One other thing I have noticed is the overhead power cables are hardly noticeable. I think we will be wasting our time worrying about a few people complaining about something no one will notice once it has been there a while. If anything, the supports for the cables add a bit of character to the streetscape.

The overhead wires also allows people unfamiliar the route to know where the streetcar goes. Personally, I like the overhead wires. It add interest to the streetscape.

Anyone who doubts the reality of transit oriented development need only take a trip down I-35 to Dallas. Twenty years ago downtown Dallas was decaying fast - it was a virtual ghost town once all the suburb dwelling workers left for the day. The West End was starting to die and Deep Ellum was in bad shape. Despite all the griping from numerous groups, DART started their light rail system along existing rail right of ways they purchased. Now, as I look through my hotel window at the West End station, I see numerous thriving restaurants, mixed use development, trains that run every 5-7 minutes per line, commuter rail to Ft Worth, and Amtrak heading into Union Station. There are numerous restaurants that stay open after midnight all week, and now it is possible to live, shop, and work in Dallas without driving a car every day. Even so, I can also see slow moving traffic that makes a commute in a car in this city pure misery.

There is absolutely no reason this cannot be done in OKC as well even though it will obviously be a smaller scale - for now. It has been mentioned that population density is the main barrier to transit working in OKC. I think the population will naturally congregate around a fixed guideway transit system if we ever have the vision to build one. Our MAPS streetcar system is a great start, but I hope we will be willing to go beyond the streetcar and develop a regional system within the next decade. The I think the population density will take care of itself once people figure out how much they can save by reducing the number of vehicles they own, or by better serving those without a car.

Giving the credit for all of the changes in downtown Dallas to the DART lines is quite a stretch. The vast bulk of the development in downtown Dallas would not have happened without massive subsidies from the City of Dallas.

FWIW, DART has NO train lines that run on 5-7 minute headways. Their headways during peak times are 15 minutes... 20-30 minutes at non-peak times. The only way you can come up with anything close to a 5-7 minute headway is by combining the red and orange lines between Parker Rd and Bachman Station, which would give us a 7.5 minutes headway during peak periods. The peak period covers only 6 hours of the day.

You go with your bad self Oil Capital!

Of course transit is not 100% responsible for the recovery of downtown Dallas. But it is equally foolish to state it has no effect. Everywhere you go along the DART lines, there are projects under construction of the type that has been discussed numerous times. To continue to deny that transit does not create reinvestment in blighted areas is not based on any reality associated with transit systems in the US in the last 10 - 20 years.

Are you referring to subsidies like TIF's? So why not invest in our city for redeveloping the city center as well? It got us a Bass Pro Shop so I hope we are willing to invest in returning life to downtown and reduce our city's absolute dependency on cars.

Yes it is true that individual DART lines do not run on 5 minute headways - but when all but extreme end of the lines are combined, they effectively run on about a 7 minute headway. Red/Orange, Redd/Blue, Orange/Green are all combined for a large portion of their run and this doesn't count the Pearl St to West End corridor. I think they are going to about 10 when the line to Irving / Las Colinas opens. Still not bad at all - and no one's time is so valuable they can't wait 10 minutes.

Of course transit is not 100% responsible for the recovery of downtown Dallas. But it is equally foolish to state it has no effect. Everywhere you go along the DART lines, there are projects under construction of the type that has been discussed numerous times. To continue to deny that transit does not create reinvestment in blighted areas is not based on any reality associated with transit systems in the US in the last 10 - 20 years.

Are you referring to subsidies like TIF's? So why not invest in our city for redeveloping the city center as well? It got us a Bass Pro Shop so I hope we are willing to invest in returning life to downtown and reduce our city's absolute dependency on cars.

Yes it is true that individual DART lines do not run on 5 minute headways - but when all but extreme end of the lines are combined, they effectively run on about a 7 minute headway. Red/Orange, Redd/Blue, Orange/Green are all combined for a large portion of their run and this doesn't count the Pearl St to West End corridor. I think they are going to about 10 when the line to Irving / Las Colinas opens. Still not bad at all - and no one's time is so valuable they can't wait 10 minutes.

Of course, I never said the rail line had no effect. Don't try to put words in my mouth. I will say, however, that IMO, the effect has probably been pretty minimal. IMO, the rail line is neither necessary nor sufficient for the achievement of good urban development.

