Steve reported on a new garage mixed use development That consits of 20% or less priviate land and 80%+ city owned land (currently leased to tr same guy for parking)


Several on here pointed out that it won't happens because it interfere with a rail spur for the future hub and line to mwcand the ne side.

Steve strongly disagreed.


Today at council 5 of the 9 said the plan has no chance as reported in the paper

Disagreeing with whether this project will happen or not? I did no such thing. I disagreed with Jeff stating that the land was all owned by the city and that Karchmer had no say in the matter. I also challenged Jeff on whether the rail issue was the top reason for rejecting the site for a convention center.
Bouldersooner, you have insulted me, lied about what I say and questioned my integrity.
I dared, once again, to introduce information that contradicted what is being provided by anonymous folks like yourself on this site.
OKC Talk members - don't take the word of people like Bouldersooner when it comes to quoting what I have or have not done or said. Please investigate things on your own, be free thinkers, and take in as much information from as many different sources as you can on issues you care about.
This will be my last post.

You disagreed that a rail spur would stop this project. And you reported on a project that 1. Couldn't finically happen with out the sale of parking spaces and 2. Couldn't happen because of transit concerns.

The city council showed #2 was true today. And said the project was "very early on". And that the paper jumped the story.

Those are not my words. People can watch the council meeting starting at the hour and 30 min mark

Don't think I have lied about what you said (although you did say this was all about HSR when it clearly was not)

And I didn't question your integers. I used and/or you jumped the gun. Which you clearly did.

3rd your innuendo in this thread with "do I have permission". Speaks for it self and frankly is below the high level that we all have come to expect from you with your mostly GREAT reporting over the years

....I also challenged Jeff on whether the rail issue was the top reason for rejecting the site for a convention center.

Sometimes the First Draft of History can get refined. Here are all the relevant parts of the Populous/GSB final Oklahoma City New Convention Center Site Analysis Report from June 2011 (http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/conventioncenter.pdf) about why the North Bricktown Site was rejected:


From Page 16 (of the whole pdf):
NORTH BRICKTOWN SITE
Positives

• The location is close to the existing convention center hotels, the Santa Fe Parking Garage and Bricktown.
• It could serve as a link between the core and Bricktown.
• A portion of the site is currently owned by the city.
• The existing Walnut Avenue bridge structure could act as a gateway into the city from the north.
Negatives

• This site is proposed for use by the future high speed rail connection to Tulsa, which would consume most of this site. Additionally, the Union Pacific railroad has an existing lease purchase agreement on a portion of the land, which if executed would make the site too small for the convention center.
• The site size and configuration is limited by the existing rail line on the west, construction of the Aloft Hotel to the north and the Mickey Mantle Drive Bridge to the east.
• Access for trucks to the exhibition halls is limited.
• There could be environmental and noise issues do to the close proximity to the railroad.
• There is an existing 96” diameter storm sewer that runs under the site that would need to be relocated.


From Page 29:
Problems were also encountered with the North Bricktown Hybrid site. Principal issues included existing and planned rail rights-of-way bisecting the site, difficult automobile and truck access, a poor site configuration and a less than ideal relationship between the surrounding properties and the proposed convention center due to issues of scale and compatibility with adjoining land uses.
…
During the public comment portion of the Workshop, representatives of Skirvin Partners questioned the process and the results of the team’s analysis and subsequent ranking. The Subcommittee instructed the team to give additional consideration to Skirvin Partners’ proposal by meeting with Skirvin’s representatives in person or by phone. In addition and prior to accepting the team’s final recommendation, the Subcommittee asked that all cost analyses be completed.

Both of the foregoing items were addressed at the final Workshop.


From Page 30:
N. BRICKTOWN SITE
Pros

• Proximity to existing hotels.
• Proximity to urban core.
• Proximity to dining/entertainment district.
• Proximity to existing parking.
• Partial city land ownership.
• Potential anchor for Oklahoma Avenue.
Cons

• Limited, irregular site area.
• Less prominent address.
• Scale incompatible with adjacent land uses.
• Difficult to accommodate future expansion.
• Poor vehicular access.
• Existing railroad right-of-way.
• Serious utility challenges.
• Site confined by railroad viaduct and Walnut Bridge.
• Future high speed rail corridor.


