I think light rail is dead. It tries to do the impossible and make an automobile based city a rail based city. It doesn't (and can't) work that way. The trend is streetcar as cities re-invent themselves at the core. We are building new cities in the middle of legacy cities.

I agree with OKC@, CR and Streetcar is the best initial approach for OKC. Once the city densifies and we need 'more stops', then we could implement light rail and put in Transit Oriented Developments at the major stops.

I think we are a LONG WAY away from that though (the city just doesn't have the density or enough density clusters YET for it to work), and it makes more sense to do CR for the suburbs to downtown, and streetcar in downtown and perhaps other nodes (like a Norman/OU streetcar, maybe a 63rd Streetcar that could continue down to connect to downtown, maybe a southside streetcar eventually, that could connect Capital Hill, Stockyard's City, Crossroads, and Fairgrounds/Meridian to Union Square/Central Park/Downtown.

And with CR, there won't be many stops - the emphasis with CR is really on 'commute' and less on frequent stops/service. Once you get to a destination, say downtown, then Streetcar or walking could pick up from there since it is a major node of activity/attractions already.

I can definitely see this model successful in OKC - just as long as we don't make the streetcar too initially far reaching that it does not serve the density of 'say' downtown. Remember, Streetcars have the most stops - so we want it to be initially compact with lots of track/routes in downtown instead of using all 6 miles to get ONLY 1 line from Asian district into dowtown. After downtown is built, then it could be expanded with spur routes when more initiative/money comes online.

BUILDER ONLINE

Chicken or Egg
Transit-oriented development often travels on light rail.

By: John Caulfield


Over the past year, developers have applied for permits to build 1,500 apartments and condos within a half-mile of transit stations in Seattle’s Rainier Valley neighborhood. Those stations will serve the 15.6-mile Link light-rail line connecting downtown Seattle with Sea-Tac Airport. The rail line is scheduled to open in July 2009.

This housing represents Rainier Valley’s first nonsubsidized multifamily projects in more than three decades. Nearly half of these housing units will be built by developer Othello Partners, including The Station at Othello Park, an $80 million project with 350 rental units and 20,000 square feet of retail space. “One of the most important factors in our decision to build was the light rail,” says Mike Hlastala, Othello Partners’ COO.

In cities across the U.S., light rail had the biggest increase in riders—8.3 percent—among all modes of public transit in 2008, according to the American Public Transportation Association. Burgeoning municipalities and states see transit-centric development as essential to managing their population growth, which in Seattle’s case is expected to rise by 1.2 million over the next quarter century. Many cities also see a receptive federal government now that President Obama has made infrastructure investment a linchpin in his administration’s long-range economic growth strategy. The U.S. Department of Transportation and HUD recently formed a joint task force to devise ways to put more affordable homes near job centers and transit hubs.

“Transit-oriented development really sets out our future,” Todd Apo, chairman of Honolulu’s City Council, told The Honolulu Advertiser after that city’s mayor in March signed a bill that establishes transit-*oriented development (TOD) zones around its nascent light-rail line.

Since Charlotte, N.C., opened its Lynx system in November 2007, more than 1,000 housing units have been added or approved near its stations, says Dena Belzer, president of Berkeley, Calif.–based Strategic Economics, one of three partners in the Center for Transit-Oriented Development, a national nonprofit focused on promoting TOD research and best practices. And Phoenix-area businessmen who might have squawked about the cost of their market’s $1.4 billion 19-mile light-rail line, which opened in December, now lobby to have future stations built near their stores and offices after the line’s ridership jumped 15 percent in February over January to more than 908,000.

“Transportation facilities can be designed in ways that integrate, support, or trigger economic activity to benefit the community by reorganizing land use, increasing land value and tax revenues by attracting capital and providing jobs, and increasing incomes while also supplying well-located, needed services to the community,” states “Moving Communities Forward,” a report analyzing nearly 30 transportation projects published in January 2008 by The American Institute of Architects and the University of Minnesota’s Center for Transportation Studies.

But light rail doesn’t always catalyze transit-oriented residential development. Developers aren’t always enamored of building near transit systems whose attached strings often include density and affordability mandates. Under pressure from developers, Washington state’s legislature in March tabled two bills that would have established rules for development along transportation corridors.

Sacramento, Calif.’s 22-year-old light-rail system, which currently runs 37.4 miles and handles 14.4 million passengers per year, is recognized as a model for California’s new statewide smart-growth regulations. But only recently have TOD projects sprouted along that line, say local transportation analysts and planners. In 2002, city financing helped transform a brownfield with warehouses and a closed lumber mill into a mixed-use TOD near the rail line’s 65th Street station. A spur that will connect downtown Sacramento to its airport will run through a 240-acre brownfield that could hold “all kinds” of TOD possibilities, says one planner for the Sacramento Area Council of Governments.