I keep running into people on various message boards who claim there is TOD springing up all over the Dallas area. But when I ask for specifics, the only examples anyone has given me are (1) Mockingbird Station (which received at least a little government infrastructure assistance) and (2&3) a couple of suburban-style apartment complexes that are finally going up at a couple of far-flung suburban stops (both of which have also been heavily subsidized). Since you have apparently seen TOD under construction everywhere you go along the DART lines, can you give us a few more examples?

The subsidies have been far more than just TIFs. And I never said we should not invest in our city. But we should be clear and honest about what it takes to get TOD. It does not just spring up because a rail line has been built.

Thank you for correcting your earlier misstatement about the headways on the rail lines. But to clarify, the "effectively run on about a 7 minute headway" (7.5 minutes) is only during peak periods, which is only 6 hours out of the day. The rest of the day, they run on 10-15 minute headways in those areas where there are two lines on the same trackage (actually, according to DART's website, that only applies to the red/orange shared trackage from Parker Road to Bachman). Outside of those areas, the headways are 15 minutes during peak times and 20-30 minutes non-peak (i.e., most of the day).

Yesterday's transit meeting. Click on link and then download to retrieve the MP3 file.

https://www.yousendit.com/dl?phi_action=app/orchestrateDownload&rurl=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.yousendit.com%252Ftra nsfer.php%253Faction%253Dbatch_download%2526send_i d%253D1625263081%2526email%253Df61660d81f3b34b6281 5cf97aedfc116&s=19105&cid=tx-02002208350200000000

Thanks for posting the audio from yesterday's meeting UP.

Oil Capital - I have been timing headways during the rush hour along the central line in downtown Dallas. It is about 2.5 minutes between northbound Green line trains and less than one minute at times between trains regardless of line. The way DART built their system allows a rider to use multiple "color" trains in all but the farthest outlying areas. Only out there are the headways more than 10 - 15 minutes. Off peak service is logically reduced but I only had a 15 minutes wait at one of the outlying stations last night. No transit system is perfect, but DART has done a pretty good job.

There are numerous developments being built along the DART lines. The Green line toward Carollton had at least 5 relatively new or under construction residential developments with ground cleared for more. There are several buildings in downtown within a block of the DART line being converted to residential or refurbished. The US75 corridor is easy to see several developments that were built after DART started running that way. Downtown Plano has a couple large residential complexes now and there is life in the downtown adjacent to the 15th St Station where none existed after 5PM previously. I suppose we are going to agree to disagree on the relative value of a transit system.

Thanks for posting the audio from yesterday's meeting UP.

Oil Capital - I have been timing headways during the rush hour along the central line in downtown Dallas. It is about 2.5 minutes between northbound Green line trains and less than one minute at times between trains regardless of line. The way DART built their system allows a rider to use multiple "color" trains in all but the farthest outlying areas. Only out there are the headways more than 10 - 15 minutes. Off peak service is logically reduced but I only had a 15 minutes wait at one of the outlying stations last night. No transit system is perfect, but DART has done a pretty good job.

If there was 2.5 minutes between Green Line northbound trains, something was amiss. There may have been a backup of vehicles or something. They are scheduled to run at 15 minute headways during peak times, according to DART's schedule. You are exaggerating the number of stops shared by different colored lines. Less than 1/2 of the system's stations are covered by more than 1 line. Of those with multiple-line servce, the vast majority are served by only 2 lines, which only gets you close to your originally-claimed 5-7 minute headways during peak times. It's quite an exaggeration to claim the system has 5-7 minute headways without adding a laundry list of qualifiers. Of course, none of this has anything to do with DART being perfect or pretty good or whatever. No one in this conversation has criticized DART. Only that we should be honest in our assessments.


There are numerous developments being built along the DART lines. The Green line toward Carollton had at least 5 relatively new or under construction residential developments with ground cleared for more. There are several buildings in downtown within a block of the DART line being converted to residential or refurbished. The US75 corridor is easy to see several developments that were built after DART started running that way. Downtown Plano has a couple large residential complexes now and there is life in the downtown adjacent to the 15th St Station where none existed after 5PM previously. I suppose we are going to agree to disagree on the relative value of a transit system.

Yes, I heard from you earlier that there are developments everywhere you go along the DART lines. I am looking for serious information. Telling us that there are at least 5 relatively new or under construction residential developments along the Green Line really doesn't tell us much more. Are those developments next to Green Line stations? Where exactly are they located? What are their names? After a little further digging, it appears there are a couple of the suburbs (I think Carrollton and Farmers Branch?) developing apartment projects along the Green Line. Is that really the desired result from spending billions of dollars on a rail system?... the development of suburban-style apartment projects in far-flung suburbs? I mean, do we want to build a rail system in OKC so that more apartments can be built in Edmond, or at Portland & Memorial?

