Road the streetcar for the very first time this weekend, here was my experience.

I was staying at the Omni this weekend, very nice. 17th floor facing South, great view of the park and South OKC. Also as a train enthusiast plenty of train action all day and night.

I believe weekends are free right now, and then December is free a lot, but we parked in the convention garage since we were staying in the Omni and had that ticket as which counted as a 24-hour pass for 2.

We got on at the Scissortail stop, we had pulled up the real time map and wait for it to get to the Paycom stop on Reno before we left the lobby of the Omni, pretty good timing as it was cold this weekend.

At the stop there was an older couple who was completely new to the streetcar. Having done some research I helped her decide to just get on the streetcar after since it was just doing the Bricktown loop. she didn't want to ride it for 45 minutes or so to do the whole downtown loop. Also of note the naming seems to be confusing for people. This lady kept telling me well I want to stay downtown, I could tell in her mind downtown and Bricktown are the same thing.

After getting on we sat down in the middle. Not sure if this was a mistake as it seems this is where the homeless congregate, we were almost immediately asked for money which was very off-putting to me. I hate the thought that a tourist is having that experience in my city.

From the scissortail stop the streetcar operator basically blew by every stop till we got to the transit center, only stopping because it was requested. From there we again zoomed past all stops except one that was close to the light, and I think that's the only reason we sat there for any length of time.

Next someone requested a stop for the second one in automobile alley, simply called automobile alley. It seemed like this was the first stop there were people both getting on and getting off.

Next we zoomed past the next couple of stops but stopped without a request at the Dewey Ave stop, this is the one in my mind that's SSM. At this stop there were a bunch of people got on and we also did a streetcar operator change here. This took every bit of 8 minutes of waiting.

The next couple of stops seemed the most like what I'm used to when I've traveled to a major city, several people got on and off and the next 2 stops Midtown and 10th street respectively.

There was a solo lady that then also got on a law school and immediately off at the memorial. i'm going to go out on a limb based on the speakerphone conversation she was having and say she only road it because it was cold cause that's what she was telling the other person on the line. but i could see had the weather been warmer people getting off at the memorial.

from there we zoomed past all the stops till we got to that first Bricktown/Amtrak stop, various people got on and off at 3 of 5 Bricktown stops (the 2 on Sheridan and 2 on Reno probably could be combined)

we then zoomed past the one at the arena and we requested to get off where we got on at the scissortail, although there were people getting on and off there as well

So from my experience on a cold and drizzly Saturday it seems as though people are really trying to move between Brickown, the Park/Paycom/Omni, Automobile Alley, and then Midtown/SSM area. It seems like most other stops besides the Library (which no one got off of but is unique) and the Memorial are the best stops. The rest kind of seems like unnecessary fluff.

This makes a lot of sense to me after riding it as these are 3-4 different areas are separated from themselves, but yet too close to drive many times.

Last thing I'll say here is other than riding it for something to do, we tried numerous times to take it to go out to eat, and every single time it was easier to walk. Here is my example for what we tried to do for brunch. We wanted to try Tellers. According to google maps it was an 11 minute walk straight down Robinson. If we wanted to take the streetcar it was a 2 minute walk to the Scissortail stop. Then a 5 minute ride to the library stop. Then a 4 minute walk from the Library to Tellers, for a grand total of also 11 minutes. Now that's only if the streetcar is waiting on me, which it isn't. I'd at least factor 5 minutes. Since no matter what we'd have to walk in the cold drizzle, there is zero change I'm relying on the streetcar.

So in my mind the only way I'm using it is if I'm on one side of the system and want to get to the other. Bricktown to Auto Alley? Sure. But trying to go anywhere in between I don't find helpful.

With that in mind I'm not looking to dump on the streetcar. Honestly I rode it because we wanted something to do and a different way to view the city and I do like rail. But it's hard for me not see what all the detractors have said all along. I can promise you that the streetcar is useful to people out there right now that don't use it and won't give it a fair shot, but I'm not sure how you educate them. Maybe if they did a campaign focus on those 3-4 areas I mentioned and how it could be better used between those instead of a once stop shop for all your travel needs. I see myself only ever using the Bricktown loop in the future. Typically when we go to Auto Alley we are already in that area parked, so not sure it would net me much unless I was needing to get to Bricktown.

