I've spent time in Zurich. Can't really compare Zurich and OKC.

Not now you can't, but you could have 50 years ago. OKC came to a fork in the road, and took it. A lot of damage needs to be undone. Re-creating a high density urban downtown built around a street car system is step one. MAPS III passed a year ago next month. I was hoping to see a final track layout by now.

If you were hoping to see final track layout by now, under any scenario you were doomed to be sorely disappointed. It just doesn't happen that fast.

Completely true, but things will be speeding up shortly. A "preferred" route will be developed first. Then that preference is subject to change as well once utility and "fatal flaw" evaluations affect it in relation to the available budget for the overall system.

Meanwhile, I thought it might be interesting to see what other cities are up to. Here is a prety extensive list of cities in various stages of rebuilding their trolley/street car systems

http://www.heritagetrolley.com/PlannedSystems.htm

Meanwhile, I thought it might be interesting to see what other cities are up to. Here is a prety extensive list of cities in various stages of rebuilding their trolley/street car systems

http://www.heritagetrolley.com/PlannedSystems.htm

Kerry, that is interesting because OKC is actually ahead of many of those cities in both planning and funding. I found it surprising that a large city like Atlanta has had to cut their proposed system back from 9.2 miles to 2.6 miles even with a $47 million dollar federal grant.

The two cities that are actually physically in the process of doing something are Tuscon, AZ and Washington D.C. My guess is that our system completion is right behind Tuscon and may actually make it before any part of DC is in operation.

Fort Worth and Dallas just recently received FTA monies. Cincinnati is also aggressively pursuing Modern Streetcar.

Is their a Okc Streetcar meeting coming up?

Is their a Okc Streetcar meeting coming up?

The first MAPS Citizen Advisory Transit meeting is coming up. I don't know the location as of yet or the final agenda. It will be a working meeting.

Apparently several new republican governors are pretending to reject millions in high-speed rail money. I say we generously step in and offer to take it off their hands...
http://www.npr.org/2010/11/10/131223230/not-so-fast-future-for-high-speed-rail-uncertain

Okay, so you take high-speed rail to Tulsa and you get there 30 minutes faster than taking your own car. How are you going to get around once you are there? Keep in mind the HSR ticket is also $50 per person.

Not to downplay our eastern neighbor (I'm from Tulsa), but i'd really be more interested in HSR to Dallas. What you mention is spot on, Tulsa has no real public-transit to speak of. Although DART certainly has its detractors, it's got more to offer than Tulsa Transit.

Apparently several new republican governors are pretending to reject millions in high-speed rail money. I say we generously step in and offer to take it off their hands...
http://www.npr.org/2010/11/10/131223230/not-so-fast-future-for-high-speed-rail-uncertain

Mary Fallin will be far worse than these govs. Watch.

Not to downplay our eastern neighbor (I'm from Tulsa), but i'd really be more interested in HSR to Dallas. What you mention is spot on, Tulsa has no real public-transit to speak of. Although DART certainly has its detractors, it's got more to offer than Tulsa Transit.

Dallas is the same way. The problem with nearly every American city is that 'things to do' are not next to each other. The will be an urban hotspot, but the next hotspot is 5 miles away and in between is a bunch of homes. American city needs to be rebuilt at the core. We don't even have cities anymore, we just have a bunch of people that live close to each other. It wasn't always this way (thank you GM).

I would love to see a commuter rail system in central Oklahoma. Living in Norman and being an OU football fan I’m interested in learning how significantly could a commuter rail system reduce football traffic and parking congestion.

How much capacity per hour would be needed to be to make real difference and is this feasible?
What type of construction is needed for a stop near the OU duck pond?
Should they build a short spur line to the west toward the stadium to shorten the walk?

From what I have been told years ago thousands of OU fans took several special trains to the games in Norman.
I would guess that this location would be well used all year long.

This is a very interesting thread about where Fort Worth's modern streetcar project is. It is their version of OKCTalk it seems.

http://fortworthology.com/2010/10/05/hdr-recommends-first-phase-of-fort-worth-modern-streetcar-project-identifies-funding/

What a neat city Fort Worth is, and the street car is perfect for it.

