I would say however that the sheer size of EK Gaylord offers several possibilities for a good design interface and possibly dedicated transit lanes. If you think that we might ever have BRT or "light-rail" in the future, space for such vehicles in a protected area is something to consider.

Something else occurred to me today. Why not have space to lease to vendors such as Bricktown Pedi Cab and bicycle rentals? How cool would it be if we took multi-modal to the extreme considering the direct access to tourists? Plus, hasn't the city started implementing a bike sharing program?

I would say however that the sheer size of EK Gaylord offers several possibilities for a good design interface and possibly dedicated transit lanes. If you think that we might ever have BRT or "light-rail" in the future, space for such vehicles in a protected area is something to consider.

Something else occurred to me today. Why not have space to lease to vendors such as Bricktown Pedi Cab and bicycle rentals? How cool would it be if we took multi-modal to the extreme considering the direct access to tourists? Plus, hasn't the city started implementing a bike sharing program?

We discussed all of this on one of these threads, but darned if I can find it. The major problem with removing EKG are the super blocks. If we didn't have the stupid super blocks to deal with the downtown grid would be intact. Downtown OKC has 4 super blocks all next to each which really mess things up.

Kind of a shame.

http://newsok.com/santa-fe-train-depot-promises-ou-texas-fans-wont-face-lockdown-of-station/article/3500783

No kidding I hope they get that resolved asap...I think it is time for the City to make an offer to purchase that building from Brewer and take this kind of possiblity out of the equation in the future! How awesome is that for riders to come into the station only to have to make the train back up and unload at a crossing without a platform and load them all into vans. That is not the kind of PR that the City needs to have as it is trying to build momentum behind both the Street cars and the need for Commuter rail!

There is NO CHANCE the Brewers will sell this building! Especially not now.

Eminent Domain?

There is NO CHANCE the Brewers will sell this building! Especially not now.

My company does plumbing work for Brewer Entertainment and a few weeks ago we added bathrooms in one of those retail shops for a Cupcake shop that's about to open. They're putting money in it still, so I doubt he'll come off the building unless the price tag is right. Trust me, he knows what kind of price tag is on it right now.

How did the Brewers come to own the train station in the first place?

Answered my own question - sort of...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_(Amtrak_station)


The station was purchased from the Santa Fe Railway in 1998 by Jim Brewer, a developer responsible for creating the nearby Bricktown entertainment district. It was soon renovated using $2 million funds provided through the Oklahoma Department of Transportation (ODOT) to make it ADA-compliant and allow train service to begin in 1999. Another $3.1 million renovation was completed in 2007, and additional ADA features were added with a $30,000 project following the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009.[1]

Until 2010, Amtrak was operating at the station through an informal agreement made in 1998 with Brewer Entertainment. That agreement allowed the railroad to use the station rent-free, but required the state to pay for utilities and other costs associated with station operations. No official lease had been drawn up until at least 2010, when Brent Brewer locked the doors of the depot on September 27th and 29th, forcing new negotiations with ODOT.[2]

It is unclear whether the station is owned by the City of Oklahoma City[1] or by Brewer Entertainment.


Who paid for $3.1 million renovation in 2007?

Just gotta throw this in. 3rd time I've attached it and still no response. Connecting Cox and the Sante Fe Station as a phased approach to both a new transportation portal as well as re-defining the space of Cox in anticipation of the new convention center coming on line is just down right logical (me thinks). Is anyone out there??

632

P.S. If someone can advise me how to make the attachment bigger, please feel free.

Just gotta throw this in. 3rd time I've attached it and still no response. Connecting Cox and the Sante Fe Station as a phased approach to both a new transportation portal as well as re-defining the space of Cox in anticipation of the new convention center coming on line is just down right logical (me thinks).

So in the scenario you posted, only the arena portion of the Cox Center will remain while space is made for two high-rise towers. Since keeping the arena will require building atleast 2 new exterior walls and roof reconstruction would it be cheaper to just tear down the whole thing and rebuild a AAA hockey arena, in the same spot or somewhere else downtown? Personally I would like to see the superblock broken up.

