+5

On another note, I am with other OKC Transit reps at the APTA annual convention in New Orleans looking at vendors and their innovations for everything from signs, shelters, switches, and streetcar vehicles. I think there is something in order of 600 booths representing from all over the world. They are said to have set up and moved in three actual modern streetcar vehicles in here.

Hope to bring back lots of great material to challenge the consultants with. Also, I have gone a day early to spend on New Orleans very historic streetcar. They are about to expand it and are giving behind the scenes tours of the system and how it operates.

can't wait to see what you bring back

can't wait to see what you bring back

Thank you. I made many new contacts and have tons of information about what available, where the industry is at, and what is "cutting edge."

It is an exciting time to be doing a streetcar system.

Here's a few photos that might give people some scale on how big this convention was. Apparently, they have the vendor expo part every three years.

1007
Siemens Streetcar, Light Rail vehicle

1006
Bombardier Streetcar

1005
Bombardier Streetcar Interior Cockpit

I have posted pictures earlier of the Kinkisharyo unit via our trip to see it in Dallas.

+6

UP, Larry tends to focus on those kinds of things. Be assured that the vast majority of us appreciate the work and commitment put in by you and others.

I'll second that!

Larry, my friend, concerning the multimodal hub, during the campaign I didn't have the perception that MAPS 3 money would be used to build anything other than a start of the hub project, just like the downtown streetcar element is/was intended to be nothing other than a start.

I took another look at what Mayor Cornett said when talking about the rail and hub elements of MAPS 3 at the 3rd CoC luncheon on November 16, 2009. Below, I only have the audio and nothing other than a placeholder image for the speeches, but after Roy Williams' remarks, Cornett begins talking at 1:03. He starts talking about the future of rail transit in earnest at 4:30. After discussing that and other future rail possibilities, he said this about the hub, at 6:50 (use the slider to move to that point):






"We will also be looking to locate and build some sort of a phase 1 model of a transit hub so that in the future when we start to combine all of our public transit elements together ..."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaFFPre4zJU

Having heard his words, quoted above, perhaps you will be content with that. If not, I can research the matter further. But, for now, I've got to say with the rest,

+7

Doug: Maybe the Hub isn't one of those bait-n-switch moments after all. But one would have to admit that there have been numerous examples. One only has to listen to the Mayor at the 10:20 mark for the poster child "mistake" of MAPS 3.

Thanks for finding SOMETHING that would indicate that the Hub was just a "starter". Was this reported in the Oklahoman, Gazette, Journal Record? I still haven't found it anywhere and no one else has posted it either. Has anyone found anything that was widely available by the mass media that had a number attached for the Hub (other than the $10MM)? Anything close to the $128MM recently revealed? Thanks in advance.

Larry -- I'm not sure there are any direct references (not in the mood to search) to it being sold as a full hub. I think the general attitude was that it would be a starter hub. It didn't really have to be sold as a starter hub, because honestly $10 million won't build anything close to a full hub.

I guess the thing that irks me about this conversation is that is being potentially portrayed/interpreted by Larry that we knew the $128 million number before the Maps slate of projects was created.

Local transit enthusiasts, many of them that are essentially transit experts by now, already new that Santa Fe Station was the best place for the hub of any size. There are even articles in this thread to that effect. But in typical bureaucratic style, we had to go through the process of a lengthy study. The Maps slate was being created irregardless of waiting for a study to be completed, and we worked to include as many transit monies in the Maps program as politics would allow.

Those involved believed that Santa Fe would indeed be chosen and we worked with Councilmen White, Bowman, and the Mayor to secure the $10 million in Maps, a number we felt would adequately secure the property and preserve the ability to install a expanded facility as necessary.

Santa Fe as it stands is an existing facility that immediately can accommodate rail transit and pedestrian hub needs for at least the next 10 years and encompasses enough expansion capability to provide rail transit expansions for the next 60. It will provide an immediate central grounding point for streetcar access and provide direct existing linkage to Amtrak.

