Oklahoma City is a city that really might as well be starting from scratch when it comes to public transportation. It wasn’t that long ago that we were celebrating the arrival of bus service on Sunday’s and service running after the streetlights came on. I want to be optimistic because I love taking public transportation, especially rail form, but it’s hard to maintain that optimism when confronted with the reality that comes with over half-a-century worth of general neglect for public transportation systems here and across North America.

I’m just now entering my late 20’s so I have a decent chance of seeing the culture change in my lifetime and given where the general interest for all things public transportation has been over the years, it’s hard not to feel like it’s a tremendous success to even have tracks in the ground or have people willingly ride it to help support growth. Still, the vision has to go far beyond that and I’m sure these conversations are happening quite a lot behind the scenes, but it certainly is easy to get frustrated and lose patience given how staggering the task is right now.

There will be a BRT stop not far from my house, so once that’s up and running I plan on using that to go basically anywhere I need to on NW Expy, Classen, Uptown/Downtown and everywhere in between despite having a car and driving being far more convenient, and that includes relying on the streetcar once I get to that part of the city. I hope it all works in the long run but yeah, you really can’t help but feel it’s going to be a very uphill battle before things really get into a groove.

as long as everyone that can afford a car has one and driving is more convenient and quicker then public transit it will always be niche in OKC neither of those things are changing any time soon ..

^^^
True Story.

as long as everyone that can afford a car has one and driving is more convenient and quicker then public transit it will always be niche in OKC neither of those things are changing any time soon ..

I think you basically summarized what I said? I’m not sure but yes, that plays into what I was getting at. Oklahoma City has really only put genuine effort into having a transportation system in place for roughly a decade, maybe two decades if you include the planning processes and so on. Still, even with all that, so much of what we see happening today with public transportation is merely getting the bones in place for a structure that is years away.

Car affordability and ownership might affect whether a system needs 80 buses or 280 buses but the greatest cities in the world for public transportation also have hundreds of thousands - maybe even millions - of people that own cars and prefer to drive. Sure, if cars start to become unaffordable, public transit will see an increase in ridership across the board, but as a baseline car availability is not a dagger to the heart of public transit and in many cases, they compliment each other very well. The main issue with cars for public transit is when municipalities by and large gut funding for bus, rail, bike, and pedestrian systems in favor of investing a large amount towards car systems, but that’s a fault of policy making, not car affordability or ownership.

“Convenient” is the key word you used I think. The transportation system in place still isn’t very convenient (connected, expansive network, multiple modes, short headways, etc) given how massive Oklahoma City is in land area and until that improves, any public transportation system that Oklahoma City implements is going to be underutilized for awhile. Even if people still have cars or can drive places quicker, that won’t impact the system greatly if it’s a well designed, convenient system that ordinary people can easily get on without it feeling like a burden. It’s improving, which is the most important part, but given the decades of it barely even registering in the minds of society at large here, no public transportation system is going to open up and be popular or even be on most people’s radar immediately. It’s going to take years of it making remedial but vital improvements and as residents and visitors alike discover it’s a convenient, connected alternative, that’s when it will start to be a more alluring option.

Frankly, the biggest issue I’ve found locally is the same one that has existed for decades, which is that public transportation is for poor people and everyone thinks they’re above riding to a destination with poor people. Outdated perceptions about who public transit is for along with inconvenience are going to be the biggest barriers to having an efficient and worthwhile network.

Okc and the metro could spend 1 billion on transit tomorrow and driving a car would still be faster for 99% of travel This would continue to be used.

The only places in this country where transit “works” for those with the option of car travel are places where it is time/money competitive as an option. Okc won’t be in that that place in my lifetime and maybe not in my children’s lifetime.

This won’t change in this city until this is massive population change and or land become much much more valuable

The OKC streetcar IMO was a good idea--most cities with successful ridership operations like Kansas City free and Omaha will be free.

Oklahoma City's streetcar (Twice the miles of KC) has room to experiment with no fares--which has been done however it's confusing.

MAKE IT TOTALLY FREE since it's operating with few passengers anyway--give something back to the citizens.