We discussed the downtown developments earlier. Most if not all of those residential developments in downtown Dallas have been heavily subsidized. That may or may not be the best thing to do. But reality should be recognized.

Regarding the US75 corridor, ever heard the phrase post hoc, ergo propter hoc? it's even easier to see the huge number of developments along the US75 corridor that were built before DART started running that way. And it's easy to see all of the developments along that corridor that are not adjacent to DART stations. Can you give us names and locations of some that are adjacent to or near DART stations?

I guess I'll grant that it appears DART has been good for expanding evening entertainment options in Plano. ;-)

If there was 2.5 minutes between Green Line northbound trains, something was amiss. There may have been a backup of vehicles or something. They are scheduled to run at 15 minute headways during peak times, according to DART's schedule. You are exaggerating the number of stops shared by different colored lines. Less than 1/2 of the system's stations are covered by more than 1 line. Of those with multiple-line servce, the vast majority are served by only 2 lines, which only gets you close to your originally-claimed 5-7 minute headways during peak times. It's quite an exaggeration to claim the system has 5-7 minute headways without adding a laundry list of qualifiers. Of course, none of this has anything to do with DART being perfect or pretty good or whatever. No one in this conversation has criticized DART. Only that we should be honest in our assessments.

The number of DART stations served by greater than one line is 27 out of 60. So you are correct it is less than half, but not exactly the "vast majority" being served by a single line. The effect is to increase the number of vehicles in a given period of time - otherwise called abundance. There was no exaggeration - I observed the frequency for a few hours over the course of several days and found it to be fairly consistent. Of course there is variability in any transportation system, but the Dallas region has built a pretty decent system that is increasing in ridership consistently. The leadership of the regional governments did this despite the same objections we are hearing from transit opponents in OKC now.

As I stated before, you are evidently an opponent of improving transit. I won't bother speculating a what your motivation for that position is, but I maintain that OKC would be better off if residents were not absolutely dependent upon car ownership to get to work, shopping, and entertainment. In all honesty, I think this issue is MUCH larger than Oklahoma City - the United States has spent decades creating a situation that is economically unsustainable at any cost. It is foolish to continue ignore our voracious consumption of resources that will eventually lead to economic peril far worse than anything we have experienced in recent memory. Go ahead and call that statement melodramatic if you wish, but that is one of the primary reasons I think it is important to begin building infrastructure that more efficiently moves people and goods locally and regionally. It isn't because I am a train fanatic, rather it is a realistic solution to a problem we should not ignore.

The number of DART stations served by greater than one line is 27 out of 60. So you are correct it is less than half, but not exactly the "vast majority" being served by a single line. The effect is to increase the number of vehicles in a given period of time - otherwise called abundance. There was no exaggeration - I observed the frequency for a few hours over the course of several days and found it to be fairly consistent. Of course there is variability in any transportation system, but the Dallas region has built a pretty decent system that is increasing in ridership consistently. The leadership of the regional governments did this despite the same objections we are hearing from transit opponents in OKC now.

As I stated before, you are evidently an opponent of improving transit. I won't bother speculating a what your motivation for that position is, but I maintain that OKC would be better off if residents were not absolutely dependent upon car ownership to get to work, shopping, and entertainment. In all honesty, I think this issue is MUCH larger than Oklahoma City - the United States has spent decades creating a situation that is economically unsustainable at any cost. It is foolish to continue ignore our voracious consumption of resources that will eventually lead to economic peril far worse than anything we have experienced in recent memory. Go ahead and call that statement melodramatic if you wish, but that is one of the primary reasons I think it is important to begin building infrastructure that more efficiently moves people and goods locally and regionally. It isn't because I am a train fanatic, rather it is a realistic solution to a problem we should not ignore.

I did not say that a vast majority were of stations were served by a single line. I said that the vast majority of stations served by more than one, were served by only 2 and thus achieve effective headways getting somewhat close to your originally stated 5-7 minutes (but only if you are also going to another station likewise served by that second line.) There are relatively very few stations served by more than 2 lines and therefore providing headways within your originally stated parameters. Yes, there was obviously exaggeration, dude. The system simply does not have 5-7 minute headways as you claimed. Yes, if you are traveling within a limited number of stations, you can at limited times of the day, achieve 5-7 minute headways. But that is quite different from claiming the system has 5-7 minute headways on all lines, full stop.