Urban Pioneer, can you address whether or not the proposed Fort Worth system will be more expansive than OKC's?

Man they have a slammin proposal! I hope likewise we can develop a similarly comprehensive paln that will work and stand on its own, and then add and complement the larger Mass transit plan that will dovetail off of the studies being done.

What are the chances that Ft. Worth has theirs up and running before Okc has theirs?

Also, why can't Okc do some sort of additional funding via TIF? Let the areas that will benefit from it help pay for it and Okc could have more miles of track.

I also like the info on the Ft. Worth website showing suburban living vs urban living and the generation Y wanting the urban walkable factor in a city.

I am guessing that Fort Worth will beat us due to a couple of key things.

They have thier route nailed down, and have a proposal that is pretty dang solid from both ridership information as well as a net zero General fund cost to implement the plan. With return projections on the initial investment at 4 to 1 I don't see how they couldn't be hitting the ground running as fast as they can get the cars delivered, so long as they have thier right of way issues squared away. From the looks of it the plan is fairly straitforward so again I see them slinging track much sooner than us. I would love to be surprised but to do so would involve us having the completed Hub Study, Convention location identified, and we are operating on a fixed budget that will buy less and less as time move forward. We need to have definative routes in place and a plan for funding as well as a comprehensive plan that is not rough shod just to get it done quickly.

Okc's Plan has to be done right or its dead. We need to thread the fine line of getting product to market as soon as possible so we remain relevant and capitalize on the momentum that is causing the generation Y's to take notice, as well as have the much needed and relevant data upon which to make the most of our limited budget so we are not having to patch things together later to make the real plan make sense.

OKC's system will be the single largest amount of modern streetcar network construction done at any one time so far. Furthermore, it's a fully 100% local match, i.e., the all funding is local and is definitely in place. I understand things are going to move quickly in the next few months with regard to route selection - the Alternatives Analysis process will be completed shortly plus preliminary Hub locations will have been identified and the convention center consultant study will be moving forward. But we're not really in a competition with Fort Worth. If a nearby peer city is working on a similar system that's fantastic for public and political awareness. The real competition right now is with Project 180 and maximizing the use of taxpayer funds, specifically not relocating utilities twice. Even if tracks may not be laid for a while, the sooner key streets can be identified, the more money can be saved.

I would love to see a commuter rail system in central Oklahoma. Living in Norman and being an OU football fan I’m interested in learning how significantly could a commuter rail system reduce football traffic and parking congestion.

How much capacity per hour would be needed to be to make real difference and is this feasible?
What type of construction is needed for a stop near the OU duck pond?
Should they build a short spur line to the west toward the stadium to shorten the walk?

From what I have been told years ago thousands of OU fans took several special trains to the games in Norman.
I would guess that this location would be well used all year long.

ou, I assume that was a joke about the system you're hoping for possibly needing a spur from the Duck Pond to the stadium. The Duck Pond is closer to the stadium than Campus Corner is.

Urban Pioneer, can you address whether or not the proposed Fort Worth system will be more expansive than OKC's?

It will be the largest, perhaps the most complex, and the most technologically advanced "starter" streetcar system built in modern American history.

The only city building anything on our scale at one time is Tuscon, AZ. But will be looking even beyond their goals with our $130 million local match.

Let me rephrase: will OKC's street car system be the largest, or Fort Worth's?

Ours wiill be LARGER. Read my first sentence again. We have more money. Lines on a map do not constitute what will actually be built.

The Portland system, which I think is the largest in the US, is only 4 miles long.

Okc's Plan has to be done right or its dead. We need to thread the fine line of getting product to market as soon as possible so we remain relevant and capitalize on the momentum that is causing the generation Y's to take notice, as well as have the much needed and relevant data upon which to make the most of our limited budget so we are not having to patch things together later to make the real plan make sense.

Agree, it must be done right the first time. Austin built their commuter rail first and it has been a colossal failure. That now puts their light rail/streetcar plans in jeopardy.

Agree, it must be done right the first time. Austin built their commuter rail first and it has been a colossal failure. That now puts their light rail/streetcar plans in jeopardy.

