"Becker’s next goal is to bring streetcars to downtown Salt Lake City, which it has already started getting federal funding for, recently receiving half a million dollars for this project."

Not that half a million dollars is a lot of purchasing power, but it's interesting that federal money is available for a downtown streetcar.

Their $55 million Sugar House line just got a check from the Feds for $26 million in October.

I also hesitate to add to map after map after map, but when I was playing with some routes I noticed that Western Avenue might be a great candidate. It is a quiet non-arterial street that is right in the middle of a lot of things, with great expansion potential to the north all the way to Chesapeake. Maybe a 2-mile single track along Classen Dr and Western to 30th for the first phase. This shows potential up to I-44. I included 5- and 10-minute walking radii to show how close it gets to a lot of major destinations. I used 700 meters (.43 mi) for a 10-minute walk, which is actually a little less than the standard estimate of 800 meters (.5 mi).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/eyeblink/westernavenue.jpg

This route would easily place a LOT of important institutions, neighborhoods, and businesses within a 10-15 minute walk, or a 5-minute bike ride, including the Paseo, Plaza, Asian Dist, and Uptown areas. Major TOD potential with at least 3.5 blocks of surface parking on Western between 23rd and 18th. Also plenty of empty land near Western between 23rd and Fairlawn Cemetery.

I was actually thinking about Western Avenue and thought it had some incredible potential as a couplet paired with Classen. There's only ONE block in between the two, and that block between Western and Classen is perfect for TOD because it's not historically protected or significant, in fact it's kind of slummy compared to surrounding areas. Like a Robinson/Broadway transit mall, the couplet routes would be on the inside of the transit mall, so going north up Classen and south down Western so you don't have to cross 6 lanes of Classen Blvd.

Alternatively there is some incredible potential with Classen's median. Also one little factoid to consider is that similarly to downtown, there is a streetscape coming to Western and that could hurt or benefit streetcar. That streetscape will need to be transit-friendly, or perhaps even offers opportunities for collaboration. I still think 23rd should be the streetscape spine for the north side. In a 30-year system we might even look at separating the northside, downtown, and southside systems and giving each of them their own hub and the northside's hub could be right at 23rd/Classen (the CVS or Walgreens) could be an opportunity worth looking at, because of the potential of many different north side lines to all come together right there at 23rd/Western/Classen and because of what an underdeveloped intersection that is, the amazing TOD potential.

How do people feel about the Capitol as an "anchor?"

How do people feel about the Capitol as an "anchor?"

Should be yes.

How do people feel about the Capitol as an "anchor?"

As an "anchor"? I don't like that. Lincoln Blvd, especially north of the capitol, is the hinterlands. It will be difficult to get TOD potential along Lincoln because between the medical district and the capitol is a historically protected area and everything else is owned by the state. Furthermore the capitol is just too isolated from where the bulk of potential streetcar areas in OKC are that it makes no sense. I also think if the state workers are going to get a route catering to them then the state needs to pay for it. I know Skip Kelly isn't satisfied unless alllll of the streetcar is in his district, but he needs to be okay with just Deep Deuce being included because even that is looking unlikely now, and then he needs to help out in trying to get streetcar funding from the feds if we're going to make a government line go up Lincoln and deeper into NE OKC.

For me, especially if the people of OKC are paying for all of it, that just doesn't do anything. The priority of areas that the streetcar should serve are as follows in my mind: 1 Downtown (including BT, Arts, DD, MT), 2 Uptown, 3 Capitol Hill (with another city vote), 4 Plaza, 5 Paseo, 6 Medical District/Capitol (with fed/state funding), 7 Western Avenue, 8 extend 23rd line beyond Uptown (serve OCU, connect other lines), 9 Stockyards City and more southside (with another city vote)

How do people feel about the Capitol as an "anchor?"

You are joking Right?!?!

I feel that is a huge waste for an anchor!

I will be very disappointed if the streetcar goes anywhere near Lincoln in the phase 1 or 2 or 3!!!

Take a look at the actual work schedule of the people at the Capitol and see how little they would actually use the streetcar. The same goes for the Health Science area, many people in this area but very few have the luxury to move around much using a streetcar.

Another question would be, How many of our state politicians would actually vote for a streetcar or help Okc receive federal funding? I would bet very few, most would have turned down streetcar for Okc!

If the Capitol wants to ride let them pitch in and gather additional federal funding to help pay for a stop nearby.

Not against an "anchor" line going to the Capital per se, but as Spartan and even the Mayor suggested, the State should probably be involved in the cost (just as the cost to various burbs should be shared by those burbs). The costs of a line going to Tinker should be shared by the Feds (but then again, probably end up with a county bond issue paying for it).

You are joking Right?!?!

I feel that is a huge waste for an anchor!

I will be very disappointed if the streetcar goes anywhere near Lincoln in the phase 1 or 2 or 3!!!

Take a look at the actual work schedule of the people at the Capitol and see how little they would actually use the streetcar. The same goes for the Health Science area, many people in this area but very few have the luxury to move around much using a streetcar.

Another question would be, How many of our state politicians would actually vote for a streetcar or help Okc receive federal funding? I would bet very few, most would have turned down streetcar for Okc!

If the Capitol wants to ride let them pitch in and gather additional federal funding to help pay for a stop nearby.

Interesting reaction. lol I do think that it is appropriate to ask though. Philosophically, I agree about the funding. Technically, we do know that there are a great many people who travel there for different reasons. The thing that I find fascinating about it, is that it sits in the middle of essentially a highway interchange. It is a completely isolated place (from a pedestrian point of view). It is nearly impossible to walk out of the "ring" unless you walk due south on Lincoln.