So in the scenario you posted, only the arena portion of the Cox Center will remain while space is made for two high-rise towers. Since keeping the arena will require building atleast 2 new exterior walls and roof reconstruction would it be cheaper to just tear down the whole thing and rebuild a AAA hockey arena, in the same spot or somewhere else downtown? Personally I would like to see the superblock broken up.

Kerry, the problem with that is that a small hockey arena just won't be built. The only option that is likely in the future is that a new large NBA arena will be built and perhaps the Ford Center (or whatever it will be called later) will be used for lesser events.

My company does plumbing work for Brewer Entertainment and a few weeks ago we added bathrooms in one of those retail shops for a Cupcake shop that's about to open. They're putting money in it still, so I doubt he'll come off the building unless the price tag is right. Trust me, he knows what kind of price tag is on it right now.

Pinkitzel

That would be the one!

There was supposed to be a Camille's Sidewalk Cafe in the old docks next to Envy, which is probably fixing to move to a different Brewer building.

Not entirely related to the topic of the thread, but just read that Oklahoma has been awarded $4 million for intercity rail projects, and Texas has received more than $5 million for DFW-OKC rail projects. Just a drop in the bucket, I know, but a good step nonetheless. The link is here:

http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/passenger/2243.shtml

Did you see how much money other cities and states will be receiving?

Example:

Charlotte $691 MILLION!!! Six Hundred and Ninety One Million!!!

Thanks Uncle Sam!

Did you see how much money other cities and states will be receiving?

Example:

Charlotte $691 MILLION!!! Six Hundred and Ninety One Million!!!

Yea, ouch right?! But, I think that's for the Charlotte - Raleigh line that is a priority corridor in round one. We're way further down on the priority list. But still, we're in the game, and hoepfully we can keep building momentum, albeit at a slower pace.

Did you see how much money other cities and states will be receiving?

Example:

Charlotte $691 MILLION!!! Six Hundred and Ninety One Million!!!

Thanks Uncle Sam!

Charlotte....hmmmm....isn't that where Bank of America is headquartered? Now then, why would Charlotte have any clout?

And they have successful rail services in their city that are well established. Something OKC does not. No surprise there.

yeah, Charlotte is further along and has plans ready to go - unlike OKC. I imagine once OKC gets a system up (the downtown streetcar) and we finalize our plans for Commuter Rail and get designs in place; we'll receive funding as well.

I hope they use the money to get another train, so that there could be two (or more) runs daily on the DFW-OKC route. Maybe Oklahoma would use it's share for the OKC-Kansas expansion.

Good news nevertheless.

Anyone see a "RED State", "BLUE State" type of funding theme going on here?

not really, I see it as places that are ready to go - got funded.

In fact, Oklahoma/OKC got more than when there was a Republican in office. .....

not really, I see it as places that are ready to go - got funded.

In fact, Oklahoma/OKC got more than when there was a Republican in office. .....

Thank you HOT ROD! okclee, this isn't a red state/blue state thing...

Did you see how much money other cities and states will be receiving?

Example:

Charlotte $691 MILLION!!! Six Hundred and Ninety One Million!!!

Thanks Uncle OBAMA!

Fixed.

Are there any maps that show the street car routes that used to exist in OKC? The curve in Mesta Park at Shartel and 18th is there because the street car went around that corner.

Doug's Blog has it all.

Yep Kerry, made one of those too.
The green lines are interurbans.... they extend to Guthrie, Norman, and El Reno.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ptab=2&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=111426230497418153646.000454d3fb33501bf0e9a

Yep Kerry, made one of those too.
The green lines are interurbans.... they extend to Guthrie, Norman, and El Reno.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ptab=2&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=111426230497418153646.000454d3fb33501bf0e9a

How cool would it be to have that layout still.

That is sad to look at that map and to think , What If?

That is sad to look at that map and to think , What If?

I try not to do that. It would make me cry.

I try not to do that. It would make me cry.

Amen. At the very least we can work hard to try and get back to that vision though. One day we WILL be a top city with an excellent transit infrastructure. A big part of that is working to lay the foundation and show the fed's and everyone else that we have a solid plan and the will to implement it. Unfortunately we're still behind in that regard, which is why places like Charlotte are getting more attention and funding but that can be changed.

Of course, I use OKC history to laugh in the face of people that say OKC can't support rail. It is like 1889 to 1960 never happenend in their minds.