This is exactly why the rail component of MAPS I would have been a disaster. We dodged a bullet on that one.

The Portland system, which I think is the largest in the US, is only 4 miles long.

Yes, true, but a great deal of it is "double-tracked." So it is really more like 8 miles of actual linear track feet. And Portland is aggressively adding more on as we speak. They will continue to be the leader in overall system size for the foreseeable future.

However, while I was up there, it was clear had they known more, the system design would be more advanced and "smoother." There are "kinks" they are trying to work out. We have the luxury of starting from scratch with the possibilities of new technologies. In terms of a "starter system," we will be far ahead for the immediate future.

ou, I assume that was a joke about the system you're hoping for possibly needing a spur from the Duck Pond to the stadium. The Duck Pond is closer to the stadium than Campus Corner is.

No isn’t a joke.
Yes the OU duck pond is closer to the stadium but the main line is about the same distance as it is to campus corner.

A short Y shaped spur line would provide more safe staging space for a large number of passengers.
It would allow for more safe options if expansion is ever needed.... such as a second platform.
On a daily basis the more convenient any system is (shorter walk) the higher the ridership would likely be.
A spur line would also provide a place for commuter trains to temporarily get out of the way of other trains.

If you’re familiar with the OU campus I’m thinking a station should be located just north of the track & field complex in an area that’s currently a parking lot. But even if the station is at the main line this general area is a far better location for severing the needs of a majority of Norman’s Amtrak passengers.

Yes, true, but a great deal of it is "double-tracked." So it is really more like 8 miles of actual linear track feet.

I was just going by their web site that said a 4 mile loop. Thanks for the clarrification

No isn’t a joke.
Yes the OU duck pond is closer to the stadium but the main line is about the same distance as it is to campus corner.

A short Y shaped spur line would provide more safe staging space for a large number of passengers.
It would allow for more safe options if expansion is ever needed.... such as a second platform.
On a daily basis the more convenient any system is (shorter walk) the higher the ridership would likely be.
A spur line would also provide a place for commuter trains to temporarily get out of the way of other trains.

If you’re familiar with the OU campus I’m thinking a station should be located just north of the track & field complex in an area that’s currently a parking lot. But even if the station is at the main line this general area is a far better location for severing the needs of a majority of Norman’s Amtrak passengers.

Another reason a commuter line makes so much sense utilizing the existing BNSF right-of-way. I don't think there needs to be a spur. Build the station where the tracks cross Brooks at the Duck Pond. And then build the campus toward the station. Lots of under-utilized land in between Jenkins and the tracks for campus expansion, especially housing for students.

Do we really think BNSF will give us right of way? I can see if for a gameday "fan train" or something occasional. But, that is a really busy line and I'm suspicious that if asked, they would be uninterested in sharing that line with us.

I don't think BNSF will, I agree it seems like that line is going non stop as is.

Sounds like it is time for an additional line, and I am not discounting all that is involved with a statement like that. It just remains a fact that if there is not the sharing capacity that would work without hampering BNSF or the Commuter Rail Service then another line is needed that could be used primarly by commuter rail and in a pinch by BNSF if some agreement could be reached that was mutually beneficial. Of course there are complex issues with respect to right of way issues but these are the growing pains that we as a city and region must take head on and address to not retard future growth and developent. While we are at it, it only makes sense to go ahead and plan out and accomodate a right of way that can accomodate HSR corridor. Make the difficult decisions all at once and not have to do this over and over again with endless studies upon studies. I am hopeful that the current studies will take all rail issues inder consideration and make the reccommendations accordingly with the long view in mind, not just plug the leak that is squirting today.

Official efforts on commuter rail and high-speed rail assume the BNSF line will need to be double-tracked. ACOG's federal TIGER grant application efforts last year included cost analysis based on double-tracking the BNSF line between Edmond and Norman. ODOT's federal High-Speed Rail application included costs to double-track the BNSF line from Oklahoma City to the Texas border. At about the same time as those applications were being prepared, BNSF made a last minute request to the City of Norman to modify the design of the new Robinson Street underpass to allow room for 3 rail lines instead of 2. BNSF is clearly preparing for future commuter and high-speed rail service along their lines and within their right-of-way. It will require negotiations and compensation, but in the end they will most likely agree as double-tracking will provide some benefits to them, such as not having to share their single main line with Amtrak.