No, I am not opposed to improving transit. Nothing in my responses to you implies that I am. I only insist that when we look at transit and possible improvements, we look at actual facts, not starry-eyed fantasies. Your claims to want realistic solutions are not convincing when you refuse to look at existing systems realistically.

I was hoping to be able to learn something in my exchange with you. I sincerely asked questions regarding the developments in Dallas that you have seen and also the more fundamental question as to whether the desired result of spending billions of dollars on a rail system is the development of apartments in far-flung suburbs. But instead of addressing the questions, you choose to set up silly strawmen that you can melodramatically knock down.

(And BTW, the Dallas rail system has NOT been increasing ridership consistently. Facts can be stubborn things.)http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/20120611-editorial-wheres-the-dart-ridership-plan.ece

http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/tag/dart-ridership/

Do a search and you'll find that the case is pretty much that they have ridership gains when they open new line segments. Otherwise they are having trouble keeping riders on their lines.

The biggest problem with DART is their reliance on Park and Ride. Gas goes up and people take the train. Gas goes down and people drive. What they should have focused on is connecting urban centers with urban centers. Train stations should not be replacing the freeway on-ramp. Rail should connect urban concentrations as a catalyst to recreate traditional pre-WWII neighbborhoods. Urban centers should then have local streetcar service. For example, downtown Dallas should have a streetcar network and downtown Plano should have a streetcar network. The two should be connected by a non-stop express train. Park and ride only allows urban sprawl to become worse - just like building more freeways. The ultimate goal of rail should be to take the car out of the equation. When you have park and ride the car is half the equation.

Can we start a thread on DART cause even though its another streetcar, Im not finding the side banter as useful information for OKC streetcar updates.

The biggest problem with DART is their reliance on Park and Ride. Gas goes up and people take the train. Gas goes down and people drive. What they should have focused on is connecting urban centers with urban centers. Train stations should not be replacing the freeway on-ramp. Rail should connect urban concentrations as a catalyst to recreate traditional pre-WWII neighbborhoods. Urban centers should then have local streetcar service. For example, downtown Dallas should have a streetcar network and downtown Plano should have a streetcar network. The two should be connected by a non-stop express train. Park and ride only allows urban sprawl to become worse - just like building more freeways. The ultimate goal of rail should be to take the car out of the equation. When you have park and ride the car is half the equation.

That is a good point JTF. I spoke with a few people who stated they would use DART more often if there were "express" trains that ran to the major stations. I think perhaps part of the reason is there were so many municipalities that are in the DART coalition, they feel the need to serve all of them. (Maybe?)

Regarding ridership, I have yet to be on an empty train and I have used it at all times of the day. Obviously there will be peak periods as with any transit system - or highway.

Oil Capital - I have been stating what I have seen in the week I have been here and attempted to relate it to what a future OKC Metro system could be. I first came to the DFW area over twenty years ago and the development along their transit system is very apparent. I actually agree with you that the primary issue that would prevent the construction of a rail based transit system in OKC is the distance between the population centers and the cost to connect them to destinations. But that is typical of American cities and several have found ways to overcome that obstacle - I simply hope OKC will eventually do so as well.

OKC is a particularly egregious example of low density sprawl. You may very well be correct the cost for such a system is prohibitive with the expected revenue that can be raised. How to fund a regional system in OKC is the main issue that must be solved before anything can be started. I see the MAPS Streetcar system as a possible indicator of how transit might succeed in the central city, but again that does not solve the cost issue for a regional system.

The reconstruction of US75 / central express way has had a huge impact on the construction buildup along this Dallas corridor.


I hope to take the Green line from the north end of the line to this year’s OU Texas game.
This will be my first trip on the Green line for OU Texas week end, any information about how this works ON GAME DAY would be appreciated.

The reconstruction of US75 / central express way has had a huge impact on the construction buildup along this Dallas corridor.


I hope to take the Green line from the north end of the line to this year’s OU Texas game.
This will be my first trip on the Green line for OU Texas week end, any information about how this works ON GAME DAY would be appreciated.

I've taken the red line and connected but never the green line all of the way. Expect the cars to be very full.