Here's the link to the Federal Transit Administration's Historical Data page for those who are interested:

http://www.fta.dot.gov/funding/data/grants_financing_7195.html

Here's the link to the FTA's 1997-2007 federal transit funding summary for 39 major metropolitan areas:

http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/TABLE_H-4_HISTORIC.xls

Scroll down to the bottom and right of the spreadsheet to see the totals. Including the Fixed Guideway Modernization (FG) and New Starts (NS) programs listed on this data sheet, as well as other FTA transit funding programs, there has been more than $100 billion in federal transit funding provided to these and other cities since 1997, primarily for the development and expansion of rail transit systems. Oklahoma City received none of that funding.

Modern rail transit systems spur economic development, attract new businesses and residents, create jobs, increase property values and grow tax bases. The cities that have obtained federal funding and developed rail transit understand that fact very well. Hopefully, Oklahoma City is finally on its way to joining those cities in developing rail transit and to receiving its fair share of federal rail transit funding.

Q&A with Richard McKown (Ideal Homes President and future downtown developer) : Streetcar project called a must for downtown Oklahoma City's development

Oklahoman Comment on this article 3
Published: November 5, 2010

Q: During a discussion this week hosted by the Urban Land Institute, you were asked what Oklahoma City could do to boost downtown development and you answered "get tracks on the ground." What did you mean by that?
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A: I think the modern streetcar (part of MAPS 3 improvements for downtown) and having the tracks in the street is the most important thing the city can do to encourage downtown development — residential, office, retail — you name it. I've lived in two major cities with streetcars or rail-based transit. It's huge; it's absolutely what we need to be doing. It will change everything for Oklahoma City.

Q: What would you say to those who say there isn't a proven need for streetcars downtown?


Read more: http://newsok.com/qa-with-richard-mckown-streetcar-project-called-a-must-for-downtown-oklahoma-citys-development/article/3511461#ixzz14RcBEXaR

I posted this in the history, but thought some of you who don't browse that section might find this interesting - 60 minutes of color film of the old Interubans and OKC streetcars from the 1940s:
http://www.retrometrookc.org/the-george-winn-collection-videos

Steve, you need to do a story in the Sunday, Oklahoman showing the old Oklahoma City street car system Platemaker mapped out, but do it in a way that gives the appearance that this is what is being planned. Then drop the fact that it was already done 50 years. A lot of people in OKC today don't even know OKC had an extensive street car system. Write the whole thing, including ridership numbers (presented as projections), as if it is the future, and then spring it on them that it was in the past. We did it once, we can do it again.

Fabulous videos! When I was growing up in OKC in the 60's all I ever saw was the occasional hint of an old rail line on brick-lined streets downtown. So wonderful to see parts of our heritage brought to life that way... love the music. When (not if) the light rail line actually goes into OKC, it would be great if some of the old cars could be retro-fitted to run on the new tracks, if of-course any of the old cars still exist. They have done this here in Amsterdam with historical trams and it is a big success. Tourist can travel around town, just for the ride; there are corporate events on the trams and people even getting married! This would surely be a big hit in OKC as well.

David, the steet car system in OKC is going to modern. The system you describe is historical. The OKC system will be more for local and business, and less for tourist.

Interesting video posted to Steve Lackmeyer's blog this morning about modern streetcars made in America.

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/

Is Okc looking into buying American Made Streetcars?

Would this help in receiving federal money if Okc were to buy American?

David, the steet car system in OKC is going to modern. The system you describe is historical. The OKC system will be more for local and business, and less for tourist.

Yes Kerry that is what I meant. The tram here in Amsterdam (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amsterdam_Streetcar.JPG) is also very modern and carries tens of thousands of people per day, but they also occasionally use old restored cars (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.railmusea.nl/foto/AIOtmp.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.railmusea.nl/dienstregelingen.html&usg=__nMcL2jUn2JmfslxTNrzcE_5OW3o=&h=750&w=513&sz=51&hl=en&start=17&zoom=1&tbnid=qYA4bi7YWxrlLM:&tbnh=145&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3Damsterdam%2Boude%2Btram%26hl%3Den%26b iw%3D1308%26bih%3D598%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C 384&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=1083&vpy=180&dur=3042&hovh=272&hovw=186&tx=115&ty=158&ei=qUXYTNH6OISXOurA8MoJ&oei=lUXYTPn7C4SVOsXqrL0G&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:17&biw=1308&bih=598) for special occasions. OKC could do the same; regular modern streetcars for daily transportation and the old one(s) for tourist taking tours, weddings, conventions etc. Not necessarily to get from a to b.