From Page 41:
Following the Subcommittee’s request, the team held a conference call with Skirvin Partners and their various representatives, to gain more insight into their proposal for the Bricktown North Hybrid site. Skirvin Partners contended that plans for rail service through the site were unclear and/or not firm. Information provided, however, by the Oklahoma City Transit Department illustrated that various rail-based transit initiatives will cross the central portion of the site in addition to the current rights-of-way in place. These factors alone appear to make large scale development unworkable on this site. Skirvin Partners also believed that the scoring of site evaluation criteria was far too low in several key criteria. They believed the effect of scoring modified according to their views would place them in contention. The team reviewed their concerns and agreed to adjust 2 criteria slightly with no effect on the ranking. The team also reiterated its concerns about scale, site size and configuration and access as serious detracting features of the North Bricktown Hybrid site.

The team continues to recommend the elimination of the North Bricktown Hybrid site as unsuitable for the new convention center and hotel.


It's also worth reviewing the maps on Page 42 where Populous/GSB use graphics from the Jacobs Hub Study report.

This has no chance of getting approved as currently conceived.

New garage, underground pedestrian tunnel extension planned for Bricktown | News OK (http://newsok.com/new-garage-underground-pedestrian-tunnel-extension-planned-for-bricktown/article/3808161?custom_click=pod_headline_financial-news)

UP says this



So did you talk to Don Karchmer, Cathy O'Connor and Rick Cain and did you do a thorough look at how this project is laid out and came to that conclusion?

You challenge him right away



I'm confused. Are you saying you talked to Karchmer, O'Connor and Cain about the garage project and had a thorough look at their plans and got to talk about your concerns? So you knew about this garage prior to today? How did Karchmer respond when you told him that you intended to take his land for future transit expansion?

I respond with


his land ... you understand most of this land is city owned land right??

Then you say


Nope. That's not right. Half the land is his; he has a 25-year lease for the remainder of the land.

Now back to my question:
Jeff, are you saying you talked to Karchmer, O'Connor and Cain about the garage project and had a thorough look at their plans and got to talk about your concerns? So you knew about this garage prior to today? How did Karchmer respond when you told him that you intended to take his land for future transit expansion?

Half the land is his for the 2300 space parking garage you stand by that?



1. I said that conversations have been had. I'm not posting on a public forum with whom I have had conversations yet.

2. Its the city's land. I'm not taking his land.

3. I knew that a garage has been broadly discussed and conversations have been had about how those interested in building a garage would need to refer to the City and Regionally adopted Hub Study to inform them as to the constraints of the site.

4. Karchmer, O'Connor, and if there is anyone else, hasn't been to a single MAPS 3 Transit, ACOG, or RTD meeting to present or discuss what they would like to do at the site.

5. If the Oklahoman layout is properly proportional in the image, the conflicts with the turning radius are undeniable.

UP responds.



Interesting....
Your original answer was worded in a way that indicated you might have talked to Karchmer and O'Connor. You haven't, have you?
Second. No, it's not all city land. Half of the land belongs to Karchmer. The other half he has a 25-year lease on.
Third, why haven't you guys talked to Karchmer if you had plans for his property? If you don't own it or have control over it (which is the case with both sets of property), how can you control what happens to it? How is a private property owner supposed to know what you want to do with his land unless you contact him? Did you invite him to one of your meetings?
Fourth, I ask again: how thorough of a look have you had the drawings and layouts?

You assume what he means by 2 and again say (half the land) which is not true

Also karchmer hired ADG (maps 3 consultant). Ne line study is part part of maps 3 possible conflict because they didn't tell Jacobs about the garage

Up says


And.... It takes leadership and to stand up and say we want a rail system. Volunteers are just helping make sure that remains an option as long as possible.


