically on weekends, as only hospital personnel work. There are no students and clinics are closed. The working population is even lower in the evening, and because most nurses are female, I suspect a lot of them would be reluctant to ride a mostly empty streetcar at night. No one on campus has a lot of time for lunch so there wouldnt be a big lunch population either. The majority of our patients do not live downtown. The only reason they currently come from downtown is because our crazy bus routes drag them to the bus transfer center. When we (hopefully) go to a grid system, there will be virtually no patient traffic from downtown. Many of the families of patients either stay in the room with the patient or at the Ronald McDonald House. There's soon going to be a hotel on campus. There are no restaurants or amenities in the area to attract visitors. So, you'd have a system with reasonably high ridership twice a day on weekdays. To me, that type of ridership begs for a few express buses a day.

A downtown route accommodates residents, employees and visitors. Because downtown is an all-day, late evening , 7 day a week destination with lots of jobs, housing and amenities (and increasing exponentially as we speak), it it a better fit for a streetcar route, IMO.

first ? is where would you run the streetcar too? (serious ? OUHSC is a very big area) second how much after 5 and weekend ridership would this route produce?

third how much day time traffic would this produce??

1) Well, just off the top of my head, I'd say you run it up Lincoln to 10th St where it would turn east and go to Phillips. At Phillips, it would turn north and go to 13th St where it would then turn back west and return to Lincoln. That seems like it would be a simple path that would hit between many of the most traveled buildings (cancer center, OU Physicians, Children's, Professional building, Presbyterian). Where do you think it should run?

2) As for evening and weekend ridership, I don't really know. I'd guess it wouldn't be very much at all. But what if it was an option, in lieu of driving, for workers or visitors to go downtown after work, leaving their cars in the campus garages for like a Thunder game or concert and then riding it back and leaving from work? This is probably the strongest factor against running it to this area if I had to wager on it though.

3) I'm not sure, but I think it would have a fair bit. I'd sure use it to get downtown for some lunch or to conduct business if it was an option available instead of getting in my car. I'm sure there are many others that would do the same. I think it would certainly build traffic as it went on and people familiarized themselves with it.

I'm the perfect target for a streetcar to the HSC. I live in Deep Deuce and I work at the HSC. I usually drive to work. I drive in at about 8 and I leave about 5. So I would ride it twice a day. I sometimes work weekends, but the HSC employee population falls off dramatically on weekends, as only hospital personnel work. There are no students and clinics are closed. The working population is even lower in the evening, and because most nurses are female, I suspect a lot of them would be reluctant to ride a mostly empty streetcar at night. No one on campus has a lot of time for lunch so there wouldnt be a big lunch population either. The majority of our patients do not live downtown. The only reason they currently come from downtown is because our crazy bus routes drag them to the bus transfer center. When we (hopefully) go to a grid system, there will be virtually no patient traffic from downtown. Many of the families of patients either stay in the room with the patient or at the Ronald McDonald House. There's soon going to be a hotel on campus. There are no restaurants or amenities in the area to attract visitors. So, you'd have a system with reasonably high ridership twice a day on weekdays. To me, that type of ridership begs for a few express buses a day.

A downtown route accommodates residents, employees and visitors. Because downtown is an all-day, late evening , 7 day a week destination with lots of jobs, housing and amenities (and increasing exponentially as we speak), it it a better fit for a streetcar route, IMO.

Look, I agree with most of what you said here. And if it's between here and downtown, I vote for downtown. But if we can extend it to the HSC, I think that's a smart thing to do too.

One of the problems OKC is going to have is that our major employment centers (HSC, Capitol, Tinker) are all built around the automobile so they don't have the concentration to serve them with just one stop. It takes a mile of track and 3 stops just to serve HSC.

One of the problems OKC is going to have is that our major employment centers (HSC, Capitol, Tinker) are all built around the automobile so they don't have the concentration to serve them with just one stop. It takes a mile of track and 3 stops just to serve HSC.

It's a shame there's not a way to service the HSC (and maybe the capitol) just during their business hours, for now.

It's a shame there's not a way to service the HSC (and maybe the capitol) just during their business hours, for now.

Just have a transfer off the streetcar to a bus over to the HSC with no additional fare and timed to coordinate with the streetcar. Run the bus routes heavier in the morn and afternoon and occasionally on the weekend. The bus can route through the HSC past the new Embassy Suites and the Toby Kieth facility.

