Any kind of line on its own to HSC will be hard to justify for week and day-round ridership. I would argue that pushing through to at least MLK and 23rd at the same time makes a lot more sense and would be more viable.

Neither of the 23rd or MLK are dense area, lets stop trying to over extend every mass transit system to the point of uselessness everywhere they serve.

Very telling that a diverging viewpoint of how to best serve public transit is quickly chased away from this thread....

What is it telling of?

OKCTalk is not comprised of 2 posters, neither is this thread. There are many people who participate in this discussion, and who have for years, who are completely neutral from the route process. Just as in other threads, ideas that are outside the box ("diverging viewpoint) are usually embraced by this community if they make sense. Just because a "diverging viewpoint" is presented doesn't automatically make it a good idea. Obviously the many people on this thread don't agree on every idea presented. C'mon Steve, you know better than that.

Catch 22 - I agree with with your post about the HSC and in my opinion it was one of the areas that needs to be targeted for urbanization. That is why I voiced my displeasure over the three most recent projects for the area: Toby Keith Hotel, the Embassy Suites, and the OIPA headquarters. This area has to start being made walkable and the parking lots replaced with residential, retail, and even non-medical related businesses. Designed properly, the streecar could help direct that growth, but you are right, it can't meander through the district while we are waiting for densification to occur. The City needs to create an urban over-lay district for the HSC area that requires new construction to focus on walkability and encourages in-fill and retro-fit. With 10,000 employees in the area (even more if you add in the Capitol complex) this areas could easily support over 1,000 housing units - and probably more.

Lots of time to think. To be blunt, some of the points were so telling, I will just have to agree to disagree and walk away. Most of the concern for the treatment or disdain for the bus system was validated in other threads. I'm not going to be here long enough to suffer much more. Lol. Back to a city where buses are embraced and rail is done to enhance corridors.

This is the problem with message boards. It's difficult to cover all points in a post and keep it short enough to be readable. So, impressions are created that may be inaccurate. I'm not sure many people who really care about transit have disdain for a bus system. Any disdain I've noticed is for our bus system, which is user unfriendly. Speaking for myself, and I'm the only person I should be speaking for, I think an improved transit system is essential if we want to move forward as a city. I'm a bus rider from way back, so personally I'm fine with bus transit. But, I will say, because I've talked to many, many people about this, that it will be very difficult to get long-term funding for only a bus system. Right or wrong, buses are perceived by many as slow, noisy, dirty and user unfriendly. I don't think buying more buses and putting in stops and signage will help this perception immediately. I think we need our population to buy into multi-modal transit, with the bus system benefiting as a result. By using means of transit that are more popular, you will gradually change the perception of buses. A regional transit authority is what we should all be working towards, as that will help us get funding for all modes of transit. If we label ourselves as pro-bus and anti-rail or pro-rail and anti-bus we play into the hands of people who don't care about any forms of mass transit and we will all lose.

I agress Betts - OKC needs a regional mass transit network that consist of commuter rail, streetcars, and buses. Anyone who thinks an effective regional system can be built with 1 out of 3, or even 2 out of 3 isn't living in the 21st century. It takes all 3 working together feeding each other. Throw in connections to HSR, long distance traditional trains, airlines, and other regional systems and the synergy is multiplied (say connecting OKC regional mass transit system with Wichita and Tulsa via an express train).

In a perfect system you should be able to get from 2310 NW 20th St in OKC to 2211 East 39th St in Tulsa without owning a car in less than 1,000 steps.

I agress Betts - OKC needs a regional mass transit network that consist of commuter rail, streetcars, and buses. Anyone who thinks an effective regional system can be built with 1 out of 3, or even 2 out of 3 isn't living in the 21st century. It takes all 3 working together feeding each other. Throw in connections to HSR, long distance traditional trains, airlines, and other regional systems and the synergy is multiplied (say connecting OKC regional mass transit system with Wichita and Tulsa via an express train).

In a perfect system you should be able to get from 2310 NW 20th St in OKC to 2211 East 39th St in Tulsa without owning a car in less than 1,000 steps.

exactly... this is why Just the Facts and i are able to go back and forth on issues... because we both agree that regional mass transit network that consists of a multitude of options that are all interconnected for ease of use, we just sometimes might disagree with how exactly to accomplish this the best. that is what the forums are best for. The people who don't agree with the first statement above, i would like to think are few in numbers... it's just a matter of people having different opinions of how to get to that point we all know we want.

