Rover, You should take another look at Capitol Hill, while I would agree some of the businesses aren't very white bread-friendly, the district is increasingly becoming more diverse in its businesses, and there are a few community groups doing a lot of clean-up there. Sometime this week you should go and try the chicken fried steak at the Grill on the Hill, which is popular with the Gazette.

Just drove through there 2 days ago on my way to a great Mexican food store on 29th as I do occasionally. While I think it is diverse, I just don't see evidence of the area businessmen investing in improving the area as much as I see in the Asian district or Paseo or the Plaza area. The Capital Hill business area has HUGE potential. It has the best view of downtown and now the core to shore park. It has a great legacy. It has a pod of great old buildings that could be a great environment if maintained and improved. And it has an exciting cultural base to create a wonderful special environment. Yet it is poorly maintained and there seems to be no vision or leadership there. In the very least, there doesn't seem to be investment form those with the most to gain who live, work and do business there. If they believed in their own future then maybe the rest of the city would invest in them too. Just my opinion based on observation.

By the way, I don't think "white bread" friendly is an appropriate description and not very veiled. The reason for the comments I made are based on maintenance and improvement issues, not cultural or racial. I have been going there and in the area for decades to eat, visit and do business. One of my favorite Aunt and Uncle even had a store there at one time. But it is run-down now and has stayed that way. A little investment, even if it is elbow grease, goes a long way.

By the way, I don't think "white bread" friendly is an appropriate description and not very veiled. The reason for the comments I made are based on maintenance and improvement issues, not cultural or racial. I have been going there and in the area for decades to eat, visit and do business. One of my favorite Aunt and Uncle even had a store there at one time. But it is run-down now and has stayed that way. A little investment, even if it is elbow grease, goes a long way.

Well, I understand if you'd be uncomfortable agreeing to that phrase, but I have no problem. I think that's definitely what is at play, and I definitely admit I think about it in some degree. I make no bones about being really familiar with Capitol Hill, so I don't feel squirmy characterizing it that way. I definitely prefer ethnic restaurants that meet suburban standards of cleanliness, and always shiny new tables, chairs, etc. Some of the businesses just aren't maintained as pristine, which is more along how you'd prefer to put it.

But people who are more keen on Mexican food than I am might be more willing to experience a real local choice that's more authentic. But it's important for those to coexist with restaurants next door that have the nicer sheen and less authentic food for people looking for that. When it comes to food I'm more keen on like Italian, I have no problem going to a kind of sloppy place in Little Italy or somewhere like that, or with Thai food.

But I am very big on the Grill on the Hill and a couple of other places in there.

Okay....for a starter system (red) and possible future extensions MAPS4? (green). Connects mostly all of downtown: the CBD, Deep Deuce, Bricktown (via either deep deuce or EK Gaylord), Automobile Alley, and touches the Arts District. With a grand total of 4.59 miles of track. (with .44 miles of two-way track (.22 miles each way)). Uses the loop system which I know have changed my position on and think is the way to go. As long as the loop is only separated by a block or two from each direction.
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/1305/okcstreetcar.jpg You may have to click on it to get a better view.

The streetcars on the E/W loop would not use the Northbound tracks except to get to Robert S. Kerr from Park Ave. or to get to Dean A. McGee from Robert. S. Kerr. The N/S streetcars would always stay on the N/S tracks. The only common tracks for both loops (spines) would be Broadway between Park Ave. and 3rd St./Dean A. McGee.

Sample itineraries.

* Deep Deuce resident at Block 42 wanting to go to a Thunder game at the Ford Ce....OKC Arena. Get on the westbound in Deep Deuce to the Robinson Ave stop.(west on 4th, south on Oklahoma, west on Robert S. Kerr, north on Broadway and west on Dean A. McGee to the Robinson Ave stop.). At the Robison Ave. stop and wait for the southbound at Robinson. Take the Robinson southbound to the Cox Center/OKC Arena stop. (South on Robinson Ave. and then east on Reno to the OKC Arena/Cox Center stop).

*Devon employee going to Hideaway Pizza in AA for lunch. Board at the Park/Harvey stop and join the eastbound to the Broadway stop. Board the northbound at Park Ave. and Broadway and take north to AA.

Obviously there are more possibilities, but this seems to cover the most ground with a relatively efficient system.

I don't like the systems shown that go all the way up and connect neighborhoods right away. We need to get a nucleus in downtown working before we start bringing in people from neighborhoods further away. Once we can move people in downtown efficiently, it will be more attractive to connect more neighborhoods (and people) into the system. With the idea of connecting neighborhoods right away, how are they going to get around in downtown if all the money was spent on track to get them downtown, and not being able to move them around downtown?

skywest

I approve your route, by far, over anything else I have seen, but still feel it needs to go into Bricktown.

If you are gonna make it so you have to change trains why not a system like this? The dark blue are only single track but would be expandable to double down the line especially if they get a phase 2 attached to them or a small loop if better. This would cover most of the core area and be easily expandable.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5127/5323037848_4229d72aa0_b.jpg


here is an idea of future expansions including double line down Lincoln. and could even be expanded to the airport if need be ( i would prefer commuter rail at that point though with a stop at the last point of the street car and at the central hub allowing you to get on the street car at two points)

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=200808813826019571121.000498b7d2085c921fdb9&t=h&z=13

I just had another idea... I know most people don't like park and rides but what if the parking is put inside on and off ramps?like the ones on 4th?

Here's an article from Steve today:

Debate continues over Oklahoma City streetcars
Some old nagging questions are popping up again as the city takes its second try at creating a downtown streetcar system.

BY STEVE LACKMEYER

Some old nagging questions are popping up again as the city takes its second try at creating a downtown streetcar system. The city literally was built around a streetcar system from statehood through World War II. But the system was abandoned in the late 1940s, and for some the effort to bring it back started right then and there. Voters approved MAPS 3 funding for a streetcar system after being shown renderings portraying the cars going through Bricktown. Debate continues over Oklahoma City streetcars Research shows that serious planning for a reintroduction of rail-based streetcars took place in the 1980s and continued through the early 1990s. Voters were promised a streetcar system would be one of the city's nine Metropolitan Area Projects — but it came with a big “if” — and that “if” was federal funding.

A couple of years earlier, with veteran Mickey Edwards representing District 5, that funding probably would have been a slam dunk. But a rubber-check controversy ended his tenure, and then Mayor Ron Norick discovered that successor Ernest Istook had a strong dislike for rail-based passenger transit. The city was offered a substitute of rubber tire trolleys. When the city attempted to install tracks in Bricktown anyway (I saw the grooves cut into the bricks at Reno and Mickey Mantle Drive), they were ordered to halt work immediately or risk future funding.