Phoenix mayor Phil Gordon wants to create America’s first carbon-neutral metropolis. This spring the city initiated a study with a goal of integrating proposed transit expansions into its general growth plan. That could lead to zoning changes and possibly more TOD activity, says city planner Carol Johnson. But what makes Phoenix unique is how housing densities outside of its central city—three to four units per acre—“mimic the topography, which is flat,” says Johnson. The challenge is to create “focused clusters,” possibly including some near transit stops, which provide urban living experiences and mesh with the suburban landscape. The study, she says, is a step toward finding out if that’s feasible.


http://www.builderonline.com/construction-trends/chicken-or-egg.aspx

http://www.okgazette.com/article/12-01-2010/Schedule_cooperation_between_Project_180_and_the_M APS_3_could_save_taxpayer_money.aspx

For some reason I totally do not buy what the city officials are saying in that article. How could there not be cost savings? They're trying to suggest the opposite, that it would cost more. That sounds like Orwellian double talk.

According to story, most of cost is attributed to relocating underground utilites and not the cost of actual pavement. Furthermore, when putting in track, they don't tear up the whole road again. They only tear up the portion where the track is going.

According to story, most of cost is attributed to relocating underground utilites and not the cost of actual pavement. Furthermore, when putting in track, they don't tear up the whole road again. They only tear up the portion where the track is going.

True, true, Kerry. The concrete that would be cut out of the street itself is a minimal cost. It really is the utility relocation opportunity that is the big concern. Such relocation may require cutting out entire swaths of street surface and deep excavations into the newly compacted road bed on other parts of the street from the track.

But even if cutting an 8' section of concrete out is a minimal concern, it might be argued from an inconvenience and aesthetic integration standpoint.

Obviously, shop owners and tenants will experience some impact with the streets torn up once, but twice would be even more trying.

Regarding aesthetics, much of the 180 design as extends as far as the shade and coloring of concrete. Having the stop platforms integrated into the final sidewalk surface certainly would enable the transit system to further blend with the new pedestrian environment.

We are going to work extremely hard as a committee to determine the best possible route as soon as we have the preliminary hub data. Don't misunderstand that anyone on the committee proposes rushing ahead of the ongoing study of where this important connection to the future regional system should occur. Project 180 cost savings is very important, but the relationship to the future is just as important.

Urban,

Glad to hear.

IMO, that is why as soon as MAPS 3 passed there should have been an immediate moratorium on ALL Project 180 projects that were probable streetcar routes. Most of the money for Project 180 is borrowed money (at least with the Devon TIF portion, it is being paid back twice). Once with the initial loan made by Devon to proceed and then borrowed/paid back again when the TIF portion kicks in eventually (again, borrowed money that is to be paid back eventually with the anticipated increase in property values).

In the minds of the City, it would appear that MAPS 3 operates in a vacuum and no planning/contingency was made for its passage/failure. There definitely should have been a MAPS 3 clause in the Devon agreement that would allow the city to put parts of P180 on hold. But as I understand it, the City is contractually required to finish P180 by the time the Devon tower opens.

Out of curiosity, what does 'utility relocation' mean. Are they moving underground utilities to other areas or just making them deep underground, or both? Are there any specific examples of 'relocated untilities' yet?

Platemaker - you are thinking to small. Dream big! That hub might do for a remote hub but not for downtown. The downtown hub has to be larger than life. Think "Old Penn Station" not "New Penn Station".

The city spent how many millions on the Performing Arts Center that get used a couple of time per week. Spend at least that much on a building that will be used daily.

The problem is, Kerry, that current funding for a hub comes out of the streetcar millions. If you spend that much on the building, there will be no transit to link to it. I think the key is to work with the concept of ultimate expansion of the Santa Fe station. Perhaps utilizing the Cox building in the future would work, combining it with the station as suggested previously.

Under MAPS 3, Oklahoma City Council specificallly directed $120 million for the Modern Streetcar and $10 million to go toward a hub facility or commuter rail infrastructure. The hub funding is separate and distinct from the funding for the streetcar system. Also, it was not intended to pay for the full development and construction of the intermodal hub, which will certainly require significant more funding if the facility is to serve as our future regional rail transit center. We are most likely a number of years away from development of a commuter rail system and construction of an intermodal hub facility. As with the MAPS 3 funding for the Modern Streetcar, we have the opportunity to leverage the $10 million to obtain FTA New Starts matching funds, potentially providing an additional $40 million for hub development. Once ACOG completes the current Intermodal Transit Hub Study and the upcoming Alternatives Analysis for the Fixed Guideway Study rail tranist corridors, we will be very well positioned to seek additional federal funds for development of the hub. Until then, the best thing we can probably do with the $10 million once the hub study is completed and a hub location is determined is to use some or all of the funding to secure the properties that will be needed for eventual development of the hub.

