Ok, but they still have to cross at the intersections, thru the street where cars are turning in front of them. If drivers of cars can't see that there's a moving object in their blind spot to their immediate left that's half way between the size of a standard vehicle and a school bus, then it's probably still going to happen in Oklahoma City whether the streetcar travels in a lane of traffic or not.

The situtation you're describing happens everyday in OKC and we don't have streetcars yet. Who knows, maybe the bad drivers (or atleast the ones not used to driving downtown) will be the ones on the streetcar so the chance of an accident will actually go down. We know this, the less people driving the less chance of an accident.

Of course it does...but I want to see video from a streetcar in OKC on YouTube. :-)

Of course it does...but I want to see video from a streetcar in OKC on YouTube. :-)

Here you go.

jd2a1v9X8bQ

lol, preferrably the real deal. ;-)

The final Intermodal Transportation Hub Study has been accepted and authority given to the city to negotiate the purchase of the Santa Fe station and surrounding properties.

Highlights below, full summary here (http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/intermodal.pdf):



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit4.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit5.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit6.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit7.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit8.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit9.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit10.jpg

Can someone explain this chart? Am I reading this correct that there would be 4 regional lines as follows with peak 30 minute headways:

Blue Line: Edmond-Norman
Red Line: Edmond-MidWest City
Yellow Line:Norman-Airport-MidWest City
Orange Line: NE OKC - Yukon

Since Edmond is listed twice would that be 2 trains from Edmond (15 minutes apartment I assume) or would it be one train doing some kind of color sharing?

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit3.jpg

Can someone explain this chart? Am I reading this correct that there would be 4 regional lines as follows with peak 30 minute headways:

Blue Line: Edmond-Norman
Red Line: Edmond-MidWest City
Yellow Line:Norman-Airport-MidWest City
Orange Line: NE OKC - Yukon

Since Edmond is listed twice would that be 2 trains from Edmond (15 minutes apartment I assume) or would it be one train doing some kind of color sharing?

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit3.jpg

It is depiction with possible future lines running through the hub that might be added beyond the first rounds, they were wanting to verify that reasonable levels of growth could be handled at that site.

UP: Has there been any discussion on what the route to the Plaza District would look like?

Presumbably accross on 13th, up Classen, west on 16th, and north on Blackwelder.

We need to properly study it further.

It could go directly from Classen Dr to 16th, though probably not as the neighborhood will likely object. Is going through the Plaza district more likely than just reclaiming part of Classen? Since the street still has the gradual turning radius from when it was a rail line one could be built all the way to 104th with practically no right of way acquisition (though there is not a lot of reason to go that far with it now).

It could go directly from Classen Dr to 16th, though probably not as the neighborhood will likely object. Is going through the Plaza district more likely than just reclaiming part of Classen? Since the street still has the gradual turning radius from when it was a rail line one could be built all the way to 104th (though there is not a lot of reason to go that far with it, max probably the rail line near Chesapeake's campus if a commuter station goes there).

All the way up to CHK would pretty expensive. I think in the short term, something along the lines of [Walker:13th:Classen:16th:Blackwelder:23rd:Walker] would be a good route.

This also may not be a popular opinion currently, but I do think that 23rd is a far more important district than The Plaza. It's already a major thorough-fair, and as more development and redevelopment takes place, it has more room to grow into a complete urban experience.

All the way up to CHK would pretty expensive. I think in the short term, something along the lines of [Walker:13th:Classen:16th:Blackwelder:23rd:Walker] would be a good route.

This also may not be a popular opinion currently, but I do think that 23rd is a far more important district than The Plaza. It's already a major thorough-fair, and as more development and redevelopment takes place, it has more room to grow into a complete urban experience.

I was not thinking that it would have to go all the way near Chesapeake, just that that was the most extreme in our lifetimes it might go. The more I was looking at 16th and Blackwelder the less feasible I thought they were.

Well there are many theories on where and how. None of them in any of those areas are bad. Traversing 23rd to Paseo is also the often compared alternative to Plaza/OCU. Ideally, we would eventually end up with two lines.