Oklahoma City ($135 million - 4.86-miles - 2018)
https://www.urbanrail.net/am/oklahoma/oklahoma-city-streetcar-map.png

Kansas City ($102 million - 2.2 miles - 2014) - The KC Streetcar is free to ride, which means there is no fare to ride on the streetcar as it travels the 2 miles through the heart of downtown.
http://media.kansascity.com/livegraphics/2016/streetcar/streetcar-map.small.jpg

Omaha (proposed $360 million - 3 miles - 2026) Citizens will be asked to approve $360 million bond to finance the project. Omaha streetcar will be free.
https://unothegateway.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/5584e05726458.image_.jpg

2020 Demographics:

Kansas City - 2.2 million/508,394
Oklahoma City - 1.4 million/687,725
Omaha - 1.0 million/487,300

The route sucks. For me, that’s been the biggest issue and why I can’t use it, despite really wanting to regularly.

The route sucks and, based on prior experiences, I don't trust the times. Walking is faster in most cases, even if you're right on the route and it goes the right direction. It's just really poorly designed... as was pointed out when it was happening.

Okc and the metro could spend 1 billion on transit tomorrow and driving a car would still be faster for 99% of travel This would continue to be used.

The only places in this country where transit “works” for those with the option of car travel are places where it is time/money competitive as an option. Okc won’t be in that that place in my lifetime and maybe not in my children’s lifetime.

This won’t change in this city until this is massive population change and or land become much much more valuable

I’m not sure if you’re trying to disagree with me, if you’re just trying to argue for the sake of being contrarian, or if I’m misunderstanding your tone because we’re largely saying the same thing, you’re just emphasizing the now whereas I’m talking about years and decades ahead. I’ve acknowledged that it’s not going to change soon and that the city has spent years neglecting these systems in favor of spending the majority of funding on building our city around convenience of car travel. In city’s like Oklahoma City, cars are dominant because everything has been built for them to be the most convenient form of transport. I don’t think it’s even that they’re faster like you emphasize, but there’s just not an alternative to readily traversing the city in even a comparable amount of time. Also, parking here is very simple. As the city builds more and more and those spots no longer exist or exist in much smaller numbers, that’s another area where car might be faster, but it’s going to be less convenient than a tram or commuter rail dropping you off in the middle of the city.

Still, that doesn’t change overnight. Forget 1 billion, we could spend 1 trillion on transportation systems tomorrow, everyone would still drive a car because that is how it has been designed for years and how our culture has been taught to think about it for the last 60-70 years now and no amount of money is going to change that today, tomorrow, next month, next year, or next decade. It’s something that will happen over time as the systems hopefully improve/expand and become more convenient than what they are today, not something we just throw a bunch of money at and expect results tomorrow. Throwing tons of money trying to fix a problem that has existed for generations without addressing the actual issues or solving the actual problems is going to be a waste no matter what subject we’re talking about.

The route sucks and, based on prior experiences, I don't trust the times. Walking is faster in most cases, even if you're right on the route and it goes the right direction. It's just really poorly designed... as was pointed out when it was happening.

This is my exact conclusion when it comes to taking it. The times that I do take it, I do it just for the ride. Otherwise, I can walk to wherever and be there much faster.

I also want to add that I don't own a car and take public transportation regularly, including trains/rail in DFW, Amtrak, etc. I don't expect rail/streetcar to be as fast as cars in many cases, but it has to be predictable and a reasonable form of transportation. If I moved to OKC, I would rely on public transportation. There are a lot of streetcars in a lot of cities that I would take regularly. OKC's streetcar is not one of them. I've tried. It just doesn't work.

The OKC streetcar IMO was a good idea--most cities with successful ridership operations like Kansas City free and Omaha will be free.

Oklahoma City's streetcar (Twice the miles of KC) has room to experiment with no fares--which has been done however it's confusing.

MAKE IT TOTALLY FREE since it's operating with few passengers anyway--give something back to the citizens.