For $10 million, that's a pretty good return on investment. Larry again, with all do respect for your enthusiasm for transit, our understanding of what we need has expanded with the completion of the study. But transit supporters bet wisely and supported something that will bear out over time as needed. It was a calculated, planned decision that the press often "glazed over" and simplified. Plus, that's what you do in a campaign, you simplify things. I'm sure there is plenty of Maps literature that simply says "Modern streetcar and rail hub". I doubt any says "fully developed hub for all future needs".

We are getting a beautiful streetcar and repurposing a grand ol'e station. It's a great start to a future comprehensive system for all of Central Oklahoma.

Sit back and enjoy the ride.

I guess the thing that irks me about this conversation is that is being potentially portrayed/interpreted by Larry that we knew the $128 million number before the Maps slate of projects was created.
...
Those involved believed that Santa Fe would indeed be chosen and we worked with Councilmen White, Bowman, and the Mayor to secure the $10 million in Maps, a number we felt would adequately secure the property and preserve the ability to install a expanded facility as necessary.

Santa Fe as it stands is an existing facility that immediately can accommodate rail transit and pedestrian hub needs for at least the next 10 years and encompasses enough expansion capability to provide rail transit expansions for the next 60. It will provide an immediate central grounding point for streetcar access and provide direct existing linkage to Amtrak.

For $10 million, that's a pretty good return on investment. ...

Urban: you shouldn't be irked as I have tried to make it very clear it is not directed at you. It is directed at the City leadership/Chamber folks that ran the campaign. Time and time again, they twisted, half-truthed (simplified), spun and said anything and everything they thought the people wanted to hear just to get it passed.

I ran across several instances where the press didn't "glaze over" the Streetcars being a starter system, that Federal funds may be used to get more miles out of it, that commuter rail and high speed rail were further down the track, etc. So why did they glaze over the true cost of the Hub? Isn't the Hub part of MAPS 3? From the Journal Record article you posted the City Manager doesn't appear to agree with your latest post:


“To create this hub, a significant amount of funding is required to fund both the acquisition of property and the construction needed to create a functional transportation center,” City Manager Jim Couch told council members. “The city of Oklahoma City has identified some funding in the MAPS 3 program for this project, but additional funding is necessary.”
...
To build the fully integrated hub over the next few decades is expected to cost about $128 million in inflation-adjusted dollars, city officials said.

I have no idea if they knew the actual cost beforehand...if they did and hid that fact, that would be a bad thing. If they didn't know that goes back to doing the due diligence needed so these types of "surprises" don't happen. Is that what you are saying happened yet once again, that the City didn't know what they were doing?

This is in direct contradiction to what was reported previously...I will let those speak for themselves:

Oklahoma City MAPS 3 proposal includes streetcar system (Oklahoman, 11/30/09)

Including commuter rail in MAPS 3 brings up problems, though. For one, such a system is incredibly expensive. Federal transit money can help, but nothing is guaranteed, and city leaders didn't want to include projects in MAPS 3 that would require federal funds to complete.

In his 2010 State of the City speech:

"Number one - a runaway number one - was transit. And as you know, it was directly addressed in MAPS 3 with the modern streetcar, and funding for a transit hub. Put a check there.

...based on the history of MAPS and MAPS for Kids, I would anticipate the final MAPS 3 project to be completed by 2021.
...
We will be building a downtown streetcar system and a downtown transit center.
...
These are not just ideas. These are all funded projects, all approved and funded without any increase from the current level of taxation."

Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett (12/10/10)
http://www.worldmayor.com/contest_2010/world-mayor-2010-cornett.html

"Leaders should be both realistic and optimistic. Too many elected officials instinctively tell people what they want to hear. That is an irresponsible approach and is indefensible."
...
We have earned the citizens’ trust by delivering projects that meet or exceed the voters’ expectations. That trust is a very fragile asset that must be protected."

I have written my Councilman, City Manager & Mayor asking for clarification explaining the above statements and the cost escalation and why for all intents and purposes it appears it was "glazed over" (the $30MM for the substation sound familiar?). I will leave it at that unless someone chooses to bring it up again and I will respond.