The problem is, Kerry, that current funding for a hub comes out of the streetcar millions. If you spend that much on the building, there will be no transit to link to it. I think the key is to work with the concept of ultimate expansion of the Santa Fe station. Perhaps utilizing the Cox building in the future would work, combining it with the station as suggested previously.

Betts - it has to built in phases but that doen't mean the whole plan can't be conceived at once and built on a time table. Just look at OU memorial stadium. It was built in three or four different expansions with each expansion giving no regard to future expansions. The whole place looks like a mish mash. On the other hand, look at T. Boone Pickens stadium. The whole thing looks uniform and was built in 2 or 3 phases spread over a couple years. We need one plan with multiple phases spread over several years, not multiple plans with one phase each spread over multiple years.

Folks, let's just see what the outcome of the hub study is. Lol. We will know some answers from it soon.

If we have to build on a new site, I do hope the land purchase doesn't require us to expend all $10 million. We will just have to see.

Is the hub study going to be similar to the never ending convention center location studies?

Is the hub study going to be similar to the never ending convention center location studies?

No! Absolutely not. Very few parties (if any) advocating for the hub to be in a certain location. It wouldn't matter if they did anyway as the location should be determined by its technical merits, connections to current and future transit alignments.

Really the only debate to be had on a committee level is regarding how to start, what is a reasonable amount to spend and accomplish immediate but expandable goals, how far in the future to plan for, and whether the "technically preferred" location fits into the "walk ability plans."

Fort Worth's streetcar plan is derailed

By John Henry

jfhenry@star-telegram.com

FORT WORTH -- The city's discussion and study of the viability of a modern streetcar system for the central city is over for now.

The City Council voted 5-3 on Tuesday to pull the plug on a feasibility study of running a streetcar line to the near north side through downtown and the near south side.

Mayor Mike Moncrief joined council members Carter Burdette, Jungus Jordan, Danny Scarth and Zim Zimmerman in voting against continuing to the final phase of the three-part study. Council members Joel Burns, Sal Espino and Frank Moss voted to proceed.

District 8 Councilwoman Kathleen Hicks was in Europe on city business, said Will Trevino, her assistant.

"This has been a real struggle for me," Moncrief said. "The bottom line is, many of us are still wrestling with concerns over funding."

A vote to proceed with the study would have paved the way for the city to accept a $25 million federal grant, which was expected to jump-start the estimated $88 million project.

A consultant, HDR Engineering, reported that streetcars were viable for the center city.

The line, according to city plans, would have consisted of three cars traversing a six-mile round-trip. It would have operated 14 hours a day, 365 days a year and carry an estimated 2,000 people a day.

The total cost of construction would have been offset by the federal grant. The rest would have been covered by the Trinity River Vision and Southside tax increment financing districts, or TIFs.

Officials estimated the system's operating cost at $1.6 million a year, which initially would be funded by the Fort Worth Transportation Authority, or the T.

Later, residents of the neighborhoods where the line runs would vote on whether to take on operational costs.

The assumption that the residents would take on operating costs and the unknown health of the TIFs in the future made forging ahead a risky proposition for taxpayers, Burdette said.

Critics were also skeptical of a study that projected $334 million in new residential and commercial development along the line. Not to mention that the federal government didn't need to be spending the money, either, their thinking went.

Advocates promoted the project as a environmentally friendly transportation option and a big step toward the dream of downtown as a fully functional and livable urban center.

Many were at Tuesday night's council meeting to plead with the council to "get all the facts," as one speaker said, before making a final decision.

"Proven by every economic study, investment in streetcars creates billions in economic development and brings jobs to our community," Burns said. "We are taking these job opportunities away from the Fort Worth community."

However, Moncrief asked: "What if economic development doesn't occur? What if interest rates don't drastically improve? How do we pay for maintenance and upkeep?"

Proceeding to Phase 3 of the study did have the support of the transportation committee of DFW Inc. as well as a majority of the board that replied to a survey, President Andy Taft said.

'Not the end'

About $821,000 was spent on the study, a large portion of which -- roughly $657,000 -- was covered by a federal grant. The city and The T split the difference. The city's money not spent on Phase 3 will be returned to a bond fund dedicated to urban projects.

A yes vote would not have cleared the way for streetcars. Phase 3 was expected to take up to a year to complete and included an environmental assessment.

The council is unanimous in agreeing that a comprehensive mass transit plan to deal with congestion and moving people from the suburbs to the central city is a priority.

Whether the streetcar is a part of that discussion is still a question.