^^^^^^^
I've been saying this for a while, but in my opinion the "fix" - although "fine tuning" might be a more apt description - is to add a TINY bit of new track in two areas, both on Robinson:


One block of track between 11th and 10th, creating a natural cutoff point to skip the bulk of the downtown loop
and
One block (well, really two because it is a superbock) between Sheridan and Reno

By doing this you've created three complete, self-contained loops:


A Bricktown/Arena/CC/Scissortail loop
Midtown/Automobile Alley circulator
North-south loop that largely runs on Broadway and Robinson, from Omni/CC/Scissortail north to Automobile Alley/Midtown

By doing this you could then set up one or two pieces of equipment to run each loop, and then if you so choose you could also set up a one or two to run the entire loop. I think you would see immediate uptick in ridership if folks knew they could make it to and from each zone quickly, and if they needed to transfer to one of the other loops they would be guaranteed to see a train more reliably.

Here's a crude graphic of what I'm suggesting, with proposed new track in red:

18481

^^^^^^^
i've been saying this for a while, but in my opinion the "fix" - although "fine tuning" might be a more apt description - is to add a tiny bit of new track in two areas, both on robinson:


one block of track between 11th and 10th, creating a natural cutoff point to skip the bulk of the downtown loop
and
one block (well, really two because it is a superbock) between sheridan and reno

by doing this you've created three complete, self-contained loops:


a bricktown/arena/cc/scissortail loop
midtown circulator
north-south loop that largely runs on broadway and robinson, from omni/cc/scissortail north to automobile alley/midtown

by doing this you could then set up one or two pieces of equipment to run each loop, and then if you so choose you could also set up a one or two to run the entire loop. I think you would see immediate uptick in ridership if folks knew they could make it to and from each zone quickly, and if they needed to transfer to one of the other loops they would be guaranteed to see a train more reliably.

Here's a crude graphic of what i'm suggesting, with proposed new track in red:

18481

yassss

^^^^^^^
I've been saying this for a while, but in my opinion the "fix" - although "fine tuning" might be a more apt description - is to add a TINY bit of new track in two areas, both on Robinson:


One block of track between 11th and 10th, creating a natural cutoff point to skip the bulk of the downtown loop
and
One block (well, really two because it is a superbock) between Sheridan and Reno

By doing this you've created three complete, self-contained loops:


A Bricktown/Arena/CC/Scissortail loop
Midtown circulator
North-south loop that largely runs on Broadway and Robinson, from Omni/CC/Scissortail north to Automobile Alley/Midtown

By doing this you could then set up one or two pieces of equipment to run each loop, and then if you so choose you could also set up a one or two to run the entire loop. I think you would see immediate uptick in ridership if folks knew they could make it to and from each zone quickly, and if they needed to transfer to one of the other loops they would be guaranteed to see a train more reliably.

Here's a crude graphic of what I'm suggesting, with proposed new track in red:

18481

I hadn’t thought about it like that, but I think you are absolutely on to something. It sounds like the zones/regions is real, and others have got to be looking at it similar. I think you’re right if people knew about these “express loop” they’d get used a lot more like I imagine the Bricktown loop does.

I sure hope someone that has say sees your map cause after riding it this weekend I think it just needs tweaking like you said. It could be better.

^^^^^^^
I've been saying this for a while, but in my opinion the "fix" - although "fine tuning" might be a more apt description - is to add a TINY bit of new track in two areas, both on Robinson:


One block of track between 11th and 10th, creating a natural cutoff point to skip the bulk of the downtown loop
and
One block (well, really two because it is a superbock) between Sheridan and Reno

By doing this you've created three complete, self-contained loops:


A Bricktown/Arena/CC/Scissortail loop
Midtown circulator
North-south loop that largely runs on Broadway and Robinson, from Omni/CC/Scissortail north to Automobile Alley/Midtown

By doing this you could then set up one or two pieces of equipment to run each loop, and then if you so choose you could also set up a one or two to run the entire loop. I think you would see immediate uptick in ridership if folks knew they could make it to and from each zone quickly, and if they needed to transfer to one of the other loops they would be guaranteed to see a train more reliably.