First let me say that is too bad the Capitol was built so far away from downtown to begin with. I think anything that connects the Capitol Complex with downtown is a good thing. To my knowledge Oklahoma is the only state where the capitol is not in or adjacent to the center of business.

Interesting reaction. lol I do think that it is appropriate to ask though. Philosophically, I agree about the funding. Technically, we do know that there are a great many people who travel there for different reasons. The thing that I find fascinating about it, is that it sits in the middle of essentially a highway interchange. It is a completely isolated place (from a pedestrian point of view). It is nearly impossible to walk out of the "ring" unless you walk due south on Lincoln.

Maybe I overreacted a little, lol. It is a dilemma, huge employment in this area but I believe ridership would be small.

I do know the Capitol and OUHSC along Lincoln has always been in the streetcar discussion. Obviously there are many people in the Capitol area and employment along Lincoln, but I don't think this area would have a high amount of ridership. Same goes for the Health Science Center, there would be the commute to work crowd both morning and evening but after 6pm those areas are dead.

Something I have heard many times is people thinking that the OUHSC could influx people to Bricktown for lunch. I believe that most employees and students in the OUHSC very rarely have the luxury to step out of the building for longer than 15 mins, the complete opposite of the business district.

Here is my streetcar destination list;
downtown
midtown
auto alley
uptown 23rd
deep deuce
asian district
paseo
plaza
western ave (crown heights)

I am leaving off bricktown.

I love the idea of Bricktown having the HUB between Reno and Sheridan along Broadway, I do not like the idea of Bricktown having a streetcar moving throughout the area.

What will happen to Bricktown if it has poor streetcar access AND poor convention center access? Does our first revitalized district deserve that?

Shane, I agree 100%. I think the misnomer is that Bricktown will thrive because it has for as long as we can easily remember. We haven't had a West End happen here, and the West End comparisons are certainly getting weaker as Dallas is getting some results in bringing the West End back. It's more important that we look at Bricktown as part of a package that includes other neighborhoods and not separate. The streetcar will lead to organic growth for the first time in 60+ years in OKC, so we need Bricktown to be a key destination in the system.

Jeff/Lee, I think think Uptown 23rd is so perfect for streetcar that if you've got to serve an auxiliary neighborhood, that seems by far the best one to get to, especially above something that might be attractive to alternative funding sources that isn't really part of the organic "next step" out from downtown which Uptown 23rd undoubtedly is. Plaza/Paseo certainly are good ones too, but Paseo is too far.

What will happen to Bricktown if it has poor streetcar access AND poor convention center access?

The convention center is another issue, I would hope that it is located at the lumberyard site giving easy pedestrian access into Bricktown. Also locating the streetcar hub to the west along Broadway and Reno would give Bricktown another great asset for more pedestrians to venture into the district. Again place the streetcar hub to the west of Bricktown's main entrances, this is a major piece to the streetcar, in many ways more valuable than having tracks into the district.


Does our first revitalized district deserve that?

I believe Bricktown will continue with slow growth the same pace as it has for the past ten years. The Bricktown property owners seem to be their own problem. Owners that have been speculating and sitting on their valuable assets for many years hoping for someone to pay their asking prices or have decided that making money from parking lots is their best investment. Others over paid for their property and now can't justify a quality development that may or may not pay them healthy return on their investment.

Jeff/Lee, I think think Uptown 23rd is so perfect for streetcar that if you've got to serve an auxiliary neighborhood, that seems by far the best one to get to, especially above something that might be attractive to alternative funding sources that isn't really part of the organic "next step" out from downtown which Uptown 23rd undoubtedly is. Plaza/Paseo certainly are good ones too, but Paseo is too far.

Spartan, you have sold me on Uptown 23rd as an excellent route and that is why I moved it near the top on my list, and should definitely be connected with the initial route. If the route could run 23rd between Robinson and Classen (maybe further west, Blackwelder?) would be perfect.

I keep looking at the maps and wonder why not consider Robinson and Hudson as the trasit mall couplet? From Sheridan to 13th street, using Hudson as opposed to Broadway, keeping the Robinson route all the way through to 23rd?

If we see the extension out of downtown as an attractive destination for people, what does 23rd offer in your opinion? I see it as about more than just getting somewhere. There has to be a somewhere to get to.

If we see the extension out of downtown as an attractive destination for people, what does 23rd offer in your opinion? I see it as about more than just getting somewhere. There has to be a somewhere to get to.


I really don't see much along 23rd street. Why not send it south to Capitol Hill? Around 25th & Robinson? I bet you would get more ridership from that area than you would from NW 23rd st. area. I never see any diagrams of the streetcar going south. Why is that? That area has far more poor people without transportation than prob. anywhere in the city but I never hear a thing about the streetcar going down there.

I really don't see much along 23rd street. Why not send it south to Capitol Hill? Around 25th & Robinson? I bet you would get more ridership from that area than you would from NW 23rd st. area. I never see any diagrams of the streetcar going south. Why is that? That area has far more poor people without transportation than prob. anywhere in the city but I never hear a thing about the streetcar going down there.

The biggest problem going south out of downtown is getting to Capitol Hill with the amount of track available in Phase 1. This is where there was some confusion over what people thought streetcars were going to be. Several people thought OKC would build a downtown circulator and that would be it. Ridership would come from downtown residents, office workers, hotel guest, and people that arrived downtown via a car. Any future rail expansion would be limited to commuter rail. That was wrong.

The goal of the OKC City Council is to build a complete streetcar network in phases that just serves the City of Oklahoma City. This will result in 6 to 8 streetcar lines that serve all areas of the urban core (a 50 sq. mile area of central OKC) and include either a central hub or a downtown transit mall. Future connections to a commuter rail system are still possible but the City does not want to make their system dependent on outside forces to be successful. Streetcars will come to Capitol Hill, it just might be in phase 2, 3, or 4.

