If you have a hole for a refrigerator and you are given the money by your insurance company to buy a new refrigerator, you are going to buy the biggest one that will fit in that hole. Regardless of what you actually need in capacity. And likewise, that refrigerator will eventually fill up -- but not because you are eating more.

Don't worry, I'm laughing at my own analogy.

of course if you have a mini fridge and a family of 12 you will not be able to store the food you need for them

of course if you have a mini fridge and a family of 12 you will not be able to store the food you need for them

That all depends on how many times you want to go to the grocery store, but one thing is for sure, you won't put 32 cubic feet of food in a 5 cubic foot fridge. You'll have to make other plans, and that is the whole point. When the West Side freeway was close on Manhattan in 1973, 53% of the traffic that used to travel on that road dissappeared (meaning that traffic counts on surrounding streets did not go up to match the lost capacity). 53% of the people simply stopped driving.

Well, not exactly. They made a different sequence and timing of trips. It's not like 53% of all trips ceased to exist. Just want to be clear about that.

No - 53% of trips stopped being made - at least by car.

Sorry, I meant to post the link in the previous post.

http://www.preservenet.com/freeways/FreewaysWestSide.html


When the West Side Highway was closed in 1973, 53 percent of the traffic that had used this highway disappeared, dramatic proof that building freeways generates traffic and that removing freeways reduces traffic.

I work and park downtown. At 5 o'clock, it takes me less than 5 minutes from when I get to my car to when I am on the interstate. Our "rush hour" traffic is really not bad at all. I doubt eliminating two lanes from EK Gaylord will turn my 5 minute trip into even a 10 minute trip. But that 6 lanes is dangerous to cross when I walk from the courthouse to Bricktown at lunch. If you made it 4 lanes it would be much easier and I'd see more people making the trip.

I don't mind if it takes a little longer to get into downtown, if I have a better experience once I am there. The chief problem with our downtown is that too many people leave at 5. That's what everyone complains about. We want to make it a nicer place to live and work, even if it means a slightly longer commute.

Not to be contrary, but the West Side Highway was later rebuilt to modern standards about a dozen years ago, was it not?. The original one was functionally obsolete with cobblestones and designs fitting for early cars and their speeds. Traffic didn't just disappear and I don't think you will find the train ridership immediately shot up. I think to say its demised made people quit driving altogether is pretty naive.

You will have to take it up with NYC Highway Dept Rover. They are the ones who said 53% of traffic ceased to exist. That fact laid the foundation for the realization of 'induced demand' - demand that only exists because capacity exists.

You will have to take it up with NYC Highway Dept Rover. They are the ones who said 53% of traffic ceased to exist. That fact laid the foundation for the realization of 'induced demand' - demand that only exists because capacity exists.

do you have a link from the nyc highway dept ??

do you have a link from the nyc highway dept ??

A link to traffic counts in 1973? No I don't. But a quick Google search should be able to validate the 53% reduction claim (I already posted one link).

Here is research from the University of Connecticut on the subject.

http://www.crcog.org/publications/TransportationDocs/Viaduct/CS-UConnGradResearch.pdf

Check out the removal of the Embarcadero Freeway example in the referenced document.

Anyhow, we were talking about the streetcar weren't we.

A link to traffic counts in 1973? No I don't. But a quick Google search should be able to validate the 53% reduction claim (I already posted one link).

Here is research from the University of Connecticut on the subject.

http://www.crcog.org/publications/TransportationDocs/Viaduct/CS-UConnGradResearch.pdf

Check out the removal of the Embarcadero Freeway example in the referenced document.

Anyhow, we were talking about the streetcar weren't we.

so your position is that over half the people that drove everyday on that road stopped their commute? took trains? what?

I was not implying that a longer commute is the problem, I am talking about people trying to get out of garages along EKG being almost impossible with 6 lanes of traffic, and to imagine 4 is even more impressive.


I am not sure anyone here has a monthly pass for the Cox garage or the Santa Fe garage, but it is like playing frogger trying to pull into traffic because all the people who are already on EKG had to go through the same thing and are letting NO ONE in front of them. People repeatedly pull up in front of the garages while waiting @ the traffic lights and this even prevents people from turning left to go north.