Here's a crude graphic of what I'm suggesting, with proposed new track in red:

18481

also making it Free .. fully paid for by sponsors (even though embark won't allow this)

With the way streetcars and interurbans existed in central Oklahoma during the first half of the 20th century, the districts in inner Oklahoma City are set up ideally for a fleshed out streetcar system favoring circulators with longer lines connecting the districts.

Ironically, the blueprints for having an ideal network were drawn out before statehood and the remnants of it are still obvious today with how the oldest parts of the city are laid out. The hard part is just getting everyone else to buy into it.

also making it Free .. fully paid for by sponsors (even though embark won't allow this)

Totally agree. I've talked with many people since I've rode and their most common comment was they'd like to try it when it's free because they don't know what to expect. I've told them all that lucky enough, now is the perfect time since they are going fare free for most of December.

^^^^^^^
I've been saying this for a while, but in my opinion the "fix" - although "fine tuning" might be a more apt description - is to add a TINY bit of new track in two areas, both on Robinson:


One block of track between 11th and 10th, creating a natural cutoff point to skip the bulk of the downtown loop
and
One block (well, really two because it is a superbock) between Sheridan and Reno

By doing this you've created three complete, self-contained loops:


A Bricktown/Arena/CC/Scissortail loop
Midtown/Automobile Alley circulator
North-south loop that largely runs on Broadway and Robinson, from Omni/CC/Scissortail north to Automobile Alley/Midtown

By doing this you could then set up one or two pieces of equipment to run each loop, and then if you so choose you could also set up a one or two to run the entire loop. I think you would see immediate uptick in ridership if folks knew they could make it to and from each zone quickly, and if they needed to transfer to one of the other loops they would be guaranteed to see a train more reliably.

Here's a crude graphic of what I'm suggesting, with proposed new track in red:

18481

until we fix the system with dual track spines on Sheridan and Robinson/Broadway, this is a wonderful fix. Care to share it with the RTA and the city transportation office? I'm not sure it would even cost much to add the track (and given the money the fairgrounds got, there should be leftover money from MAPS III or IV to cover it).

^^^^^^^
I've been saying this for a while, but in my opinion the "fix" - although "fine tuning" might be a more apt description - is to add a TINY bit of new track in two areas, both on Robinson:


One block of track between 11th and 10th, creating a natural cutoff point to skip the bulk of the downtown loop
and
One block (well, really two because it is a superbock) between Sheridan and Reno

By doing this you've created three complete, self-contained loops:


A Bricktown/Arena/CC/Scissortail loop
Midtown/Automobile Alley circulator
North-south loop that largely runs on Broadway and Robinson, from Omni/CC/Scissortail north to Automobile Alley/Midtown

By doing this you could then set up one or two pieces of equipment to run each loop, and then if you so choose you could also set up a one or two to run the entire loop. I think you would see immediate uptick in ridership if folks knew they could make it to and from each zone quickly, and if they needed to transfer to one of the other loops they would be guaranteed to see a train more reliably.

Here's a crude graphic of what I'm suggesting, with proposed new track in red:

18481

Well done.

Thanks…just realizing that in that post I mentioned “skip the bulk of the downtown loop” when what I really meant was “skip the MIDTOWN loop.” I mean, in many ways it’s the same thing, but I wanted to clarify. I’ll post something soon that illustrates each loop individually, but my point is that I think for (relatively) little additional expense (relative to the original project cost) the City could tweak what we already have and make it far more intuitive and functional.

Also, to be clear I *have* shared this idea with some folks who have influence, and it has been received well when I’ve done so. At the end of the day it would still cost a lot of money (I’m guessing $5M-$10M) and there’s no immediately obvious source of funding, so for the time being it’s just an idea.