Right now, the reason for the Plaza/OCU theory, is-

diversity of ridership
student transport (new element)
Plaza as a well defined district now on the line
20% of people on the west side of Classen don't own a car
Intelligibility- defined NW trajectory

And quite frankly, even though it wasn't planned this way, now direct connectivity between the OCU Law School and the main campus.

Also, you have the ability to reinstall service along the original trolley alignment on 19th in future extensions for realitively dense, established neighborhoods.

But you won't find me opposing 23rd/Classen, Jefferson Park, or the Paseo as an option as well. Certainly, input/support /advocacy from those areas would be welcome to MTP and MAPS committe members.

Can someone explain this chart? Am I reading this correct that there would be 4 regional lines as follows with peak 30 minute headways:

Blue Line: Edmond-Norman
Red Line: Edmond-MidWest City
Yellow Line:Norman-Airport-MidWest City
Orange Line: NE OKC - Yukon

Since Edmond is listed twice would that be 2 trains from Edmond (15 minutes apartment I assume) or would it be one train doing some kind of color sharing?

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/transit3.jpg

That's correct...there would be an Edmond-Norman train on 30 minute headways...an Edmond-Midwest City train on 30 minute headways...and a Norman-Midwest City train on 30 minute headways...those would have 15 minute offset departure/arrival times resulting in 15 minute headways to and from those destinations and the hub.

Thaks Hutch - that is what I was hoping.

Dutch television commercial for public transit. Be sure to turn on the subtitles. We need to improve our transit system, start ad campaigns like this, and hopefully start removing the perceived stigma of riding a bus around OKC. I think the movement favoring fixing our very broken public transit system is gaining momentum and hopefully we will begin to see these changes.


http://www.treehugger.com/public-transportation/sexiest-and-best-tv-ad-public-transportation-ever-made.html?goback=%2Egde_1150067_member_164076796

Dutch television commercial for public transit. Be sure to turn on the subtitles. We need to improve our transit system, start ad campaigns like this, and hopefully start removing the perceived stigma of riding a bus around OKC. I think the movement favoring fixing our very broken public transit system is gaining momentum and hopefully we will begin to see these changes.


http://www.treehugger.com/public-transportation/sexiest-and-best-tv-ad-public-transportation-ever-made.html?goback=.gde_1150067_member_164076796

last time I saw faces that happy on a bus was a HS band trip when luck of the draw gave us the adults who were known to quickly nod off once we were underway.

I thought it was pretty amusing too. Very tongue in cheek but I think things like this would help make using a good public transit system more of a mainstream middle class option - if we can get our system up to an acceptable level of service.

How many US cities are learning this lesson?

As Dallas prepares for streetcars of the future, construction along Live Oak unearths brief glimpse of tracks of the past | Transportation Blog (http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/09/as-dallas-prepares-for-streetcars-of-the-future-construction-along-live-oak-unearths-brief-glimpse-of-tracks-of-the-past.html/)

Actually, that was a very important post. We (the Transit Subcommittee) has not been advised as to who was chosen to supply the two streetcars to Dallas. This choice for a modern streetcar was very unusual. Seemingly a "first". Particularly when you consider that the Dallas route is 3/4 wireless. It will be an interesting project to be apprised of.

Indeed, I have read a bit about the Brookville design and it looks pretty good. The fact it is built in Pennsylvania only helps. I do not know how it compare to similar designs from Siemens, etc as far as cost - but I bet you might. Glad I could help! :)

Actually, that was a very important post. We (the Transit Subcommittee) has not been advised as to who was chosen to supply the two streetcars to Dallas. This choice for a modern streetcar was very unusual. Seemingly a "first". Particularly when you consider that the Dallas route is 3/4 wireless. It will be an interesting project to be apprised of.

also very interesting that their design-build contract came in at 28 mil for the 1.6 miles ..

Encouraging to say the least. But probably due to the fact that nearly 1/4 to 1/2 of the alignment is conversion of a lane of traffic to streetcar on a historic bridge over the Trinity River. So, they did not have the expense of relocating utilities for a significant distance. Also, I don't think there is a maintenance facility in the budget as the cars are taken down to the DART Light Rail Center. At least, I think that's what they are still doing unless it has changed.