...Ever since I started to see routes tossed around, I've been disappointed with how apparent the whole project has been aimed at TOD. Treating the streetcar like a tool of economic development first and not transit.

I agree 100% with this. Instead of using it for Economic development that will hopefully later work for transit... it should be built for the best route as a transit system, and that alone will spur economic development along it.

$120 is 7 years of our bus system's budget. If we could double our budget for 7 years, think of how much we could improve transit. Just think about that.

But there lies the problem with this debate/discussion that Councilman Shadid is trying to create. We can't think about it that way as far as MAPS 3 is concerned.

MAPS only pays for infrastructure. Not operational funding.

That is something that he has distinctly not explained to the public when has had these forums and broader discussions.

He has and is propagating the illusion that we now have a choice between streetcars and buses. We don't. That's not what we promised the voters and that's not what they voted on.

At best we could build some bus shelters, but then we would need a permanent funding source to maintain them.

If we all worked together, without division, we could probably develop a comprehensive funding solution for all transit modes (particularly bus) as part of a comprehensive regional transit solution.

if we (okc) were to divert the 120 mil to the bus system (and as UP said maps money is for capital projects and can't be used to just up the bus system routes/funding) but say we built lots of new shelters and bought new buses .. we would at the same time kill MAPS. It would be dead and the public trust in voting for it would be over

of course i think Councilman Shadid is fine with maps dying .. fortunately most of the council are not

Ever since I started to see routes tossed around, I've been disappointed with how apparent the whole project has been aimed at TOD. Treating the streetcar like a tool of economic development first and not transit.

HSC is a good concept exactly for the reasons that others think it isn't. We don't need a system that will attract just the dinner crowd. We need a winning route. Since we already take a lot of people there already, just inefficiently, I find it a useful consideration. The discussion has centered around the 'sub-urbanness' of the area which again, illustrates how completely different my thoughts are. We are already serving this district with multiple routes. I'd like to get ridership information to HSC but I've been on every route that goes through there and it is quite a lot of folks. Just just a few an hour.

Jill, I understand you talk to a lot of people. But please know I do too. Our bus system needs work, but it does work and it works for thousand and thousands of people. We can agree that it needs improvement but it sounded to me like you were suggesting we ignore it simply because we need to wipe it clean and start over. I think we'd like to do that to a lot of things but that's not reality. We have to make incremental changes and improvements. There are some great people working hard to do this and some folks like me feel that if we raise our hand and ask how 120M is going to improve the bus system, the only response we are worthy of getting is that more people will fall in love with transit because of the streetcar. I've said already, I can't swallow that.

The streetcar route that we selected, after months and months of looking at it, driving it, thinking about it, was absolutely not aimed at only TOD. It was aimed at ridership, TOD, connection of downtown attractions: city shaping and city serving. It's impossible to leave TOD out of the equation, because that too is something we need downtown. If people didn't care about improving our downtown and urban experience, this forum would likely exist with far fewer readers, far fewer posts. I suspect the two busiest forums are those that look at urban development. But that was never the only consideration. And, it was never only the dinner crowd that we considered either. We considered people who live near the north part of the route who might work downtown or in Bricktown, we considered visitors to OKC, as well as people who live in Deep Deuce and the suburbs. We only have 5 to 6 miles, and we looked for a route that would maximize the number of users. If it encourages TOD - great. If it is popular enough that it encourages people who would not ordinarily look at improving mass transit in OKC to do so - even better. Also, no one on the streetcar committee is so committed to the route that we won't be open to alternate suggestions. That's why we were so eager to have more analysis from people experienced in the field. Many of us, you included, have done a lot to educate ourselves on the subject, but none of us can claim to be experts in the field.

In an ideal world, we would have gotten the federal grant and could serve both the Health Sciences Center and the Heritage Hills/Mesta Park/Midtown/St. Anthony's/CBD/Core to Shore/Bricktown/Deep Deuce areas. I too would like to see the Health Sciences Center numbers, but since we have no bus route that is comparable to the recommended streetcar route, we're going to be comparing apples and estimates. I still suspect the HSC route is underutilized, based on my personal observations, but I am not opposed to looking at the numbers. I don't see it as a winning route, nor do I see it as a consciousness-raising route, which is another important consideration to be added to ridership, TOD and important connections. But that is my personal observation and opinion, not gospel.