That said, if the arena proposition passes it COULD be the perfect time to take on a fine-tuning like this in conjunction with whatever happens to that stretch between Sheridan and Robinson.

For the record I’m a streetcar annual pass holder, one who lives downtown and works downtown. I’ve given lots of thought to this for the past five years, often while on the street car itself. I do believe it would be a game-changer that could lead to more daily riders right away.

Couldn't agree more. Amazing what 3 total blocks added would do to the system, how did we miss that in the initial development?

The city "found" MAPS III money remaining for the fairgrounds - IMO that should have been made available for the streetcar - I think/hope they could probably also find funds in MAPS IV to implement this "easy" but very useful fix.

I'd argue we should also add a revenue stop (funds available) along the Hudson side of Scissortail Park. We woulnd't necessarily need to dual track it yet but would it make an improvement to access to the lower portions of the park while we develop expansion plans?

There is a bit of track that already exists that could bypass BrickTown at Gaylord, correct?

^^^^^^^^^
That’s correct. There’s also a generally-unused cutoff track on 5th between Robinson and Broadway. The one you mention seems close (and in reality IS close) to the Robinson extension I’m proposing, but I don’t think using it instead would accomplish the same thing. In true Bo and Luke Duke fashion I’m straightening the curves.

It might be better now, but right after it opened. I was downtown with my family and in-laws and was trying to get the tickets prior to the train coming. It was such a PITA system and I just about missed the train it took so long to buy 5 tickets. Also the machines would take your money even on free days and don't tell you kids are free.

I really don't mind paying for public transit, but the actual process of paying for public transit everywhere is terrible. Even in Korea, where the subway system is amazing, buying tickets is terrible, only think in the whole country that requires cash.

It might be better now, but right after it opened. I was downtown with my family and in-laws and was trying to get the tickets prior to the train coming. It was such a PITA system and I just about missed the train it took so long to buy 5 tickets. Also the machines would take your money even on free days and don't tell you kids are free.

I really don't mind paying for public transit, but the actual process of paying for public transit everywhere is terrible. Even in Korea, where the subway system is amazing, buying tickets is terrible, only think in the whole country that requires cash.

Paying for public transit in Argentina is amazing. You get a SUBE card, you put money on the card and you touch pay the card when you travel. It blew the hell out of everywhere I traveled in Europe. If you swipe the subway soany times in a month the rest of the rides in that month come at a reduced rate.

I think they even can now use NFC with their phone and can reload their account online.

It might be better now, but right after it opened. I was downtown with my family and in-laws and was trying to get the tickets prior to the train coming. It was such a PITA system and I just about missed the train it took so long to buy 5 tickets. Also the machines would take your money even on free days and don't tell you kids are free.

I really don't mind paying for public transit, but the actual process of paying for public transit everywhere is terrible. Even in Korea, where the subway system is amazing, buying tickets is terrible, only think in the whole country that requires cash.

When I lived in DC, I just setup a card to autoload and you just tapped it to use transit, and that was over a decade ago now. I think you can just tap your phone at this point. And they even support tapping your watch. That seems pretty easy.

I have only used other country metros in Rome and London - I don't think I had any issues with them that I recall. I am pretty sure they both support tap-to-pay as well.

When I lived in DC, I just setup a card to autoload and you just tapped it to use transit, and that was over a decade ago now. I think you can just tap your phone at this point. And they even support tapping your watch. That seems pretty easy.

I have only used other country metros in Rome and London - I don't think I had any issues with them that I recall. I am pretty sure they both support tap-to-pay as well.

there is a phone app in okc it is super easy to use

Last thing I'll say here is other than riding it for something to do, we tried numerous times to take it to go out to eat, and every single time it was easier to walk. Here is my example for what we tried to do for brunch. We wanted to try Tellers. According to google maps it was an 11 minute walk straight down Robinson. If we wanted to take the streetcar it was a 2 minute walk to the Scissortail stop. Then a 5 minute ride to the library stop. Then a 4 minute walk from the Library to Tellers, for a grand total of also 11 minutes. Now that's only if the streetcar is waiting on me, which it isn't. I'd at least factor 5 minutes. Since no matter what we'd have to walk in the cold drizzle, there is zero change I'm relying on the streetcar.