Spartan, you have sold me on Uptown 23rd as an excellent route and that is why I moved it near the top on my list, and should definitely be connected with the initial route. If the route could run 23rd between Robinson and Classen (maybe further west, Blackwelder?) would be perfect.

I keep looking at the maps and wonder why not consider Robinson and Hudson as the trasit mall couplet? From Sheridan to 13th street, using Hudson as opposed to Broadway, keeping the Robinson route all the way through to 23rd?

The problem with Hudson/Robinson isn't so much about those streets themselves, although I do dislike both (while still agreeing that Robinson is very strategic)..the problem is that in my mind, Broadway needs the streetcar. Automobile Alley is our most impressive urban corridor and I just think there's something romantic about the idea of streetcars gliding up and down that corridor. And I do think it is very important to make sure the streetcar goes through sexy urban areas. Not only does it make the TOD better, but it increases the perception of downtown. Hudson will still see improvements as a part of P180, being 1 block from the Robinson line, and other initiatives--but the streetcar riders get to experience that romantic idea of gliding up Broadway. I think that's important. I'm not attacking Hudson, because it does have the bus hub, cultural amenities, and Devon--but I just don't see it as a "must do."

Betts--I think there are enormous opportunities along 23rd for a destination. I would argue it is further along than Paseo. If we make Paseo an initial destination, you've got art galleries and 4 restaurants, and I don't see that being all that much of an anchor. Uptown 23rd has just as many restaurants, an arts presence, and legitimate diversification in terms of locally-owned businesses of all stripes..several Asian food joints, antique shops, Big Truck Tacos, Cheever's, the Blue Note, the Tower Theater, the Gold Dome (Prohibition Room, et al), tattoo parlors, Market C, designers and architect offices, dog parlors, hair salons, Cuppies & Joe and other Cottage tenants, and more.

There's actually a sizable amount of development underway along 23rd as well--the Phase 2 of the 23rd Street Cottages is u/c behind Cuppies and Joe, the Sun Moon Plaza, the Tower Theater, and so on. More importantly there is a strong amount of residential density along the fringes of Heritage Hills/Mesta Park and J. Park/Paseo..a lot of the old apt bldgs have been immaculately renovated in the last 10 years. 23rd's streetscape project and the old storefronts would also strongly compliment a streetcar environment. The tracks could be laid where the parallel parking currently is, because as Uptown 23rd grows parking is going to have to be addressed anyway. Surface parking could be added behind the storefronts where there are some vacant lots on the south side of 24th Street, or across from the Tower Theater, etc.

I really don't see much along 23rd street. Why not send it south to Capitol Hill? Around 25th & Robinson? I bet you would get more ridership from that area than you would from NW 23rd st. area. I never see any diagrams of the streetcar going south. Why is that? That area has far more poor people without transportation than prob. anywhere in the city but I never hear a thing about the streetcar going down there.

As a southsider, the problem with going south out of downtown in Phase 1 is the void between downtown and Capitol Hill. That's a lot of empty space to transverse that won't be developed for 20 years if we're lucky to focus a Phase 1 on. There are "poor people" without transportation as well as people who decide to live car-free of their own volition every where you go. There are a lot of them around 23rd which is about as inner city as it gets in OKC.

What do you not see along 23rd that you do see elsewhere? If you don't think there's that much along 23rd, would you mind listing what you think are the potential list of attractions along 23rd and compare it to a list for a comparable alternative?

The city has never said there will be future phases, but people intimate with the streetcar phase have said it is necessary to a successful streetcar transit approach. We can make it serve the whole city, we just can't do it with one phase. The city council wants to sit there on the bench and make heavy criticisms about the route because it doesn't serve the whole city without talking about how many phases and miles they're willing to fund. Pete White is lying through his teeth if he wants to say something has changed for the worse, because nothing has changed. He knew all along it would be $130M for 6 miles including support facilities and staff and a multi modal transit hub and a bunch of other stuff we can build on for the future, and that has never changed and won't, we hope (unless the bids come in below projections).

What we need is to stop arguing over the short-term plan and work together to form a long-term plan and then make concessions about what makes the first round, in exchange for commitments to fund the future.

It seems to me that you have to consider both where riders are coming from and where they want to go. I would be surprised if there is a current demand for riders from the Capital Hill area to downtown for working, banking, or entertainment, whereas the 23rd street area probably does have. Has the migration pattern been really investigated and forecast? Who is likely to want to, and need to go where.

It seems to me that you have to consider both where riders are coming from and where they want to go. I would be surprised if there is a current demand for riders from the Capital Hill area to downtown for working, banking, or entertainment, whereas the 23rd street area probably does have. Has the migration pattern been really investigated and forecast? Who is likely to want to, and need to go where.

Hadn't even considered that, and that's an excellent point, Rover. People in Capitol Hill aren't so much wanting to go downtown for the evening as they're wanting to go to the grocery store or to work, which is most likely somewhere else on the southside. I think a Capitol Hill line would be a lot more successful if it's done in conjunction with somewhere else on the southside, and not so much as a connection to downtown. I'm not saying people on 23rd only want to go downtown or that 23rd is part of downtown whereas Capitol Hill isn't, but it's easy to see strong interaction between 23rd Uptown and downtown. It's not that they're gentrified, because we all know 23rd has grit, it's just that 23rd has such a strong mix and a positive trajectory as an up-and-coming area that it's a better fit if we have to include something along with downtown.

We can't stray so far from the reservation on this that we're making this anything other than a downtown circulator in Phase 1. Uptown 23rd is a natural progression from that and has extremely close proximity, less than a mile away, that it makes sense. Anywhere else, I'd have to see a strong argument for.