Looking back, installation of such tracks downtown likely would have been premature. Deep Deuce was a blighted no man's land, and not the thriving downtown neighborhood it is today. And the tragic birth of downtown's top destination — the Oklahoma City National Memorial — had not occurred yet.



Read more: http://newsok.com/debate-continues-over-oklahoma-city-streetcars/article/3529119#ixzz1AEL0S2WI

Just to follow Betts lead, here is the article last week that was in the Gazette about Pete White.

Jill Adler and Mark Gibbs spoke following Rick Cain's presentation and rebuffed some of the arguments that he was making.

Yesterday at council, I had a chance to also challenge some of his lines of thinking about what people voted for and why we couldn't do buses if we wanted to.

I was surprised to run into Nick Roberts (Spartan) who was also there to speak on the issue.



Bumper Cars

http://npaper-wehaa.com/oklahoma-gazette/2010/12/29/#?article=1124889

Although he’s for public transit, one City Council member is railing against the method and cost of the fixed downtown streetcar concept.

One of the major projects of the approved MAPS 3 program came under fire by an Oklahoma City council member who said it was at odds with other city initiatives and something city leaders would end up regretting.

Around $130 million from the MAPS 3 fund is dedicated to the modern streetcar project, which will likely be on a fixed rail system downtown. Those involved with the project say it will hopefully eventually connect with a larger public rail system that is currently being studied.

At the Dec. 21 City Council meeting, city leaders were presented with possible routes for the downtown streetcar, as well as an intermodal hub, which is planned to serve several public transportation methods.

Around $10 million of MAPS 3 money is set aside to develop an intermodal hub, and the possible sites for the hub have been whittled down from 10 to three, said Rick Cain, public transportation director.

The MAPS 3 streetcar system is separate from the planned commuter rail service, which would likely extend to several surrounding communities such as Norman, Midwest City, Yukon and Edmond, Cain said.

The possible routes presented at the meeting came from the Alternatives Analysis Steering Committee, a group seeking ways to bring the area rail system to reality. The committee does not have a budget to implement the downtown rail project; official recommendations for the exact route will come from the MAPS 3 Modern Streetcar Subcommittee, which will pass its recommendations on to the MAPS 3 Citizens Advisory Board and eventually on to the City Council.

The MAPS 3 modern streetcar project plays a very important role in eventually implementing the larger rail system, Cain said, because the MAPS 3 funds going toward the streetcar might be considered local matching funds for public transit — a requirement to qualify for federal funding for the area rail system.

The downtown streetcar will not be cheap, however. Some estimates put the cost of laying the track and utility relocation at around $20 million per mile, with the city getting 5 or 6 miles of track out of its MAPS 3 funds.

Councilman Pete White questioned the wisdom of having a fixed-rail streetcar downtown, rather than a rubber-tire type streetcar.

White had voted to include the streetcar as part of the MAPS 3 initiative, but said he is beginning to regret that decision.

“As I see it going forward, and I see what the cost of it is going to be and how few people it’s going to serve and how much better that money could be spent on overall transportation things, I’m much less enchanted with it than I was,” White said.

Though the MAPS 3 subcommittee is working with the planners of Project 180, the $140 million redesign of downtown streetscapes, to coordinate efforts and possibly save money on utility relocation, a “tremendous amount of loss” and wasted money are possible, White said, and initiatives to improve walkability downtown are also at odds with the streetcar.

“I think it’s going to be so expensive.

We’re spending all this money downtown on walkability, and yet we’re concentrating this thing in an area where we want people to walk. I think we can do better,” White said. “It’s at counter purpose with 180. It’s at counter purpose with walkability. It’s at counter purpose that we ought to be doing things sustainable financially.”

Mark Gibbs, a member of the MAPS 3 transit subcommittee, addressed the council and defended the streetcar project, citing the project’s high poll numbers and the need for an expanded public transpor tation system.

“It’s a project I firmly believe in,” Gibbs said. “I see the streetcar and the hub and the commuter rail as very much intertwined. The streetcar will introduce people in Oklahoma City to mass transit.”

People who would otherwise not use public transit would be more likely to ride the streetcar, Gibbs said, and the fixed nature of the streetcar would provide predictability and reliability. Though the streetcar has a high initial cost, it would have an extremely lower operating cost than other forms of public transportation, he said.

“The streetcar is the first component in substantially improving transit in the city and the metro area,” Gibbs said.

Jill Adler, another subcommittee member, also defended the project, saying that it would allow people to get around downtown easier, and, with the creation of the hub, encourage people to use public transportation more often.

“People in Oklahoma used to driving cars are going to have difficulty with this concept of ‘let’s come into the hub and walk everywhere there is to walk downtown,’” Adler said. “I think one of the things the streetcar can do is open the concept of mass transit to people who would never consider using it. I think if you get people from Oklahoma City to ride the streetcar, stop at the hub where buses are going, all of a sudden it opens up the whole concept of ‘I don’t have to use my car.’” White responded that he was not opposed to downtown public transportation, just the method and cost of the streetcar.

“I’m not against transportation downtown; I’m against $20 million a mile for transportation that can’t be changed,” White said. “We have people in this town who can’t get to work because they can’t afford it because we don’t have an extensive enough bus route. And yet we’re willing to sink $20 million a mile to get you from Robinson to Walker.”

Councilman J. Brian Walters also took issue with the idea of the government encouraging the use of public transportation.

“Our cars are an extension of our freedom … It’s not our job to convince people to get out of their cars and take away that freedom,” Walters said.

Mayor Mick Cornett responded. “Yeah, but Brian, government subsidizes the streets and the fuel that goes into your car, so it is subsidizing your transportation,” Cornett said.

Rick Cain's Power Point Presentation at council, courtesy of a link on the Gazette's website-

http://uploads.ftp-wehaa.com/okc/MAPS_HUB_Update_CC.pdf

For the record, this was also in the Gazette about Mark Gibbs. I think this made for a surreal meeting for him and Jill. lol

I know the last two council meetings have been somewhat surreal for us volunteers. Ah, the public process.



Registering a complaint

http://npaper-wehaa.com/oklahoma-gazette/2010/12/29/#?article=1124899

The Oklahoma City Council may not have expected the third degree or Spanish Inquisition when it opened the floor to let citizens speak at its regular Dec. 21 meeting.

But then again, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

After a presentation over the proposed routes and hub location for Oklahoma City’s planned streetcar system, several City Council members had questions and comments on the issue. One of those who addressed the City Council on the matter was Mark Gibbs, a board member on the MAPS 3 Modern Streetcar Subcommittee and secretary of the board for Urban Neighbors, the downtown neighborhood association.