Then you post this


Honesty is important.

I post



So is understanding you don't have all the information/answers

Then you post



I've got some calls to return and I've got a couple of important posts to make on Twitter....

Followed by a now deleted tweet


Then this



Let's introduce some basic facts into this discussion.
First, the size of Karchmer's portion of the land needed for the high speed rail was first dismissed as being virtually nothing - that he didn't own any of the property. Then it was dismissed as small and insignificant (just the buffalo coral). In fact, it also involves a fairly large building. Keep in mind what we've seen presented indicates the portion needed for any possible future high speed rail line - one that is not funded by Congress or approved by a very conservative state legislature - would use the middle quarter of this parking lot (or the final third of the back proposed garage) and all of Karchmer's property. From what I see, if I'm understanding this correctly, that's about half and half.
I'm attaching the following map. I'm not going to get into a debate in this thread. But I will present actual information.
3730

You then go in to "do I have permission". Followed by HSR. Followed by ok not HSR commuter rail
Calling each actual information

When no one said he didn't own any property. They just pointed out that with out the city property this deal as presented is dead

One more time...
Boulder, you are being dishonest, misrepresenting what I said (you can't find a single instance where I say this garage project can or can't be done), and doing selective editing of posts. You deny personal attacks on me, yet you accused me of being friends with Karchmer and promoting his development, and you accused me of being a hypocrite.
All because I dared to question information being presented in this thread.
This is like the time I tried to get Wayne Coyne to give me specifics on his claims Rick Sinnett was a crook. His response? He wasn't going to talk to me because I was against everything he stood for. I've done numerous stories that were positive about Coyne. But he was upset over reaction to what I had written about his plans to create a sign outside The Womb gallery that would have shown a naked woman excreting a liquid while riding a unicorn.
Now let's end this.

Steve, the vast majority of OKCTALK greatly appreciate your contributions and integrity. I remember once before when similar attacks caused you to leave us for a while. Please don't let that happen again.

Disagreeing with whether this project will happen or not? I did no such thing. I disagreed with Jeff stating that the land was all owned by the city and that Karchmer had no say in the matter. I also challenged Jeff on whether the rail issue was the top reason for rejecting the site for a convention center.
Bouldersooner, you have insulted me, lied about what I say and questioned my integrity.
I dared, once again, to introduce information that contradicted what is being provided by anonymous folks like yourself on this site.
OKC Talk members - don't take the word of people like Bouldersooner when it comes to quoting what I have or have not done or said. Please investigate things on your own, be free thinkers, and take in as much information from as many different sources as you can on issues you care about.
This will be my last post.

Jeff never said that.

I've always been proud of the fact that we don't have to do much moderation here -- much less than just about any other active discussion forum than I've ever seen. For the most part, this site is a community that self-regulates.

But I need to step in here and ask people to let this go or at least take it to email or some other form of communication.

Especially since the people involved are all very, very valued members of the OKC community and are active in a way that makes a real difference. I'm less concerned about this site then I am about their relationships with each other and the various groups and organizations in which they are involved.


Let's all just calm down, back away and let this go. In the end, this is mostly fueled by a common passion for a city we all love, so let's take a deep breath and remember that.

One more time...
Boulder, you are being dishonest, misrepresenting what I said (you can't find a single instance where I say this garage project can or can't be done), and doing selective editing of posts. You deny personal attacks on me, yet you accused me of being friends with Karchmer and promoting his development, and you accused me of being a hypocrite.
All because I dared to question information being presented in this thread.
This is like the time I tried to get Wayne Coyne to give me specifics on his claims Rick Sinnett was a crook. His response? He wasn't going to talk to me because I was against everything he stood for. I've done numerous stories that were positive about Coyne. But he was upset over reaction to what I had written about his plans to create a sign outside The Womb gallery that would have shown a naked woman excreting a liquid while riding a unicorn.
Now let's end this.