Moncrief and Scarth both said streetcars would and should be discussed again, but with investors and not taxpayers bearing the burden of the cost.

"This is not the end of the conversation about streetcars and the related transportation needs of this city," Burns said.

"If we are to realize our potential as an important, major U.S. city and provide the economic opportunities we owe our citizens we must not fail to plan for our future."


Read more: http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/12/07/2687674/fort-worths-streetcar-plan-is.html#ixzz17d1lPobn

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2073/1683319690_30ce98ae52.jpg?v=0

^^ I would like to see our hub look something like this in Boston. I think that greco-roman should be the theme of most civic buildings...or depending on the location we could go with art deco like this in Tulsa:
http://images.travelpod.com/users/xerius/japanliving.1155786600.img_0106.jpg

Just saying...I think we need something majestic, classic and powerful and I think that something like that as opposed to a more modern structure would be wonderful. Think grand banking hall in FNC as a reception area. Just my thoughts, don't want to get too grand.

However, Moncrief asked: "What if economic development doesn't occur? What if interest rates don't drastically improve? How do we pay for maintenance and upkeep?"

How do they think they pay for maintenance and upkeep of suburban roads? This is what drives me crazy - they think all this urban sprawl is free but for some reason encouraging high density development is cost prohibitive. They have it ass backwards.

Just saying...I think we need something majestic, classic and powerful and I think that something like that as opposed to a more modern structure would be wonderful. Think grand banking hall in FNC as a reception area. Just my thoughts, don't want to get too grand.

Get ready to cry.

This:
http://en.wikivisual.com/images/b/ba/Penn_Station3.jpg http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Penn_Station1.jpg/120px-Penn_Station1.jpg

was replaced by this:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/media/2008/02/penn.jpg http://www.visitingdc.com/images/new-york-penn-station-address-2.jpg

How did that happen? WHERE did that happen? And who's house do we need to go burn down?????:elmer3:

How did that happen? WHERE did that happen? And who's house do we need to go burn down?????:elmer3:

That is the old and new Penn Station in New York City. It might be one of the largest crimes against architecture on record.

Can we have Fort Worth's $25 million federal grant if they're not going to use it?

Can we have Fort Worth's $25 million federal grant if they're not going to use it?

Yes we can. We also get all the TOD they passed up on. I don't think the people in Oklahoma City have any idea how big of a change the street car is going to bring. I keep hearing people say it will take 30 years for core to shore to fully develop. I think it will be built out in less than 10 years. Once that snowball starts rolling it will be huge. I have seen that kind of growth in several cities now. When Tampa completed the TECO Streetcar line several high-rise condos went up within a few years of opening.

Here is just some of the housing that opened after the street car was built.

http://activerain.com/image_store/uploads/7/1/5/7/7/ar128326764377517.JPG

http://tamparealestateinsider.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/the-place-at-channelside.jpg

http://tampa.condo.com/PropertyUploads/1506481/83b762c1-9fd5-4454-be1a-370b554330c7.jpg

The example of Tampa's streetcar is encouraging; how much longer do we expect until a final route is chosen with the completion of the AA and Fixed Guideway Study? Within a year...? Also, what would be a reasonable time period to expect it to be completed after a route is chosen?

I wouldn't mind seeing something similar in design to this structure here be use for the hub, only larger of course but the architectural style. I cannot believe that this building sits abandoned in Oklahoma City, I would LOVE to have something like a performing arts center or some kind of private law library / civic purpose move into this building. If that wasn't an option a 'House of Blues: Oklahoma City' would be cool.

http://www.abandonedok.com/center-for-design-arts-revisited/

Get ready to cry.
...


Actually, I did a little. Very sad.

The example of Tampa's streetcar is encouraging; how much longer do we expect until a final route is chosen with the completion of the AA and Fixed Guideway Study? Within a year...? Also, what would be a reasonable time period to expect it to be completed after a route is chosen?

Much more quickly than many of the critics and skeptics think. This process is accelerated and many of the critical answers will be concreted into place by March. they absolutely have to be to meet Project 280 schedules.

We had an AA meeting last week, a hub meeting today, and a MAPS transit oversight next week. Things are "rolling."

The only piece that is a little behind us is the Convention Center Study.

Can we have Fort Worth's $25 million federal grant if they're not going to use it?

If we put in the federal application when the AA is done, yes it is possible. My guess is that this FTA Regional Division is going to want to "save some face." Fort Worth was supposed to be a large feather in their cap.

I wouldn't mind seeing something similar in design to this structure here be use for the hub, only larger of course but the architectural style. I cannot believe that this building sits abandoned in Oklahoma City, I would LOVE to have something like a performing arts center or some kind of private law library / civic purpose move into this building. If that wasn't an option a 'House of Blues: Oklahoma City' would be cool.

http://www.abandonedok.com/center-for-design-arts-revisited/

That is a very nice building and a definate case for a building that we do not want to see ever go away, sweet street presence, could be reporposed for a number of uses.