Yes Kerry that is what I meant. The tram here in Amsterdam (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amsterdam_Streetcar.JPG) is also very modern and carries tens of thousands of people per day, but they also occasionally use old restored cars (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.railmusea.nl/foto/AIOtmp.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.railmusea.nl/dienstregelingen.html&usg=__nMcL2jUn2JmfslxTNrzcE_5OW3o=&h=750&w=513&sz=51&hl=en&start=17&zoom=1&tbnid=qYA4bi7YWxrlLM:&tbnh=145&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3Damsterdam%2Boude%2Btram%26hl%3Den%26b iw%3D1308%26bih%3D598%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C 384&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=1083&vpy=180&dur=3042&hovh=272&hovw=186&tx=115&ty=158&ei=qUXYTNH6OISXOurA8MoJ&oei=lUXYTPn7C4SVOsXqrL0G&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:17&biw=1308&bih=598) for special occasions. OKC could do the same; regular modern streetcars for daily transportation and the old one(s) for tourist taking tours, weddings, conventions etc. Not necessarily to get from a to b.

Oh, I got you. I don't see why there couldn't be a heritage line, especially if it was on a line that went through historic neighborhoods. I guess the biggest issue would be maintenance and repair. It is easier and cheaper to maintain a system where all the trains use the same parts.

Q&A with Richard McKown: Streetcar project called a must for downtown Oklahoma City's development

Published: November 5, 2010

By: Steve Lackmeyer

Q: During a discussion this week hosted by the Urban Land Institute, you were asked what Oklahoma City could do to boost downtown development and you answered "get tracks on the ground." What did you mean by that?

A: I think the modern streetcar (part of MAPS 3 improvements for downtown) and having the tracks in the street is the most important thing the city can do to encourage downtown development — residential, office, retail — you name it. I've lived in two major cities with streetcars or rail-based transit. It's huge; it's absolutely what we need to be doing. It will change everything for Oklahoma City.


Q: What would you say to those who say there isn't a proven need for streetcars downtown?

A: It's a symbol. It's a symbol that sends a message to the creative class work force, to young people, that Oklahoma City is cooler than Dallas, cooler than Austin, that Oklahoma City is forward thinking, that it's a modern city. The value is not just in how many ride it every day. It's about who rides it, it's about keeping and recruiting the best brains, the best young people, to our city. It's a big issue with people coming out of college right now. They want to be somewhere where they can go out drinking with friends, and not get in a car and break law to get home.


Q: How important is it that the future Oklahoma City streetcar system be routed through the Maywood neighborhood and Deep Deuce?

A: I think it's very important. We already have a good strong residential community down there that is about to grow substantially. There's room for a lot of continued growth. Once you hop in a streetcar to where you are going, it's really pleasant. It's part of what makes a place a great location.


Q: Will you be a daily rider when the streetcar system opens downtown?

A: Yes. I will come downtown, park my car when I'm working on my downtown projects, and I'll move around by streetcar. I'll get a pass to use all the time.


Read more: http://newsok.com/qa-with-richard-mckown-streetcar-project-called-a-must-for-downtown-oklahoma-citys-development/article/3511461?custom_click=pod_headline_daily-qa#ixzz14iuFzlO5

Kerry, it wouldn't need to be an entire "heritage line", it could just be a few of the cars would be heritage instead of modern. Portland has this capability, as does Vancouver. Most trams are modern but a few are heritage - they both run on the same track, same routes, same everything just different look/build.

You know, following this discussion makes me wonder if there is much if any of the old streetcar rail infrastructure UNDER the existing streets. Has it all been dug up or simply paved over. Does anyone, maybe Doug, know this? Wouldn't THAT be great to have heritage cars running on heritage lines as well as on the new Streetcar lines? Of-course this would be a huge investment, either by the city or a courageous entrepreneur/developer, but what a great attraction for the city. Just a thought.