ACOG is now planning to undertake a comprehensive Alternatives Analysis in 2011 of the 3 primary commuter rail corridors identified in the Fixed Guideway Study (Edmond, Norman, Midwest City to Oklahoma City). That is a critical evaluation necessary for being able to successfully compete for and receive Federal Transit Administration New Starts grant funding for new rail transit systems. The main reason we failed to receive any federal TIGER grant funds for commuter rail last year was due to the fact the necessary AA's had not been done.

If everything goes as planned, in the next year or so we will have completed an AA for the Modern Streetcar system and finalized the Intermodal Hub Study and completed an AA for the Fixed Guideway Commuter Rail system. That will allow us to competively seek and receive FTA grants and matching funds for developing and expanding an intermodal hub and those rail transit systems, including the double-tracking of the BNSF line between Norman and Edmond.

No isn’t a joke.
Yes the OU duck pond is closer to the stadium but the main line is about the same distance as it is to campus corner.

A short Y shaped spur line would provide more safe staging space for a large number of passengers.
It would allow for more safe options if expansion is ever needed.... such as a second platform.
On a daily basis the more convenient any system is (shorter walk) the higher the ridership would likely be.
A spur line would also provide a place for commuter trains to temporarily get out of the way of other trains.

If you’re familiar with the OU campus I’m thinking a station should be located just north of the track & field complex in an area that’s currently a parking lot. But even if the station is at the main line this general area is a far better location for severing the needs of a majority of Norman’s Amtrak passengers.

ou, I grew up in Norman and when to school at OU so I'm very familiar with the area. A spur from the Duck Pond area to towards the campus would be a total waste of money to save only a few steps. That's especially true when you consider how far OU students or football attendees typically walk. And Norman's Amtrak station won't be moving. It's a historical building in the perfect place in downtown Norman.

A spur line would have to be built. A passenger train can't stop on the main track and wait 30 minutes while passengers load and unload, prep the train for travel in the opposite direction, and other functions. This isn't the Heartland Flyer that stop in Norman for all of 2 minutes. It would be part of scheduled commuter service. Also, a station would have to be built as well as a sizeable parking garage because people would be using the system to go to work in OKC. And lets not forget space for transit oriented development. In reality, downtown Norman is a better location becasue it would do more for the City of Norman. Maybe Norman should look at connecting OU and a downtown station with a street car system. Heck, maybe Norman and OU should build a street car system regardless of a commuter rail station.

ou, I grew up in Norman and when to school at OU so I'm very familiar with the area. A spur from the Duck Pond area to towards the campus would be a total waste of money to save only a few steps. That's especially true when you consider how far OU students or football attendees typically walk. And Norman's Amtrak station won't be moving. It's a historical building in the perfect place in downtown Norman.

A short Y shaped spur line servers a purpose that is far more than just about saving steps.


It would provide the needed space for a new station that would serve OU students, facility & staff, fans and some Norman residents daily with Amtrak, commuter rail and CART bus service. A second Norman park and ride facility would likely be needed somewhere around Tecumseh Street.

The current Norman Amtrak train station is historical but that doesn’t mean that it even starts to meet the needs of a modern day transportation hub. If it’s even possible it would need major modifications that would also be very costly.

High ridership is the objective. As it is now CART doesn’t meet the train forcing travelers to depend on a car ride or an expensive taxi.
It would be relatively easy to make the new station a transportation hub for CART, further expanding the stations reach around campus and to the Norman community.

An on campus transportation station like this would be a great asset for OU and like something that very few other universities have.

A spur line would have to be built. A passenger train can't stop on the main track and wait 30 minutes while passengers load and unload, prep the train for travel in the opposite direction, and other functions. This isn't the Heartland Flyer that stop in Norman for all of 2 minutes. It would be part of scheduled commuter service. Also, a station would have to be built as well as a sizeable parking garage because people would be using the system to go to work in OKC. And lets not forget space for transit oriented development. In reality, downtown Norman is a better location becasue it would do more for the City of Norman. Maybe Norman should look at connecting OU and a downtown station with a street car system. Heck, maybe Norman and OU should build a street car system regardless of a commuter rail station.