Gibbs, who has addressed the council in the past because of his role on the MAPS 3 subcommittee, speaks with a British accent.

The accent was too much to bear for one member of the audience, Oklahoma City resident and former candidate for county commissioner Fannie Bates, who decided to first address the obvious British invasion when the time came to allow citizens to address the council.

“Before I say what I got up here to say, I’d like to say that I’m really tired of coming to these meetings and seeing somebody with an English accent or an Australian accent that knows nothing about our culture getting up here and telling us what they think we ought to do,” Bates told the council. “They don’t know anything about our history. They just sound silly. I hope you don’t think that because someone has an English accent that they know more than us Okies do.”

Bates went on to say that it was not right to charge non-Greater Oklahoma City Chamber members $75 to attend the annual State of the City event, and that many Chamber businessmen who will attend the event don’t live in Oklahoma City, but during the day run payday loan services, bars, liquor stores and “arcades that teach our kids how to kill cops and steal cars” before going home to Nichols Hills and Edmond at night.

“We’ve got problems in Oklahoma City,” Bates said. “Real problems that these people with an English accent don’t know anything about.”

Perhaps Bates is right. The problems of British railways have been well documented in Monty Python’s “Dead Parrot Sketch,” with people headed toward pet shops in Bolton, and then inexplicably winding up in Ipswitch.

And people wonder why I think OK is still kind of backwards - thank you, Fannie Bates, for giving me some supporting evidence. :omg: :Smiley122

And people wonder why I think OK is still kind of backwards - thank you, Fannie Bates, for giving me some supporting evidence. :omg: :Smiley122

But there are people like Fanny Bates all over the country, not just in Oklahoma. If you don't understand that, you haven't gotten out much. I used to go to City Council meetings in Denver from time to time and there was plenty of hilarity there as well. Oklahoma does not have a monopoly on eccentricity.

And people wonder why I think OK is still kind of backwards - thank you, Fannie Bates, for giving me some supporting evidence. :omg: :Smiley122

So one single person, that was at a City Council Meeting mind you, gives you enough evidence to be able to paint a wide generalization over an entire populace; one person that most people in OKC could never relate to. There's weird people in every city, get over it.

Apparently, there are lots of things to dislike in OKC. maybe those who have many such dislikes ought to form a club and get together for a fret and froth party one Wednesday eve a month, maybe two even.

“Before I say what I got up here to say, I’d like to say that I’m really tired of coming to these meetings and seeing somebody with an English accent or an Australian accent that knows nothing about our culture getting up here and telling us what they think we ought to do,” Bates told the council. “They don’t know anything about our history. They just sound silly. I hope you don’t think that because someone has an English accent that they know more than us Okies do.”

So who is Fannie Bates? She is a left wing nut job (not your typical Oklahoman)

http://fanniebates.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/fannie-bates-files-for-oklahoma-county-commissioner/


Fannie Bates, a local teacher and activist, has entered the race to become the County Commissioner for Oklahoma County District I.

Bates received her B.S. from OU in 1971 and her M.P.H. from OUHSC in 2001.

She was one of the complainants who successfully attacked TABOR in the Oklahoma Supreme Court.

Bates was one of eleven citizens who successfully attacked the English Only Initiative Petition in 2001.

...

6. Supporting mass transit within Oklahoma County – including utilization of existing tracks





Wow -talk about hypocrisy

So who is Fannie Bates? She is a left wing nut job (not your typical Oklahoman)

Talk about stereotyping.

It actually sounds more like the conservative right wingers who think everyone not like them should be banned from the country. No more immigrants. No more people who are different. Sheesh.

Talk about stereotyping.

It actually sounds more like the conservative right wingers who think everyone not like them should be banned from the country. No more immigrants. No more people who are different. Sheesh.

You didn't read the link I attached did you. The irony is Travellers is a left-winger that is referencing a fellow left-winger as proof Oklahoma is full of crazy right-wingers.

Maybe we should avoid characterizing people as one wing or the other. There are nuts on both sides of the spectrum, and reasonable conservatives and liberals. Reasonable people of both schools of thought care about what's best for the city and country, even if their methods aren't always the same.

One of the areas where I have refined my thought process is on the downtown loop/circulator. While I can live with the coupling idea (although I really don't like it either) I am not in favor of a loop that circulates around downtown. The track need to reach out into the residential areas instead of wasting track making circles downtown.

There are significant distances involved in getting places downtown. For those who haven't done it, I would suggest walking from Deep Deuce to the Art Museum, from the Iguana Grill to the Ford Center or from City Hall to Midtown. I am accustomed to walking and I've been struck by how long a casual stroll from place to place actually takes. I think one can argue that both circling downtown, which is the place people from north, south, east and west congregate, is a reasonable idea, as well as attempting to serve residential areas. While reaching residential areas is desirable, it may be difficult to choose one over all others, and there's no way to reach more than one direction. In the ideal world, we'd have enough money to circle downtown as well as go north, south, east and west. But there will probably need to be a long-range plan and the initial route needs to be devised so that it can logically be extended.

Or, and perhaps simultaneously, we need to work on better bus service to connect with the intial streetcar route.

Betts here is why I don't like a circulator. If there is a hub (where ever it might be) there will be street cars headed east, west, north, and south from it. If you are going from one part of downtown to another all you need to do is change trains at the hub. Here is the route map of the Oslo system. Their downtown is covered with tracks but no single train goes on all of them.

http://trafikanten.no/Global/linjekart/2010/oslo/Trikk2010-12Web.pdf

Kerry, that looks like the London tube map. How many miles does that system cover? It looks like you've got multiple circulators involving the purple, orange, green and red lines, although it's difficult to know the distances involved so I'm just guessing. And have you ever been on that system to see how intuitive it is for the non-resident? Also, do you know which lines were first? Any idea if the creators and residents love it or if there are things they would change?

A circulator can stop at the hub too, and it can be part of a larger system that extends out further if it is well-planned.

How far will people walk in order to catch a ride?

So one single person, that was at a City Council Meeting mind you, gives you enough evidence to be able to paint a wide generalization over an entire populace; one person that most people in OKC could never relate to. There's weird people in every city, get over it.

Nope, I meet and have seen lots of Fannie Bates-type people here. I work with quite a few I (and others) would characterize as rednecks, I hear from a lot of other people about creationism, sharia, "keep the tax cuts, they do no harm and are good for the economy", etc. All the (IMO) stupid stuff that I'm just amazed that people still believe and bring into political discourse and decision-making and voting. I get out plenty, I've lived plenty, and yes, crazy/stupid people are everywhere, but I just seem to run across a lot more here and they seem to be taken more seriously here. That's what's discouraging to me.