I would love to see EKG with 2 lanes and street parking, but I think right now with the Cox Center still being there (and the garage underneath) it is logistically impossible to narrow EKG. Once the Cox Center is bulldozed, I think it is plausible.

so your position is that over half the people that drove everyday on that road stopped their commute? took trains? what?

53% of them took a train, consolidated trips, relocated closer to work, or just quit going altogether.

I am sure it was so frustrating to see the road go that 10s of thousands of people just instantly quit their jobs, lost interest in shopping, quit going to the museums, yada, yada, yada, and just quit going into NYC. LOL. I've got some swamp land to sell too. I will have great statistics up soon why swamp land is a great investment.

Most people don't just go cruising in NYC. The population swells during the day and shrinks after work. People commute in and out in many forms of transportation and various routes. Obviously the movement went somewhere, but I guarantee 50% didn't abandoned their car on this one action. But it makes a great story.

Like

I was not implying that a longer commute is the problem, I am talking about people trying to get out of garages along EKG being almost impossible with 6 lanes of traffic, and to imagine 4 is even more impressive.


I am not sure anyone here has a monthly pass for the Cox garage or the Santa Fe garage, but it is like playing frogger trying to pull into traffic because all the people who are already on EKG had to go through the same thing and are letting NO ONE in front of them. People repeatedly pull up in front of the garages while waiting @ the traffic lights and this even prevents people from turning left to go north.


I would love to see EKG with 2 lanes and street parking, but I think right now with the Cox Center still being there (and the garage underneath) it is logistically impossible to narrow EKG. Once the Cox Center is bulldozed, I think it is plausible.

Please corect me if I am mistaken Anonymous, but I thought left turns were prohibited exiting the east side of Santa Fe garage? If they aren't, that would solve some of the problem - especially when the Blvd connection to I40 is complete.

I wouldn't try to turn left at that location most times anyway, and to me it isn't a big deal to make a couple right turns to double back on Broadway or go through Bricktown and then north on Mantle/Walnut. Or what is so bad about going down Gaylord/Shields to I40?

Just a couple thoughts and I admit I do not park there as frequently as you.

The ability to make a right turn is a big problem

More difficult than turning left? That seems counterintuitive, but as I said, you guys are likely there more often than me.

More difficult than turning left? That seems counterintuitive, but as I said, you guys are likely there more often than me.

Left is clearly harder. But the problem is that it can be hard to turn right out of the garage

I don't think you can turn left out of the Santa Fe, but you can out of the Cox.


Thunder game nights are especially bad leaving @ 5pm, because people are already coming downtown and VIP ticket members have game night passes for the Cox garage. Turning right or left out of the Cox garage is a nightmare, left is obviously more challenging. I think maybe a better traffic light flow could help.

If the street were narrower with on street parking, maybe people wouldn't cruise down EKG at 55mph thus making it easier to pull out, you'd be pulling into slower traffic instead of into a highway.

I don't think you can turn left out of the Santa Fe, but you can out of the Cox.


You're not supposed to turn left from Santa Fe, but you can. I see people do it every day.

You're not supposed to turn left from Santa Fe, but you can. I see people do it every day.

That may be part of the problem. I think the city should make temporary changes with infrastructure and better signal programming to improve the area now. I think it would be wasteful and foolish to spend a large amount of money now when we know changes will be required when the streetcar and transit hub is constructed. Maybe start making incremental changes when the final hub design is done but do not build something that will need to be demolished in a couple years.

I uploaded some old post cards to the "Nostalgia & Memories" section...thought I'd post this one here as well...

Broadway North of Grand Avenue

3627

Great picture! Broadway is the one street that could almost look like that again.

OKC really was a fabulously urban city at one point. It is shocking how much it was deleteriously altered by urban renewal. When you view old photos of OKC you're almost incredulous that it is the same city.

OKC really was a fabulously urban city at one point. It is shocking how much it was deleteriously altered by urban renewal. When you view old photos of OKC you're almost incredulous that it is the same city.

That is why I get mad when I hear people make excuses like "we can't do that", "people here won't use it", "we like our cars", "it is too expensive", etc.... We already did it once, now for some magical reason today's generation is incapable.

The problem is we're an instant society and people don't want to deal with the hassle of building things if it's going to get in their way.