This pretty much sums up my feelings about it. Lived at the Park Harvey for about 10 years which is one block from two different stops and never used it once (obviously it wasn't operational that entire time). Any time I would consider using it I would want to use it to go to midtown or occasionally bricktown. I could walk to midtown in 15 minutes but if I were to catch the streetcar at the exact right time I would still be looking at 18 minutes between walking to the stops and the 12 minute ride on the streetcar. If you factor in the alternative of taking a scooter you are looking at like 5 minutes. The only scenario it would ever make sense to take it is if it was cold and raining.

As it's laid out now it takes way too long to get anywhere compared to walking. I think they originally envisioned this as something that downtown/St. Anthony workers could take to lunch around the city for example but it takes entirely too long for that to be viable. If you only have an hour lunch break and want to go across town where it is too far to walk you are going to have to spend half of it on the streetcar trying to get to a place to eat and back. It doesn't seem to really have any practical real world use case for people who work and live downtown as it stands. If they really want to increase ridership they need to start expanding outwards towards neighborhoods so it could be a commuting transit option. Right now it just seems to be a novelty for tourists.

Not sure how much this would help with the current implementation and how realistic it is but not having a dedicated lane and having to come to a full stop at every turn light is a killer. I suspect it would run ~20% faster and on more regular intervals if it only came to a stop at dedicated stations.

It might be better now, but right after it opened. I was downtown with my family and in-laws and was trying to get the tickets prior to the train coming. It was such a PITA system and I just about missed the train it took so long to buy 5 tickets. Also the machines would take your money even on free days and don't tell you kids are free.

I really don't mind paying for public transit, but the actual process of paying for public transit everywhere is terrible. Even in Korea, where the subway system is amazing, buying tickets is terrible, only think in the whole country that requires cash.

You realize you can just buy a T money card and load money onto it. They sell them at convenience stores or you can get it at the airport. That way you don’t need to buy tickets at every station. Just tap and go. The same as the octopus card in Hong Kong or the passmo in Tokyo. I do kinda wish okc implemented something similar for busses but I don’t think there is any way the city has funds for it.

...
Not sure how much this would help with the current implementation and how realistic it is but not having a dedicated lane and having to come to a full stop at every turn light is a killer. I suspect it would run ~20% faster and on more regular intervals if it only came to a stop at dedicated stations.

Good post, and yep, sums it up quite nicely. However, I thought all streetcars had signal prioritization so they'd change any upcoming red lights to green so they could fly (well, crawl) through them.

Good post, and yep, sums it up quite nicely. However, I thought all streetcars had signal prioritization so they'd change any upcoming red lights to green so they could fly (well, crawl) through them.

Not all of the lights have signal priority. I think the justification is that one streetcar will go "too fast" through the system and potentially catch up to another streetcar, which results in them not being spaced out appropriately on the loops.

Does anyone have any insight as to the likelihood that there will be any improvements/any additional expenditure to the streetcar system in the near to medium term? As much as I would love to see it happen there seems to be very little appetite any time soon (especially given the general lack of interest/use by the "general" population of the city), but I would love to be wrong (and do enjoy day dreaming about what could be done to make it a more useful tool for the city).

^^^Me too

Like I have said, put four passing sidings in at four stops, and run the trolley in both directions. And make the bricktown loop seperate from the city loop.

Like I have said, put four passing sidings in at four stops, and run the trolley in both directions. And make the bricktown loop seperate from the city loop.

run it the wrong way down streets ..

congrats the worst idea ever

Looking at Omaha’s streetcar map they have a downtown circulator and then a couplet connecting downtown to their midtown area along a commercial corrdor. This would be like if OKC extended the streetcar down Classen to connect downtown to near-north areas toward Western Ave and Penn Square/ OAK

https://www.railwayage.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/OmahaStreetcarMap.png

Is the streetcar doing OK business? Every time I'm downtown and see one pass by, I can count the number of passengers on one hand.