Kerry - please explain to me why I'm a left-winger? What's the criteria for being one? I have never identified myself as such and don't really want to be associated with Fannie Bates in any way.

This part of the discussion should really be moved, but I'll let the mods deal with that if they care to.

One of the areas where I have refined my thought process is on the downtown loop/circulator. While I can live with the coupling idea (although I really don't like it either) I am not in favor of a loop that circulates around downtown. The track need to reach out into the residential areas instead of wasting track making circles downtown.

Why can't there be both a loop around downtown *and* spurs going out further? Or maybe, as betts says, bus connections. But we better have a really good fare-collection system that makes transfers transparent and as easy as sliding a card through a reader. We should have that regardless - make the streetcar fare-collection (assuming there is one) seamlessly interact with the bus fare-collection system.

Not that I'm a fan of a circulator or couplets necessarily... but this is right at 6 miles... makes use of the the new boulevard... and has two way traffic in the Santa Fe (mostly likely spot for the hub) area... and you get Bricktown along Oklahoma Ave... I think it's pretty much genius.. lol.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/Maps/A.png

Why can't there be both a loop around downtown *and* spurs going out further? - make the streetcar fare-collection (assuming there is one) seamlessly interact with the bus fare-collection system.

I have to agree with both of these. When the day comes that we have more than one type of mass transit in Oklahoma City, we need a mass transit card that works for all modalities, IMO.

We will need day and monthly passes, to make transit simply.

It also interfaces with both the Greyhound Station and the current bus transfer station.... and most importantly... it's simple.

I've ridden the Oslo system that Kerry is researching, it's quite good but obviously way more extensive than 6 miles. Its layout is like a large light rail network. Oslo is also served by a subway loop around the city (T-bane) that interfaces with buses and streetcars at multiple points.

Betts here is why I don't like a circulator. If there is a hub (where ever it might be) there will be street cars headed east, west, north, and south from it. If you are going from one part of downtown to another all you need to do is change trains at the hub. Here is the route map of the Oslo system. Their downtown is covered with tracks but no single train goes on all of them.

http://trafikanten.no/Global/linjekart/2010/oslo/Trikk2010-12Web.pdf

This is pretty cool and "meaningful." The streetcar system has always been in my mind, something that is more than a "tourist ride." Although, they will greatly help support the system.

Even more so than tourists... did you know that all the hotels downtown run 85%+ occupancy Monday through Thursday... almost every week. the great majority of these are business travelers that come downtown 2 or more times per month... I can see these individuals being a a major part of the initial ridership.

One of the areas where I have refined my thought process is on the downtown loop/circulator. While I can live with the coupling idea (although I really don't like it either) I am not in favor of a loop that circulates around downtown. The track need to reach out into the residential areas instead of wasting track making circles downtown.

The "take away" from the council meeting on Tuesday is that is what they think too. They want to see points connected as far out as we can go.

While I cannot speak to the "sentiment" of the committee as a whole yet, it is my intention to look at areas further out of downtown. That is why I was asking for opinions. From what I have heard on here and on the street, Paseo, Plaza, Asian District, JFK/Health Sciences, State Capitol, (towards Stockyards) and Capitol Hill are all "meaningful" destinations that have enough of a "heart" that they warrant evaluation for (Phase 1) track.

It is really easy to draw lines on the map and wish.... but it gets down to the nitty gritty when you start thinking about funds and how to "stretch it."

Since the dialogue is so great on here and people are so supportive, I'll give you an example of some of the thinking that a few of us are testing by walking the streets and punching numbers on calculators.

Transit mall as conceived and generally portrayed to 13th street. Single track in protected lane on Robinson, makes left on 28th or 30th to Paseo. Every third streetcar goes to the end of the line to provide service on 30 minute intervals. Paseo doesn't need 8 or 10 minute rapid service (imo).

Just trying to do some "out of the box" thinking to stretch the MAPS dollar and see how many places we can get to and how many "open ends" we can leave for expansion. If Paseo were chosen, if it was successful, head toward Western Avenue and double track the feeder line and do the same thing over again.

Keep in mind---- hypothetical example. you have to look at turning radius, lane widths, areas for protected lanes, overall length, average mph, stops, and ultimate frequency. Hard to do without actually going out there without the calculator and a measuring wheel- which we are doing.

Even more so than tourists... did you know that all the hotels downtown run 85%+ occupancy Monday through Thursday... almost every week. the great majority of these are business travelers that come downtown 2 or more times per month... I can see these individuals being a a major part of the initial ridership.

I agree. And the ones who find out about McNellies, make it to McNellies. lol Since they don't have a car, districts with destination lines will certainly benefit (such as the Paseo example above).

It also interfaces with both the Greyhound Station and the current bus transfer station.... and most importantly... it's simple.

Where are the people that are going to ride it? Hotel guest and office workers on their lunch hour? Anyone going to ride this after 7PM?

Transit mall as conceived and generally portrayed to 13th street. Single track in protected lane on Robinson, makes left on 28th or 30th to Paseo. Every third streetcar goes to the end of the line to provide service on 30 minute intervals. Paseo doesn't need 8 or 10 minute rapid service (imo).


Thumbs up.

During the weekdays (M-Th) well have a good portion of hotel guest riding after 7pm... but again... this was just an idea... I much prefer stretching it as far out as possible.

How far will people walk in order to catch a ride?

The "Let's talk Transit Surveys" suggested 57% say the will go 2-3 blocks. 47% say 4 blocks or more. 7% only one block.

Kerry, that looks like the London tube map. How many miles does that system cover? It looks like you've got multiple circulators involving the purple, orange, green and red lines, although it's difficult to know the distances involved so I'm just guessing. And have you ever been on that system to see how intuitive it is for the non-resident? Also, do you know which lines were first? Any idea if the creators and residents love it or if there are things they would change?

A circulator can stop at the hub too, and it can be part of a larger system that extends out further if it is well-planned.

I am still doing some research on it (everything is written in Norwegian). The Green #11 line is about 6 miles total length. The map is not scaled properly either. From the Frongner plass stop on the #12 line to the Jernbanetoget stop (served by all lines) is 1.6 miles as the crow flies. These tracks don't run near as straight as indicated either; they look like someone dropped spaghetti on the city and there are clearly parts downtown that are no longer used and some other parts still under construction.

Another thing of interest is that only a very small number of stops (even out in the burbs) have parking for cars and what parking is available is only for a few cars. You have to live in high density housing near the station, take a bus, or get dropped off. No one drives their car to the train. It also passes directly though some very nice neighborhoods where you can literally walk out your front door and hop on.