That is why I get mad when I hear people make excuses like "we can't do that", "people here won't use it", "we like our cars", "it is too expensive", etc.... We already did it once, now for some magical reason today's generation is incapable.

Same here - I wonder sometimes why I, as a transplant, seem to have a higher opinion of what OKC can be than those who have been here for the long haul. I have stuck around long after I could have left just because it is exciting to be part of a city's transformation. Even in my relatively short time here, the changes for the better have been astounding.

I would love to see what downtown would look like if you could overlay the newer buildings from 1970 on over the empty lots created by the Pei destruction and the Crosstown scar. Someone on here must have the ability to pull that off.....

I would love to see what downtown would look like if you could overlay the newer buildings from 1970 on over the empty lots created by the Pei destruction and the Crosstown scar. Someone on here must have the ability to pull that off.....

Please DON'T do that. I don't have enough alcohol in the house to survive looking at that picture. :)

Please DON'T do that. I don't have enough alcohol in the house to survive looking at that picture. :)Oh, well I was going to try and put my amateur rendering skills that I have been learning at one of my classes, to work. What if I ship some Sky Vodka in a gas tanker that says subsidized by campbell sadeghy, will that be okay??? lol jk ;)

Please DON'T do that. I don't have enough alcohol in the house to survive looking at that picture. :)

Tell you what, let's wait until you visit OKC again and I will provide the "tonic" to ease your (and my) pain. The Reverend Elijah Craig would have to work some magic... :wink:

But I would love to see what it could have been - it may even inspire more people if they are provided a visual. OKC is not bad or terrible or finished because of mistakes in the past. To the city's credit I think we have learned from most of those mistakes, but maybe a little reminder would do some good if it is slightly different from anything offered before.

I would love to see that picture. I am not a visually gifted person, I can't tell you what color the carpet in my office is unless I look at the floor. But I think this city has the ability to become very dense once again. The changes that I've seen over the last 7 or 8 years are staggering. There's no reason it can't continue.

There's still a strong inferiority complex in many OKC residents. For too long people felt like they needed to apologize for the way things were. Like the chubby girl with glasses who grew up, lost weight, and got hot, a lot of OKC residents don't realize the potential here. Thankfully that is starting to go away, but it's going to take more time for civic pride to grow.

So folks, looks like we're going to have a streetcar meeting at night!

3686

Are you being facetious or something? All five Let's Talk Transit as well as both Alternatives Analysis public meetings about the streetcar were held in the evening.

Finally, a publicly accessible streetcar event.. Now you're catching on

So folks, looks like we're going to have a streetcar meeting at night!

I'll be out of town then. Will it be accessible somewhere online?

Interesting Gazette article:

Streetcar vs. bus


A city councilman pushes back on the anticipated MAPS 3 streetcar amid concerns it will hurt the bus system.

Tim Farley
April 24th, 2013
The anticipated return of streetcars to downtown Oklahoma City has sparked excitement and anticipation among many city leaders, but Ed Shadid isn’t one of them.

An outspoken critic of the modern streetcar project, the Ward 2 councilman claims voters were misled about that part of the MAPS 3 plan.

Shadid, a supporter of the Metro Transit bus system, has repeatedly called for more funding and improvements in that area.

“We were told this would be the largest streetcar system in the nation. Not true. We heard this would not be a loop around downtown, yet it may end up being a loop around downtown,” he said.

“The public was led to believe that we were going to parlay this into federal funds, which is not true. Three years after the vote, the city was denied federal funding.”

Federal Transit Administration officials confirmed they informed the Central Oklahoma Transportation Parking Authority (COTPA) in April of last year that Oklahoma City’s streetcar program would not be considered for federal funding. According to the FTA, the project’s overall score did not meet the agency’s requirements.

Multiple criteria used to deter mine eligibility included cost effectiveness, estimated economic development created by the project and local financial commitment. Operation and maintenance funding is a key piece of the local financial commitment.

Shadid labeled COTPA’s federal funding try a “fool’s errand” since the authority had no ridership numbers or potential economic development estimates.

Although the streetcars and the projected six miles of track will be paid via MAPS 3, funding for future operation and maintenance has not been determined, said MAPS 3 program manager David Todd.

“To say there is no plan is true,” he said, “but there are ideas and concepts we’re studying to do that.”