Quoting entire posts is not selective. I called playing the "do I have permission" game while saying something is off the record is hipocracy and I stand by that

I didn't say you were friends with karchner I said it was that or you didn't do your home work from what you said I guess it is the later

I like how you also skip tier2city's. post

Following the Subcommittee’s request, the team held a conference call with Skirvin Partners and their various representatives, to gain more insight into their proposal for the Bricktown North Hybrid site. Skirvin Partners contended that plans for rail service through the site were unclear and/or not firm. Information provided, however, by the Oklahoma City Transit Department illustrated that various rail-based transit initiatives will cross the central portion of the site in addition to the current rights-of-way in place. These factors alone appear to make large scale development unworkable on this site. Skirvin Partners also believed that the scoring of site evaluation criteria was far too low in several key criteria. They believed the effect of scoring modified according to their views would place them in contention. The team reviewed their concerns and agreed to adjust 2 criteria slightly with no effect on the ranking. The team also reiterated its concerns about scale, site size and configuration and access as serious detracting features of the North Bricktown Hybrid site.

Which again shows that you are providing false intel

Sorry Pete I responded before I read your post. That will be all from my end

Is Bob Kemper around? Any word on the railway bills at the State Capitol?

They are trying to get it out of the OK Senate Conference Committee and heard before the legislature leaves for the summer.

The question is, will Gov Fallin sign it?

If not, there are other ways to get it through.

Bob should be proud. I cannot remember at any time in recent history a bill making it through both chambers with unanimous support.

If this makes it through, it will extricate the Rail Division from the stranglehold of our "Highway Department".

At a minimum, it certainly sends a clear message to ODOT. Or at least it should.

On another note, our next MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee is next Wed, May 22nd, at 3:30 PM. 420 Main, 10th floor conference room.

This will be a significant meeting as details are released about the consultant's thoughts on various streetcar routing options, perhaps maintenance facility preliminary locations, and an update on the NE Rail Line (Adventure Line) Study that is nearly complete.

I would expect this debate about the garage to also potentially be discussed.

Great job Hutch!

Plans for Bricktown garage clash with planning for rail transit | News OK (http://newsok.com/plans-for-bricktown-garage-clash-with-planning-for-rail-transit/article/3811926)

“The only possible affect would be on high-speed rail, as currently planned,” Karchmer said. “I believe there is an alternative for where they are trying to go. There is a cheaper and easier way to go. I'm in favor of rail as much as anybody else is; the light (commuter) rail I'm very much in favor of, and this won't affect it a bit.”

This quote from Steve's article is 100% false

As the alternative he is talking about is not efficient and causes commuter(as Steve correctly points out not light rail) up cross the railroad mainline. Something using the spur would avoid

Good job by Steve to get a follow up article

UP says this




You challenge him right away




I respond with



Then you say



Half the land is his for the 2300 space parking garage you stand by that?




UP responds.




You assume what he means by 2 and again say (half the land) which is not true

Also karchmer hired ADG (maps 3 consultant). Ne line study is part part of maps 3 possible conflict because they didn't tell Jacobs about the garage

Up says




Then you post this



I post




Then you post




Followed by a now deleted tweet


Then this




You then go in to "do I have permission". Followed by HSR. Followed by ok not HSR commuter rail
Calling each actual information

When no one said he didn't own any property. They just pointed out that with out the city property this deal as presented is deadI have to say, after reading all of the posts, I'm siding with Steve on this one. Seems like a few personal issues were conflicted here. Still don't understand where all of the hate came from! The only conclusion I came to is that things were said or done "outside of this forum" and it spilled in.

Good article Steve. I'm also impressed with council's quick squashing of this bug.

So did you talk to Don Karchmer, Cathy O'Connor and Rick Cain and did you do a thorough look at how this project is laid out and came to that conclusion?

So I wonder what did go wrong here?