Brewer's turned down the initial offer on Santa Fe Station and are supposedly generating a counter offer.

Will try to get the audio up but we have maxed out our Sound Cloud account. Lol

i find it very interesting that the Maps 3 Streetcar renderings (which the mayor was a champion of) looks very similar to the Brookville Liberty streetcar that Dallas is getting. Did OKC already have this in mind for our Streetcar?

No. Brookville is a relatively new player in the streetcar business. The renderings precede it.

I wonder if COTPA could change its name to COPTA because I always thought that sounded cooler..lol

SPECIAL MEETING AGENDA

MAPS 3 CITIZENS ADVISORY BOARD TRANSIT / MODERN STREETCAR SUBCOMMITTEE

October 24, 2012

3:30 PM

420 West Main Street
10th Floor Conference Room

I. Call to Order


Approve Minutes of the September 26, 2012 MAPS 3 Citizens Advisory Board Transit/Modern Streetcar Subcommittee Special Meeting

Discussion on MAPS 3 Transit/Modern Streetcar Project Requirements

Update on MAPS 3 Transit/Modern Streetcar Project, Project M3-S003

Update on Acquisition of the Santa Fe Station for the Intermodal Transit Hub

Discussion/Action on MAPS 3 Transit/Modern Streetcar Project
Comments by Subcommittee Members, Staff, and Citizens

Adjournment

Cool...another meeting scheduled at the time of when the average citizen works...

DRAFT PROJECT REQUIREMENTS

PROJECT OVERVIEW

BACKGROUND

The modern rail-based street car system project is unique within the MAPS 3 family of projects. Unlike buildings, sidewalks and trails, Oklahoma City has not had a rail-based street car system for decades. Included in MAPS 3 is $128,815 million in funding for a new rail-based streetcar system to service the inner city and/or other areas within the City of Oklahoma City, plus funding for other transit infrastructure as appropriate, such as connections to other rail-based systems and/or a transit hub.
The project benefits from a number of studies which have been completed under the cooperative efforts of the Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority (COTPA), the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (ACOG) and other groups. These include:

Fixed Guideway Transit Study
Let’s Talk Transit
Alternative Analysis

According to the Fixed Guideway Study, which is the blueprint for the future of public transit in the region, streetcars provide flexibility and relative low cost compared to other rail alternatives, making it a viable choice for any high capacity transit corridor.

One of the first steps in the modern streetcar planning process was to collect public input on the route. “Let’s Talk Transit,” consisted of a series of public input meetings, online discussions and surveys. The Alternatives Analysis examined a number of transportation factors and options and forms an outline for possible routes and other components.

In addition, COTPA managed the process of seeking FTA New Starts/Small Starts funding to augment the MAPS 3 funds. In April of 2012 the F T A notified CO TP A that the project would not be considered for funding at this time.


All of the findings and conclusions of the above studies and efforts can be utilized to expedite and enhance the MAPS 3 effort.

The City has engaged Jacobs Engineering Group, Inc. to provide consulting services for the planning and preliminary engineering of the project. The existing Santa Fe Station has been identified as the site of the future Intermodal Transit Hub.


PROJECT DESCRIPTION

The rail-based streetcar system is intended to serve the downtown vicinity. A maintenance facility will be constructed to service the streetcars. The number of miles of track constructed will be determined by available construction dollars. The project will be completed in several phases consisting of the following:


INVESTIGATION AND STANDARDS

General System Implementation/Planning

Conduct Workshops/focus groups
Develop/Update Project Scheduling
Economic Development Land Use Assessment
Assessment and Study Of Future Connectivity Possibilities
Final Alignment Selection Design Aspects
Develop Operating and Maintenance (O & M) Cost Estimates
Provide Program Management Support
Public Involvement/Coordination
Coordination with other projects and entities
Environmental studies/assessments
Right of way requirements and acquisition
Operation/maintenance
FTA Coordination/planning
Provide cost estimates
Provide City staff with other technical and professional support as required for the streetcar development and implementation process


Concept Design/Planning and Route Verification

Verify the subcommittee’s preferred route
Analyze potential streetcar propulsion systems
Analyze the interactions between the streetcar route and the Intermodal Hub
Analyze the functions of the proposed Intermodal Hub
Analyze the interaction between the streetcar and the other MAPS 3 projects including the Downtown Park and Convention Center, as well as the future Oklahoma City Boulevard.