Let me add one thing - this isn't just about poor people having mass transit. The goal is not to provide streetcars to poor people. The goal is to provide a means of transportation that allows, and encourages, higher density development in all income ranges. It is just as important to get Joe off of his rusted bicycle as it is to get Bob out of his stretch limo. Streetcar riderships transcends all economic groups.

I have a friend that works for major corporation in downtown Atlanta and he rides MARTA to work. He sees the CEO of his company on it everyday. Sitting at the same seat are people with $8 per hour jobs and people with 8 figure jobs. OKC needs more of that.

Let me add one thing - this isn't just about poor people having mass transit. The goal is not to provide streetcars to poor people. The goal is to provide a means of transportation that allows, and encourages, higher density development in all income ranges. It is just as important to get Joe off of his rusted bicycle as it is to get Bob out of his stretch limo. Streetcar riderships transcends all economic groups.

I have a friend that works for major corporation in downtown Atlanta and he rides MARTA to work. He sees the CEO of his company on it everyday. Sitting at the same seat are people with $8 per hour jobs and people with 8 figure jobs. OKC needs more of that.

The wording of this is kind of odd, but I agree. I wouldn't say it's not about poor people though. It's about making downtown more accessible to poor people, and not just confining them to poor people areas. It's about making downtown viable for that incredible mixture of diversity that we're already seeing take root downtown. A certain neighborhood does not have a monopoly on poor people, so we don't have to be bound by socioeconomic boundaries in order for this to serve the people who need transit most. What this will do is tear down the socioeconomic boundaries and bring more people of every type into the city center. It will be a change that eventually radiates outward and effects the entire city.

The streetcar is going to be a downtown circulator. It's going to be double track, therefore, 3 miles at the most.
It will not serve the needs of the transportation needy.
It will look very sexy on flyers the city and The Chamber prints.
This has already been decided. The public meetings are designed to lead the participants to the way it was already planned, not the other way.
The MAPS Streetcar subcommitte is told what to expect.

I'm not being cynical nor do I want to sound like a know it all. Everyone on this thread is excited and interested. So am I.

Anything built now needs to be compatible with future expansion and with other types of transit options.
For example if commuter rail is developed a trolley line or light rail from a hub station to the Capitol and OUHSC would be feasible.

In the end if we want a successful system we need to be sure and keep things like this and speed of service in mine from the very start.

The streetcar is going to be a downtown circulator. It's going to be double track, therefore, 3 miles at the most.
It will not serve the needs of the transportation needy.
It will look very sexy on flyers the city and The Chamber prints.
This has already been decided. The public meetings are designed to lead the participants to the way it was already planned, not the other way.
The MAPS Streetcar subcommitte is told what to expect.

I'm not being cynical nor do I want to sound like a know it all. Everyone on this thread is excited and interested. So am I.

I tend to believe we're actually starting to get away from double-track. For the north south spine, I think what the leading option is would be a "transit mall" comprised of two separate streets adjacent, such as Robinson and Broadway, all the way from 10th/Park Circle down to the new blvd. Instead of arguing over which downtown neighborhood doesn't make the cut, why don't we forgo rapid service to 3 neighborhoods in the first phase and offer streetcar stops every 15 minutes instead on a single track, and that way the Arts District or Deep Deuce doesn't fail to make the cut.

And if increasing pressure to go beyond downtown mounts, which it seems to be, that can be an opportunity and not a limitation. An opportunity to branch out to 23rd Street or Plaza and offer 15 minute service as well with a single track.

Again, single track vs. double track is something that needs to be revisited. There's no doubt we can go back and double track a single line and upgrade the service frequency, which undoubtedly would be needed along 23rd, but in the starter system, do we need to double track everything? It would seem that we could just double track strategic main parts that would allow for the furthest end of the line to still have relatively fast service.

And it's not so much a matter of how fast the service is but rather how many streetcars we're able to fit onto an individual line without running into each other with bad timing. I don't think you're being cynical, I just think that's where this process was last summer. Of course, I can only pinpoint where last week's thinking was, because things change so fast before it gets out, but it's a rapidly evolving semi-public process that is definitely coming up with some awesome ideas and vetting everything to the max. Jeff and the rest of the subcommittee are doing an awesome job, and AA has been doing alright, too.

It is going to be double tracked. You can put that issue to rest.

So what happened to couplets?

So what happened to couplets?

There might be couplets - but that is still double track. Each half of the couplet will be one-way.

The MAPS Streetcar subcommitte is told what to expect.

I'm sorry. This made me laugh. Particullarly in light of the last two council meetings. If we've been told anything that may influence our goals, it is the opposite of your assertions, to not make it downtown centric and try to connect to something "meaningful" at the other end... And that will be debated further.

It looks like I started typing about the time Urban Pioneer posted his comment above:

I think there are enough reasons to consider couplets for that to be far more likely than double track. Nothing has been decided on a route yet, although hopefully there will be a tentative route soon. Remember, any route that is determined will have to be evaluated from an engineering standpoint, and I wouldn't be shocked to find out there are certain things we cannot do from an engineering standpoint and that compromises will need to be made.

Kerry, although I think now MARTA has a more balanced ridership, that happened when fuel prices last skyrocketed. Before that, MARTA was primarily seen as mass transit for the poor and, like alot of people in Oklahoma City think, it was felt to be transit for those who couldn't afford a car. That is something that needs to be avoided in Oklahoma City, as we've already got that problem with bus ridership perceptions here.

Ideally, to me, we'll have a extended downtown circulator, because that's where many of our leisure time venues for the city are and will be, with an initial attempt to reach out to at least one residential and/or commercial area outside downtown. I am hoping we will ultimately have a plan for expansion to multiple areas that people can see and get excited about and that will be the foundation for attempts to obtain federal money, a MAPS 4 proposal ultimately, etc. Like Core to Shore, I think we have to look on improved mass transit in the city as an ongoing process. I'm not sure there's a quick fix, although that shouldn't stop us from looking at ways to improve existing mass transit as we work towards a cohesive plan involving multiple types of mass transit.