As Jeff has said, we can't use the $120 million for anything but capitol improvements. I hate to keep harping on it, but this is why we need an RTA. We can't improve our bus system without a significant permanent increase in the funding source. I would like to see our bus system improved. But, MAPS 3 money is not the solution and united we stand.......

Jeff, none of my comments should be construed to mean I have any less respect for the work you guys have done. I really hope you know that. I also know that you've been in politics long enough to recognize when people are sharing their opinions, which may be different, but still have no problem respecting each other in the process. Like you, I want the streetcar to be a wild success.

Of course. Same here. We fought for buses too "before the docket was set". Many of us still continue to fight for buses. People forget that.

Regarding the route, I have no problem with improvements or changes. Downtown itself is changing and we have to respond to that. Personally I hope that the streetcar is so well designed and successful, that it justifies direct linkage to The Plaza District, OCU, or 23rd street to unite those areas with downtown.

The first phase is always the hardest. As Shadid would say, "The empirical data supports that." lol

If the money cannot be used for buses, how can it be used for a streetcar? I suppose the rails are infrastructure, but the streetcars are no different than a bus. If memory serves, the ballot did say something to the effect that the council had the right to change whatever they wanted to change.

Technically, we could buy a hundred buses. But we certainly wouldn't have the operating revenues to run them.

Streetcar Operations and Maintenance costs are within the manageable budget of the City Manager. A hundred buses are not. Also, the potential for designing the streetcar system and its related MAPS 3 infrastructure so that it is self sufficient is there. Examples would be constructing streetcar stops that offer advertising, parking garage construction/revenues, and leasing space in Santa-Fe Station. But that is all part of a "system".

The O&M on buses is so vastly different that it just simply requires more investment than the MAPS 3 transit program budget could afford. The streetcar proposal is simply of a manageable size to either be self sufficient or be absorbed in the general budget depending on what the council wants to do.

I am going to go back to my 3 street car lines all serving the downtown area. While these routes might to adjust a little bit as the result of engineerng studies I think they maiximize connectivity to all existing points of interest, downtown employers, hotels, and residential areas as well as provide ample opportunity for new developement to include urban greenfield (undeveloped blocks and large tracts) redevelopment of existing buildings (vacant space above 1st floor) and urban in-fill (small lots between exisiting buildings).


http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/North.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/South.jpg

Red Line
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Black Line
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no chance politically that you are putting a line through HH and going by the new CC and the maps 3 park are both musts

That is fine, take the yellow line distance from north of the Edge and extend it to run by the convention center on the south (assuming that is where the convention center goes).

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Yellow_zps727b2035.jpg

That is fine, take the yellow line distance from north of the Edge and extend it to run by the convention center on the south (assuming that is where the convention center goes).

are these all double tracked?

are these all double tracked?

Yes - the total distance comes to just a shade over 7 miles but some distance could be trimmed like having the black line turn around on Walker instead of going all the way to Lee or having the stubs of the yellow and red only be single track where they diverge at Plaza Court. That gets it down in the 6 mile range. Double tracking of those segments could be done during expansion (like say if the yellow line turned east on 13th st and went to the HSC and Capitol or the red line went up Classen to OCU)

Yes - the total distance comes to just a shade over 7 miles but some distance could be trimmed like having the black line turn around on Walker instead of going all the way to Lee or having the stubs of the yellow and red only be single track where they diverge at Plaza Court. That gets it down in the 6 mile range. Double tracking of those segments could be done during expansion (like say if the yellow line turned east on 13th st and went to the HSC and Capitol or the red line went up Classen to OCU)

instead of running it down broadway between 10th and 4th... couldn't you just run it down robinson the whole way? people should be able to walk the block over to broadway... while i ideally think that running it down broadway would be the way to go... traffic on this road can get crazy, especially with all of the traffic lights. i would just think that it might be more efficient to run it down robinson the whole way rather than the block shift over for just a few blocks north and south.