Rail Recommendation

Analyze rail criteria
Recommend rail type
Vehicle Recommendation
Analyze the system for various types of cars and propulsion types
Recommend propulsion type for the streetcar

Engineering/Consulting Services

Provide technical guidance for the planning and design of the streetcar system
Compile/obtain GIS and topographic information
Recommend site for the streetcar maintenance facility
Identify utility and other potential conflicts
Analyze preliminary layout and operational design aspects
Provide technical assistance and reports for preliminary design of the streetcar and streetcar route

Connections/NE Corridor

Provide technical assistance for the evaluation of possible connections and or extensions to the streetcar system and other rail systems
Evaluate existing lines/systems as possible extensions and/or connections to the streetcar system
Evaluate existing lines/corridors for condition and feasibility o Evaluate alternate corridors for connections or lines


Maintenance Facility

Recommend a site for the maintenance facility
Recommend a preliminary layout of a maintenance facility
Assist with operation aspects related to the maintenance facility
Intermodal HUB Coordination
Assist with all aspects of the intermodal hub including the operation analysis of functions of the hub


Provide Professional/ T echnical Support

Provide City staff with other technical and professional support as required for the streetcar development and implementation process


LAND AQUISITION

Acquisition of the Santa Fe depot to serve as the Intermodal Transit
Miscellaneous land acquisition which may be required for the effective implementation and operation of the system

RAIL PROCUREMENT

Prepare procurement specifications
Assist with preparation and review of the Request for Proposal
Assist with oversight of delivery of materials

VEHICLE PROCUREMENT

Prepare procurement specifications
Assist with the preparation and review of the Request for Proposal
Assist with oversight of delivery of vehicles

ARCHITECTURE AND ENGINEERING

Development of actual plans and specifications which will be used for the construction of the system


CONSTRUCTION

First phase will include an as yet undetermined length of track with amenities required for a functioning system, a maintenance facility and other transit infrastructure as appropriate.

Second phase of construction will complete as many additional route miles as the remaining available construction dollars will allow.

Great article and important considerations for us no doubt.

Eye on MAPS 3 transit hub urged as Oklahoma City Council considers bus station approval Oklahoma City Council members are urging Greyhound officials to keep the future MAPS 3 intermodal transit hub in mind in future years when making plans to move next year to a new terminal east of downtown.

BY MICHAEL KIMBALL | Published: October 24, 2012 http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.newsok.com/newsok/images/comment_icon.gif

Oklahoma City Council members on Tuesday urged representatives from Greyhound to consider eventual use of the future MAPS 3 intermodal transit hub as the council considers an item to allow the bus company to use a new terminal east of downtown.


Read more: Eye on MAPS 3 transit hub urged as Oklahoma City Council considers bus station approval | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/eye-on-maps-3-transit-hub-urged-as-oklahoma-city-council-considers-bus-station-approval/article/3721773#ixzz2ALAvcoJX)

The audio file for the Wednesday MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee had been remastered and is now uploaded to Sound Cloud. Here is the link.

Oct. 24, 2012 MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee Meeting by ModernTransitProject OKC on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free (http://soundcloud.com/moderntransitproject-okc/oct-24-2012-maps-3-transit)

Great article and important considerations for us no doubt.

Eye on MAPS 3 transit hub urged as Oklahoma City Council considers bus station approval Oklahoma City Council members are urging Greyhound officials to keep the future MAPS 3 intermodal transit hub in mind in future years when making plans to move next year to a new terminal east of downtown.

BY MICHAEL KIMBALL | Published: October 24, 2012 http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.newsok.com/newsok/images/comment_icon.gif

Oklahoma City Council members on Tuesday urged representatives from Greyhound to consider eventual use of the future MAPS 3 intermodal transit hub as the council considers an item to allow the bus company to use a new terminal east of downtown.