Kerry, although I think now MARTA has a more balanced ridership, that happened when fuel prices last skyrocketed. Before that, MARTA was primarily seen as mass transit for the poor and, like alot of people in Oklahoma City think, it was felt to be transit for those who couldn't afford a car. That is something that needs to be avoided in Oklahoma City, as we've already got that problem with bus ridership perceptions here.

It depends on which MARTA line you ride. Poor people have NEVER been the primary riders on the north portion of the Red Line. Now granted, there is a reason why there is not an express train from downtown to the airport. If they did, the south half of the system would become very scary.

It depends on which MARTA line you ride. Poor people have NEVER been the primary riders on the north portion of the Red Line. Now granted, there is a reason why there is not an express train from downtown to the airport. If they did, the south half of the system would become very scary.

I will disagree with you. My daughter used to work up near the Perimeter Mall and lived down near the Metropolitan Parkway in Capitol Hill Manor. Until the rapid increase in gas prices occurred, she refused to ride MARTA up to work, even though the line stopped less than a block from where she worked. I rode it many times up to meet her after work and it was filled with poor people. We finally got her to use it one day when she was worried about how to get to the airport from work in time to catch a flight. Her parents, who live in OKC, both said in unison, "Take MARTA", as we knew driving would take an hour and a half. She said, "Wow, I never thought of that". She took it and once gas prices got too high, began to take it to work. Her comment then was, "You won't believe all the people who are now taking MARTA because of high gas prices".

The perception of who the streetcar serves is key. It has to be seen as transit for everyone from the day it opens, especially in Oklahoma City, which has such a negative attitude towards mass transit. Obviously mass transit has to exist for people who cannot afford a car. But it also needs to be seen as an alternative to a car by those who have one if we are going to move towards becoming a city with a functional mass transit system.

If we see the extension out of downtown as an attractive destination for people, what does 23rd offer in your opinion? I see it as about more than just getting somewhere. There has to be a somewhere to get to.

Uptown 23rd street, has much to offer in many ways; residential density, commercial, historical, diversity, university, and ethnicity. I would suggest having the route travel north along Robinson from 13th to 23rd street, then move west as far as possible, aiming for 23rd and Blackwelder (this would take us directly in front of OCU).

On a side note, something I also have thought about is the future for a MAPS 4 and attracting voters. I believe the ward 2 and specifically precinct 550485 (which is located directly along the Robinson to 23rd street route) had the highest number of MAPS 3 yes votes for one precinct. Something that must be considered if we are wanting to continue with future MAPS improvements, will be to keep voters happy. Again, I believe this is something to think about.

The problem with Hudson/Robinson isn't so much about those streets themselves, although I do dislike both (while still agreeing that Robinson is very strategic)..the problem is that in my mind, Broadway needs the streetcar. Automobile Alley is our most impressive urban corridor and I just think there's something romantic about the idea of streetcars gliding up and down that corridor. And I do think it is very important to make sure the streetcar goes through sexy urban areas. Not only does it make the TOD better, but it increases the perception of downtown. Hudson will still see improvements as a part of P180, being 1 block from the Robinson line, and other initiatives--but the streetcar riders get to experience that romantic idea of gliding up Broadway. I think that's important. I'm not attacking Hudson, because it does have the bus hub, cultural amenities, and Devon--but I just don't see it as a "must do."

I don't disagree with you about the attractiveness of Broadway, it is a very impressive downtown corridor for Okc, as I drive it everyday.

The idea of using Hudson allows us to move a few blocks to the west and therefore reaching more into Midtown. Also Hudson touches; Myriad gardens, the Devon rotunda, west Main street city offices, municipal buildings, museum of art and cafe, downtown library, metro transit hub, etc.

If only we could have both a Broadway / Robinson and a Walker / Hudson, not sure that is possible at this time?

Supposedly, the streetcar cannot go north on Broadway between Sheridan and 4th (tight corner in front of Myriad and complex intersection at Dean A McGee).

It is going to be double tracked. You can put that issue to rest.

Is this true?

Supposedly, the streetcar cannot go north on Broadway between Sheridan and 4th (tight corner in front of Myriad and complex intersection at Dean A McGee).

Kerry, I just have to ask, where are you getting your info that you're stating in this thread? First you said it will all be double tracked (which you then back-tracked away from), and now you're saying Broadway and Sheridan aren't workable.

Is this true?

No. No route has been determined yet.

While it hasn't been formally voted on yet, I would say that Hudson is completely out of the picture now and that double tracking on major streets is unlikely.

Hudson is considered by most to be too big of a "loop" and is not in the AA route that has moved on to our committee. Double tracking may occur on limited segments due to street constraints.

More to come soon.

Kerry, I just have to ask, where are you getting your info that you're stating in this thread? First you said it will all be double tracked (which you then back-tracked away from), and now you're saying Broadway and Sheridan aren't workable.

Urban Pioneer said a while back that the streetcar can't make the turn from Sheridan to Broadway and they want to avoid the intersection at EKG/Broadway/DAM going north - hence no north bound track on Broadway. As for double track. The only way a street is going to see one set of tracks is if a coupling system is used to create a transit mall. Coupling is still double track, it is just that the other track is over one block. North and south bound service will not take place on the same physical set of rails. At best (or worst depending on you point of view) north on Robinson and south on Broadway would be the coupling configuration. Now, as far as true single track with sidings for passing, it isn't going to happen. I have looked at darn near every streetcar system built in the last 25 years and the only time single track has been built is a small 1/2 mile section in Portland (that was done because of the bridge structure of I-5 that it has to pass under as well road constraints in the area) and the Tampa TECO system. I am convinced that whatever consulting firm is hired by the MAPS III Committee they will not be recommending a single track configuration. Correct me if I am wrong but the AA group is required for federal funding but the streetcar is going to built under the criteria established by the MAPS III Committee.