"So why did they glaze over the true cost of the Hub? Isn't the Hub part of MAPS 3? From the Journal Record article you posted the City Manager doesn't appear to agree with your latest post:"

They didn't. How you are making literal comparisons from an article a week ago to pieces of articles several years ago I have no idea. Your literal interpretation and unwillingness to acknowledge that things evolve is most annoying. Go start a new thread somewhere else so that we can move forward.

Larry = OKC's Don Quixote.

Urban: responding by PM

Things have been very quiet on this thread for a while. Is it because there is a lull in the street car planning and simply nothing new to report? Urban??

On a related note, I have been researching commuter and high speed rail while I have been laid up after surgery. One system we should look at closely is the New Mexico DOT Rail Runner system. It was completed in 5 years - from planning to Phase II Operations. It connects Belen, Albuquerque, an Santa Fe and has been a resounding success in an area with even lower population density ( and total population) than OKC and Oklahoma as a state. There really is no reason in the world why a very similar system could not quickly be operational in the OKC metro using the Edmond - Norman and Will Rogers/Mustang - Tinker / Midwest City routes that have been mentioned eariler in this thread. It would follow the NORMAL funding models of local, state, and federal government support with some private investment.

It would take the local metro city leadership and state legislators from the OKC metro to raise cain to our Congressional representatives given our poor track record with previous attempts to improve transit in our state. It still astounds me that Sen Inhofe diverted funds for transit in OKC to Utah and was reelected. I understand we are home base for several petroleum based energy companies, but they have been good corporate citizens and would likely support another intitiative that would further improve quality of life in OKC. At least I hope they would.

Tomorrow, Wed (October 26th) the MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee meets at 3:30 PM at 420 Main in the 10th floor big conference room.

Main subjects:

1. Proposal on streetcar implementation procedure by ADG

2. Mark Gibbs presentation on his trip to see the electromagnetic streetcar in Germany manufactured by Bombardier

3. My trip to the APTA Conference in New Orleans and a distribution of materials about streetcars

4. Recommendation for the distribution of monies to COTPA to expand their contract with Jacobs for the Environmental contract to radiography examination of what is under the Reno and Sheridan railroad bridges going into Bricktown. (IE- are we going to have to modify the bridge foundations in any way to install rail to go into Bricktown?)


These are always public meetings and open to the public. We allow the committee to be addressed by citizens at the end of the meeting or on the relevant agenda item on topic.

Thanks UP. Would love to attend but not sure how far I would have to hobble on crutches to get there.

Positive progress on the streetcar front. Recommendations have made it through the Subcommittee and Oversight Board headed to council now to expand the existing Jacobs contract to begin official utility and existing underground conflict identification. I think it may make it to council on Tuesday. Areas of particular interest are the Reno/Sheridan Bridges into Bricktown and the Midtown route sections above 6th street..

Also, the idea of considering turn-key is starting to be more widely discussed. Something that the city has done only rarely. But it could potentially reduce liability and accountability to a singular major company. Consequently, that could provide more operational stability and reduce COTPA's responsibility to simply writing checks.

Either way, our people are going to make sure that this is done right. We have a very good committee.

Glad to hear it Urban, and thanks for all the hard work.

Thank you Urban. I really want to see the Mass Transit soon but I want to see it done right and I feel very confident in the committee that has been working on it. Thanks all of you men and women, you don't know how appreciated you are by the average citizen.

Thank you for the update UP. This sounds very promising. I am looking forward to being one of the first riders on this system.

Allow me to add my thanks to you and all the committee members who have done an outstanding job on this project.

16 December 2005

Dallas:
DART light rail pulls another major firm into city's downtown

More evidence of the magnetic appeal of rail transit in attracting development to help revitalize the cores of cities – this time, in Dallas, where the presence of the Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) light rail transit (LRT) line is apparently a significant factor in persuading major companies to locate their headquarters downtown.

The Dallas Morning News (1 December 2005) reports that the major Dallas architectural firm Corgan Associates Inc. is planning to build a new corporate office in downtown Dallas's West End district – once a run-down warehouse area, but now a vibrant center.of upscale restaurants, shops, and offices served by DART's West End LRT station.