Probably the best place to catch the Green Line would be the Trinity Mills Park & Ride or maybe at the Green Line terminus in North Carrollton/Frankford. Should be more parking there than just about any other place that far north and then it is one train ride to Fair Park.

Has there not been any new major news regarding OUR streetcar system? I couldn't careless about Dallas' system.

Has there not been any new major news regarding OUR streetcar system? I couldn't careless about Dallas' system.

No.

I missed the last MAPS Streetcar meeting but listened to a recording. The main points of discussion was the the scope of an engineering study and a recommendation to the City Council to direct Public Works to take the streetcar system and transit hub into consideration when evaluating the ODOT design for the new boulevard.

UP or anyone else who heard something different, please correct me if I missed something.

(The entire DART tangent is my fault - since this thread also covers transit beyond the streetcar, I related some of my observations on the Dallas system during the past week. Another poster took issue with personal observations and my further posts attempting to clarify what I was talking about only made the discussion go further astray. Didn't intend it to be a distraction; it was merely a statement about some things I have seen that worked well and could do the same in OKC.)

I've taken the red line and connected but never the green line all of the way. Expect the cars to be very full.

Probably the best place to catch the Green Line would be the Trinity Mills Park & Ride or maybe at the Green Line terminus in North Carrollton/Frankford. Should be more parking there than just about any other place that far north and then it is one train ride to Fair Park.

Thanks for your responses.

Dart RAIL & BUS operates an OU - Texas game day special virtually the entire day, pretty much system wide.

Details of last year’s OU Texas Dart plans can be seen on the link below.

Assuming this is another 11 am game again, I will board the train at the North Carrollton/Frankford Station for MLK, Jr. Station at 7 AM or shortly thereafter. If I understand this correctly I won’t need to change trains and will be taken directly to the MLK station.

However after the game, I am unclear how I determine the difference between a Green Line train that goes back to the North Carrollton/Frankford Station and the Green Line circulator that rotates though down town and Fair Park and if I need to change trains on the way home. How will these be marked?

Between the people attending the game (about 92,000) and the people only attending the Fair (tens of thousands) I am a little concerned about the amount of back up that may occur after the game. The Green Line trains only hold about 500 passengers and they only depart every 10 minutes.

I know the residential and side streets that take you away from the Fair Park area well enough that I can usual eat a quick bite and drive home to Norman in about 4.5 hours after the game. I could do this in about 4 hours before they recently expanded the stadium,,,,,,
but I’m not sure if the train would really save me any time?

http://www.dart.org/statefair/statefair.asp?zeon=redriverrivalry


PS: Somebody with more DART knowledge than me should start a DART thread.
It would be helpful to those who seldom use the system and for other discussion proposes.

During normal operations it is the same Green line in Carrollton and at Fair Park. I am not sure about the time you might save - never been to an OU-TX game. I think not having to deal with the craziness of traffic around there alone might be worth taking the DART line. Every time I see traffic at a stand still on a highway while I am going past at 40 mph or so just reinforces my desire to use non-road based transit whenever possible.

I've been attending the OU - Texas game since 1965 so I'm very familiar with traffic issues both arriving to and leaving the game. I have to say that, even if you have to wait a little to get in one of the DART cars, it's much preferable to being stuck in traffic gridlock for up to an hour after the game. I always stay in Dallas on Saturday and go home on Sunday so I'm not sure if it would save you time getting home on Saturday.

Regarding ridership, I have yet to be on an empty train and I have used it at all times of the day. Obviously there will be peak periods as with any transit system - or highway.

Oil Capital - I have been stating what I have seen in the week I have been here and attempted to relate it to what a future OKC Metro system could be. I first came to the DFW area over twenty years ago and the development along their transit system is very apparent. I actually agree with you that the primary issue that would prevent the construction of a rail based transit system in OKC is the distance between the population centers and the cost to connect them to destinations. But that is typical of American cities and several have found ways to overcome that obstacle - I simply hope OKC will eventually do so as well.

OKC is a particularly egregious example of low density sprawl. You may very well be correct the cost for such a system is prohibitive with the expected revenue that can be raised. How to fund a regional system in OKC is the main issue that must be solved before anything can be started. I see the MAPS Streetcar system as a possible indicator of how transit might succeed in the central city, but again that does not solve the cost issue for a regional system.

Regarding ridership, whatever your personal anecdotal experience, the experience of the DART rail system has not been good. The system increases ridership only when they've added lines and stations. Other than that, pretty much declining ridership on existing lines. And not particularly high ridership to begin with.