Here we go....

http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-news-street-car-debate-sparks-argument-story,0,2940398.story


If you haven't had a chance to see it, take a look at the city council meeting debate.

Ok, here is my concept. It has two lines.

Line 1:
Mesta Park to Santa Fe station.
Total length - 2.29 miles
Future extension to NW23 where it can go to Classen/UCO or continue to neighborhoods north of 23rd. On the south end it can go to Core to Shore/Capitol Hill

Line 2:
Deep Duce to St. Anthony Hospital
Total length - 1.14 miles
Future extension to Classen and neighborhoods west of Classen. On the Deep Duce side if can go to OU Medical/State Capitol

Total system length - 6.86 miles doubled tracked for travel in both direction. I was able to keep the total track to just under 7 miles becasue 1.58 miles of track through downtown is shared by both lines.
Points served within 1 block:
Deep Duce
Cox Center
Canal
ATT Ball Park
Bricktown
Harkin Theater
Centenial Plaza
Devon Tower (old one)
Devon tower (new one)
Cutter Tower
First National
City Place
First Oklahoma Tower
Sandridge
Bank of Oklahoma
Leadership Sq
OKC National Memorial
Automobile Alley
Midtown Plaza
St. Anthonys
Mesta Park
Heritage Hills
and 6 major downtown Hotels (Aloft, Hampton Inn, Courtyard, Renassiance, Shearton, and Colcord) .
The biggest problem with connecting downtown and residentail is a bunch of empty land that has to traveresed.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/GOCARTPhase1.jpg

Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer
“Before I say what I got up here to say, I’d like to say that I’m really tired of coming to these meetings and seeing somebody with an English accent or an Australian accent that knows nothing about our culture getting up here and telling us what they think we ought to do,” Bates told the council. “They don’t know anything about our history. They just sound silly. I hope you don’t think that because someone has an English accent that they know more than us Okies do.”
So who is Fannie Bates? She is a left wing nut job (not your typical Oklahoman)

http://fanniebates.wordpress.com/200...-commissioner/

Fannie Bates, a local teacher and activist, has entered the race to become the County Commissioner for Oklahoma County District I.

Bates received her B.S. from OU in 1971 and her M.P.H. from OUHSC in 2001.

She was one of the complainants who successfully attacked TABOR in the Oklahoma Supreme Court.

Bates was one of eleven citizens who successfully attacked the English Only Initiative Petition in 2001.

6. Supporting mass transit within Oklahoma County – including utilization of existing tracks

Wow -talk about hypocrisy
I've not commented that much in this interesting and useful thread, but I'll add a few comments now.


Excellent Thread Award. If nothing else, this thread has certainly been interesting and informative. Some great ideas, points and counterpoints have been rationally expressed all around, and that's all good.


Twilight Zone Award. I never heard of Fannie Bates before this discussion, and I was about to ask, "Who is she," but then it was answered as I read on. Her criticism about people with non-Okie accents sounds anything but liberal ... she sounds more like a closet cousin of Sally Kern, I'm thinking, but in a weird, Twilight Zone, sort of way.


When We Say Trust Me, Don't Do It Award. Though I consider Pete a friend, he's got to be the recipient of this award. Recall the debate and discussion during the MAPS 3 campaign about the "trust me" factor" in having the MAPS 3 projects only being addressed by Council Resolution and not on the ballot? Remember people wondering if the Council could be trusted to carry through with what was contained in the resolution since they would not be legally required to do so? One of the best members of the City Council has just provided proof that good reason may exist to doubt that the Council can be trusted. Pete's comments at the December council meeting are perhaps the worst group of comments that a city council member has made in recent years (I'm excluding Walters) -- and this is particularly egregious since the comments which he made were not solicited nor were they germane to what was actually before the city council on that day. Pete was just popping off for no apparent reason. Not only that, they were nonsensical. Everyone, EVERYONE, knows that public transit MUST BE SUBSIDIZED in one way or another. Now, to be sure, we could have tolls placed on just about every city street for a pay-as-you-go system, and wouldn't that be fun. Even Pete said that he understood that public transit required public subsidy before the council session ended and that he always voted for it. Go figure. I'm hoping that he will have an epiphany and will beg for forgiveness.


Citizenship Awards. These have got to go to Jill Adler (Betts), Jeff Bezdek (Urban Planner), Nick Roberts (Spartan) and the guy with English accent, Mark Gibbs. Hats off to you all. And I like your accent, Mark.
Pete, if you are reading this, sorry to be critical of a friend, but you were way out of line and you had no legitimate reason for saying what you did, since you supported MAPS 3 and are more than well aware of the criticism advanced about the "trust me" approach during the MAPS 3 campaign. Are you wanting us to understand, after that vote, that city council should NOT BE TRUSTED to honor its resolution, made as part of that campaign, or what? Please say that you are sorry.

You didn't read the link I attached did you. The irony is Travellers is a left-winger that is referencing a fellow left-winger as proof Oklahoma is full of crazy right-wingers.

If she were an actual left winger, she probably would have my enthusiastic support. Unfortunately, she's just a nutjob -- who obviously holds some right-winger-nativist views. Sometimes it's frankly hard to tell the diff: nutjobs are nutjobs.

If she were an actual left winger, she probably would have my enthusiastic support. Unfortunately, she's just a nutjob -- who obviously holds some right-winger-nativist views. Sometimes it's frankly hard to tell the diff: nutjobs are nutjobs.

You didn't follow the link to her website I provided either. Let me just post the whole bio and then we can get back to streetcars. We already talked about Fannie more than we need to.

Actually, never mind. If you can't see the hypocrisy of an activist who files a lawsuit to stop English only and also favors making interpreters available to persons conducting county business, including sign languages and other languages (Spanish, Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean, etc.) commonly spoken in Oklahoma County AND THEN STANDS UP A CITY COUNCIL MEETING AND SAYS WE SHE ABOUT PEOPLE WITH ACCENTS - I can't help you.

I've not commented that much in this interesting and useful thread, but I'll add a few comments now.


Excellent Thread Award. If nothing else, this thread has certainly been interesting and informative. Some great ideas, points and counterpoints have been rationally expressed all around, and that's all good.


Twilight Zone Award. I never heard of Fannie Bates before this discussion, and I was about to ask, "Who is she," but then it was answered as I read on. Her criticism about people with non-Okie accents sounds anything but liberal ... she sounds more like a closet cousin of Sally Kern, I'm thinking, but in a weird, Twilight Zone, sort of way.