Good recap of last week's MAPS 3 Modern Streetcar 101 meeting:

http://npaper-wehaa.com/oklahoma-gazette#2013/05/15/?article=1898776

On another note, our next MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee is next Wed, May 22nd, at 3:30 PM. 420 Main, 10th floor conference room.

This will be a significant meeting as details are released about the consultant's thoughts on various streetcar routing options, perhaps maintenance facility preliminary locations, and an update on the NE Rail Line (Adventure Line) Study that is nearly complete.

I would expect this debate about the garage to also potentially be discussed.


This meeting scheduled for next week has been cancelled due to the death of one of the NE Rail Line (Adventure Line) study team members. The results of that study was expected to be more greatly revealed at this meeting. Also, the economic development analysis for routes under consideration have not been fully finalized.

The next transit Subcommittee meeting should be in all probability, June 26th.

Presentations on Potential MAPS 3 Streetcar Transit Oriented Development (TOD)

At the December 19, 2012 meeting of the MAPS 3 Transit/Modern Streetcar Subcommittee AJ Kirkpatrick gave two presentations on the potential for Transit Oriented Development (TOD) related to the MAPS 3 Streetcar. The streetcar can be expected to support TOD and in turn increased density will further support the streetcar.

AJ Kirkpatrick (who was with the City of OKC and is now at Downtown OKC) discussed the work he and his colleagues Brandon Melland and Phillip Walters did to dig deeper beyond the data the Planning Department had provided to Jacobs for the downtown streetcar Alternatives Analysis process in 2010 and 2011. They used innovative GIS heat mapping to rate the proximity to and clustering of geographic resources. For existing conditions they scored areas for employment, residential, hotels, retail activity, attraction attendance and major off-street parking. To evaluate areas for potential development they looked at underused land, building vacancies and by how much a lot could support denser development. Their resulting composite map (below) shows clear patterns where both existing and potential conditions would support strong TOD.

AJ's second presentation looked at the potential for increased densification in different parts of greater downtown and how to envisage what such development might look like. Floor to Area Ratio (FAR) is an effective measure of density. It relates the total built floor area to the total lot area, so for example the FAR in Heritage Hills is 0.25 whereas the Devon Energy Center has a FAR of 9.39. Recommend FAR's for TOD range from 0.75 to 1.0. AJ showed how this goal could be achieved in different downtown districts by relating the expected additional floor space to multiples of different types of existing new developments in those areas.

This important work by the City of OKC Planning department provides an objective quantification of the potential for Transit Oriented Development in different parts of downtown and will be a key factor in locating the streetcar route.

The presentations are spread across three separate videos at the OKCspan YouTube site:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itw0-6V2nUo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8lyU3Sg28I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1fWMc5vFZo


For those interested in some of the economic development discussions that have been had, please feel free to watch videos of the finding by our planning department.

The streetcar consultants are taking the analysis even further to help inform the route decision process.

Has High-Speed Rail Been Derailed? (http://www.governing.com/topics/finance/gov-has-high-speed-rail-been-derailed.html)

Congress canceled White House tours. Really? No reason to read the shill any further

They are trying to get it out of the OK Senate Conference Committee and heard before the legislature leaves for the summer.

The question is, will Gov Fallin sign it?

If not, there are other ways to get it through.

Bob should be proud. I cannot remember at any time in recent history a bill making it through both chambers with unanimous support.

If this makes it through, it will extricate the Rail Division from the stranglehold of our "Highway Department".

At a minimum, it certainly sends a clear message to ODOT. Or at least it should.

Still waiting on Conference Committee? Should people be emailing Senators?

Has High-Speed Rail Been Derailed? (http://www.governing.com/topics/finance/gov-has-high-speed-rail-been-derailed.html)


In the hearing, Denham was skeptical of the state’s business plan. The project costs $68.5 billion, and California officials expect the feds to pick up $42 billion of that total. Where, Denham asked LaHood, would that huge amount of federal funding come from?

From the Federal Reserve of course. If we can use the Fed to buy $85 billion a month in mortgages, float Wall Street Banks, and now issue extremely low low-interest loans to college students why can't the Fed just produce the money to build HSR?