I think I see the problem with your observations of Dallas development. You apparently first came to Dallas when they were starting construction on their first rail line and therefore assume that all development in that/those corridor(s) is a result of the rail. That is simply not true. I first came to the DFW area almost 30 years ago, long before the first line started construction or the routes had even been determined and, guess what, there was development going on all up and down the US 75 corridor. An earlier poster was absolutely correct... that development accelerated when Central Expressway was widened, which is also about the time the rail opened. But the fact that 99% of the development has not been in any way transit-oriented makes it pretty clear which of those projects, if either, spurred the development.

Fortuitously, I found myself in the DFW area this weekend, so I spent some time looking at the Red and Green routes to see what TOD I had been overlooking.

Red Line:
Cityplace Station: There are a couple of low-rise apartment buildings near the station. I assume, but do not know that they have convenient connections to the station.

Mockingbird Station: The one true TOD that has developed.

Lovers Lane: Nothing

Park Lane: Nothing

Walnut Hill: Nothing

Forest Lane: Nothing

LBJ/Central: Nothing

Spring Valley: Nothing

At that point, I was so far into suburbia, I could no longer even pretend to care ;-)

Green Line:
Market Center: Nothing

Southwestern Medical Center/Parkland: There is a new-ish apartment complex within walking distance of the station. It's a stretch to call it TOD, and it probably has more to do with being near the medical district than the DART station.

Inwood/Love Field: Nothing

Burbank: Nothing

Bachman: Nothing

Walnut Hill: Nothing

Royal Lane: Nothing

Again, at this point, suburbia.

Regarding downtown housing development, it is instructive to consider that the rail line opened in 1996. Downtown Dallas residential development didn't take off until the middle of the next decade. It was not spurred by the rail line. After waiting for the rail line to spur housing development, as some had expected, Dallas finally bit the bullet and decided to poor many tens of millions of dollars (well over $150 Million to be sure) to spur housing development. (And oddly enough, even without rail or any imminent prospect of rail, OKC has managed to develop downtown residential on a scale probably in excess of that in Dallas, relative to the sizes of the cities.)

I am not by any means anti-rail. On balance I am pro-rail. But we should be realistic about rail will and will not do for a city.

Victory, Galatyn, Carrollton, Park Lane, West End, Akard, St Paul, and downtown Plano all have housing or retail in the immediate vicinity. A few of the stations were built specifically for Park & Ride, but that is a necessity when the ridership at the outlying areas is so spread out. Not ideal, but a realistic solution to reduce the number of single occupant cars clogging up the highway network.

We are obviously going to never find any point of agreement since evidently you need to continue to post rebuttals to anything that doesn't fit your interpretation of the reason behind development. I never once stated the DART system was 100% responsible for ALL the development in the region. But it is undeniable that the city center of Dallas has seen a dramatic increase in residential redevelopment / development since the DART light rail system was built and there have been several new developments along those corridors.

I've been attending the OU - Texas game since 1965 so I'm very familiar with traffic issues both arriving to and leaving the game. I have to say that, even if you have to wait a little to get in one of the DART cars, it's much preferable to being stuck in traffic gridlock for up to an hour after the game. I always stay in Dallas on Saturday and go home on Sunday so I'm not sure if it would save you time getting home on Saturday.

They are going to start the reconstruction of I – 635 (LBJ) soon. This has been part of my normal driving path. So I need a new plan.
I have read that the average Dart rail train only travels at around 25 to 35 MPH. If I can find a secure place to park on the west side of Fair Park. I would probably save more time by doing this than if I took the slow train. But I have never parked on the west side and I am unfamiliar with this area?

They need to build additional ramps at the stadium….because by far the biggest source of congestion is just walking out of the stadium. It’s taken me as long as 45 minutes just to make my way out of the stadium since the new expansion. On the path I had been driving after the game once I’m 2 or 3 blocks out of the parking lot I encounter only normal traffic. I haven’t had any delays in many years in getting to the game, but I do arrive early enough to beat about 90% of the crowd.

They are going to start the reconstruction of I – 635 (LBJ) soon. This has been part of my normal driving path. So I need a new plan.
I have read that the average Dart rail train only travels at around 25 to 35 MPH. If I can find a secure place to park on the west side of Fair Park. I would probably save more time by doing this than if I took the slow train. But I have never parked on the west side and I am unfamiliar with this area?