Get ready to cry.

This:
http://en.wikivisual.com/images/b/ba/Penn_Station3.jpg http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Penn_Station1.jpg/120px-Penn_Station1.jpg

was replaced by this:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/media/2008/02/penn.jpg http://www.visitingdc.com/images/new-york-penn-station-address-2.jpg

There are no words to adequately describe the tragedy that is the new Penn station in comparison to the stunning older one. We have to carefully check ourselves when the thirst for progress can inadvertantly erase our history. Those mistakes cannot be undone...sigh.........long sigh................it makes me sick.

The hub meeting was pretty informative and thoughtful. A public meeting may be planned to gather community input in January.

Will one of the four route options (previously discussed at the meetings http://www.letstalktransit.com/meetings) be the final route chosen?

Will one of the four route options (previously discussed at the meetings http://www.letstalktransit.com/meetings) be the final route chosen?

To be honest... I hope not.

...and I'm starting a poll to ensure Kerry and I get to make all final decisions in this matter. *hehe*

Will one of the four route options (previously discussed at the meetings http://www.letstalktransit.com/meetings) be the final route chosen?

No. None of the route concepts that have arisen in recent meetings resemble any of the primary Let's Talk Transit route outcomes.

It is important to understand that the LTT meetings were very important to discover what is important to the public. Namely, what streets are important to people and what primary destinations do they prefer. I look at them as important illustrations that highlight what is important to people.

The system design itself will be refined into an elegant solution. We are looking at progressive technology and intuitive designs that could be incorporated.

Get ready to cry.



Have you ever read the book The Late Great Pennsylvania Station? It WILL make you cry.

No. None of the route concepts that have arisen in recent meetings resemble any of the primary Let's Talk Transit route outcomes.

It is important to understand that the LTT meetings were very important to discover what is important to the public. Namely, what streets are important to people and what primary destinations do they prefer. I look at them as important illustrations that highlight what is important to people.

The system design itself will be refined into an elegant solution. We are looking at progressive technology and intuitive designs that could be incorporated.

Thank goodness. BTW, good idea using them to get a sense of where people wanted the streetcar to go.

Have you ever read the book The Late Great Pennsylvania Station? It WILL make you cry.

No I haven't. I am trying to push my kids toward architecture so I will check that out. When I lived in the dorms at OU my roommate was an architecture major. His homework was always so much cooler than mine.

Re: The Ft Worth streetcar stopped

Fort Worth appears to be a city ran by some real morons. We'd be happy to snatch that federal funding. Holy crap, federal funding?!?! We never get federal funding! We've been begging for federal funding for transit for a looooong time. Here they are, with a 6 mile route that will cost only $88 million, $25 million of which the feds will pay for, so essentially a 6 mile streetcar system that will cost them $63 million or about $10 mil/mile and THEY TURN IT DOWN because they question the economics behind it and don't think the feds need to spend it!!

Holy crap. Amateurs! What morons. That is absolutely amazing. Inexplicable. Has everyone besides Oklahoma finally been offered so much federal transportation money that they're turning it down?

Urban Pioneer, thanks for always promptly answering the streetcar transit questions.

There is much to be excited about in Okc right now, but the streetcar is #1 on my list.

Also one could probably start to guess the streetcar route based off the streets that are under construction vs the streets that are yet to be under construction, for Project 180.

Fort Worth's streetcar plan is derailed

By John Henry

jfhenry@star-telegram.com

FORT WORTH -- The city's discussion and study of the viability of a modern streetcar system for the central city is over for now.

The City Council voted 5-3 on Tuesday to pull the plug on a feasibility study of running a streetcar line to the near north side through downtown and the near south side.

Mayor Mike Moncrief joined council members Carter Burdette, Jungus Jordan, Danny Scarth and Zim Zimmerman in voting against continuing to the final phase of the three-part study. Council members Joel Burns, Sal Espino and Frank Moss voted to proceed.

District 8 Councilwoman Kathleen Hicks was in Europe on city business, said Will Trevino, her assistant.

"This has been a real struggle for me," Moncrief said. "The bottom line is, many of us are still wrestling with concerns over funding."

A vote to proceed with the study would have paved the way for the city to accept a $25 million federal grant, which was expected to jump-start the estimated $88 million project.

A consultant, HDR Engineering, reported that streetcars were viable for the center city.

The line, according to city plans, would have consisted of three cars traversing a six-mile round-trip. It would have operated 14 hours a day, 365 days a year and carry an estimated 2,000 people a day.