The News reports that "Corgan is the third company this year – along with Hunt Consolidated Inc. and 7-Eleven Inc. – to announce plans to build its headquarters downtown."

According to the article, Corgan selected the West End site because it was a "Convenient location" with easy access to DART's light rail system "and other amenities in the entertainment district."

Old news is great news I guess...

That's true OKCisOK4me. I have been looking for quantifiable data about TOD from fairly new systems. 2005 is a little old I suppose but I posted it mainly because most OKC residents are probably familiar with the DART system.

This should probably have been in the "Commuter Transit Project Regresses" thread which hasn't yet been created. lol

Spur of the moment

Plans for commuter rail could be complicated by a transfer in ownership.

By Clifton Adcock November 2nd, 2011

Ownership of an Oklahoma City railroad spur critical to future commuter rail plans in the region is scheduled to be transferred from the state Department of Transportation to the Union Pacific Corp. at the end of November.

The rail line, extending east of Santa Fe Station, which is slated to be the city’s future intermodal transportation hub, to the east bank of the Oklahoma River, is under a 30-year lease-to-own agreement between the rail company and the state’s transportation department.

The state originally acquired the line from the now-defunct Rock Island and Pacific Railroad company, and now the final payment by Union Pacific to take over ownership of the line is scheduled to be made at the end of November.

Read more here:

http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-13426-spur-of-the-moment.html

I'm actually surprised Union Pacific didn't try and get it a long time ago since the track leads right out of their yard. (If I'm thinking of the correct one)

Also, if I read that right, doesn't it say Union Pacific does NOT have any plans for this section of track?

So the state is giving UP control of that line, that the state bought?

If you read carefully, their decision to give it up was made 30 years ago via a lease-purchase agreement when only the truly crazy were advocating for commuter rail. It is going to make it more difficult or at least expensive to get out to the NE side and/or Tinker.

Makes you wonder what ODOT uses the money on that they receive when they give up state rail assets.

:doh: If only this was a surprise......really??? Is this another example of complete lack of foresight by ODOT? I would say they use that money for road or bridge repairs but we know that isn't the case.

Eminent domain?

Eminent domain?

Yes, Eminem is dominant.

Railroad right typically got back to Lincoln and it is doubtful that any modern local rights would apply.

Yes, Eminem is dominant.

+1

Great comments and pictorial slides by Shadid with a response from Couch today at Council.

I had wondered about most of what Mr Shadid mentioned today - especially the rail right of way that is being sold to Union Pacific. IIRC, UP has been historically hostile or non-cooperative with transit and commuter rail projects along ROW's they own. If you look at the map of rail ines in downtown, it is going to be very difficult to get East-West lines to the Santa Fe station transit hub. I had thought a loop might work, but that depended upon access to those ROW's UP will own very soon. This doesn't bode well for HSR either. Then add in the lack of foresight in NOT building a rail bridge over I-44 and I-235 near 50th St sufficiently wide to accomodate both BNSF and future commuter rail just doesn't lead me to believe anyone is seriously studying what will be required for even a simple commuter rail systm in the OKC Metro.

Good Lord help me, but all this "new" information is making Tom Elmore's consternation about losing Union Station as a possible transit hub look pretty good.

It's not really all that new. It's just that educated people in leadership positions are just now realizing what "lost" opportunities have occurred over the years as each of these past decisions come into potential conflict with plans. Commuter rail is a complicated ambition. It will take people who care enough to ask the tough decisions. With all the planning bringing clarity as to how complicated it is, we have to ask ourselves "Are we serious about this?"

If we are, we will make decisions now that will save us money in the future. Regarding dealing with the railroads, other cities have and do. It is not impossible or improbable. But it does take commitment.

And regarding Union Station, I believe that we would still have the same complications with the same locations irregardless whether the hub was placed there as envisioned by Elmore. The same corridors and conflicts would exist.

Commitment - that is what I wonder about more than anything. I know there is a significant segment of the population that is committed to seeing a modern transit system as part of the OKC Metro's future. But are our various municipalities' leadership equally committed? If so, when is the earliest election a Metro Transit tax proposal could be put to a vote?