Kerry...

I completely agree. No modern system is a single track system.
This system will be double track.
I wonder if maybe some of us are talking around each other while saying the same thing?
A double track system can and often does have the opposite tracks on different streets.
In fact, this is a great way to a design a system.

However, single track spurs are good ideas.
Not enough money now, and we still need to sell the public
on the idea. Selling the idea will be easy if we design a good foundation downtown.
Especially, if the transit center is multi modal and usable.
Buses, buses, buses....we need buses!

Urban Pioneer said a while back that the streetcar can't make the turn from Sheridan to Broadway and they want to avoid the intersection at EKG/Broadway/DAM going north - hence no north bound track on Broadway. As for double track. The only way a street is going to see one set of tracks is if a coupling system is used to create a transit mall. Coupling is still double track, it is just that the other track is over one block. North and south bound service will not take place on the same physical set of rails. At best (or worst depending on you point of view) north on Robinson and south on Broadway would be the coupling configuration. Now, as far as true single track with sidings for passing, it isn't going to happen. I have looked at darn near every streetcar system built in the last 25 years and the only time single track has been built is a small 1/2 mile section in Portland (that was done because of the bridge structure of I-5 that it has to pass under as well road constraints in the area) and the Tampa TECO system. I am convinced that whatever consulting firm is hired by the MAPS III Committee they will not be recommending a single track configuration. Correct me if I am wrong but the AA group is required for federal funding but the streetcar is going to built under the criteria established by the MAPS III Committee.

The last part of your post is correct about AA existing for federal funding, whereas the subcommittee actually controlling the destiny of the project--hence why they are trying so hard to work together and vet each other rather than do separate projects.

The thing about Broadway is that the track would be going south on Broadway...not going north. That would be done so that it's on the inside of the blocks, so people don't have to cross either Rob or Broad to go the other way. That makes them actually less than one block apart, truly, rather than slightly more than one block apart.

As for the double tracking, Jeff made the comment earlier, and I hope he will address this because I hate to quote someone on something vague, but he did suggest that we may forgo rapid service beyond downtown for the purposes of pleasing the council if they demand to see areas outside downtown served. He suggested a single track would be used, I believe last week, and I don't know if the idea has been crossed off yet, but that by far offers the best hope IMO for including other areas in the 6 miles of track. If it must be double tracked everywhere, unless an amazing amount of federal funding becomes available magically, it simply can not be done IMHO.

Kerry, this is the bottom line I'm getting at: There's no way, no way at all, to use 3 miles of track and adequately cover downtown AND Plaza or Uptown at the same time. It is simply not physically possible. There is no way you can include Plaza or Uptown, or anything else, without it being a single track that leaves downtown. That is the only way you include one of those areas, period. So not only do I think you're wrong in saying that single track is not an option (especially because I don't think you're basing it on anything), but I hope you are, because there's no way to make it happen otherwise, and that's the reality of the situation. I get it that all of these complete, and successful, systems are double tracked. I have only ridden a modern streetcar a few times in Toronto, but I assure you I "get" how you build fixed guideway systems..I was a daily rider of the 2nd busiest LRT system in Calgary. I understand the importance of having the line double tracked. A lot of those systems however did go back and double track after the starter system may have only had a single track, and that's what we're going to have to do. Double-tracking would be nice, it would ensure that we could run streetcars to the Plaza District or Uptown every 5 minutes if we wanted. But we will have to settle for 15 minute frequencies because there are political concerns at play. We want double-track, we also would like another $130M, and a toilet made of solid gold. But there are political concerns and councilors demanding that the system not just serve downtown. That's the reality of the situation.

Do we really want to wage a streetcar fight that could lead to funding for the entire project getting stripped altogether? We need a system that at least makes an ardent supporter out of Bowman and Salyer and the other core councilors who can be counted on to vote against White, Walters, and probably Kelly.

P.S. McAnelly actually talked at length during one of the Let's Talk Transit meetings about the ideal length of a single track. A Plaza or Uptown single track line would be further than the ideal length of a single track line, but there is virtually no difference in terms of service quality and feasibility for a line that is only a half mile. So instead of just letting Bricktown have the hub and no real streetcar presence on the east side of the tracks, what may be a simple and viable solution is to do a single track circulator that makes a loop through Bricktown and then goes up through Deep Deuce and meets back up with the N/S transit mall.

Im sorry. Could someone teach me what AA means?
I don't think I can follow anymore, if I don't know.

Peace....

Automobile Alley....a downtown district just north of the CBD......Broadway up to about 10th or 13th street I believe.

Oh yes, Automobile Alley.

Thanks for the help.

AA in this thread is referring to Alternatives Analysis, one of the committees overseeing the streetcar project.

So instead of just letting Bricktown have the hub and no real streetcar presence on the east side of the tracks, what may be a simple and viable solution is to do a single track circulator that makes a loop through Bricktown and then goes up through Deep Deuce and meets back up with the N/S transit mall.

I really like this- Don't get me wrong, love the idea of including 23rd and N Robinson in the streetcar (drove through that area today to check it out) - but we really need to reward/incentivize our urban districts that have already been building up for a decade, because they already have the ridership potential. There are almost 500 units within 2 blocks of Walnut, now 230 more with LEVEL. Plus additional TOD potential on the many large lots that are still vacant and underutilized.