The total cost of construction would have been offset by the federal grant. The rest would have been covered by the Trinity River Vision and Southside tax increment financing districts, or TIFs.

Officials estimated the system's operating cost at $1.6 million a year, which initially would be funded by the Fort Worth Transportation Authority, or the T.

Later, residents of the neighborhoods where the line runs would vote on whether to take on operational costs.

The assumption that the residents would take on operating costs and the unknown health of the TIFs in the future made forging ahead a risky proposition for taxpayers, Burdette said.

Critics were also skeptical of a study that projected $334 million in new residential and commercial development along the line. Not to mention that the federal government didn't need to be spending the money, either, their thinking went.

Advocates promoted the project as a environmentally friendly transportation option and a big step toward the dream of downtown as a fully functional and livable urban center.

Many were at Tuesday night's council meeting to plead with the council to "get all the facts," as one speaker said, before making a final decision.

"Proven by every economic study, investment in streetcars creates billions in economic development and brings jobs to our community," Burns said. "We are taking these job opportunities away from the Fort Worth community."

However, Moncrief asked: "What if economic development doesn't occur? What if interest rates don't drastically improve? How do we pay for maintenance and upkeep?"

Proceeding to Phase 3 of the study did have the support of the transportation committee of DFW Inc. as well as a majority of the board that replied to a survey, President Andy Taft said.

'Not the end'

About $821,000 was spent on the study, a large portion of which -- roughly $657,000 -- was covered by a federal grant. The city and The T split the difference. The city's money not spent on Phase 3 will be returned to a bond fund dedicated to urban projects.

A yes vote would not have cleared the way for streetcars. Phase 3 was expected to take up to a year to complete and included an environmental assessment.

The council is unanimous in agreeing that a comprehensive mass transit plan to deal with congestion and moving people from the suburbs to the central city is a priority.

Whether the streetcar is a part of that discussion is still a question.

Moncrief and Scarth both said streetcars would and should be discussed again, but with investors and not taxpayers bearing the burden of the cost.

"This is not the end of the conversation about streetcars and the related transportation needs of this city," Burns said.

"If we are to realize our potential as an important, major U.S. city and provide the economic opportunities we owe our citizens we must not fail to plan for our future."


Read more: http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/12/07/2687674/fort-worths-streetcar-plan-is.html#ixzz17d1lPobn

Wow! How stupid is Fort Worth? Their city is tailor made for a modern streetcar. This should show just how far ahead of the curve OKC is on this matter.

Urban Pioneer, thanks for always promptly answering the streetcar transit questions.

There is much to be excited about in Okc right now, but the streetcar is #1 on my list.

Also one could probably start to guess the streetcar route based off the streets that are under construction vs the streets that are yet to be under construction, for Project 180.

Sure. I enjoy it. It is a good way to provide information to many interested people.

Regarding the P180 streets, I would say yes and no as an answer to your question. Early on, Jacobs Engineering was asked to give the P180 folks some idea of where their professional opinion thought what streets the streetcar would not be on.

There are some streets suck as Walker/Sheridan intersection, S. Robinson (next to Myriad Garden), and Reno that undoubtedly are streets that "could" potentially have a streetcar line.

But in terms of "entire streets", it seems that the majority of "streetcar key streets" are scheduled further out. So, there might potentially already be some reconstruction that might have to be done, but potentially not as well.

We are also looking at some incredible technologies that may reduce the impact to the streets and utilities period as well.

We have to carefully check ourselves when the thirst for progress can inadvertantly erase our history.

During this process, this is how I have felt about the Santa Fe Station Depot building itself. As someone who greatly appreciates Art Deco architecture, it is my hope that it can be reincorporated into our final hub design. Architect Hans Butzer has suggested that it could be a "formal front door" to the greater hub complex. I agree.

Santa Fe is no Penn Station. It is probably the size of Penn's coat closet. But it is here, it exists, and it is real authentic preserved Art Deco.

I would even argue the quality and finish detail of the structure is grander than OKC Union Station.

It also has "real" history as a functioning station. It was fascinating watching those videos that Lackmeyer posted of the streetcar and interurban system. A few seconds of one of the films shows a perspective from within the streetcar turning the corner and panning the area on its approach to Santa Fe. There was energy and people milling about. The film clearly depicted that the station was part of the greater transportation network. The streetcars appear in some of the historical drawings to have directly interfaced with Santa Fe. The video he posted completely confirms those drawings.

More Streetcar related news;


Tempe hoping to create $160 million streetcar system

Dec. 13, 2010
The Arizona Republic

A three-year study aimed at improving transportation options south of the light rail line has culminated in a plan to fund a $160 million streetcar-transit project that would travel roughly along Mill Avenue between Southern Avenue and Rio Salado Parkway.