When We Say Trust Me, Don't Do It Award. Though I consider Pete a friend, he's got to be the recipient of this award. Recall the debate and discussion during the MAPS 3 campaign about the "trust me" factor" in having the MAPS 3 projects only being addressed by Council Resolution and not on the ballot? Remember people wondering if the Council could be trusted to carry through with what was contained in the resolution since they would not be legally required to do so? One of the best members of the City Council has just provided proof that good reason may exist to doubt that the Council can be trusted. Pete's comments at the December council meeting are perhaps the worst group of comments that a city council member has made in recent years (I'm excluding Walters) -- and this is particularly egregious since the comments which he made were not solicited nor were they germane to what was actually before the city council on that day. Pete was just popping off for no apparent reason. Not only that, they were nonsensical. Everyone, EVERYONE, knows that public transit MUST BE SUBSIDIZED in one way or another. Now, to be sure, we could have tolls placed on just about every city street for a pay-as-you-go system, and wouldn't that be fun. Even Pete said that he understood that public transit required public subsidy before the council session ended and that he always voted for it. Go figure. I'm hoping that he will have an epiphany and will beg for forgiveness.


Citizenship Awards. These have got to go to Jill Adler (Betts), Jeff Bezdek (Urban Planner), Nick Roberts (Spartan) and the guy with English accent, Mark Gibbs. Hats off to you all. And I like your accent, Mark.
Pete, if you are reading this, sorry to be critical of a friend, but you were way out of line and you had no legitimate reason for saying what you did, since you supported MAPS 3 and are more than well aware of the criticism advanced about the "trust me" approach during the MAPS 3 campaign. Are you wanting us to understand, after that vote, that city council should NOT BE TRUSTED to honor its resolution, made as part of that campaign, or what? Please say that you are sorry.

Oh Pete White..

City Council has certainly been interesting these last few weeks. I think it was White who talked about the trust factor, but I would be interested if anyone can dig that up, might be useful. But yes, I would have advocated against MAPS 3 if it included bus money or rubber tire money. Simply put, I would have been against it, and I know I was not "confused" about what MAPS 3 was supposed to pay for.

Pete's position isn't anti-transit, it's just that all he wants to point to are the failures of transit in OKC and then call this a frivolous project. It's not a frivolous project, because even though downtown might not seem like a real area for someone living out at 134th and Henney Road, it is for people closer in. The simple reality is that downtown is going to adding thousands and thousands of residential units every decade in a small area, and eventually these will include whatever a "normal person" is to Pete White, which I'm sure is a very narrow and stereotypical definition. He doesn't realize that downtown is where we have to try and revolutionize OKC with proactive planning. He doesn't get it that downtown is the face of OKC and that ALL of our city services and public assets are downtown, and if that's not worth getting people to, I don't know what is.

I agree with him that something MUST be done about the bus service. But for him to be ranting and raving about $40,000 he "scrounged" up for bus service is a kenard, the city spends millions and millions a year on bus service, so I don't even know why he's bringing up $40,000. He's also playing a no-sum game, insisting that nothing changes before buses. He doesn't get it that this money is for capital expenses, and if he wants to play the "how are we going to fund it" and "financially conservative" card, the "tax and spend thing" to do would be to spend $120 million on bus capital expenses, $10 million for another hub that nobody cares about, and then hit the city with a huge annually recurring bill for operating costs which are twice as expensive as with streetcar. That would be the thing that would make me wonder, "Holy crap, how are we going to pay to operate the system?" Including operating costs with the $120 million is not an option because the tax ends in 7 years, anyway, and what are you going to do, put the rest of it in a bus foundation for people to siphon for their own purposes? That's insanity, what is this, Detroit?

I'm not saying his idea is corrupt, because he brings up important points, but he's just not thinking realistically. He's an old crank, with all due respect to the veteran Councilor, who is just fed up with the poor bus service, and I'm with him. I would encourage him to place an item on the agenda soon mandating more funding for COTPA service, bus stops, and switching all of their bus routes to a grid system so it's user-friendly. I would encourage him to get on this now, but not to derail the streetcar proposal at the same time.

I would encourage him to place an item on the agenda soon mandating more funding for COTPA service, bus stops, and switching all of their bus routes to a grid system so it's user-friendly.

Nick- I have been thinking about the grid bus system and BRT for a couple of months now, and looking at as much material as I can find as it comes up. There are not a lot of examples of grid bus systems, but there was an interesting KU study that looked at doing BRT and grid buses in Wichita. I think this would be an amazing thing to pursue in OKC.

I like it, Kerry.

Pete White is not the enemy

I for one don't want to see Pete demonized. He may well be misguided about what the streetcar does and not understand the many populations it will serve, and he may well be moving into very treacherous territory as Doug has pointed out.

But I do applaud Pete for standing up for the very poorly served bus riders in the city. The bus system here is a disgrace. Period. Many of us desperately want to see it improved and have supported the Streetcar as part of a long term strategy to realistically improve all transit in the city, especially given the cultural and financial realities we have to deal with. But that doesn't take away from the fact that the bus system fundamentally sucks. Kudos to Jeff for pointing out the hard choices to Council if we want to improve bus service with the budget we've got - retreat to the core. And of course good luck in the current climate with finding a new source of money. But still, thanks for standing up for this, Pete.

Pete White is not the enemy

I for one don't want to see Pete demonized. He may well be misguided about what the streetcar does and not understand the many populations it will serve, and he may well be moving into very treacherous territory as Doug has pointed out.

But I do applaud Pete for standing up for the very poorly served bus riders in the city. The bus system here is a disgrace. Period. Many of us desperately want to see it improved and have supported the Streetcar as part of a long term strategy to realistically improve all transit in the city, especially given the cultural and financial realities we have to deal with. But that doesn't take away from the fact that the bus system fundamentally sucks. Kudos to Jeff for pointing out the hard choices to Council if we want to improve bus service with the budget we've got - retreat to the core. And of course good luck in the current climate with finding a new source of money. But still, thanks for standing up for this, Pete.

This.

I like it, Kerry.

I added a Phase 2. This is Line 3. It runs from Deep Duce to the City Government Complex and even with double tracking it only adds 1.1 miles of new rail. It actually uses coupling around City Hall and the Performing Arts Center because of the one way streets. I have reached nearly every downtown attraction, midtown, Deep Duce, Bricktown, Automobile Alley, Mesta Park, 6 hotels, and multiple government buildings and I am just at 8 miles of total track and that is with the entire system double tracked for travel in both directions.

New destinations picked up are as follows:

Norick downtown library
County Court House
Park Harvey
City Hall
Oklahoma City Museum of Art
City offices
Performing Arts Center
County Jail
Legacy Apartments (both of them)

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/GOCARTPhase2.jpg

If I add another 1.2 miles I can get all the way to OU Medical and extend the service of the Red and Black streetcars.