Here are the four proposed streetcar routes presented today by the City's consultant:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/route1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/route2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/route3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/route4.jpg

I believe this was the last route proposed by the citizen's committee (please correct me if I'm wrong):

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar1.jpg

I like the last 2 options, but it still seems like a lot of wasted track with the couplet feature.

I can already hear the deep deuce residents complaining about the options...

The routes manage to avoid Deep Deuce and Film Row. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I can see leaving the PHF and OUHSC for a second phase, but how do you leave out those other two areas in a phase 1 devoted to downtown?

Notice the consultants left many "Major Destinations" in Deep Deuce, as it is by far the biggest concentration of downtown residents and that is not depicted in the slightest.

My beef is that many of us believe that MAPS is a honor pact with the public for those in power to do the things they promised to do with the money. Break that pact and city officials will need to start funding projects individually. That might not be a bad thing. Imagine a future ballot:

1) NFL Stadium: .35% sales tax
2) Commuter rail down the I-35 and I-40 corridors: .55% sales tax
3) An expansion of the bricktown canal: .25% sales tax

etc..

Let each project stand or fall on its own. I'd have much more confidence in that if we voted for the commuter rail, it wouldn't be scrapped in favor of a dome on a football stadium built on spec.

I agree completely. Not only would it "not be a bad thing", it would be the right thing...the legal thing..the constitutional thing. And according to the Mayor and the Mayor's office, that is exactly what we were going to see on the Ballot.

David Holt Reports on Structure of a MAPS 3 Ballot | OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/20/david-holt/)

"…Should the Mayor and Council move forward with a MAPS 3 proposal, the process will certainly conform to the operative law…" -- David Holt, chief of staff to Mayor Mick Cornett

Oklahoma City MAPS out big plans | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-maps-out-big-plans/article/3402004)

“... Each of these projects is going to have to stand on its own. ... ". -- Mayor* Mick Cornett

But it didn't happen. Why?
Again, according to Mr. Holt
David Holt Reports on Structure of a MAPS 3 Ballot | OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/20/david-holt/)

"…It would be our intention to stay close to the basic model the voters have shown themselves to be comfortable with."

and Mayor Cornett:
Oklahoma City Council to vote on MAPS ballot | News OK (http://newsok.com/council-to-vote-on-maps-ballot/article/3404790)

Mayor Mick Cornett, who has spearheaded the MAPS 3 initiative, said an all-or-nothing approach for MAPS 3 was chosen because it has worked with voters in the past. "This is the process they are going to be comfortable with,”

Notice, no more mention of it being legal or not. Then there is the whole "comfortable" thing. As if voters aren't also used to seeing like-kind, individual propositions listed on the ballot. Just like we do on General Obligation Bond Issues. If they can lump all of the MAPS 3 projects under a vague "capital improvements" label, why can't they do the same on bond issues? Aren't most if not all bond projects "capital improvements"?

As far as the contention that it was due to recent changes in law, it wasn't. What did happen was the State Supreme Court reaffirmed and upheld the anti-logrolling provision in the State Constitution. Logrolling is prohibited by the State Constitution and has been for some time. Also, some have suggested that it was legal to logroll it on the original MAPS, but not now. Again, untrue. According to the City's legal council, the original MAPS ballot was probably illegal too, the issue was that no one challenged it in court.

AS FAR AS THE PROPOSED ROUTES GO:

None of the above

I'm just a fan of Zeta. Reason being, it hits Hudson & 4th St, practically a direct tie in with the city bus system. We need to have both of those working with each other to coexist. It is also the only route that really wraps around Midtown/St. Anthony's area and also the only system that gets you two blocks closer west to the Film Row area. Deep Deuce residents can walk a couple of blocks just like Heritage Hills residents can walk a couple of blocks. It's just not going to service everyone and it will eventually be expanded outward with additional phases.

Those 4 plans suck. That is all I have to say about that.

Sid - I had to dig and follow links in your post to get to this, but everyone should read it so I am not going to post any snippets of it. OKC better get this streetcar right or we can start turning the lights off.

Letter from a millennial: We're not going to buy your house - Baltimore Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/blog/real-estate/2013/06/letter-from-a-millennial-were-not.html)

Kansas City's streetcar was mocking us on their Twitter account. They see these plans for the disappointments they are.