They need to build additional ramps at the stadium….because by far the biggest source of congestion is just walking out of the stadium. It’s taken me as long as 45 minutes just to make my way out of the stadium since the new expansion. On the path I had been driving after the game once I’m 2 or 3 blocks out of the parking lot I encounter only normal traffic. I haven’t had any delays in many years in getting to the game, but I do arrive early enough to beat about 90% of the crowd.

25-35 miles would not be surprising, the rail was tracks they share with cargo probably have a max of 55 mph, then factor in the time for slowing for stops, waiting for passengers to enter/exit and getting back up to speed

The speed may be faster than you think. I believe it approaches 60mph in some sections of the Green line. It will slow significantly in the downtown area of course but that is still around 25mph (a guess). Even if the actual peak speed of movement is slower than in a car on the highway, I think avoiding the hassle of creeping out of the stadium parking lot trying to get to the highway would be worth it.

The speed may be faster than you think. I believe it approaches 60mph in some sections of the Green line. It will slow significantly in the downtown area of course but that is still around 25mph (a guess). Even if the actual peak speed of movement is slower than in a car on the highway, I think avoiding the hassle of creeping out of the stadium parking lot trying to get to the highway would be worth it.

From Dart’s official site
http://www.dart.org/newsroom/dartrailfacts.asp

Travel Speed: Top speed: 65 miles per hour.
Average speed: 25-35 miles per hour.


Once back to my vehicle and because of where I park it’s never taken me more than 10 minutes to make my way out of the largest parking lot on Fair Park property.

If I can find a place to park on the west side of Fair Park I am pretty sure the Train won’t be saving me any time.
+ I won’t be luging around my game day gear for as long.

I see - I suppose it would depend on how much stuff I carried around too. I tend to go very light to events like that.

I see - I suppose it would depend on how much stuff I carried around too. I tend to go very light to events like that.Along with binoculars and radio I go prepared to stay for any possible weather scenario, at all games.
Unless they are taking a knee I never leave a game until the final snap.
When the Sooners win the OU Texas game I always stick around until the coaches and players end their celebration and leave the field.
It's fun times……

I take the train whenever possible because the chances of being rear-ended by some teenager sending a text message or tweet is 0.00%.

I take the train whenever possible because the chances of being rear-ended by some teenager sending a text message or tweet is 0.00%.

Maybe 0.001%

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/10/02/us-usa-train-crash-idUSN0152835520081002

I hate to be cranky, but it's a pain to click here thinking there are new posts about our streetcar and find several pages of Dart discussion. Why don't you open a Dart/Dallas thread?

I know - sorry. It is my fault. I started out with something along the lines of how the successful aspects of DART could easily be part of OKC's future beginning with the streetcar....but then it went WAY off course.

New thread for DART topics created. Continue there now:

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=31196

Kansas City approved their streetcar by a wide margin. 69% in favor. When will government leaders realize people want transportation options that does not involve driving a car. (This from a car nut!)

I am looking forward to our streetcar system beginning of service and only wish for more miles of track and more $$ to speed up the timetable.

It sounds like government leaders will realize it when people vote for it and demand and that is what is happening now.

They are going to start the reconstruction of I – 635 (LBJ) soon. This has been part of my normal driving path. So I need a new plan.
I have read that the average Dart rail train only travels at around 25 to 35 MPH. If I can find a secure place to park on the west side of Fair Park. I would probably save more time by doing this than if I took the slow train. But I have never parked on the west side and I am unfamiliar with this area?

They need to build additional ramps at the stadium….because by far the biggest source of congestion is just walking out of the stadium. It’s taken me as long as 45 minutes just to make my way out of the stadium since the new expansion. On the path I had been driving after the game once I’m 2 or 3 blocks out of the parking lot I encounter only normal traffic. I haven’t had any delays in many years in getting to the game, but I do arrive early enough to beat about 90% of the crowd.

Take the Heartland Flyer. It goes all the way to Dallas' Union Station on Friday of that weekend and returns on Sunday. It's a blast! It's packed with revelers having a good time.

Take the Heartland Flyer. It goes all the way to Dallas' Union Station on Friday of that weekend and returns on Sunday. It's a blast! It's packed with revelers having a good time.

Thanks but the train doesn’t fit into my schedule, at all.

I have been told that many years ago they operated about 15 special trains down and back.
They would leave all day Friday and early Saturday morning. Trains would start heading back north an hour after the game and during the evening. On Sunday, most of the day. They had a temporary platform a few blocks away from Fair Park.