P.S. Kind of gives me a warm feeling to know that OKC could appreciate and preserve its heritage this way AS WELL as promoting such fantastic developments for the future such as the Devon complex. Too bad Sandridge could not have taken this route.

I am sure some of rail is still there but it wouldn't be useable, especially by today's design requirements.

There are some areas where the rail is still exposed, however most has been removed and is as was mentioned unusable. No unfortunately we are a city that had one of the most comprehensive systems, now faced with starting from ground zero building a new one at significantly higher cost per mile...the killer is that a great deal of money was spent in the removal of the rails and working around them and burying them under asphalt etc...talk about negative investment. But there is a great deal to be hopeful on as long as we can get rails set in a reasonable enough amount of time that we can capitalize on its development power. This needs to be one of the highest priorities, as was mentioned in a previous post.

The street car has to come first. There will be minimal downtown development until tracks are laid. No one is going to build a residential tower downtown only to find out later they are 3 blocks from the rail system.

Is Okc looking into buying American Made Streetcars?

Would this help in receiving federal money if Okc were to buy American?

Yes we are and right now, it would. FTA favors "buy America." That can always change however.

I am sure some of rail is still there but it wouldn't be useable, especially by today's design requirements.

That is correct. A large section of it was just exposed and removed on Walker. It surfaced near Little Flower Catholic Church and was removed as part of the elevation change for the Walker overpass, over the new I-40 Crosstown. Other visible sections are the 4th street railroad underpass and some of the neighborhoods to the west of downtown.

Just curious..and if this has been addressed elsewhere please point me... but why did OKC's track-trolly system get dismantled in the first place? Was it not being used? Was it too expensive? Just public sentiment?

Rover, the answer is long and complicated - and should put a smile on conspiracy theorists faces. I'll delve into it soon on OKC Central

Rover, the answer is long and complicated - and should put a smile on conspiracy theorists faces. I'll delve into it soon on OKC Central

General Motors did it. It is not a conspiracy theory if it really happened.

http://www.lovearth.net/gmdeliberatelydestroyed.htm

Is there a Okc transit meeting next week?

General Motors did it. It is not a conspiracy theory if it really happened.

http://www.lovearth.net/gmdeliberatelydestroyed.htm

I'll be presenting factual information related to Oklahoma City.

I'll be presenting factual information related to Oklahoma City.

Cool. I look forward to it.

It appears Jacksonville has made a little known pitch for a street car system downtown. I live here and never heard of it until tonight. They have some pretty good reference material available on-line. Here is a sample.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-aug-what-a-real-transit-rail-system-looks-like-the-station

Kerry: This is the type of first rate common sense approach that I pray that the folks contracted to do the station hub study understand and will base thier recommendations on. To do otherwise will be to permanantly doom the system to failure and begin to siphon off potential development gains with losses that will never sleep. We cannot afford not to replace the lost network of rail that was once in OKC; and we also cannot afford to do it incorrectly. The systen must function according to the need for mobility, sans auto taking real people real places, not to parking lots. Thank you a million times for posting this here.

Thank OKC@heart. These three sentences really stuck a chord with me.


In fact, for most Americans, the only images they have of passenger rail systems, and subways in particular, are Amtrak, the New York Metro, the San Francisco BART, and maybe some of the system in Chicago. Not a very inspiring bunch. However, most of the rest of the developed countries have quite wonderful passenger rail networks. They are clean, efficient, cheap, run on time, have as many as 20 or even 25 trains an hour (one every three minutes) during peak periods, and everybody from all income levels uses them. This is not a utopian fantasy, it is normal life for most people -- which they take for granted along with other modern conveniences like clean running water and working sewage systems.

For fun, go to Google Earth and take a look at Zurich, Switzerland. When the Earth rotates to Zurich just zoom in. You will be right on top of the main train station. Take a look at the local street cars between the station and the river (on the east side of the building). There is no reason why a system in OKC couldn't be just as busy someday. At 2,500 feet there are 6 street cars in view. Population served by their streetcar system - about 380,000.

I've spent time in Zurich. Can't really compare Zurich and OKC.