Read more: Eye on MAPS 3 transit hub urged as Oklahoma City Council considers bus station approval | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/eye-on-maps-3-transit-hub-urged-as-oklahoma-city-council-considers-bus-station-approval/article/3721773#ixzz2ALAvcoJX)


What ended up happening with this?

What ended up happening with this?

Passed. Shadid voted no.

What he means is that they voted to move the Greyhound station out to Reno & Eastern or where ever east of downtown. Intermodal Hub is still 8 and I'd say more like 10+ years away from being fully functional. I said I agree with council because a year and a half from now they can lock the doors and the bums will have to find another place to hang out at!

Also, of note, Greyhound would be almost a year into its lease had it not been for interference from Planning Commission and Council...

Also, of note, Greyhound would be almost a year into its lease had it not been for interference from Planning Commission and Council...

planning commission for sure they delayed this over and over and over ..

I remain a touch amazed the space they have at Reno/Eastern is large enough for their present needs.

Well they can always expand into that wooded area where all the homeless people sleep at. But I'm amazed they moved it out of downtown in the first place.

All the construction, the apparent narrowing of their available space as lots adjoining were bought up and fenced off, the moving of I=40 further from DT, and the writing on the wall that the present area is going to be subject to further development for some time. Put it together and the move seems fairly reasonable, but it's a shame it couldn't coincide with and end up at a more central multi mode transport location

Here is the link to the audio from November's MAPS 3 Transit Meeting. The meeting was quite short.

https://soundcloud.com/moderntransitproject-okc/nov-14-2012-maps-3-transit

The next meeting is Wednesday, December 19th, at 3:30 at 420 Main in the 10th floor large conference room.

The December 19th should be a fairly important meeting in theory as we receive an update as to JACOBS progress and vote on the project requirements and overall scope guideline.

On Gwin Faulconer this past Sunday regarding transit and its relationship to the Boulevard and the Convention Center.

Gwin Faulconer Lippert Show 12-9-12 Segment 2 - KTOK (http://www.ktok.com/player/?station=KTOK-AM&program_name=podcast&program_id=GwinnFaulconerLippert.xml&mid=22698633)

MAPS3 Streetcar/Transit Subcommittee meets today at 3:30.

420 West Main Street, 10th Floor Conference Room

Love to go but ONCE AGAIN I work til 8pm.

So how'd it go? Did they discuss anything of significant importance?

So how'd it go? Did they discuss anything of significant importance?

It was a very interesting meeting. There was an excellent presentation on TOD (Transit Oriented Development/Design) and on Urban Density (Used a heat map to show "hotspots" of development and potential areas of TOD).

It was a very interesting meeting. There was an excellent presentation on TOD (Transit Oriented Development/Design) and on Urban Density (Used a heat map to show "hotspots" of development and potential areas of TOD).Nice. I want to start to going to those meetings. Do you have to live in OKC to attend one. I live in Edmond, so I don't know whether or not that would be an issue.

Public meetings are open door; you are welcome to any public city meeting. In fact, there was at least one person from Edmond in the room yesterday evening.

Public meetings are open door; you are welcome to any public city meeting. In fact, there was at least one person from Edmond in the room yesterday evening.Huh... well that's good to know. I'll probably show up for the next one. My name is Campbell Sadeghy so if show up and have to give name or something like that, thats who I am. :) Seeing as my Plutonic Panda alias isn't really a good name to go by there. ;)

Here is the audio file for streaming listening. This particular meeting was also videotaped by some people there and if I find the link to it, will post it when it is up. I think Catch 22 took some pictures as well he can drop on here at some point.

The Floor Area Ratio or "FAR" presentation was completely impressive and essentially virtually ratified the proposed streetcar route. It will look better on video.

https://soundcloud.com/moderntransitproject-okc/dec-19-2012-maps-3-transit

It wasn't from the consultant. It was from the OKC Planning Department. What they did justified the proposed route. They took it to a whole another level analysis above and beyond what the consultants had previously done.