Automobile Alley is a corridor, not a neighborhood. Transit should go down corridors not adjacent to them. As for Broadway itself - it need some serious traffic calming anyhow. It way too wide and cars are going far too fast to make it safe for pedestrains.

Automobile Alley is a corridor, not a neighborhood. Transit should go down corridors not adjacent to them. As for Broadway itself - it need some serious traffic calming anyhow. It way too wide and cars are going far too fast to make it safe for pedestrains.

while i understand your reasoning of corridor vs. non-corridor, i tend to disagree in this instance.

as for the second half of your comment... i agree. Broadway needs some serious traffic calming and streamlining. it is not pedestrian friendly at all.

How about we split the difference..... and do a couplet?

I like seeing streetcars on more intimate environments. Its slow moving and just feels better when it isn't competing with fast traffic. If Broadways isn't drastically improved, Robinson would be my pick.

I thought there were plans to have angled on street parking on both sides of Broadway through AA.

Very telling that a diverging viewpoint of how to best serve public transit is quickly chased away from this thread....

What are you talking about, Steve?

Are you suggesting the "divergent view" of taking money from the MAPS Streetcar, which was approved by voters, should be embraced?

Your innuendo is ridiculous.

Lots of time to think. To be blunt, some of the points were so telling, I will just have to agree to disagree and walk away. Most of the concern for the treatment or disdain for the bus system was validated in other threads. I'm not going to be here long enough to suffer much more. Lol. Back to a city where buses are embraced and rail is done to enhance corridors.

I don't want to argue either, you just suggested that I and others questioning Shadid's motives were possibly "paranoid." Now that he's on record, I think it's worth reevaluating your earlier suggestion.

What are you talking about, Steve?

Are you suggesting the "divergent view" of taking money from the MAPS Streetcar, which was approved by voters, should be embraced?

Your innuendo is ridiculous.

In who's endo? Huh?

How about we split the difference..... and do a couplet?

I would rather it go down Robinson than do that.

Sorry my previous post on this subject was a bit short. I was in a hurry so let me add a little now.

A couple of reason why I think it should go down Broadway through AA is that you need to reward the early adopters of urbanism. They spent a long time, a lot of money, and tons of effort and in my opinion putting the streetcar a block away would be an insult to them - but more importantly, AA provides a destination with good opportunity for in-fill. We don't have the luxury of building ridership from scratch through TOD, we need riders on day one and AA can help delver that.

As for the streetscape itself, to answer Sid's question/comment, putting angled parking adjacent to streetcar tracks is not best practice.

Perhaps this has been covered earlier in the thread, but does anyone know how frequently the streetcar is expected to run?

OK. So this is a new one. Shadid just posted the following on Facebook:


Ed Shadid
Streetcars are cool but we need to understand what they can and cannot do and what we need to do to make them successful. If not running in it's own lane the streetcar does not represent rapid transit. The Portland streetcar is scheduled to travel at 6mph assuming it isn't stopped by someone double parked or a car accident. At that speed are streetcars competing with cars or with walking? Gazette quote prior to MAPS3 vote "It will be able to cut through traffic like a hot knife through butter"

Is he saying the Portland streetcar travels at 6 mph? Also, won't the planned OKC streetcars have the technology to change traffic signals? Anyone care to answer this charge with some substance?

That quote was made by me in the very first article. It was based on the assumption that we would indeed follow "best practices" in streetcar design though using signal prioritization.The 6mph is probably "average speed" incorporating the stopping periods at streetcar stations. So that's a misnomer. Streetcars can typically move 30 - 40 mph along with the speed of regular automobiles. The 6mph is probably factoring "dwell times" and obviously the quantity of stops on a line.Quite frankly, Portland cannot be compared to OKC in every instance.

I've not seen angled parking along a streetcar route. Is that best practice?

As I know by now that you're being facetious, I think it was a plan before the streetcar came along. They may have thrown it out when Broadway was chosen as a streetcar corridor. It was around the time that they had also been talking about adding on street parking on Reno though Bricktown, thus turning it into a 2-lane thoroughfare.

That quote was made by me in the very first article. It was based on the assumption that we would indeed follow "best practices" in streetcar design though using signal prioritization.The 6mph is probably "average speed" incorporating the stopping periods at streetcar stations. So that's a misnomer. Streetcars can typically move 30 - 40 mph along with the speed of regular automobiles. The 6mph is probably factoring "dwell times" and obviously the quantity of stops on a line.Quite frankly, Portland cannot be compared to OKC in every instance.