If they altered the time of the train I might be interested?

It would be good to have the capacity to do something similar with a commuter rail system that would bring fans to the games in Norman, stopping at the OU station.

the heartland flyer goes to ft worth ... not dallas ... right?

What page in this thread can I see the route for the streetcar? Don't feel like searching through 120 of them.....

From Urban Pioneer:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar1.jpg



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar3.jpg


This is it.

I am hopeful for a streetcar expansion to the west along the new boulevard, passing by the Farmer's Market, crossing the river using the Exchange bridge, and ending in the Stockyards. Add that to the routes illustrated above, we end up with an extensive streetcar system that serves just about every district of downtown.

the heartland flyer goes to ft worth ... not dallas ... right?

Ordinarily yes.

However they do a special for the OU Texas weekend that takes you to downtown Dallas after a stop in FW. It leaves AT normal time on Friday morning and arrives back late Sunday night at normal time.

I can beat the train’s time to Dallas driving by almost 2 hours. The train is way too slow and the schedule is very poor for most working people. I really wish the Heartland flyer went directly to Dallas or better yet the DFW airport.

Amtrak also runs a special from Austin

Nm

Ordinarily yes.

However they do a special for the OU Texas weekend that takes you to downtown Dallas after a stop in FW. It leaves AT normal time on Friday morning and arrives back late Sunday night at normal time.

I can beat the train’s time to Dallas driving by almost 2 hours. The train is way too slow and the schedule is very poor for most working people. I really wish the Heartland flyer went directly to Dallas or better yet the DFW airport.

Amtrak also runs a special from Austin

The only way to garner support in the conservative OK legislature was to compromise in having it stop at every single tiny town along the way to the Red River, and even then, the OK portion is much faster than the TX portion. Amtrak in TX is a slow nightmare.

We need HSR more than we need most of what they do in the OK legislature.

Thank you Urban Pioneer! I like the route they decided on for the initial rail, leaving good opportunities for expansion.

The MAPS3 Streetcar Subcommittee has done a great job and probably been the most "open" of all. The route selected looks to accomplish numerous goals with minimal compromises. The meeting today was a quiet but significant one - actual preparatory work will begin soon. I am convinced the streetcar, Central Park, and boulevard will be transformational projects equal to the Arena - possibly even more so for every day life of OKC citizens.

We have an impromptu meeting planned for tonight at Pachinko Parlor (basement party room) at 5:30, 6ish to compare notes over drinks and food. Transit and MAPS 3 enthusiasts are more than welcome.

Where will the maintenance facility be located? Will it be open for tours?

We have an impromptu meeting planned for tonight at Pachinko Parlor (basement party room) at 5:30, 6ish to compare notes over drinks and food. Transit and MAPS 3 enthusiasts are more than welcome.

Once again, I'm at work til 8pm ;-)

I apoligize up front for putting this here, please move if you wish. I heard Mayor Mick this morning speak about a possible shared maps tax through out the entire metro area for the extension of light rail service. That way, cost would be shared with all communities that would be serviced by the rail system. He was comparing this to what Tulsa is trying to do to share improvement cost on their 2030 plan, I believe that's what theirs is called.

Could this be the start of an RTA? or and end run to prevent one? What would the value of that be as opposed to an RTA?

I think it would be the start of an RTA - which is long over due.

From Urban Pioneer:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar1.jpg


UP: Has there been any discussion on what the route to the Plaza District would look like?

I can't wait to see cars turning left in front of these things. I don't know if I've said that already in this thread but it is relative to the subject.

I can't wait to see cars turning left in front of these things. I don't know if I've said that already in this thread but it is relative to the subject.

Unlike what you see in Houston - the OKC streetcar will be in the lane of traffic. If someone turns left in front of one of these they will do it from the right lane - which will likely cause an accident if we have streetcars or not.

I can't wait to see cars turning left in front of these things. I don't know if I've said that already in this thread but it is relative to the subject.

Why were they driving on the sidewalk in the first place?

Ummmmmmmm....watch the videos on YouTube...they're part of the street.

Ummmmmmmm....watch the videos on YouTube...they're part of the street.

They might be on the street but they are not in a traffic lane. Compare the Houston system which has an at-grade, adjacent, but seperate track vs Seattle's South Lake Union System where the tracks are actually in the lane of traffic. The OKC system will be like the systems in Seattle and Portland, not like Houston.