But not in Oklahoma City or Oklahoma.... it only works this way everywhere else in the US that has forward looking leaders and Transportation Departments that can see past the highways..... Oklahoma is some sort of "special place" where normal economic development rules do not apply and drivers cannot figure out how to navigate roundabouts according to our leaders and editorials.....

Rail News - Twin Cities' Central Corridor attracts $1.2 billion in real estate development. For Railroad Career Professionals (http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/Twin-Cities-Central-Corridor-attracts-12-billion-in-real-estate-development--33780#)

Here is the audio file for streaming listening. This particular meeting was also videotaped by some people there and if I find the link to it, will post it when it is up. I think Catch 22 took some pictures as well he can drop on here at some point.

The Floor Area Ratio or "FAR" presentation was completely impressive and essentially virtually ratified the proposed streetcar route. It will look better on video.

https://soundcloud.com/moderntransitproject-okc/dec-19-2012-maps-3-transit

Will there be video?

From today's concile meeting:

Planning for transit hub, streetcar dominates Oklahoma City council discussion | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/planning-for-transit-hub-streetcar-dominates-oklahoma-city-council-discussion/article/3742492)


@ZekeCampfield
9:39 a.m.
Councilwoman Meg Salyer: Incorporate streetcar plans into all public transit plans for the city
@ZekeCampfield
9:40 a.m.
Councilman Skip Kelly: Was MAPS vote limited to strictly streetcar, or are we in position to define future transit programs?
@ZekeCampfield
9:41 a.m.
Mayor Mick Cornett: Intent was to build streetcar as circulation system for downtown, but MAPS dollars can be used for other transit prjcts
@ZekeCampfield
9:42 a.m.
Councilman Larry McAtee: We said 10 mill for hub, 120 mill for streetcar. Streetcar was to be designed within those limitations.
@ZekeCampfield
9:44 a.m.
Kelly: If you have lines that are already established that eliminates a major cost
@ZekeCampfield
9:44 a.m.
Kelly: Streetcar should connect to "Adventure District," i.e. zoo, science museum area


Maybe I am wrong, but I thought the MAPS money was the minimum to be spent assuming the funding goal was achieved, not the maximum. I say ditch the rail line to the adventure district and run a streetcar down Lincoln and then over to the zoo area. Follow the link as there was lots of good stuff about the route as well.

JTF: Yes & No. The Mayor stated that they didn't put anything into MAPS 3 that we couldn't pay for completely and on our own (remember in MAPS the Streetcars were dependent on Federal funding which didn't happen so we got the rubber tired Trolleys instead). Of course this was for the 5 to 6 miles (if double tracked, effectively 2.5 to 3 miles)& the Transit Hub. Other times it was mentioned as a "starter system" that would depend on Federal money and other local entities.

Got to love Cornett's line:

Intent was to build streetcar as circulation system for downtown, but MAPS dollars can be used for other transit projects
The Mayor is correct, they can spend the money on just about anything they want to (read the Ballot & more importantly, the Ordinance). That was one of the shortcomings of the vague language. There is nothing legally binding them to the letter of intent. During the Bass Pro/MAPS for Kids Use Tax debacle, the court ruled that their intent can change at any time depending on the whim of the Council.

Skip Kelly is funny. Unfortunately he's also very misguided, uninformed, and removed from the process. The idea that he represents a few folks in downtown is scary.

I'm going to assume he drove drunk to this council meeting or something. Or maybe he slept at a Holiday Inn or something... But I doubt he's more knowledgeable about transit planning than the subcommittee or consultants.

OKC City Council Approves List Of Requirements For Streetcars - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/20490224/city-council-approves-list-of-requirements-for-downtown-streetcar-system)

http://newsok.com/streetcar-plans-scrutinized-by-oklahoma-city-council/article/3742575

Related to the News9 story: OKC City Council Approves List Of Requirements For Streetcars - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/20490224/city-council-approves-list-of-requirements-for-downtown-streetcar-system)

Congratulations on being promoted to Project Manager, Urban Pioneer. When did you start working for the City?