What you're saying is much more logical than ou48A's proposal. Norman is much more than just OU now and the system would need to meet the needs of all citizens. Even just bus connections with the Amtrak station and the campus would be better than trying to build a whole new complex near the campus. For some reason the idea of a new rail complex in the Duck Pond area just strikes me wrong. It would destroy a peaceful attractive green space area near the campus.

Someone needs to explain to me how to take Google Maps that I make and post them on here. Dismayed does it all the time - please help.

I laid out a quick streetcar system in Norman. It makes a loop through downtown, goes along Main to Sooner Fashion Mall, along Ed Noble Pkwy, and Lindsey, turns left at the Stadium, cuts through Campus Corner, and back to downtown. Total distance was just over 8 miles. It would be a cool system to have and I think it would really help Norman. Imagine parking at Sooner Fashion and taking the street car to the game, or 2,000 students living in new apartments building built in downtown Norman. It would certainly help keep Sooner Fashion Mall alive and revive downtown Norman.

What you're saying is much more logical than ou48A's proposal. Norman is much more than just OU now and the system would need to meet the needs of all citizens. Even just bus connections with the Amtrak station and the campus would be better than trying to build a whole new complex near the campus. For some reason the idea of a new rail complex in the Duck Pond area just strikes me wrong. It would destroy a peaceful attractive green space area near the campus.

Any system built should be constructed in such a way that it maximizes ridership in cost effective ways or it is a waste of money.

Making the system as quick and seamless as possible is paramount to its success.

Except for the downtown location I’m in basic agreement with Kerry about what’s needed. The construction of a working downtown Norman transit system that would “meet the needs of all citizens” would still require major construction dollars that could be better used elsewhere.

But if it’s needed a commuter train could still service down town Norman just like it is.


Norman’s growth over the years has made down town Norman extremely congested during drive time. From where I live in NW Norman I can drive to OKC during rush hour almost as fast as I can drive to down town Norman. Many Norman commuters to OKC live near I -35 or on the north side of Norman. These are a major target for daily commuter rail.

It is true that Norman is much more than just OU. But this is exactly why a Tecumseh street station would likely be needed. With the recent completion of the Tecumseh street project commuter rail users would have easy park and ride access from the from the East, North and West sides of Norman. CART could service this stop too.
For the vast majority of daily commuters to OKC a down town Norman location would be a horrible location for train service.

High numbers of people making the drive to Norman daily end up at OU. This is one reason why you need a station at OU.

The area where I would build the OU station is currently a large parking lot so only a small amount of grassy green space would be taken up.

With the many freight trains going by the duck pond it’s hardly a peaceful place these days. Today it’s actually a very noisy place. The trains can be heard all over campus and in much of Norman. You can even hear them on TV or radio over the crowds at football games.
This project should include sound dampening devices. They have done this in Dallas. If sound damping devices were installed though Norman it would help the quality of life for many Norman residents and improve property values. And just maybe the project could include a badly needed face lift for the duck pond. I have visited MANY far more attractive and peaceful farm ponds.

One of the big side-effects of rail is Transit Oriented Development. Rail stations spur private development. For this very reason it should not be located on OU property. Downtown Norman is the best location because that is where you want high density development to occur. Right now downtown Norman the highest density but it is under utilized. Connecting downtown Norman and Downtown OKC with commuter rail and local street car systems at both ends is a win-win for everyone.

OKCs lack of downtown retail could be offset by access to Norman retail. If you live in downtown OKC and want to go to the mall just walk to the train station, ride to Norman, and get on the local streetcar to Sooner Fashion Mall for the day. Eat along Ed Noble Pkwy, then go home.

One of the big side-effects of rail is Transit Oriented Development. Rail stations spur private development. For this very reason it should not be located on OU property. Downtown Norman is the best location because that is where you want high density development to occur. Right now downtown Norman the highest density but it is under utilized. Connecting downtown Norman and Downtown OKC with commuter rail and local street car systems at both ends is a win-win for everyone.