If federal funding for the project is approved , the streetcar would be operating in late 2016.

Tempe officials hope the project will spur economic development along the 2.6 mile rail line that would travel through downtown Tempe and south toward U.S. 60. Tempe officials have pointed to the new business development that Portland and Seattle experienced after building a streetcar as evidence of how Tempe would benefit from following that transit model.

"The streetcar is an investment in the community that can spur positive redevelopment and reinvestment in central Tempe neighborhoods," said Tempe transportation spokeswoman Amanda Nelson


Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/tempe/articles/2010/12/13/20101213tempe-street-car-transit-system1215.html#ixzz187jvEqCM


The regional approval last week, cleared the way for the 2.6 mile $160 million streetcar project.

Hillary Foose of Metro light rail said that about half of the funding for the project would come from Proposition 400, which was passed by Maricopa County voters in 2004 and extended a voter-approved half-cent-per-dollar sales tax by two decades. Metro will apply early next year for a federal transportation grant to fund the other half.

Operational costs are estimated at $3 million a year.


Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/tempe/articles/2010/12/13/20101213tempe-street-car-transit-system1215.html#ixzz187kmZgtI

I find it interesting that Tempe proposed streetcar project (2.6 miles costing $160 million) is going to apply for a Federal Grant to fund half of the $160 million dollar project.

Ft. Worth is turning down $25 million and Tempe is requesting $80 million.

How much is the Okc Streetcar asking for in Federal Grant money?

I find it interesting that Tempe proposed streetcar project (2.6 miles costing $160 million) is going to apply for a Federal Grant to fund half of the $160 million dollar project.

Ft. Worth is turning down $25 million and Tempe is requesting $80 million.

How much is the Okc Streetcar asking for in Federal Grant money?


While OKC may certainly request funds, it was the intention all along to make sure with MAPS 3, that the streetcars be funded without depending on other monies. This is in contrast with the streetcars under the original MAPS (when federal funding fell through, this is one of the reasons we ended up with the rubber tired trolleys instead).

I understand that Okc Maps3 has dedicated $130 million toward the streetcar.

If Tempe is bringing $80 million to the table and requesting another $80 million from the Feds, How much is Okc applying for in Federal Grants?
The Tempe article states that their Federal Grant application will be sent in early 2011.

Another interesting note is Tempe is estimating 2.6 miles at $160 million.

This is a stupid question, but i must be missibng the answer somewhere on this thread, so exactly how long is the transit system going to be in miles, and is there a map of where it will be going to? It would be great if we had something that would go as far the the zoo and remington and other popular places around okc

Try searching here;
http://www.okc.gov/maps3/modernstreetcar.html
http://www.letstalktransit.com/

Okc is hoping to get 6 miles.
No definitive map as of today.
This will not reach the Zoo or RP.

Maybe we will know more tomorrow, there is a MAPS3 transit meeting later this afternoon.

thanks you okclee, it looks nice, hope it all goes together soon

How much is the Okc Streetcar asking for in Federal Grant money?

We haven't asked yet. The Alternatives Analysis project that is going on right now is essentially to put us in a position so that we can ask.

An also, there are different federal funding devices that we can approach. Tiger and Livability Grants have been some the latest transit funding incarnations over the past two years.

right now, we are trying to get far enough along so that we can ask the FTA for a "Letter of nor prejudice." Obtaining this letter will enable us to potentially expend MAPS streetcar monies ahead of FTA processes and be able to claim those expenses as part of our local match.

I understand that Okc Maps3 has dedicated $130 million toward the streetcar.

$120 million specifically delineated to the streetcar, while there is another $10 million for commuter rail and other transit infrastructure. You might think of the $10 million as "flex funds" as we don't know exactly what the priorities are going to be until the hub study and such is completed.

This is a stupid question, but i must be missibng the answer somewhere on this thread, so exactly how long is the transit system going to be in miles, and is there a map of where it will be going to? It would be great if we had something that would go as far the the zoo and remington and other popular places around okc

The goal is between 5 an 6 miles of streetcar. The $10 million, depending on how it is utilized, could potentially be used to get the "Adventure Line" up and running to Remington and the zoo via some of the $10 million in "flex funds." However, the hub itself and how the "phased approach" is laid out will probably directly influence the priorities in how the flex money is spent.

I wouldn't count out the MAPS transit subcommittee or some key members of city council from examining what it would take and cost to get out there though. Just keep in mind, those discussions will happen later as we are scrambling to get the streetcar route finalized. We do however want to reach as many places with quality transit as possible. It would be nice to have something else arrive at the hub in the beginning other than just Amtrak. Linking those two entertainment districts together would make a great deal of sense if there is any money left over to actually do it. It would also rely on "partners" ie: other budget contributors to cover the annual operating cost of the Adventure Line.