Is Omaha's up and running?

Is Omaha's up and running?

They just started moving utilities under the street and it won't be ready to go until mid-2026 at best. They did finalize the route, they added a shot loop at the east end since they are sticking the maintenance facility under the interstate there.

https://indd.adobe.com/content/2/dd266054-c43b-4f77-ae4d-9bd225d823c8/3400000020440/package/cwl9/publication-web-resources/image/OSCA-Route%2BMap%2BStops%2BParking_FINAL.png

You realize you can just buy a T money card and load money onto it. They sell them at convenience stores or you can get it at the airport. That way you don’t need to buy tickets at every station. Just tap and go. The same as the octopus card in Hong Kong or the passmo in Tokyo. I do kinda wish okc implemented something similar for busses but I don’t think there is any way the city has funds for it.

Yeah, that's the problem. You have to buy them at a convenience store, not on the subway platform. In the subway station it cash or nothing. They at least sold the ride all day passes, but still had to use cash for it.

All payment systems are fine for locals or once you figure them out, but at this point I should just be able to tap my CC to pay a fare, not get a special app, go to a convenience store, or carry correct change to buy public transit fares.

Looking at Omaha’s streetcar map they have a downtown circulator and then a couplet connecting downtown to their midtown area along a commercial corrdor. This would be like if OKC extended the streetcar down Classen to connect downtown to near-north areas toward Western Ave and Penn Square/ OAK

https://www.railwayage.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/OmahaStreetcarMap.png

That was the point of the Rapid BRT.

Yeah, that's the problem. You have to buy them at a convenience store, not on the subway platform. In the subway station it cash or nothing. They at least sold the ride all day passes, but still had to use cash for it.

All payment systems are fine for locals or once you figure them out, but at this point I should just be able to tap my CC to pay a fare, not get a special app, go to a convenience store, or carry correct change to buy public transit fares.

You can also buy them at the subway station too and refill them there as well. I lived in Asia for 7 years and was in Hong Kong at least once a month. And probably in Seoul every other month. There is basically a place where you can ask the attendant and they’ll sell one to you. Same for the pass I card in Tokyo.

Same for the multiple different subway cards in China “if you just say shenzhen tong” or whatever city you’re at with tong at the end they’ll sell you a card for like $5. In all of these places it’s the same you can either add money at subway station using one of those kiosks, ask the attendant and give them money or go to a convenience store. The most efficient way is a convenience store because some of the subway stations are way too busy. All of these options are easy and fine for anyone even tourists because I don’t know how many times I’ve traveled “and worked” in multiple cities in Asia and it’s all the same setup with multiple places to buy and refill subway cards. In fact I still have most of those subway cards and when I go back I refill them at the airport and hop on the subway to go to my hotel.

Went to the Boston game Jan 2nd took the street car to go eat in Bricktown Ballpark stop. Had dinner and went back around 6 to take the street car to the game. My friend has walking issues so street car is easier. The times on the app and what was on the screen was way off. The screen said 22 minutes. Open the app to find where the streetcar was and after about 5 minutes finally figured how to pull up a map. The older version on the app pulled up right away. There were 2 street cars around the arena and the other one was in automobile alley. So even my friend was like screw this let's just walk. I have never understood on Thunder game nights why they don't have a bricktown loop going from 5-10. I heard a couple saying lets just walk to their bricktown hotel cause they didn't want to ride the streetcar all the way around. It has to get better.

There was someone checking fares on the street car at 9pm after the Thunder game Sunday night Arena stop. 2-4-24. Only the second time I have been asked. The ones that didn't pay had cash out but then he got off at the scissortail park and they didn't have to pay.

5pm Friday Feb 23 night of Thunder game same guy was getting on the streetcar at the Scissortail Park stop. Checked for tickets and than got off an waved to the drive too go. Is this happening more often or I have just hit him at the right time twice this month?