It would seem to me that a streetcar that has a 3 mile route only competes with walking if you're happy to walk 1-3 miles to your destination. Given the weather in Oklahoma at least 6 months of the year, I rarely walk that far for anything but exercise. Then we have the people who complain about the distance from the parking lot to their destination. Combine that with signal prioritization and I don't think we have to worry about competing with walking as a transit option.

As I know by now that you're being facetious, I think it was a plan before the streetcar came along. They may have thrown it out when Broadway was chosen as a streetcar corridor. It was around the time that they had also been talking about adding on street parking on Reno though Bricktown, thus turning it into a 2-lane thoroughfare.

the city was against the idea of making broadway 2 lane the parking plan was scaled down to parking on 1 side of the street .. with 2 lanes south bound and 1 lane north bound .. that is if it even will be completed

It would seem to me that a streetcar that has a 3 mile route only competes with walking if you're happy to walk 1-3 miles to your destination.

Thank you - I was thinking the exact same thing the second I read that comment.

"Nobody knew they were voting for a streetcar"..."we'll be sued if we build a streetcar"...and now the latest..."people can walk faster than a streetcar"

Just can't wait for the next one..."streetcars contribute to global warming"...or..."riding streetcars leads to obesity"...LOL

Folks, if you really care about these issues, this is EXTREMELY important stuff here. Litterally a transcendental opportunity to fundamentally change how things are done. Enough with the pseudo controversy's for now. lol Let's get the inaction on rail issues out of ODOT.

WANTING A BROADER RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM BEYOND MAPS 3 STREETCAR?

Read this from Rep Charlie Joyner.

These initiatives are happening now and needs your help!

1. HB2180 would remove the Rails Division from ODOT and create the Oklahoma Railways Commission whose Commissioners, appointed by the Governor, would be rail experienced and knowledgeable. This act will not grow government but instead makes government smarter and more focused. Oklahoma is seventh in the nation in total tonnage, equaling 882-million tons per year shipped by rail into, from, or through Oklahoma and projections are for it to increase by 88% by 2030. There is also a huge interest in developing and expanding passenger and commuter rail in Oklahoma. I feel it is vital Oklahoma takes these steps looking to its future economic development and recognizing the success of the Space and Aeronautics Commission who was similarly established.

2. HB 2187 establishes the ‘right of first refusal’ on the sale of any rail property owned by the Department of Transportation and being leased or operated by a private entity. This bill if enacted would protect railroad companies that invest millions of dollars in the lines they presently lease, as well as their shippers who have chosen to locate along those lines; shippers who count on the railroads as part of their supply chain and their distribution network. SB584 is a similar bill that I am supporting as the House Author. This is the correct thing to do when dealing with companies doing business with the state of Oklahoma.

As the previous House Vice-Chair of Transportation and presently the House Chair of the Transportation Committee, I have been very involved on issues concerning our Rail industry in Oklahoma. This email is to advise you of the two railroad bills I have authored with Speaker T.W. Shannon as co-author and Senator Mike Schultz as the Senate Principal Author.

Attached are HB2187 and HB2180 for your review. I ask for your support in my effort at strengthening the rail industry in Oklahoma. Please contact your senators, representatives, and Governor immediately, asking for interest and passage of these bills as they are moving through the Legislative process.

Thank you for your consideration,
Charlie Joyner
Representative Charlie Joyner
Oklahoma House of Representatives
District 95

CONTACT YOUR STATE SENATOR OR REPRESENTATIVE AND TELL THEM TO PASS THESE TWO BILLS!

From Bob Kemper, leading this issue, on Facebook last night-

Friends: We won the second battle on HB-2187 on the House Floor by a 92-0 vote! Now to do the same in the Senate.

HB-2180. The Oklahoma Railways Commission bill promises to be more of a dog fight, but it is not too late for you to call or email your Rep or Sent offering your support for passage.

HB 2180 passed the House 72-18 this morning. Write your Senators and ask them to pass these bills. Then ask your legislators to override a very possible veto by Governor Fallin.