OKCs lack of downtown retail could be offset by access to Norman retail. If you live in downtown OKC and want to go to the mall just walk to the train station, ride to Norman, and get on the local streetcar to Sooner Fashion Mall for the day. Eat along Ed Noble Pkwy, then go home.

You already have billions of dollars’ worth of development at OU,,,,,, with more to come.

You already have thousands of potential riders within walking distance,,,,,, with more to come.


With OU there is a need and demand already in place and it’s only going to grow........
This would also help make OU a better university for our entire state.......

But even still there are several places around OU’s campus that could see private development.
The Campus Corner area would benefit. There are also several nearby places where old dilapidated homes, apartments and other old buildings that could be cleared or refurbished for private development.
This would further aid in building far more density than a downtown Norman hub ever could.

Downtown Norman is underutilized in large part because it’s hard place to get to for many Norman residents.
But it’s also old and largely antiquated. But as I previously mentioned you could still stop in downtown Norman with commuter rail, maybe then you would see some of the development that you talk about.

Because of the extremely congested streets a local streetcar in modern day Norman is a big time no go.
Any cross town transit system in Norman that isn’t a bus would need to have lots of grade separation.
But a north – south monorail system on OU’s campus has been the dream of some.

Here are some maps I made that apply to this thread:

Commuter Rail
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/OKCTRANSIT.jpg

Streetcar
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/okclightrail2.jpg

Streetcar with Commuter Rail to the airport and Sheridan Trolley
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/okclightrail3.jpg

What is the current situation with the Norman Quiet Zone for the BNSF tracks?

OU48A - street cars run in the travel lanes so there is no grade seperation. The entire world uses this style and it works fine. The congested streets and 'hard to get to' characteristics are what makes street cars perfect for downtown Norman. I am also not leaving OU or Campus Corner out as the street car I envsions would run through Campus Corner and loop around the campus. Anything on the OU campus would require OU oversight so that rules out anything being built by the private sector and will practially ensure that nobody but students would live anywhere near a primary station. Plus, any parking for commuters to OKC would be taken up by OU students. The whole station and retail/office parking would just become a student parking lot.

If you want to see a real modern streetcar, and cannot get to Seattle, Tacoma, or Portland, here's your local chance....

Fort Worth


http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/11/17/2640816/model-streetcar-goes-on-display.html

This has a very interesting time lapse video of the people putting together the demonstration.


http://blogs.star-telegram.com/honkin_mad/2010/11/modern-streetcar-comes-to-fort-worth.html

OU48A - street cars run in the travel lanes so there is no grade seperation. The entire world uses this style and it works fine. The congested streets and 'hard to get to' characteristics are what makes street cars perfect for downtown Norman. I am also not leaving OU or Campus Corner out as the street car I envsions would run through Campus Corner and loop around the campus. Anything on the OU campus would require OU oversight so that rules out anything being built by the private sector and will practially ensure that nobody but students would live anywhere near a primary station. Plus, any parking for commuters to OKC would be taken up by OU students. The whole station and retail/office parking would just become a student parking lot.


A plan such as what you have suggested doesn’t provide maximum seamless travel for the maximum amount of riders and would needlessly add a good deal of time to the trips destination for many travelers.

If it’s needed OU could sign over the land to the city or state or whoever. OU and the city of Norman have done this before on other projects.

I can’t see people relocating to live in downtown Norman because of a streetcar system. But if a street car system is necessary it could easily operate from the prosed transportation hub at OU.

There is plenty of privately held land within easy (10 minute) walking distance from this location, including land directly across the street to the north. This and other nearby land would become more valuable. There are condos being built right now along the main line near OU. At one time there had been a proposal to build a large complex of very high end condos just south of this location. This station would make that kind of development (that you want) more likely.

The last I knew there were over 10,000 students living in the dorms and in the Greek houses with thousands more living in nearby homes and apartments. Some already have CART bus service. In addition there are thousands of facility/ staff and visitors to OU daily. This station would also serve the needs of thousands of central Norman residents.
Many part time students do not live in Norman and at times Lindsey Street becomes a parking lot with student commuters.