Meanwhile, City Manager Jim Couch said operation and maintenance costs on the project’s first phase should not exceed $3 million a year, or less than 1 percent of the city’s $400 million general fund.

“We can blend that into our revenue growth,” he said.

Shadid contends that is hardly a plan.

“That should alarm a lot of people. It’s easy to build things, but it takes more sophistication to operate and maintain them,” he said.

Working together
Shadid may appear to be the city council’s lone maverick in terms of transit, but the first-term councilman is adamant about making the bus system the No. 1 public transportation priority.

“Streetcars are a symbol of transit, but it does not score high in terms of functional transit,” he said. “What problem is being solved with the streetcar? Moving people around downtown is not solving any problem. I’m opposed to only investing in streetcars and not looking at any other transit.”

But Nathaniel Harding said that’s not the case. Harding, chairman of the MAPS 3 Transit subcommittee, said his panel has never suggested taking money away from the bus system.

“Streetcars will not harm the existing transit system,” he said. “To have a good transit system, you need a variety of modes. They need to coexist. It all ties into a future mass transit system and will help kick off a regional system.”

Buses will be useful in transporting people to downtown, which, in turn, allows streetcars to shuttle visitors, residents and workers to the various entertainment and shopping venues.

“It’s a model that works in other cities,” Harding said. “Streetcars will fail without a quality bus system. Streetcars will free up buses to serve other areas outside of downtown Oklahoma City.”

Couch suggested the modern, sleek-looking streetcars will take Oklahoma City to the next level in terms of downtown growth.

“It will enhance downtown and benefit the people who work, live and visit here,” he said. “It will spurn new development and should be an economic boom. No doubt about that.”

City officials in Portland, Ore., have seen firsthand the impact of a streetcar system on a community. Since 2001 — the year the streetcars were operational — more than $4 billion in investment has come to that area, including 10,000 new housing units, according to Rick Gustafson, executive director of Portland Streetcar, Inc., and a consultant on the OKC project.

Without the streetcars, developers would not have made such a sizable investment, he said.

Lee Nichols, senior transportation planner for Jacobs Engineering, the lead consultant on the OKC project, said developers like the permanency of streetcar lines. In Seattle, developments have been built one to two blocks from the streetcar line, he said.

“Streetcars historically helped develop cities, and now it’s come full circle,” Nichols said.

Two potential streetcar routes in OKC are under review, and a related economic development assessment is under way in connection with both routes. A route recommendation and the assessment should be finalized this summer.

Oklahoma Gazette News: OKC streetcar system (http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-18079-streetcar-vs-bus.html)

I'll be out of town then. Will it be accessible somewhere online?

I'll also be out of town and hope someone does a recording or posts some highlights.

Shadid has a much different memory about this than I do. At no time do I remember anyone saying OKC would get federal funds. They said we would apply for them - and they did. As for future operation and maintenance let me ask this. Where is the funding plan for the operation and maintenance of the existing (let alone expanded) bus system? And before anyone says "the general fund" - read this quote:


Meanwhile, City Manager Jim Couch said operation and maintenance costs on the project’s first phase should not exceed $3 million a year, or less than 1 percent of the city’s $400 million general fund.

“We can blend that into our revenue growth,” he said.

Shadid contends that is hardly a plan.

Shadid has a much different memory about this than I do. At no time do I remember anyone saying OKC would get federal funds. They said we would apply for them - and they did. As for future operation and maintenance let me ask this. Where is the funding plan for the operation and maintenance of the existing (let alone expanded) bus system? And before anyone says "the general fund" - read this quote:

Shadid is simply revising history. There are dozens of publicly available articles about the planning process prior to the MAPS III vote in which the city made clear that federal funds were not guaranteed -- as MAPS III pays for the streetcar without federal funds -- but would be sought. It was never stated that the project was predicated on the receipt of federal funds; if it were, it would have been doomed.

So we didn't get them when they were available. Big whoop. That doesn't mean we can't reapply for them later if the political climate about federal spending on public transportation shifts back in a friendlier direction.

This canard is ridiculous. Shadid strikes me as a very intelligent man, but my respect for his research skills has taken a nosedive. He's become a propagandist masquerading as a defender of truth. I cannot presume to know his motives for this blatant public misrepresentation.