Pete White is not the enemy

I for one don't want to see Pete demonized. He may well be misguided about what the streetcar does and not understand the many populations it will serve, and he may well be moving into very treacherous territory as Doug has pointed out.

But I do applaud Pete for standing up for the very poorly served bus riders in the city. The bus system here is a disgrace. Period. Many of us desperately want to see it improved and have supported the Streetcar as part of a long term strategy to realistically improve all transit in the city, especially given the cultural and financial realities we have to deal with. But that doesn't take away from the fact that the bus system fundamentally sucks. Kudos to Jeff for pointing out the hard choices to Council if we want to improve bus service with the budget we've got - retreat to the core. And of course good luck in the current climate with finding a new source of money. But still, thanks for standing up for this, Pete.

I'm not going to patronize Pete. He is playing a dangerous game to make a philosophical point. The idea of suggesting that our volunteers do not sympathize with the individuals that have to contend with substandard bus
connectivity and unprotected stops. The idea that we "don't get it.". It is insulting. Make the grand stand when it is appropriate. We'll stand behind him. But to pit one type of transit against another?

Then you get into the fact that he had months to decide to support or not support. He had the costs. He had the objectives. He endorses. Then "Zoink!", I've changed my mind after I told the voters that this was a good idea. It totally plays into the "credibility" questions.

I think Pete genuinely cares. But play politics when it is appropriate. Don't insult the volunteers who are trying to implement the voter's will after a good, hearty debate has already been had. We don't have the time.

Maybe I should send Pete an old pair of my flip flops. He can honestly say he voted for it before he voted against it.

Nope, I meet and have seen lots of Fannie Bates-type people here. I work with quite a few I (and others) would characterize as rednecks, I hear from a lot of other people about creationism, sharia, "keep the tax cuts, they do no harm and are good for the economy", etc. All the (IMO) stupid stuff that I'm just amazed that people still believe and bring into political discourse and decision-making and voting. I get out plenty, I've lived plenty, and yes, crazy/stupid people are everywhere, but I just seem to run across a lot more here and they seem to be taken more seriously here. That's what's discouraging to me.


Travellers, the only one who seems to take people like that more seriously here is you. I don't see that sentiment too much from anyone else. There certainly are far right-wingers who post here but don't take that to mean they are in the majority here or will have any undue influence and yes you are straying into topics that should be in the politcal forum.

I got this email this morning. Looks like we'll be able to see the early hub sites...fyi

Central Oklahomans Invited to First Meeting on Intermodal Transportation Hub Study

The Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (ACOG) is hosting a public meeting on the Intermodal Transportation Hub Study for Central Oklahoma, to encourage comments and feedback on the initial findings and evaluation of potential hub sites.

When: January 20, from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m.
Where: Oklahoma City Community Foundation, 1000 N. Broadway

Project consultant, Jacobs, will be available to answer questions and receive comments at the session. There will be a primary presentation at 4:30 p.m., where the Jacobs team will describe the planning and research process.

The major goal of the Hub Study is to recommend the best location and provide a conceptual layout for an intermodal transportation hub that would serve the Oklahoma City metropolitan area.

ACOG serves as the sponsor and coordinating entity for the study. Other funding/study sponsors include the Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority (COTPA), the city of Oklahoma City and the Oklahoma Department of Transportation (ODOT). An Intermodal Hub Study Advisory Committee also includes the cities of Edmond, Midwest City, Norman and Yukon; the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber; railroad representatives; and downtown and transit advocacy organizations.

The meeting location is accessible for people with disabilities. Participants taking public transportation should consider METRO Transit’s Route 2. For more details, call 235-RIDE. Parking is available on the street and in the adjacent lot on the east side of the garage east of OCCF’s building.

In compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act, ACOG will provide for reasonable accommodations for persons with disabilities.

Call 234-2264 for more information.

The "take away" from the council meeting on Tuesday is that is what they think too. They want to see points connected as far out as we can go.

While I cannot speak to the "sentiment" of the committee as a whole yet, it is my intention to look at areas further out of downtown. That is why I was asking for opinions. From what I have heard on here and on the street, Paseo, Plaza, Asian District, JFK/Health Sciences, State Capitol, (towards Stockyards) and Capitol Hill are all "meaningful" destinations that have enough of a "heart" that they warrant evaluation for (Phase 1) track.

It is really easy to draw lines on the map and wish.... but it gets down to the nitty gritty when you start thinking about funds and how to "stretch it."

Since the dialogue is so great on here and people are so supportive, I'll give you an example of some of the thinking that a few of us are testing by walking the streets and punching numbers on calculators.

Transit mall as conceived and generally portrayed to 13th street. Single track in protected lane on Robinson, makes left on 28th or 30th to Paseo. Every third streetcar goes to the end of the line to provide service on 30 minute intervals. Paseo doesn't need 8 or 10 minute rapid service (imo).

Just trying to do some "out of the box" thinking to stretch the MAPS dollar and see how many places we can get to and how many "open ends" we can leave for expansion. If Paseo were chosen, if it was successful, head toward Western Avenue and double track the feeder line and do the same thing over again.

Keep in mind---- hypothetical example.

Finally....I really love the idea of streetcar reaching people in existing neighborhoods and that this is finally starting to be talked about more.

I have been wanting this type of streetcar since I voted for it. Never really wanted to see the streetcar be a tourist ride and only wind around and through the downtown / bricktown area. Personally I feel that downtown Okc & Bricktown are both easily walkable and with Project 180 will be more so. People have stated that they are willing to walk nearly 4 blocks in order to ride.

The North Robinson route to the Paseo makes for a great starter track and reaches many resident people in the given distance. This route has more density than many people think it does. Many small apartments, duplexes and four-plex housing along this route.

If there is only one outer neighborhood area from the list (Paseo, Plaza, Asian, Stockyards, etc.) to try and connect, I would vote for the Paseo.

Also look at widening the "transit mall" area to Broadway and Hudson area as opposed to Broadway and Robinson?

The streetcar could span Broadway and Hudson, but at 13th make the turn North along Robinson and up to 28th street. Again Broadway to Hudson is 4 blocks and this could help connect more people, especially in and around Midtown, the Arts District, and the Metro Bus terminal.

Also look at widening the "transit mall" area to Broadway and Hudson area as opposed to Broadway and Robinson?

The streetcar could span Broadway and Hudson, but at 13th make the turn North along Robinson and up to 28th street. Again Broadway to Hudson is 4 blocks and this could help connect more people, especially in and around Midtown, the Arts District, and the Metro Bus terminal.