And I know this isn't a tourist ride, but that doesn't mean we should avoid Bricktown which would be a key destination and origin point in the system. Bricktown is a gateway drug to downtown- there are locals who go downtown every weekend who have never been west of the train tracks except to the front door of the Ford Center. Putting one stop on the other side of THE WALL is almost as bad as a trolley. Tourists and Bricktown visitors won't see it through the Santa Fe wall and might not know it's even an option. Even worse, riders won't see Bricktown from the other side of the wall. Bricktown isn't just for tourists, either, it is a MAJOR part of an enjoyable downtown residential life, even for people who hate clubs. The movie theater, for example. Besides all that, I worked with tourists downtown for 3 years and I will guarantee you that the biggest chunk of ridership on the Oklahoma Spirit Trolley is from the Ballpark/Canal stop to the Memorial and back.

Ignoring Bricktown and Deep Deuce (which a lot of people seem to suggest) would be a really bad and unfair idea when it really doesn't take much track to include them.

Spartan,

OK. Now this make sense. I was more confused than ever until you posted.

If you have time, please explain the AA. Does it have anything to do with ACOG?

Peace........

Meaculpa, AA and COTPA are virtually one and the same. Whereas the subcommittee is essentially a group of citizens appointed by the mayor, and it's mostly people who first got involved with the streetcar project pre-MAPS with Jeff Bezdek's MTP group. It's just a bunch of downtowners who are passionate about streetcar and these guys have become so well-versed on modern streetcar (attending conferences, visiting cities like Portland/Seattle/et al, raising awareness, doing little things like measuring street widths here, etc) in the last 2 years that it's very impressive.

ACOG is the entity responsible for the hub study. So I guess in a way, although unofficially to my understanding, they are the 3rd or maybe 4th check and balance in the streetcar project. The hub study is just evaluating the best way to tie in streetcar with other transit modes and looking for the best site to utilize a facility that helps accommodate that.

Shane--in all honesty I don't think Bricktown would be a vital streetcar stop. I think it's questionable if the people that go there would be willing to spread out elsewhere in downtown. I think a streetcar route such as that would likely mean a lot more for Deep Deuce. One thing in Bricktown's favor though is that Sheridan does seem very conducive to a track and the Walnut Street bridge can handle track as well. Bricktown has problems that other districts don't. It lacks the mixed uses that Deep Deuce and the Arts District have. Mixed-use is what will be absolutely key to streetcar success. Being overwhelmingly restaurant and tourist oriented means that Bricktown needs to compensate with something new which it has not come out with since the ACM came to town. There's like a grand total of 50 residential units in the entire district and a fledgling retail presence despite how we've all heard it's coming soon, or that so and so is going to revolutionize that, and so on. I'm not saying it's a lost cause but Bricktown has effectively excluded itself from the downtown development buzz (which has become living-centric) by not developing mixed uses. The Gazette-reading crowd oohs and ahs over every new restaurant that opens downtown except Bricktown. The reason: nothing new ever comes to Bricktown anymore.

Bricktown has problems that other districts don't. It lacks the mixed uses that Deep Deuce and the Arts District have. Mixed-use is what will be absolutely key to streetcar success. Being overwhelmingly restaurant and tourist oriented means that Bricktown needs to compensate with something new which it has not come out with since the ACM came to town. There's like a grand total of 50 residential units in the entire district and a fledgling retail presence despite how we've all heard it's coming soon, or that so and so is going to revolutionize that, and so on. I'm not saying it's a lost cause but Bricktown has effectively excluded itself from the downtown development buzz (which has become living-centric) by not developing mixed uses.

The only use Bricktown is leaving out is residential, and I think it might almost make up for that in booked hotel rooms full of people who will want to see the north and west DT attractions like the Memorial and OKCMOA. While I agree suburbanites going to Bricktown may not exactly branch to the rest of downtown regularly, I think the rest of downtown does demand transit to Bricktown, because Bricktown will always be a really great amenity for DT residents (especially Harkins, huge restaurant variety, and special events). You really can't get any closer to a 24-hour neighborhood in all of OKC than Bricktown- Offices, tourists, and family entertainment by day, and by night bars, clubs, events, and hotel guests.

I think along Sheridan and up Walnut would be a perfectly acceptable way to include Bricktown and Deep Deuce- I wasn't sure about the possibility of tracks on the Walnut bridge. I think my ideal track configuration for the core would be Robinson-10th-Broadway-4th-Walnut-Sheridan-Robinson (about 2.5 miles of one-way track, leaving room for more). Chicago has The Loop. We would have The Boot. The shoe fits.

I think the rest of downtown does demand transit to Bricktown, because Bricktown will always be a really great amenity for DT residents (especially Harkins, huge restaurant variety, and special events).
This.


You really can't get any closer to a 24-hour neighborhood in all of OKC than Bricktown
Except for the day time when Bricktown is absolutely dead.

Except for the day time when Bricktown is absolutely dead.

Depending on time of year and what day of the week and what's going on in downtown at the time. Just remember that if you walk down Sheridan and it's freezing cold or blistering hot and nothing's in town and it's Tuesday and you only see two other pedestrians... there are still hundreds of office workers, employees, and students in Bricktown at any given time. Bricktown is a lot more complex than we give it credit for.

Kerry, this is the bottom line I'm getting at: There's no way, no way at all, to use 3 miles of track and adequately cover downtown AND Plaza or Uptown at the same time. It is simply not physically possible. There is no way you can include Plaza or Uptown, or anything else, without it being a single track that leaves downtown.