I am actually a little peeved at the Gazette for not even examining its own archives; had the reporter done that, this canard would not have made it into print.

I also don't ever recall hearing someone say we'd have the biggest system in the country. Maybe with Phase II? Internally, we all knew Federal funds were a wish, and that we'd have to build the first portion and make it somewhat successful before FTA would ever fund. It might not have been communicated as such, but the MAPS 3 funds for the streetcar were essentially a down payment to attract FTA funds down the road.

I tried to tell you that Shadid wasn't the friend of progress many on here tried to make him out to be.

I tried to tell you that Shadid wasn't the friend of progress many on here tried to make him out to be.

Every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut.


I KID!

Guess you were right on this.

So this appeared in the Gazette prior to the vote:


GAZETTE
Officials: Downtown rail initiative in
MAPS 3 can serve as future framework
Ben Fenwick
November 5th, 2009

"The total figure for transit is an estimated $130 million," said David Holt, the mayor's chief of
staff.”

“Holt said the rails of the five-to-six-mile streetcar would link together the elements planned for
downtown Oklahoma City included in MAPS 3.”

“Cornett said streetcar construction costs $20 million a mile. He also said City Manager Jim Couch
agreed to absorb $2 million of this project's annual operational costs into his general budget.
However, attracting federal funding for such projects is an unknown variable.”

"When you are talking about downtown streetcar systems, it's interesting to note that there might
be federal money available, there might be state money available," Cornett said, stressing the
"might." "If you talk transit on a regional basis, there might be money from other regional
municipalities available, but what I didn't want to do with this initiative is shortchange it or rely on
another funding source.”

There's plenty more information in the public record out there.

Scratching my head at how convenient this is...

It's not the streetcar planning process' fault that FTA funding fell through. They did an internal review of us and concluded our political climate was up in air, not everyone was on same page, and timeline was in limbo. With everyone on the same page and the timeline more aggressive as originally inspired, maybe better results.

At this point it may be worth making some substantial bus service fixes that RAISE funding and service expectations, just to get all transit advocates back under the same umbrella.

Scratching my head at how convenient this is...

It's not the streetcar planning process' fault that FTA funding fell through. They did an internal review of us and concluded our political climate was up in air, not everyone was on same page, and timeline was in limbo. With everyone on the same page and the timeline more aggressive as originally inspired, maybe better results.

At this point it may be worth making some substantial bus service fixes that RAISE funding and service expectations, just to get all transit advocates back under the same umbrella.

Where did you hear that for the reason that FTA didn't fund?

Scratching my head at how convenient this is...

It's not the streetcar planning process' fault that FTA funding fell through. They did an internal review of us and concluded our political climate was up in air, not everyone was on same page, and timeline was in limbo. With everyone on the same page and the timeline more aggressive as originally inspired, maybe better results.

At this point it may be worth making some substantial bus service fixes that RAISE funding and service expectations, just to get all transit advocates back under the same umbrella.

I am going to be honest Spartan - that reads like Shadid gave it to you to post. :)

I also don't ever recall hearing someone say we'd have the biggest system in the country. Maybe with Phase II? Internally, we all knew Federal funds were a wish, and that we'd have to build the first portion and make it somewhat successful before FTA would ever fund. It might not have been communicated as such, but the MAPS 3 funds for the streetcar were essentially a down payment to attract FTA funds down the road.

The closest any statement was to largeness was referencing the one which was demolished, I seem to recall six miles of track was the base promise with hope of getting additional funds from the feds

I am the one Shadid is referencing. I said during the campaign that our proposal was the largest "start up" system proposed at the time. And that was the truth.

But that changed as all things changed when several cities announced even bigger initiatives after our vote passed.

Shadid grabs quotes from the past and uses them without "context" to plant seeds of doubt. The same happened not only in his quotes to the Gazette and during his personally sponsored transit forum.

Spartan, we didn't get funding because the FTA wasn't happy with our pledge to fund the starter system O&M out of the annual general city budget. That is not enough of stable commitment for them to invest here. Shadid alleges that supporters knew this. We didn't. And many of us thought the Stimulus money would be more broadly available. However, there was no promise made that we would get Federal Funding as Shadid alleges. He also has not, does not, and probably will not acknowledge that the Subcommittee tasked with MAPS 3 streetcar is actively discussing stable O&M solutions to make us more attractive for Federal Funds.