Still waiting on Conference Committee? Should people be emailing Senators?

Per Bob just now via text, this is being bumped to the next session along with a quantity of other Bills.

Per Bob just now via text, this is being bumped to the next session along with a quantity of other Bills.

Shoot. The only amendments to the bill were related to the title (that I could tell). How can they not work that out? Silly.

This situation is actually amazing. We have worked very hard on this relatively quietly.


OK Railway Commission Bill Gains Steam in House and Senate

House Bill 2180 and Senate Bill 584 have passed the Oklahoma State Legislature unanimously.

The legislation supported by both rail transit and freight railroad shippers alike, would extricate the Rail Division out of the Oklahoma Department of Transportation and provide for a new agency with its own oversight board.

Legislators first debated the issue as a potential expansion of government, then determined via debate that such a new agency would actually increase efficiency through focusing ongoing rail management efforts into a more streamlined approach.

It was concluded by legislators that a separate agency would have a significant positive economic affect on the State of Oklahoma's economy through providing more competition and diversity through the private sector, whilst increasing State railroad revenues through seeding broader railroad operations across the State.


RAIL TRANSIT AND RAILROAD SUPPORTERS ENCOURAGED BY UNANIMOUS VOTES

Rail transit and railroad advocates have long argued that ODOT's main focus has been on highway construction.

In the last several decades, ODOT has sold critical right-of-way properties, formerly railroad corridors, to private entities with no oversight. The long term negative implications to the Oklahoma City and Tulsa Metros, short line, long distance line, and the Oil and Gas Industry are now being realized as the State's economy grows and greater accessibility is required.

With its primary focus on highway construction, rail properties have been sold. Critical connections to Tinker Air Force Base, NE Oklahoma, and many export access points for rural Oil and Gas Fields have been lost due to the lack of oversight.

The "highway only" ODOT policies continue as the Department considers further sales of even more extraordinary corridors. With no oversight, critical highway underpasses and overpasses in Oklahoma City, such as the new Kilpatrick Turnpike expansion, I-44/235 Interchange, NE 50th Street overpass, and the new OKC Boulevard Bridge are either completed or underway with no provisions providing for the necessary space for future commuter rail transit that the OKC Metro is considering. This will force the Metro to build these facilities at a premium cost to the taxpayer with every continued, short sighted decision made.


WHERE DO THE BILLS GO FROM HERE?

Both Bills are headed to the State Legislature's Conference Committee for minor revisions.

The final approved Bill is expected to potentially be before Governor Mary Fallin as early as next week.


WHAT CAN YOU DO?

Feel free to contact Governor Fallin and encourage her to sign the final bill for the Oklahoma Railways Commission.

https://www.ok.gov/governor/Contact_the_Governor/index.html#


charlie.joyner@okhouse.gov (405) 557-7314

schulz@oksenate.gov 580-482-0886

tw.shannon@okhouse.gov (405) 557-7374

Thinking back on this. I fully support this bill, but I don't support lying/stretching the truth in support. It did NOT pass the House unanimously. It passed 71-18 (still a healthy majority). It DID pass the Senata 43-0.

Unfortunately it appears ODOR and Ridley have won this round.

Floor Leader Senator Mike Schulz has apparently decided that a gubernatorial veto would taint his record. HB-2180 - The Oklahoma Railways Commission bill. Not all is lost. Work will begin during the off-session to determine what can be done in the 2014 Oklahoma legislative session.

Not exactly sure if it means the bill is permanently stuck in committee purgatory and therefore effectively dead; or if it means it is merely delayed in moving back to the House Transportation Committee until next session. It looks like Sen Schulz is trying to give the governor some cover by not letting it get to where she has to make a decision - either sign a bill that has overwhelming support except for ODOR/Ridley and explain to ODOR/RidleyHighway Lobby why she signed it; or veto and hope it isn't overridden.