We'll folks, I'd say attend the upcomming public meetings and express your opinions. I had the meeting videotaped and will have an audio recording up later after Jon masters it.

I agree with many of your sentiments.

I like the last 2 options, but it still seems like a lot of wasted track with the couplet feature.

I can already hear the deep deuce residents complaining about the options...

How is it wasted track?

These routes defeat the purpose of a couplet - to create corridors of transit. None of these will accomplish that.

I'm so grateful for the work of the subcommittee thus far and I fear they've got a really difficult decision ahead of them.

What would your route be?

We'll folks, I'd say attend the upcomming public meetings and express your opinions. I had the meeting videotaped and will have an audio recording up later after Jon masters it.

I agree with many of your sentiments.

Id love to do so but as always....none of these meetings mesh with my work schedule 12-8. Do a morning meeting and its a lock!

Ok!

These route options are depressing

Yes, and here is the docket: SIRE Public Access (http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/meeting.aspx?cabinet=published_meetings&docid=52159)

Thanks a lot! I was able to make it this afternoon. I was a bit more excited about the idea of a streetcar than the routes presented though. All seemed to zigzag too much for my taste, and the "Reverse LPA" seemed to be the only one out of the four presented that could possibly make any sense to someone learning the system. And what did LPA stand for anyway?

LPA = locally preferred alternative. From the federal AA (alternative analysis) process

6 miles is bigger than our system will be. Phase 1 will be 4.5 max

What do you think about Automobile Alley? Served or not served?

The Walker alignment will be much cheaper than most of the alignements proposed by Jacobs today. I'd guess you could get very close to 6. It's what I'd ask the council to consider if they want a really useful system.

Good luck getting that past HH

At this point I still like double tracked: Walnut around NE 4th <=> Reno <=> Robinson <=> 11th. Possibly with loops around the last blocks on both ends for easier turning and to make the advertised 6 miles of track, more likely at St Anthony's end. Though without the loops it could cross over Classen and maybe even Western (via W Park Pl) and keep that from being a pedestrian barrier

This connects well into the following zones: Deep Deuce, Bricktown, Future Hub, Chesapeake Arena/Myrad Gardens/Convention Center, CBD/Underground, Memorial and develop-able space, Automobile Ally and develop-able space, St Anthony's Hospital and develop-able space

With less streets it runs on, it is easier to remember what streets stops are at and you can track back the way you came, it doesn't have half the turns several of the consultants propose, it maximizes number of locations that are walkable to both stops you enter and exit transit from, hits both the densest parts we have and goes along places that can develop densely and I also like not trying to shoe horn it onto EK Gaylord to hedge bet that there is the political will to narrow it.

Another ? Sid how is the reverse lpa not legible

How is it wasted track?


Wasted in the sense that I expected more regions to be covered.

OUHSC and deep deuce seem to be left out for no good reason IMO.

Sid, I would like to see you propose this route at the next streetcar subcommittee/citizens advisory/city council meeting.

What about two routes, not one? The east-west route is the easier of the two: a Sheridan-Reno couplet between Bricktown and Film Row. The north-south does present a more of a problem. On one hand, you want to connect Midtown, on the other, AA would be perfect. That one is tough. Maybe split the difference and go Hudson-Robinson?

The Red line always goes east-west and the blue line always goes north south.

Wasted in the sense that I expected more regions to be covered.

OUHSC and deep deuce seem to be left out for no good reason IMO.

Which is more bizarre in that and the CBD are really the only two places sure to have the kind of density for mass transit and would help drive further density in near them, with Bricktown the next most likely near term.

Wasted in the sense that I expected more regions to be covered.

OUHSC and deep deuce seem to be left out for no good reason IMO.

Couplets and double track use the same mileage

Couplets and double track use the same mileage
I would expect the cost-per-mile to be less for double track.

I would expect the cost-per-mile to be less for double track.

Lots of time it is more because you can't move utilities to one side of the street or the other

What about two routes, not one? The east-west route is the easier of the two: a Sheridan-Reno couplet between Bricktown and Film Row. The north-south does present a more of a problem. On one hand, you want to connect Midtown, on the other, AA would be perfect. That one is tough. Maybe split the difference and go Hudson-Robinson?