Federal Funds had nothing to do with politics or the ADG timeline. Certainly support from a Inhofe, Coburn, or Lankford would indeed help, but billions of transit projects have gine unfunded over the last 6 years.

Scratching my head at how convenient this is...

It's not the streetcar planning process' fault that FTA funding fell through. They did an internal review of us and concluded our political climate was up in air, not everyone was on same page, and timeline was in limbo. With everyone on the same page and the timeline more aggressive as originally inspired, maybe better results.

At this point it may be worth making some substantial bus service fixes that RAISE funding and service expectations, just to get all transit advocates back under the same umbrella.

Tell you what Mr. Blitzer, instead of presenting this as a he said she said, why don't you recommend to your pal Shadid that he stop dividing transit supporters with his factually errant, strategically frivolous assaults on the streetcar.

Guru, I'm 100% for the streetcar, what more do I have to do, name my first born child OKC Streetcar? I'm for doing the streetcar on an aggressive timeline and getting city buses a little more funding AND a limited service area so that we can very quickly give OKC citizens a first-rate transit system. What we currently fund transit with is a pittance, which is why we have such low expectations in the present.


I am going to be honest Spartan - that reads like Shadid gave it to you to post. :)

Huh? That's out of left field. I'll admit I'm friends with Ed, but I'm also friends with Jeff and personally believe the streetcar is the most important project for OKC's future. I can't help but laugh at this post given that I've done some heavy lifting for the project and developed a formal background on transit issues, though not nearly as much as Jeff, Betts, and everyone else on the committee.

Urban Pioneer - didn't realize that was the given reason, when was that handed down? I thought last time we talked about that, back around the time that Ft Worth actually rejected FTA funding, you'd said they were making notes of our political schizophrenia..

Guru, I'm 100% for the streetcar, what more do I have to do, name my first born child OKC Streetcar? I'm for doing the streetcar on an aggressive timeline and getting city buses a little more funding AND a limited service area so that we can very quickly give OKC citizens a first-rate transit system. What we currently fund transit with is a pittance, which is why we have such low expectations in the present.



Huh? That's out of left field. I'll admit I'm friends with Ed, but I'm also friends with Jeff and personally believe the streetcar is the most important project for OKC's future. I can't help but laugh at this post given that I've done some heavy lifting for the project and developed a formal background on transit issues, though not nearly as much as Jeff, Betts, and everyone else on the committee.

Urban Pioneer - didn't realize that was the given reason, when was that handed down? I thought last time we talked about that, back around the time that Ft Worth actually rejected FTA funding, you'd said they were making notes of our political schizophrenia..

Sorry, your post was unclear. You didn't address the germane topic, which was that Shadid somehow convinced the Gazette to provide him a forum for yet another rant that was ridiculously -- and possibly intentionally -- erroneous (and easily disproven given the Gazette's own archives) about the streetcar.

Perhaps I misinterpreted your post as some kind of mushy plea for a big Kumbaya moment when there's only one guy throwing stones. This territory is well trod, but just in case, allow me to boil it down:

Streetcar supporters support an improved bus system (and overall improved transit system), while Ed Shadid has gone off on a multi-month crusade against the streetcar (while continuing to fail to take an understandable public position on the approved MAPS project).

There's no point in splitting hairs here: there's really only one guy dividing transit supporters, and his last name is Shadid.

Haha, be careful Spartan. It sucks to be suddenly missunderstood on this thread.

Example... Most certainly a typo but it makes you wonder about the mindset of the author.


Working together
Shadid may appear to be the city council’s lone maverick in terms of transit, but the first-term councilman is adamant about making the bus system the No. 1 public transportation priority.



Couch suggested the modern, sleek-looking streetcars will take Oklahoma City to the next level in terms of downtown growth.

“It will enhance downtown and benefit the people who work, live and visit here,” he said. “It will spurn new development and should be an economic boom. No doubt about that.”






Amazing how one letter can change the entire context.

Soonerguru you are exactly right. I am sick and tired of politicians using the line 'just agree with me this time and I will agree with you next time'. Sorry, it doesn't work that way anymore. Shadid is the one that strayed from the comprehensive mass transit reservation (if he was ever actually on it) and is the one on an island by himself. I have no interest in joining him on that island. I want a comprehensive scalable multi-modal mass transit system that connects the world, state, region, community, and neighborhood to the front door.