If we want to maximum the success of this system it must be designed for quick and seamless travel:Smiley063

BG918
Thanks for the maps. Its good information.
The commuter rail map looks good to me.:bright_id

@ou48A - what maximum benefit are you talking about? Just how many people do you think commute from downtown OKC to OU everyday? Surely you aren't thinking this will only serve OU football fans 6 or 7 times a year. There is a lot more to Norman than OU and if the residents of Norman and Canadian County are going to pick up a large portion of the tab then they outght to get the largest portion of the benefit. If OU wants a mainline stop and train station then let them pay for it via a student transportation fee.

@ou48A - what maximum benefit are you talking about? Just how many people do you think commute from downtown OKC to OU everyday? Surely you aren't thinking this will only serve OU football fans 6 or 7 times a year. There is a lot more to Norman than OU and if the residents of Norman and Canadian County are going to pick up a large portion of the tab then they outght to get the largest portion of the benefit. If OU wants a mainline stop and train station then let them pay for it via a student transportation fee.

There are more than enough people at OU and in Norman to justify funding a system in the normal way.

If Norman is going to have a functioning commuter rail system there needs to be at least 2 stops. One at OU and one somewhere in North Norman.

If you have read all of my post you should know that I am talking about far more than just OU football games, there are many well attended events in Norman. Part of Norman has long been known as a bedroom community with thousand making the daily drive to OKC for work.

According to the link below there are approximately 30,000 students enrolled at OU. Over 10,700 personnel are employed at OU’s three campuses. As of 2010, Norman was estimated to have 115,876 full-time residents, making Norman the third-largest city in Oklahoma and the 234th-largest city in the United States. I would dare say that the mind set of many of these people would allow for a higher than normal daily ridership. And yes with enough capacity it would help OU fans with their transportation to football games.


Maximizing ridership = helping the most people possible in the best way possible to keep them
coming back for more than the just the charm and novelty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman,_Oklahoma

ou48A - I agree that there would be good solid ridership between Norman and OKC. However, a heavy rail commuter system is not set up for frequent stops. I could see maybe two stops on an OKC - Norman line. Start in Norman, with a stop in Moore, and a stop near Crossraods Mall. The next stop would be downtown OKC. All Norman transit riders should use a local streetcar collector and circulator system. Any parking near OU will quickly become a student parking lot. I know, I was a student once.

ou48A - I agree that there would be good solid ridership between Norman and OKC. However, a heavy rail commuter system is not set up for frequent stops. I could see maybe two stops on an OKC - Norman line. Start in Norman, with a stop in Moore, and a stop near Crossraods Mall. The next stop would be downtown OKC. All Norman transit riders should use a local streetcar collector and circulator system. Any parking near OU will quickly become a student parking lot. I know, I was a student once.

Not every train needs to stop at every station every single time. Some trains could skip some of the stations that have lower ridership numbers. Electrifying the system would also help some with frequent stops.

It would take many west side Norman residents 30 or more minutes to travel to a downtown Norman location on a street car. Then consider the time waiting on the street car and then commuter train. At this point most would just keep driving. It would take 10 minutes or less for most west side Norman residents to drive to a north Norman station, this is where most of the Norman commuters live.

People parking at the OU station would be required to buy a parking permit.
Currently virtually all OU parking within a mile of this location is by permit or it is metered.

There is another undeniable aspect to this project that I have not seen mention and that is politics.
If we want this project built the right politicians and others of influence in our state must get behind it.

Since a good many of our states political figures and others of great influence in our state have OU connections they would recognize the benefits to and would be more likely to get behind the overall plan if it includes an OU stop.
Many OU alums and fans would also support the project.

Please remember this project would benefit far more people than just the OU or Norman folks.
Like it or not OU and its people have political clout in our state.

Using them to get this done for all only makes good sense.

Not every train needs to stop at every station every single time. Some trains could skip some of the stations that have lower ridership numbers. Electrifying the system would also help some with frequent stops.

If you go with electric then you won't be using existing BNSF right of way. It would have to run down I-35 and never get close to OU


It would take many west side Norman residents 30 or more minutes to travel to a downtown Norman location on a street car. Then consider the time waiting on the street car and then commuter train. At this point most would just keep driving. It would take 10 minutes or less for most west side Norman residents to drive to a north Norman station, this is where most of the Norman commuters live.