HB 2180 passed the House 72-18 this morning. Write your Senators and ask them to pass these bills. Then ask your legislators to override a very possible veto by Governor Fallin.Done! Really hope to see these two bills pass. :)

Can MAPS 3 money be used for buses? The very vague language in the Ordinance 23,942 www.okc.gov/maps3/resolution.pdf (numbered pages 2 & 3) seems to be pretty inclusive/all encompassing as to what the money can be used for. Can anyone point to specific language in it that would exclude buses? While it does say "only for the limited purpose of City capitol improvements", it goes on to define it like this: "the term 'City capitol improvement' shall mean without limitation any one or more of the following..."

When it comes to "capitol improvements", is there a legal distinction between Streetcars and Buses? In other words, if they can use MAPS 3 money to purchase a Streetcar, what is stopping them from using the money to buy a Bus?

Does that mean that they will spend it on something other than what was promised in the campaign? Maybe. Maybe not. It all depends on if the voters will hold them accountable if they try.

When it comes to "capitol improvements", is there a legal distinction between Streetcars and Buses? In other words, if they can use MAPS 3 money to purchase a Streetcar, what is stopping them from using the money to buy a Bus?

Mostly that it is already unlikely they can buy everything they promised with the money they are projected to have, so they are going to have to get as much of what they promised with what they have. Without some new stream of money they would not have the money to operate it but that is a different issue.

Can MAPS 3 money be used for buses? The very vague language in the Ordinance 23,942 www.okc.gov/maps3/resolution.pdf (numbered pages 2 & 3) seems to be pretty inclusive/all encompassing as to what the money can be used for. Can anyone point to specific language in it that would exclude buses? While it does say "only for the limited purpose of City capitol improvements", it goes on to define it like this: "the term 'City capitol improvement' shall mean without limitation any one or more of the following..."

When it comes to "capitol improvements", is there a legal distinction between Streetcars and Buses? In other words, if they can use MAPS 3 money to purchase a Streetcar, what is stopping them from using the money to buy a Bus?

Does that mean that they will spend it on something other than what was promised in the campaign? Maybe. Maybe not. It all depends on if the voters will hold them accountable if they try.

Which is precisely what the anti-MAPS people would like to see. Right, Larry? Because nothing will increase the likelihood of the next MAPS vote losing like not giving the voters what they think they voted for. Best way to scuttle MAPS once and for all.....

Which is precisely what the anti-MAPS people would like to see. Right, Larry? Because nothing will increase the likelihood of the next MAPS vote losing like not giving the voters what they think they voted for. Best way to scuttle MAPS once and for all.....

If scuttling future MAPS initiatives is the underlying motivation (even if ancillary) for creating this ridiculous, artificial rift between groups who support improving transit in OKC, that is not a positive commentary on those responsible. There is absolutely nothing productive to come out of the divisive nature of the discussions we have seen lately.

The goal for just about every transit advocacy group I know of is a regional transit authority. MAPS is the most likely funding mechanism to jump start a long overdue rebuilding of our neglected transit system as basically defined in the Fixed Guideway Study. While certain aspects of FGS are likely obsolete, the streetcar circulator with connections at a transit hub is a logical place to begin. Our pathetic bus system is a SEPARATE issue and could be fixed with a little political will and administrative backbone. Integrate the two effectively and then work on getting the RTA approved and established.

Read Exhibit A of the MAPS 3 City Council resolution approved on September 29, 2009:

MAPS 3 Resolution (http://www.okc.gov/maps3/resolution.pdf)

"The intended MAPS 3 projects include the following:

2. A new rail-based streetcar system..."

Obviously, buses are not rail-based. No room for misinterpretation on that one.

Hutch it also said: ...plus funding for other transit infrastructure as appropriate, And no numbers were put to these maps projects. What about gps, text, smartphone apps, better shelters, wifi, traffic signal coordination, and other things to help the transit system that would help buses and the street car for people that live and work in OKC?

David, I suspect we are going to need all $130 million to actually do what we promised the voters. A 5 - 6 mile modern streetcar system and buying Santa-Fe Station and fixing it up.

If Ed wants more, you can be rest assured that the entire transit constituency will jump right behind him. But my guess is that it will have to come from some of the other ambiguous areas in the overall MAPS that the Council has yet to hash out. IE- changes, contingencies, and such.