Airline/HSR to the world
Rail to the state
Commuter rail to the region
Streetcar to the community
Bus to the neighborhood
and walk to the front door.

Sorry, your post was unclear. You didn't address the germane topic, which was that Shadid somehow convinced the Gazette to provide him a forum for yet another rant that was ridiculously -- and possibly intentionally -- erroneous (and easily disproven given the Gazette's own archives) about the streetcar.

Perhaps I misinterpreted your post as some kind of mushy plea for a big Kumbaya moment when there's only one guy throwing stones. This territory is well trod, but just in case, allow me to boil it down:

Streetcar supporters support an improved bus system (and overall improved transit system), while Ed Shadid has gone off on a multi-month crusade against the streetcar (while continuing to fail to take an understandable public position on the approved MAPS project).

There's no point in splitting hairs here: there's really only one guy dividing transit supporters, and his last name is Shadid.

Hard to say Guru, this is pretty divisive stuff. So the only germane topic is to discuss just how off-base Ed Shadid is? Not whether or not transit in OKC is funded well enough in general? For the life of me, I don't know why anyone who supports the streetcar wouldn't also want to get some real funding for bus service as well. I don't take that as an attack on the streetcar (although you're right Ed has clearly made some anti-streetcar comments it appears) per se because we all should be able to agree that OKC's bus service is shameful.

Just for a comparison's sake, OKC's transit budget this FY was $24 million. Pittsburgh, one city that offers top transit, had a budget around $430 million if I remember right. Cleveland provided over 48 million transit rides on a $256 million budget - not including about $300 million of revolving capital projects currently in the pipeline.

As for my earlier post, perhaps it was a kumbaya attempt (is that so bad?), but either way I am quite confident in your abilities to read thinly veiled comments that are actually quite strong.. give it another read ;)

We all agree mass transit is underfunded but only a very small minority are pitting one mode of mass transit against the other. It isn't like we are saying 'streetcar and bus' and Shadid is saying 'bus and streetcar'. He is just saying 'bus'. Where is there room in that for compromise short of 'hey, lets just pick what we have in common and build that', because if it comes down to having just one I pick the streetcar.

So the only germane topic is to discuss just how off-base Ed Shadid is?

Yes.

Not whether or not transit in OKC is funded well enough in general? For the life of me, I don't know why anyone who supports the streetcar wouldn't also want to get some real funding for bus service as well. I don't take that as an attack on the streetcar (although you're right Ed has clearly made some anti-streetcar comments it appears) per se because we all should be able to agree that OKC's bus service is shameful.

Just for a comparison's sake, OKC's transit budget this FY was $24 million. Pittsburgh, one city that offers top transit, had a budget around $430 million if I remember right. Cleveland provided over 48 million transit rides on a $256 million budget - not including about $300 million of revolving capital projects currently in the pipeline.

As for my earlier post, perhaps it was a kumbaya attempt (is that so bad?

Great points in a "sane" conversation where people are working together to achieve broad transit improvements.

My personal "feelings" about all of this have evolved from profound anger at Ed to extraordinary disappointment in Ed.

The hand has been extended by volunteers to him and been bitten every time in the kumbaya like effort you suggest.

I would also add that there are currently some profound historic opportunities to actually promote and achieve these broad transit improvements. He has burned whatever political capital he had just when its needed the most.

Thus the disapointment.

Can someone post links to the stuff Ed has actually said? Any video of his transit forum?

I must not be finding the same recent remarks

I'll gladly post them and a full complimentary rebuttal. To be honest though, I think most of us would rather have this fabricated controversy die away. It's an incredible waste of time to debate assertions and inuendo made without proper context.

Its a huge waste of energy when everybody could be working together.

I've come to realize that these controversies propogated by him have nothing to do with actually pursuing a meaningful resolution.

Can someone post links to the stuff Ed has actually said? Any video of his transit forum?

I must not be finding the same recent remarks

I realize you live in Cleveland, but, wow. I'm a little taken aback. No one really wants to give him any more air time at this point, so, put your fantastic research skills to work (starting with this and another thread on OKCTalk).