The goal is between 5 an 6 miles of streetcar. The $10 million, depending on how it is utilized, could potentially be used to get the "Adventure Line" up and running to Remington and the zoo via some of the $10 million in "flex funds." However, the hub itself and how the "phased approach" is laid out will probably directly influence the priorities in how the flex money is spent.

I wouldn't count out the MAPS transit subcommittee or some key members of city council from examining what it would take and cost to get out there though. Just keep in mind, those discussions will happen later as we are scrambling to get the streetcar route finalized. We do however want to reach as many places with quality transit as possible. It would be nice to have something else arrive at the hub in the beginning other than just Amtrak. Linking those two entertainment districts together would make a great deal of sense if there is any money left over to actually do it. It would also rely on "partners" ie: other budget contributors to cover the annual operating cost of the Adventure Line.

Urban Pioneer, again thanks for all the great info.

I found this line interesting too,
It would also rely on "partners" ie: other budget contributors to cover the annual operating cost of the Adventure Line

Could this be Remington Park's newly planned Hotel Casino mega-plex? I would bet that RP / Chickasaw Nation, Global Gaming would take a look at having a direct passenger rail from downtown Okc to the Adventure District. I could see that making a nice partnership, a win / win for all involved.

Urban Pioneer, again thanks for all the great info.

I found this line interesting too,

Could this be Remington Park's newly planned Hotel Casino mega-plex? I would bet that RP / Chickasaw Nation, Global Gaming would take a look at having a direct passenger rail from downtown Okc to the Adventure District. I could see that making a nice partnership, a win / win for all involved.


I think that it is arguable that any entity in the "Adventure Area" could potentially benefit from connection to Bricktown and Downtown proper. A family could visit the land run, canal, etc and make a trip to the zoo. Or they could "park in ride" via the enormous parking availability when there are not events at Remington.

I mentioned the Chickasaw Nation / Global Gaming (Remington Park, Win Star, Riverwind Casino, etc) because in the Adventure District there is only one place, Remington Park, that makes the amount of profits that could easily fund these operating costs. Also Chickasaw Nation recently opened up a Bricktown Tourism Office, 1 E. Sheridan the Candy Factory Building, on Dec 6, 2010.

I was viewing Google Maps and looking at the railway that connects the Adventure District to Bricktown. It looks like there is a Park and Ride train depot already in place, NE50th and I-35. Can anyone confirm this?

It appears to be all new construction and paving of a parking lot along with some type of small structures for possible passenger wait areas.

I was viewing Google Maps and looking at the railway that connects the Adventure District to Bricktown. It looks like there is a Park and Ride train depot already in place, NE50th and I-35. Can anyone confirm this?

It appears to be all new construction and paving of a parking lot along with some type of small structures for possible passenger wait areas.

There is a passenger platform built for the Centennial via the Oklahoma Railway Museum that is 1/2 a mile down the track.

As to parking or such under construction right now, I have no idea. Housing is going up in some of those areas as well.

I wouldn't want to see the current rail right of way to the Adventure District used for a trolley line. The trolley tracks need to be located in the street. I would take it right up Lincoln, hang a right on 50th and right into Remington Park. From there the other attractions in the Adventure District could run their own free shuttle service. That line would then link Bricktown, OU Medical, The Capitol Complex, Harn Homestead, State Supreme Court, Oklahoma History Museum, Remington Park, and Zoo PLUS open Lincoln to major redevelopment. Lincoln could become THE STREET in this part of the country. Could you just imagine Lincoln lined with retail and mid-rise condos/apartments.

I wouldn't want to see the current rail right of way to the Adventure District used for a trolley line. The trolley tracks need to be located in the street. I would take it right up Lincoln, hang a right on 50th and right into Remington Park. From there the other attractions in the Adventure District could run their own free shuttle service. That line would then link Bricktown, OU Medical, The Capitol Complex, Harn Homestead, State Supreme Court, Oklahoma History Museum, Remington Park, and Zoo PLUS open Lincoln to major redevelopment. Lincoln could become THE STREET in this part of the country. Could you just imagine Lincoln lined with retail and mid-rise condos/apartments.
that wouldn't be the trolley line .. that would be a seprate rail line

that wouldn't be the trolley line .. that would be a seprate rail line

I am not in favor of multiple rail systems. To keep operating cost lower I would prefer the same kind rail infrastructure system wide. The Adventure District needs to be rolled into the existing fabric of transportation. We can't have a trolley around downtown, lightrail going to the airport, diesel trains going to the Adventure District, and Heavy Commuter Rail going to Norman and Edmond. There is no economy of scale there. I see two system - trolley circulators in town and commuter rail connecting towns.