Hopefully the people that have worked so hard on this will be able to get some movement in a few months. If you support it, be prepared to make phone calls, write letters and emails, and maybe even visit the statehouse a time or two.

There's a lot going on. I find it incredibly impressive that it has had unanimous voting support. At a minimum, its sending some very strong signal that things have to change.

There's a lot going on. I find it incredibly impressive that it has had unanimous voting support. At a minimum, its sending some very strong signal that things have to change.

See my previous post. Not unanimous.

This thread got real embarrassing real fast.

This thread got real embarrassing real fast.

:)

on the topic of the proposed transit hub:

-----

The Brewers' want $23.5 million for Sante Fe Depot

that cupcake shop lease ought to be worth like $5 Million by itself :)

here's what the 2012 and 2013 oklahoma county assessor has for market value for the property for 146 S E K GAYLORD BLVD,
but i'm not sure this is the only or all of the parcel(s) the city wants. someone correct me if its more/less that this parcel.

1,453,035 2012
2,840,881 2013

its interesting the assessor bumped the value so much (edit: i think the assessor's role is to maximize tax revenue, not reflect market value, FWIW)

I suppose the Brewer's could claim they have an imminent plan to construct a 200 car for profit parking garage on the site later this year and it may justify their asking price, or something like a giant multistory hotel that would boost the value. something to watch in the coming days...

Oklahoma City seeks to condemn, acquire Santa Fe train depot in $21 million dispute | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/3835616)

that cupcake shop lease ought to be worth like $5 Million by itself :)


Don't forget the electronic signs. Those have to be $2.5 million each.

nm

Don't forget the electronic signs. Those have to be $2.5 million each.

When they put them up (had to get variances, etc) the inside opinion was that they were only doing it to increase the property value for when the City bought it...

The Brewers will probably get more than $2.3 million, but I would venture it won't be much more.

A commercial property is usually valued by income generation and since there is really no way that property can be torn down (even in OKC!) you have to realize there is only so much revenue that can be generated there.

They have used most of it as surface parking, put up incredibly tacky advertising signs, done a very poor job of leasing out the retail space and have also been bad about maintaining the property. A few years ago I took photos of the outside of the station and it was filled with trash, signs were in disrepair, etc.

I think the City should just jack the assessed value up to $25 million, let the Brewers default on the tax payments, and then pick it up at the Sheriff's auction for $1.

JTF: interesting idea and I know you are joking, but a couple of thoughts...who assesses the properties value, the City or the County? If the property is assessed for the $25 million doesn't that play into the Brewer's demands? Hard to imagine the City being the only one to show up at the auction (are there restrictions on the owner, either themselves or a third-party showing up and buying the property back)? Does the successful buyer have to aslo pay the back taxes? It seems unlikely that it would only go for $1. LOL

JTF: interesting idea and I know you are joking, but a couple of thoughts...who assesses the properties value, the City or the County? If the property is assessed for the $25 million doesn't that play into the Brewer's demands? Hard to imagine the City being the only one to show up at the auction (are there restrictions on the owner, either themselves or a third-party showing up and buying the property back)? Does the successful buyer have to aslo pay the back taxes? It seems unlikely that it would only go for $1. LOL

County. They can only raise the actual taxable assessment by 3.5% (or maybe 5%) each year by law. However, once it sells they can raise it one time to match the value that the County Assessor thinks it should be...

cafeboeuf: according to what blangtang posted it nearly doubled in a year (100%). Or is that something different??


($)1,453,035 2012
($)2,840,881 2013

cafeboeuf: according to what blangtang posted it nearly doubled in a year (100%). Or is that something different??

The County's market value estimation may have doubled, but the taxable estimation hasn't.

All of the land just east of the railroad tracks from Sheridan to Reno Ave. was deeded to The City of OKC "FREE" by the Brewer family in 1998-99. This land was used for the construction of the MAPS 1 Bricktown Canal plaza. That is a lot of land. Ask attorney John Williams if anyone has questions. He represented the Brewers in the transaction.