1000 ft couplets should not be a last resort, not the entire system, they really reduce how many buildings are in the area people traditionally are willing to walk dramatically, especially if people are having to do this trough out the entire system.

I could see an east-west route on Sheridan, making Reno a couplet with that seems like a pretty bad downgrade. The Hudson-Robinson couplet ends up serving neither area well, if our bus system should show us one thing, it is that serving all areas poorly is worse than picking an area you can do well and keeping to that.

1000 ft couplets should not be a last resort, not the entire system, they really reduce how many buildings are in the area people traditionally are willing to walk dramatically, especially if people are having to do this trough out the entire system.

I could see an east-west route on Sheridan, making Reno a couplet with that seems like a pretty bad downgrade. The Hudson-Robinson couplet ends up serving neither area well, if our bus system should show us one thing, it is that serving all areas poorly is worse than picking an area you can do well and keeping to that.

Sure. I think this illustrates the point that there really is no "best" answer, unfortunately.

Just now seeing this exchange and am sending a PM to both Steve and Boulder.

I must say I'm disappointed by the routes as well. Kind of a bummer. Of the choices, the LPA is the best, and would actually achieve 90% of the goals of the line. It's close enough for Deep Deuce residents to use and it connects Bricktown and Midtown. It's actually not far off from what was recommended by the subcommittee, excluding the Deep Deuce spur of course.

As for Sid's suggestion, I do find it interesting, but I think Heritage Hills would put up a big fight and I'm not sure putting a public transit line through one of OKC's most high-income neighborhoods is the direction we want to go, in terms of ridership and politics. It seems to send the wrong message.

One more thing: as for Kansas City mocking OKC through tweets, that seems incredibly juvenile. Their streetcar solution is not the world's best by any means. They're not even connecting Westport and the Plaza, the two best destinations for transit. Their solution -- at least last time I looked at it -- pretty much sucks. Maybe that's why they're acting like such jerks.

I know people in OKC were helpful to KC folks pursuing a streetcar. I'm glad we don't have people here who would act that way.

I did engage in texting. It was with Marion Hutchison, and he can attest to that.

I can confirm that I exchanged several texts with Steve today between 3:20 and 4:45 pm. I initiated the texts not knowing Steve was as the meeting. I am in Colorado on vacation and was sending Steve some comments about the recent articles he has written about the streetcar project.

Thanks Hutch. And btw: Hutch is quite critical of my coverage and questions. He was being blunt and honest in this thoughts. I look forward to visiting with him, and we'll be going through all this. He was not at all insulting in our texting. No matter what, I'll always have a great deal of respect for you Hutch.

And Sid, you did not see me giggling. At most, I gave a surprised "oh hell, no they didn't" look. But that's it. I stayed very serious at this meeting and paid careful attention to what the consultants and committee was saying.

I deleted a couple of posts that were too personal.

This is an extremely important issue and let's please all find a way to discuss and participate in the decision-making process while being respectful to each other.

Thanks Pete.

In all sincerity... my compliments to the transit committee and the consultants for a really in-depth discussion today.... lots of tough choices ahead. I'm going to resume my self-imposed non-participation in discussions on this site.
Good night.

Who is this person from Kansas City and what are his/her credentials? I'm mystified that someone from a city without an existing streetcar line should have enough street cred to make comments that are given any weight. That is unless said person is a well-respected authority in the field. I just wasn't aware of any in Kansas City.

What do you think about Automobile Alley? Served or not served?

Needs to be served.

Oklahoma City Streetcar: Prepare for a Battle | OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2013/06/23/oklahoma-city-streetcar-prepare-for-a-battle/)

Recent addition made by Steve to the end of this article:
UPDATE: Ed Shadid insists he’s not against the concept of a streetcar system, but opposes how it’s being done. “This streetcar, this process, this route,” he says of his concern. He also he says he has no interest in diverting the tax to other projects. Before making any change, he says, it should be taken back to a vote of the people. He notes there was no vote of the people for a streetcar or any other project – that the ballot was an effort to get around laws prohibiting log-rolling of projects.

One question: Broadway is a good route but the street itself seems very congested (in the Central Business District, not Automobile Alley). Am I imagining this? It seems to a novice like myself that it would slow down the streetcar. I've sat in many traffic jams there.