A Metro transit authority will be necessary (such as DART) to ever see a commuter rail or light rail system built. OKC is taking the first step with the downtown streetcar; and the city council and mayor rightly state the other cities should contribute to any regional system. I honestly think a "transit tax" would likely pass in Edmond, Norman, OKC, MWC, and probably Moore. Yukon, Del City, Mustang, and Shawnee I am not so sure about but hope they would want to be included. So all this leads me to ask if there are any plans to establish a regional transit authority (COPTA doesn't seem to fill this role honestly) in the near future that will be empowered to begin the planning process for real improvements in transit?

(I was mostly joking about Union Station - there certainly were issues with that location as well. I think the Santa Fe site could be great if appropriate resources are dedicated to its design and construction.)

CaptDave,

With regards to the BNSF bridge over I-235 near 50th St., it will have to be replaced when they widen out that last portion of the Broadway Extension project. The same will probably have to be done with the brown bridge over I-44 or they can build a commuter rail bridge alongside the current bridge. By the time that bridge near 50th is replaced, we may be much closer to a solid commuter answer.

UP - did you mention in another thread that the Hub was planning for 3 platforms? Does that mean a 6 track capacity?

CaptDave,

With regards to the BNSF bridge over I-235 near 50th St., it will have to be replaced when they widen out that last portion of the Broadway Extension project. The same will probably have to be done with the brown bridge over I-44 or they can build a commuter rail bridge alongside the current bridge. By the time that bridge near 50th is replaced, we may be much closer to a solid commuter answer.

My question is this - are they planning to replace it with a bridge wide enough to accomodate both BNSF and future commuter rail? It would seem prudent to me to do so since this is the most likely first phase of a commuter rail system in OKC. I am not 100% sure how the cost would be shared but I assume BNSF, ODOT, and local government would contribute.

My question is this - are they planning to replace it with a bridge wide enough to accomodate both BNSF and future commuter rail? It would seem prudent to me to do so since this is the most likely first phase of a cummuter rail system in OKC. I am not 100%sure how the cost would be shared but I assume BNSF, ODOT, and local government would contribute.

Unless they are going to double mainline I doubt BNSF will pay much, their is limited use for BNSF of a parallel commuter line, and may even be detrimental to possibly expanding to double mainline track later. If the extension to the heartland flyer goes through to Kansas it sounded like they would were factoring in to upgrades to double track in at least parts of OKC for projected costs.

While looking at condos here in Philly I came across The Phoenix. I found this comment very enticing. Something to think about as rail comes to Oklahoma.

http://www.phillyphoenix.com/amenities.php


The Phoenix condo offers instant Atrium access to the Suburban Station Concourse, which allows residents to stroll to nearby offices, or connect with rail service to 30 th Street Station, New York City, Philadelphia International Airport and the world beyond—all without stepping outside.

Home to any point in the world without having to step outside.

Seems like the future is pointing more toward BRT and LRT along Classen>NW Expressway rather than comprehensive commuter rail. That's a shame, because the commuter rail would be so much less expensive.

Seems like the future is pointing more toward BRT and LRT along Classen>NW Expressway rather than comprehensive commuter rail. That's a shame, because the commuter rail would be so much less expensive.

I don't follow. It's not technically feasible or the right application for such a cooridoor to the nw. The street grid requiring protected crossings, warning horns in residential, and frequent stops that commuter loco's can't efficiently perform.

Not sure what you mean by this.

They could do cut and cover along NWExp but that would be expensive.

We did not successfully receive the TIGER 3 grant for our Intermodal Hub Application in December. However, the odds were not very high considering the following.

"The Department of Transportation (DOT) received 848 project applications from all 50 states, Puerto Rico and Washington, DC, requesting a total of $14.29 billion, far exceeding the $511 million made available for grants under the TIGER III program." per the FTA website. http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2011/dot16511.html

ODOT did however receive some monies to improve freight rail in Western Oklahoma.

What about any grants for the streetcar, not the hub?

What about any grants for the streetcar, not the hub?