Hogan only paid $2.5M for all of Lower Bricktown and then the City spent that back on improvements.

The Brewer family gave ODOT free rent for 10 years on a subsidized AMTRAK service and paid for all maintenance, taxes, and utilities.

When the Brewer family acquired the facility it was dilapidated and owned by the BNSF. Nobody wanted it. Not event the City of OKC. ODOT did not want this facility but had grant funds available to pitch in for the restoration of AMTRAK service to OKC. It was a partnership. The Brewer family spent more than the ODOT grant. If it wasn't for the Brewer Family this piece of History could have, and probably would have, been torn down and now just be a surface parking lot. Ask John Williams, Dan Brummitt, or Kirk Humphreys.

The Brewer family gave ODOT free rent for 10 years on a subsidized AMTRAK service and paid for all maintenance, taxes, and utilities.

What is your point? Are you saying that the City should now pay $25M for that property and drop the imminent domain suit?

No. The family just wants to get to the table and be fair. They know their number is too high. The family was basically forced and given the ultimatum of providing the city a "number" or else (Eminent Domain). Both parties know what a fair number is but the city will not get to the table and negotiate. This is a very unique piece of property with basically no direct comps. The city will not give the family time for due diligence.

No. The family just wants to get to the table and be fair. They know their number is too high. The family was basically forced and given the ultimatum of providing the city a "number" or else (Eminent Domain). Both parties know what a fair number is but the city will not get to the table and negotiate. This is a very unique piece of property with basically no direct comps. The city will not give the family time for due diligence.

You are the only person who I have heard say that. Do you have information that backs that up?

I have the letter at the office. I will try to post tomorrow.

No. The family just wants to get to the table and be fair. They know their number is too high. The family was basically forced and given the ultimatum of providing the city a "number" or else (Eminent Domain). Both parties know what a fair number is but the city will not get to the table and negotiate. This is a very unique piece of property with basically no direct comps. The city will not give the family time for due diligence.
They have known it is coming and had lots of time for due diligence. No excuse for not knowing the real value. They aren't victims but shrewd business family.

They are a business family. But the problem lies in finding comps that are comparable to train stations and property that has that much frontage foot to a major downtown street. There has been some analysis based on recent sales of various properties downtown. But to do a complete comprehensive appraisal based on true comps and true highest and best uses take time. Might have to go to peer cities. Having said that, I'm confident that if both parties got to the table a deal could be done without ED and come to an agreement where everyone wins. Ball is in the city's court.

They are a business family. But the problem lies in finding comps that are comparable to train stations and property that has that much frontage foot to a major downtown street. There has been some analysis based on recent sales of various properties downtown. But to do a complete comprehensive appraisal based on true comps and true highest and best uses take time. Might have to go to peer cities. Having said that, I'm confident that if both parties got to the table a deal could be done without ED and come to an agreement where everyone wins. Ball is in the city's court.

ED process has started

I love all the one-sided spin. Most of the money used to fix up (and I use that term in the widest possible sense) the station came from the taxpayers in the form of $1 million grant. Looking at the place it is hard to tell what they spent $1 million on.

No spin. These are facts. I wish you could of seen what I saw in '98. A lot of that money was use up on the tracks and in the tunnel as well. New Elevator, Canopy, lighting, etc. Everything had to be approved by the HP folks. $1M dollars doesn't go very far these days. Zio's spent $3M just to get their restaurant open in Bricktown.

So how much out of pocket money did the Brewer's spend?

The Brewer's have spent that and even more over the years. The original and continuing deal is a public/private partnership that has saved this historic building and brought passenger rail back to our state. This now put us in the position we our today. All they are asking for is to get to the table and be fair. They are and have been willing to do this. The city manager hasn't. If he called them today, there could probably be a deal by friday. They do not want to hold up anything. They just want a fair deal.

So you don't know how much out of pocket, or you do and won't say? What amount do the Brewer's consider a fair deal?

Both parties know their numbers are not fair.