This was debated intensively, multiple times, at different levels. We have tentatively, collectively decided that it is too big. One reason for this is the sheer length of OKC blocks. The other has to do with elevations. "If you can't see it, it doesn't exist" analogy.

It sounds good and looks good on paper. But when you walk the full length of the route, you begin to realize that its not practical. Particularly for "first time" users.

We want to make sure that the core of the system is "intuitive enough" that people can "sense" what is going on and how it operates without even looking at a map.

I got this email this morning. Looks like we'll be able to see the early hub sites...fyi

Central Oklahomans Invited to First Meeting on Intermodal Transportation Hub Study

The Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (ACOG) is hosting a public meeting on the Intermodal Transportation Hub Study for Central Oklahoma, to encourage comments and feedback on the initial findings and evaluation of potential hub sites.

When: January 20, from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m.
Where: Oklahoma City Community Foundation, 1000 N. Broadway

Project consultant, Jacobs, will be available to answer questions and receive comments at the session. There will be a primary presentation at 4:30 p.m., where the Jacobs team will describe the planning and research process.

The major goal of the Hub Study is to recommend the best location and provide a conceptual layout for an intermodal transportation hub that would serve the Oklahoma City metropolitan area.

ACOG serves as the sponsor and coordinating entity for the study. Other funding/study sponsors include the Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority (COTPA), the city of Oklahoma City and the Oklahoma Department of Transportation (ODOT). An Intermodal Hub Study Advisory Committee also includes the cities of Edmond, Midwest City, Norman and Yukon; the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber; railroad representatives; and downtown and transit advocacy organizations.

The meeting location is accessible for people with disabilities. Participants taking public transportation should consider METRO Transit’s Route 2. For more details, call 235-RIDE. Parking is available on the street and in the adjacent lot on the east side of the garage east of OCCF’s building.

In compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act, ACOG will provide for reasonable accommodations for persons with disabilities.

Call 234-2264 for more information.


Great opportunity for you guys to challenge the experts.

If there is only one outer neighborhood area from the list (Paseo, Plaza, Asian, Stockyards, etc.) to try and connect, I would vote for the Paseo.

Also look at widening the "transit mall" area to Broadway and Hudson area as opposed to Broadway and Robinson?

Why no Uptown? I think if we're looking for a neighborhood to extend streetcar to, just do Uptown because it has enormous potential itself, it's closer in, and it's a good baseline for extensions to Plaza, Paseo, Asian, etc. Also, keep in mind OKC's block sizes are huge, so I just think we should stick to Rob/Broad.

I wouldn't even split up the track between Broadway and Robinson. The more I study other system around the world the more I am convinced that tracks need to stay togethere where traffic patterns permit it. Look at this example. If you divide north and south bound streetcars between Robinson and Broadway how many blocks are served with two way travel? Answer 1, the block between Robinson and Broadway. If both travel directions are on Robinson how many blocks are served by travel in both directions? Answer 2, Broadway to Robinson to Harvey. Keeping the tracks together puts twice as many people and business within one block of both travel direction. Call me crazy, but that seems better.

The further you get away from the track the more evident this becomes as well. Once you get to two blocks out, using the coupling plan then it makes the return trip a three block walk. Based on the studies, people won't walk three blocks so you don't even capture the two block group at all. With two-way travel on the same street you pick up 2 more blocks that are within 2 blocks of both travel directions. Again, better in my opinion. The moral - just say no to coupling unless one-way streets require it.

I wouldn't even split up the track between Broadway and Robinson. The more I study other system around the world the more I am convinced that tracks need to stay togethere where traffic patterns permit it. Look at this example. If you divide north and south bound streetcars between Robinson and Broadway how many blocks are served with two way travel? Answer 1, the block between Robinson and Broadway. If both travel directions are on Robinson how many blocks are served by travel in both directions? Answer 2, Broadway to Robinson to Harvey. Keeping the tracks together puts twice as many people and business within one block of both travel direction. Call me crazy, but that seems better.

The further you get away from the track the more evident this becomes as well. Once you get to two blocks out, using the coupling plan then it makes the return trip a three block walk. Based on the studies, people won't walk three blocks so you don't even capture the two block group at all. With two-way travel on the same street you pick up 2 more blocks that are within 2 blocks of both travel directions. Again, better in my opinion. The moral - just say no to coupling unless one-way streets require it.

I understand your point of view, but don't agree with it. When I went to Seattle for the rail conference, there were people there from all over the world. Every one of them was say couplets, couplets, couplets...

I don't believe that couplets should be everywhere. There may be "double tracking" that needs to occur on some streets. But Robinson is undeniably a great system "spine" as it goes all the way through from Edgemere to Capitol Hill. Then there are all the people who insist that it go down Automobile Alley. I agree that it needs to go down Broadway. Auto Alley brings a great deal of potential ridership to the system. But keep in mind when you talk about people walking blocks, Broadway is bordered by a freight rail line a block away, and a highway, two blocks away. From an urbanity standpoint, the transit mall is "centered" on a great "axis."

There are three other big fundamental reasons that we are talking about this.

1. We want straight lines without "jogs" for long distances. Easier to interpret on a map or give people directions.

2. It costs us a great deal less on utility relocation as we are "shifting" utilities from one side of the street to the other, rather than trying to bury everything 6' deep.

3. Aesthetically, if we do an overhead wire, a couplet allows for a single overhead wire with guide arms on one side of the street. Guidelines in such a configuration would only be necessary at major turns. A double track configuration also creates a great deal more "visual pollution" as there are wires spanning the entire width of the street to keep the lines secure.

For the people at the conference, the utility savings were the biggest reason, spreading developmental impact was second, creating a situation where people might find a rail line easier by making it possible for the to "run into it" sooner was another, and minimizing visual pollution was something else that became obvious in studying the systems..

Nick- I have been thinking about the grid bus system and BRT for a couple of months now, and looking at as much material as I can find as it comes up. There are not a lot of examples of grid bus systems, but there was an interesting KU study that looked at doing BRT and grid buses in Wichita. I think this would be an amazing thing to pursue in OKC.

http://www.transitchicago.com/travel_information/maps/htsystemmap.aspx is the starting point for Chicago's public transit. Their bus routes are pretty heavily grid-oriented from what I can remember. Hopefully your definition of grid bus system is the same as mine.

The "Let's talk Transit Surveys" suggested 57% say the will go 2-3 blocks. 47% say 4 blocks or more. 7% only one block.

Over 4 blocks is probably stretching it. My experience in Chicago was that 3-4 blocks was about it, otherwise they'd take a cab or drive unless public transit was their only option, then they just walked however far they needed to in order to get to a stop.