Rail is a magnet for development, just like a road is. Rail is more about driving future development than it is about alleviating current traffic problems. This is why people say traffic is no better in Dallas after DART was put in. If you adjust your lifestyle to rail your traffic does get better.


People parking at the OU station would be required to buy a parking permit.
Currently virtually all OU parking within a mile of this location is by permit or it is metered.

OK, so I am in town visiting family (as I live out of state) and I want to take the train to OKC, you want be to buy a parking permit? FYI - Parking at all MARTA stations in Atlanta is free. Most park and ride lots are. If you charge people to park their car and charge them to ride the train, everyone will just drive.

If you go with electric then you won't be using existing BNSF right of way. It would have to run down I-35 and never get close to OU



Rail is a magnet for development, just like a road is. Rail is more about driving future development than it is about alleviating current traffic problems. This is why people say traffic is no better in Dallas after DART was put in. If you adjust your lifestyle to rail your traffic does get better.



OK, so I am in town visiting family (as I live out of state) and I want to take the train to OKC, you want be to buy a parking permit? FYI - Parking at all MARTA stations in Atlanta is free. Most park and ride lots are. If you charge people to park their car and charge them to ride the train, everyone will just drive.

If the overhead catenary wiring above the tracks is installed with enough clearance a freight train would have no problems and it would be entirely compatible. Diesel and electric locomotives do operate on the same tracks else were.

If you’re in town visiting you would might get a visitors pass as they do now or take CART to the OU station or else drive to the north Norman free parking station. Not all park and ride facilities are free parking.


To a certain extent C rail is about driving future development, this can and will occur even around OU, but it should not ignore a major high destination public area like OU that already exist and that will continue to grow regardless if it’s served by commuter rail.

BG, very good illustration, but your commuter rail is more of a setup for light rail actually; way too many stops.

I think in your North-South alignment, you would only have stops at Downtown Edmond, S. Edmond Park N Ride, 63rd Park N Ride or Transit Center, Capitol Transit Center (NE 23rd), DOWNTOWN and then Downtown Norman, Crossroads Mall Park N Ride, DOWNTOWN. Those two lines could terminate at Guthrie (in the North) and Purcell (in the South) to truly connect the metro area.

Anything more, then you would lose the benefit of commuter rail (capacity/speed) and would be implementing more of a light rail (lower capacity/higher stops/slower) system. Streetcar would have even more stops and be even slower than light rail.

With Cr, you're basically stopping at Park N Rides in the suburbs and Employment Centres in the city, and Downtown - of course.

But very good ideas. You didn't draw in the Choctaw/MWC/Tinker line - but I would think it would go Choctaw (terminus)-TIK (near one of the gates)-MidDel Transit Center-DOWNTOWN. I honestly think OKC could do all three of these commuter rail lines today, definitely around the same time the downtown streetcar is implemented. Longer term would be the WRWA line (which I thing should be light rail) and the El Reno-Yukon-W OKC PnR-Fairgrounds-DOWNTOWN commuter rail line.

4 commuter rail lines would really connect the metro area suburbs to downtown, and with streetcar in downtown and the inner core, and light rail connecting the inner core to the outer OKC - we would have a transit serviceable city. I think we should START NOW with implementing Commuter Bus, using the same routes as those planned for CR. Even if it is today just a few runs (maybe 200-500 daily pax). Once we get over 1000, then it would justify CR.

Would the money be better spent on a light rail system?
I’m not sure- just asking.
It would be better for more frequent stops.
It wouldn’t be restricted to current rail road right of way.
It could be built to take passengers closer to high destination stops.
As it was expanded it would be more of a seamless system.

You're right in that it is not restricted to existing right of way, but to set its own would make the cost so prohibitive that it is doubtful that we would ever have the ridership to overcome the initial cost of investment in the next 30 years. Financially it makes the most sense to have a commuter type rail system with its own double track in the BNSF right of way and to use light rail or street car to make the frequent stops as necessary to feed the commuter rail and allow for a seemless and comprehensive transportation system that will serve the broadest poulation possible.