I already did it Spartan

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=20121&p=389188#post389188

My system hits within 2 blocks of every major downtown employer, residential neighborhood, and point of interest and directly serves housing for several thousand people. It does it all with double track and totals about 7 miles of physical track. The only thing that is not within 2 blocks is the new federal campus and it is three blocks for 3 different stops. Not only that, but my base system is also expandable in every direction (which I have already done as well). I even have a stop right next to the Level Urban Apartments which will be home to 500 people. Now I know you don't like the stop at Shartel but I am sure you will get over police officers, security guards, lawyers, and judges riding the streetcar to work and lunch.

Oklahoma City voters made their streetcar desires clear

The Oklahoman Editorial
Published: January 13, 2011

Voters were promised a streetcar system when they approved MAPS 3. It's a promise that must be kept on track.

Building it will be expensive — $20 million a mile or more — and it will be confined to downtown/Bricktown. It would primarily be used by tourists and downtown workers and residents.

Yes, the city's bus system that serves many residents who don't live downtown needs improvement. But the streetcar system and the bus system are separate issues. Ward 4 City Councilman Pete White and others want to scrap the fixed-track system for a cheaper alternative and shift spending to the bus system.

Nothing would turn off voters more in future initiatives such as MAPS than to have an unkept promise lingering from the previous vote. Nothing would give opponents of a future vote more ammunition.

We believe MAPS 3's passage was aided by voters excited by the streetcar system even if they weren't enthusiastic about other projects in the $777 million initiative. Since MAPS 3's passage in December 2009, the city has sought citizen input on the streetcar system; the response has been enthusiastic. No such ardor exists for shifting MAPS funds to a system using rubber-tired vehicles.

The streetcar system may never match its predecessor, scrapped in 1947 in favor of buses, but it's the start of an exciting new phase in Oklahoma City's progress.

More importantly, the system would be a promise kept to voters.

I already did it Spartan

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=20121&p=389188#post389188

My system hits within 2 blocks of every major downtown employer, residential neighborhood, and point of interest and directly serves housing for several thousand people. It does it all with double track and totals about 7 miles of physical track. The only thing that is not within 2 blocks is the new federal campus and it is three blocks for 3 different stops. Not only that, but my base system is also expandable in every direction (which I have already done as well). I even have a stop right next to the Level Urban Apartments which will be home to 500 people. Now I know you don't like the stop at Shartel but I am sure you will get over police officers, security guards, lawyers, and judges riding the streetcar to work and lunch.

Kerry, some of the people in this thread have already told you that route is horrible, and I already told you it's flawed because you forgot to include a line past Ken Boyer Bail Bonds at 5th and Shartel, which is an important activity node for the jail area. It's nothing against you. For what it's worth, I think you have an excellent understanding of streetcar systems, I just don't think your downtown bearings are accurate. I just don't know if you've been in the vast abandoned area around the jail, and I don't know if you are picturing Heritage Hills exactly as it is.

And I don't get the impression that you're actively following the real discussion going on right now about the streetcar because I don't see where you've given much notice to some of the ideas that Jeff and others have come up with. And LEVEL won't have 500 residents, just as it's not a project you have to tell us about because we know where it is and what it is..

Kerry, some of the people in this thread have already told you that route is horrible, and I already told you it's flawed because you forgot to include a line past Ken Boyer Bail Bonds at 5th and Shartel, which is an important activity node for the jail area. It's nothing against you. For what it's worth, I think you have an excellent understanding of streetcar systems, I just don't think your downtown bearings are accurate. I just don't know if you've been in the vast abandoned area around the jail, and I don't know if you are picturing Heritage Hills exactly as it is.

And I don't get the impression that you're actively following the real discussion going on right now about the streetcar because I don't see where you've given much notice to some of the ideas that Jeff and others have come up with. And LEVEL won't have 500 residents, just as it's not a project you have to tell us about because we know where it is and what it is..

Spartan - what is wrong with my downtown system? Why are you afraid of a stop in front of the Municipal Court and 911 Emergency Center? Are you afraid a little girl and her mother are going to rob you while they are on their way to the jail to visit dad? Would it make you feel better if they robbed you at Robinson and Park and then walked to the jail to visit dad?

Yes I would prefer that.

I just don't like that part of downtown. Doesn't seem conducive to streetcar success.

Walter Jacques
January 11th, 2011

GAZETTE LETTER TO THE EDITOR

An exchange in the Dec. 21 Oklahoma City Council meeting between Councilman Brian Walters and Mayor Mick Cornett (News, Clifton Adcock, “Bumper cars,” Dec. 29, 2010, Oklahoma Gazette) caught my eye.

Walters complained that public transportation, as opposed to vehicular transportation, is subsidized and would “take away that freedom.” Mayor Cornett correctly pointed out that roads and fuel are also subsidized.

Add to the explicit subsidies for fuel and roads the massive defense spending to ensure our flow of fuel continues unimpeded. Military spending isn’t a fuel subsidy per se, but try getting cheap oil from people who don’t like us without it.

In the FY 2011 Department of Defense Budget Request Overview, just the Overseas Contingency Operations (the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan) portion of the defense budget from FY 2003 to FY 2011 is $1.176 trillion, or about $358 million per day. (The entire defense budget for the same period is about $5.25 trillion, or $1.6 billion/day).

Councilman Walters’ daily commute is not only the most highly subsidized mode of transportation in the history of this planet; it’s also the most wasteful. Choosing to travel one person at a time in a vehicle that is consuming costly foreign oil where public transportation is or should be available will ultimately cost us the freedoms that Councilman Walters and the rest of us hold so dear.

When defense spending to support this addiction to foreign oil has destroyed our economy, life for us is going to change — if we don’t run out of oil first.

Nobody is proposing to take away Councilman Walters’ personal vehicle. But when it makes sense to fund and develop solid public transportation, we should support it and use it to the hilt.

—Walter J. Jacques

Del City


http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-10329-consumption-assumption.html