We are going through the FTA required Environmental process right now. The Federal fiscal year ends September 30th so I would expect applications for both during 2012 and 2013 easily. And because our MAPS program is spread out over several years, I would expect even more applications beyond that. You can be rest assured that we will apply at any opportunity during this process in an attempt to maximize the MAPS 3 investment. That also includes creating new opportunities through the choices in types of transit investments that can be used as leverage as it relates to the MAPS monies available.

$511 million for the entire country. We should have called it a solar company and we could have gotten that much for one project. Like I said before, any state wanting to implement rail is going to have to do without the US government. Politicans in areas where rail doesn't exist are only interested in highway.

$511 million for the entire country.

It is absurd isn't it.

It is absurd isn't it.

It is actually a national embarrassment and a sign to me that this country at the national level has thrown in the towel.

We did not successfully receive the TIGER 3 grant for our Intermodal Hub Application in December. However, the odds were not very high considering the following.

"The Department of Transportation (DOT) received 848 project applications from all 50 states, Puerto Rico and Washington, DC, requesting a total of $14.29 billion, far exceeding the $511 million made available for grants under the TIGER III program." per the FTA website. http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2011/dot16511.html

ODOT did however receive some monies to improve freight rail in Western Oklahoma.

That's disappointing. Although IIRC the City was very optimistic that the money would come thru weren't they? Thought I saw that at a Council presentation a while back???

$511 million for the entire country.

I hope the entire country gets to drive on our new stretch of I-40 that cost $169 million more ;-)

Good point on I-40. I do think that the highway project is reflective of how Washington has changed regarding transportation funding in a broad sense. Totally gridlocked and unable to fund much of anything substantial. We happened to pursue the new Crosstown at a time when infrastructure/transportation spending was not demonized and more readily available.

I commend Senator Inhofe for not conceding to partisan anti-tax/wasteful spending rhetoric when it comes to infrastructure. He gave a fairly eloquent speech at the dedication and is probably the best influence we have in Washington when it comes to infrastructure bills. Depending on 2012 elections, his seniority would place him in a great position of influence if Republicans regained control of the Senate. Even if not, it is my hope that in the spirit of bi-partisanship, he will be able to negotiate for funding opportunities for Oklahoma City projects.

I hope the entire country gets to drive on our new stretch of I-40 that cost $169 million more ;-)

That would be awesome, if 1/4 of them stop and eat/shop, just think of the tax dollars it would bring, Great Idea.

I don't know if it has been mentioned but on August 19th, Norfolk, Virginia, started operating procedures on their 7.4 mile, $318.5 million light rail system. Not too shabby!

That would be awesome, if 1/4 of them stop and eat/shop, just think of the tax dollars it would bring, Great Idea.

Most of them would run out of gas sitting in traffic.

I don't know if it has been mentioned but on August 19th, Norfolk, Virginia, started operating procedures on their 7.4 mile, $318.5 million light rail system. Not too shabby!

Here is a story on it. 75,000 trips in the first 72 hours.

http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_nfk_2011-09a.htm


Norfolk, Virginia — After decades of campaigning and planning, on 19 August 2011 this urban area near Virginia's Atlantic coast finally opened its first light rail transit (LRT) starter line, a nifty little system branded as The Tide that runs eastward 7.4 miles (11.9 km) from the city's Medical Center area, through the CBD, and on to its eastern terminus at Newtown Road. It's America's latest interurban-type LRT system, and initial indications are it's a big hit.

The next MAPS 3 Streetcar/Transit Subcommittee meeting is:

January 25th, Wednesday
3:30 PM
420 Main (10th Floor Conference Room)

The next MAPS 3 Streetcar/Transit Subcommittee meeting is:

January 25th, Wednesday
3:30 PM
420 Main (10th Floor Conference Room)

I'd love to go to one of these things but they just don't work out with my work schedule...EVER :-(

EVER :-(

So sorry... lol Maybe at some point we will have a public meeting at a couple diverse times to gather additional input if it is warranted in the future. Right now, MAPS meetings are normally scheduled by city staff and are "back to back" during the day. They usually put us last because we tend to go a bit longer. lol The Park Subcommittee is right before us in the same room. Actually, sometimes we have to wait on them too.