But right now, I would suggest he actually work with some of us that have been around a lot longer to accomplish those broader changes.

If not, oh well. You can't say that hands weren't extended many times and promptly chopped of.

Hutch it also said: ...plus funding for other transit infrastructure as appropriate, And no numbers were put to these maps projects. What about gps, text, smartphone apps, better shelters, wifi, traffic signal coordination, and other things to help the transit system that would help buses and the street car for people that live and work in OKC?

Yeah, but you don't get the latter without the former. If Shadid gets the city to only spend the tax money collected on only the latter then that is a failure of MAPS 3 appropriations.

What the heck is wrong with COTPA - or paying someone with the capability - conducting a thorough analysis of what can be done to improve bus service right now with the equipment available right now? There is nearly universal agreement the present service model is far beyond broke - hub and spoke does not adequately serve any current or potential rider demographic.

Of course we need to improve bus service, but not at the expense of the first step toward restoring a multimodal transit system. If there is a real desire to improve the bus system (and not just kill MAPS), then get to work and better use the assets we currently possess. The new CNG busses are a very good acquisition that appeal to many people as are the smaller vehicles that replaced those silly trolleys with tires. COTPA needs to regard its users as customers, not riders; and figure out exactly who their customers are, where they are located, and what COTPA can do now to serve them better.

Has there been any serious evaluation of a grid based system with special service for disabled riders?
Has there been serious evaluation of ending the ridiculous advertising/bus stop arrangement?
Should we reduce service area? 622 square miles is a ridiculous area to try to effectively serve with the funding and equipment available.
Reduce service area and increase service frequency?
Identify express corridors and evaluate the viabilty of such corridors?

These issues are all SEPARATE from the streetcar project. To divert funds from the MAPS Streetcar system would be a gross betrayal of the public trust regardless of any semantic games one plays with the language of the council's resolution. The intent of the MAPS3 ballot and the citizens who approved it is very clear.

Hutch it also said: ...plus funding for other transit infrastructure as appropriate, And no numbers were put to these maps projects. What about gps, text, smartphone apps, better shelters, wifi, traffic signal coordination, and other things to help the transit system that would help buses and the street car for people that live and work in OKC?

The complete wording is "...plus funding for other transit infrastructure as appropriate, such as connections to other rail-based systems and/or a transit hub."

While the total dollar amounts allocated for each of the eight MAPS 3 projects were not specifically set out on exhibit A of the resolution, it was made clear to the public by City Council on numerous occassions that of the total $777 million in MAPS tax revenues to be collected, $120 million was to be dedicated to construction of a 5-6 mile, rail-based streetcar system, and that an additional $10 million was to be dedicated to acquisition and development of an intermodal transit hub, including acquisition and development of commuter rail infrastructure necessary to provide connectivity to the hub and streetcar system. The final decisions and funding commitments by those on Council at the time with regard to the transit component of MAPS 3 specifically involved rail transit infrastructure only. There were no decisions or commitments by Council to use any of the $130 million for bus system infrastructure.

Based on the language of the resolution and the stated intent of Council at the time of its passage, my opinion would be that any technological devices, software or other equipment that is employed as part of the streetcar system, intermodal hub or commuter rail system are valid infrastructure components and qualify for funding.

Anyone else not noticing that Ed Shadid is like the second coming of Ernest Istook? He's trying to do his best at keeping the wheels on the bus going round and round, round and round, round and round.

People seem to think that the citizen's voted for specific projects on the ballot. Never happened. The ballot only talked about a tax for a certain period for capital expenditure projects. Sr. Aquatic Centers, how are those coming? Chamber backed the campaign so they get the huge return on their investment. I want the council to make changes when and if they get new/better information. People voted because they want their city to improve. 5 council people could build a 900' Jesus if they want to. How many people think there would be some major backlash from the people if evidence proved building a new expensive convention center was a bad economic idea? Maybe Maps4 should have an open process that picks projects people really want and need, not what a few cook up in back rooms. Almost every neutral observer knows we need improved real transit and a little money for our bus system would go very far in improving.

OK. So this is a new one. Shadid just posted the following on Facebook:



Is he saying the Portland streetcar travels at 6 mph? Also, won't the planned OKC streetcars have the technology to change traffic signals? Anyone care to answer this charge with some substance?


Streetcars are cool but we need to understand what they can and cannot do and what we need to do to make them successful. If not running in it's own lane the streetcar does not represent rapid transit.

A streetcar is supposed to be "rapid transit"? I never knew.

You are right OkieDave - the ballot language was vague so it could pass a court challenge but along with that was a "trust us" from the City.

No one knows what people watched or saw or wanted or presumed or thought or ANYTHING. We only know what was on the ballot and what the people who went to the polls and voted one way or another. A tax for a time period for capital expenditures, NO SPECIFICS WERE THERE. That is the only thing that was "promised" to the voters of that ballot. The only thing. I hope the city council always does what they think is best for the city.

You are right OkieDave - the ballot language was vague so it could pass a court challenge but along with that was a "trust us" from the City.

These are the semantic games I was referring to. Everyone damn well knows what the intent of the MAPS Streetcar/Transit section of the MAPS3 ballot was. Most people also know it was one of the primary reason MAPS3 passed, so the will and desire of OKC's citizens who bothered to vote is just as clear.

This apparent attempt to redirect MAPS Streetcar funds is both misguided and disingenuous. By all means, let's fix the bus system - but first optimize the use of COTPA's current assets instead of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Hey CaptDave, I love data, science, reality and proof, how do you know? "Most people also know it was one of the primary reason MAPS3 passed".

No one knows what people watched or saw or wanted or presumed or thought or ANYTHING. We only know what was on the ballot and what the people who went to the polls and voted one way or another. A tax for a time period for capital expenditures, NO SPECIFICS WERE THERE. That is the only thing that was "promised" to the voters of that ballot. The only thing. I hope the city council always does what they think is best for the city.

If that is all you knew then you weren't paying attention. While I was in Bricktown just before the election the Vote Yes for MAPS III group had an interactive mobile van that showed all of the projects and the streetcar was one of them.

So anyhow - this video should put the issue to rest. Feel free to go straight to 3:39 and hear the Mayor of OKC say the City WILL build a streetcar.

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Pollling and various stories before and after the vote - I really don't think my memory is that far off. (And the video JTF posted is pretty clear at 3:45)

All I am saying is the two issues need not be mutually exclusive. Eliminating one or ignoring either is detrimental. There are plenty of things that I think could be done right now to improve the bus service without angering the very people whose votes will be needed for a RTA or transit heavy MAPS4 which I anticipate will include even more improvements for the bus system.

I think the tone of some of the recent statements is very unfortunate; and counterproductive to present and future transit initiatives in OKC.

Why in 2007 bond issue did the voters vote on 8 separate votes for each thing? And all passed. If it is about a bond for the voters, why not do massive scientific polling of the voters now and what the voters thought and want now and see where they are today. The street car was was not a transit tool it was a political tool to get the turd in the punchbown passed - the convention center. State law says no log rolling, city circumvented state law in maps 3. Why because polling for convention center was so poor they could not put it on its own for an up/down vote. POOR PUBLIC POLICY. If you care about the BOND of people you don't log roll and shove the junk projects along with the popular projects. Unless you DONT CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE and just want to use them to get what powerful moneyed interests want.

Hutch it also said: ...plus funding for other transit infrastructure as appropriate, And no numbers were put to these maps projects. What about gps, text, smartphone apps, better shelters, wifi, traffic signal coordination, and other things to help the transit system that would help buses and the street car for people that live and work in OKC?

I would expect more from you than abject sophistry. You may be a touch arrogant at times and even doggedly obstinate, but you are not stupid. News flash: neither are OKC voters, despite your elitist viewpoint that their MAPS votes don't count because some lawyer could make a case about the ballot language. If this is the shingle you want to hang your argument on, then the entire basis of your argument is pathetic.

We get it: You and Ed Shadid HATE MAPS. Try taking that in front of the voters of OKC and see where that gets you. Don Quixote had better luck tilting at windmills. This isn't debate class. OKC citizens actually expect their MAPS votes to matter. I suspect this is difficult for you to accept.

I like how the mayor also said (about 1:45) that OKC has police and fire protection that is the envy of the nation. Last I checked, our police are outnumbered 645:1. Gonna have to email the mayor and see if his once recorded and hopefully not forgotten stance on streetcar is still the same.