Oklahoma City ($135 million - 4.86-miles - 2018)
https://www.urbanrail.net/am/oklahoma/oklahoma-city-streetcar-map.png

Kansas City ($102 million - 2.2 miles - 2014) - The KC Streetcar is free to ride, which means there is no fare to ride on the streetcar as it travels the 2 miles through the heart of downtown.
http://media.kansascity.com/livegraphics/2016/streetcar/streetcar-map.small.jpg

Omaha (proposed $360 million - 3 miles - 2026) Citizens will be asked to approve $360 million bond to finance the project. Omaha streetcar will be free.
https://unothegateway.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/5584e05726458.image_.jpg

2020 Demographics:

Kansas City - 2.2 million/508,394
Oklahoma City - 1.4 million/687,725
Omaha - 1.0 million/487,300




the OKC streetcar should 100% be free ... unfortuntatually the powers that be in transit in OKC don't want it to be free .. (except for a small amount of seasonable promotions (even if the entire system was sponsored to be free they would decline)

It's pretty much free now anyway, anytime we've ridden it over the past year, not a single soul has asked for proof of fare

It's pretty much free now anyway, anytime we've ridden it over the past year, not a single soul has asked for proof of fare

Yes, but the barrier is still there for new riders. Just picture yourself as brand new to the concept and seeing the ticket kiosk and you would automatically assume the fare is required, which it technically is.

You are correct though, the seasoned riders know that you essentially don't need a fare to ride.

Yes, but the barrier is still there for new riders. Just picture yourself as brand new to the concept and seeing the ticket kiosk and you would automatically assume the fare is required, which it technically is.

You are correct though, the seasoned riders know that you essentially don't need a fare to ride.

So there is no honor supporting the honor system?

I have been asked once to show a fare.

The OKC Streetcar was an uphill battle from the beginning. From an unqualified Citizen Oversight Board to Larry Nichols trying to claim that the streetcars would cause the Colcord to collapse. Honestly, it is a thousand wonders it got built at all. Someone could write a book about all the mistakes made, and still being made, and sadly it was all foretold by a number of people on this site in real-time as it was happening.

T From an unqualified Citizen Oversight Board .

in what way ??

Now there's a name and account I have not seen in a very long time.

in what way ??

If memory serves, none of the Transit Subcommittee had any Transit, or even general Urban Planning experience which limited their ability to question or challenge recommendations from the consultants. They just said, "That is how Portland did it", and everyone said okay.

That is why the OKC system was built as a couplet instead of a linear spine. They didn't even raise the point that Portland blocks are only 200' feet wide and have one-way streets while OKC blocks are 600' and we were transitioning to two-way streets at the time. In short, couplets were a bad idea for OKC, but here we are none the less.

So anyhow, it was all beaten to death years ago so the only discussion of any value is 1) How do you fix it, and 2) Is there any political or civic will to fix it?

It is without a doubt a failed project. A one way loop. Sort of like being at Frontier City. Yes, the KC trolley is 2 miles, buts it’s double track, and linear on it’s route. Who wants to ride around Bricktown, if that’s not where you’re going. Make the two loops separate, and run the trolley in both directions with passing sidings.

I don't know if "Failed" is the right word but it certainly could have been better. I think you are on to something with the seperate loop idea. The easiest/cheapest/fastest way to do that is have the downtown loop turn on the existing track on EKG. Second best way would be to add a block of track along Robinson between Sheridan and Reno. That would greatly reduce the headway on the Downtown loop and be competitive with a healthy person just walking it.

If memory serves, none of the Transit Subcommittee had any Transit, or even general Urban Planning experience which limited their ability to question or challenge recommendations from the consultants. They just said, "That is how Portland did it", and everyone said okay.

That is why the OKC system was built as a couplet instead of a linear spine. They didn't even raise the point that Portland blocks are only 200' feet wide and have one-way streets while OKC blocks are 600' and we were transitioning to two-way streets at the time. In short, couplets were a bad idea for OKC, but here we are none the less.

So anyhow, it was all beaten to death years ago so the only discussion of any value is 1) How do you fix it, and 2) Is there any political or civic will to fix it?


almost none of this is accurate

17801

17801

the OKC system was built how it was because of the political realities of where the system needed to go ... period .. that was not driven by the consultants ..

the OKC system was built how it was because of the political realities of where the system needed to go ... period .. that was not driven by the consultants ..

I'll give you this, there certainly were people who had influence over the system that shouldn't have simply because of who they were. The Transit Subcommittee should have told them to stay in their lane.

JTF, Welcome back and have a happy new year.

The biggest issue is that it doesn't go anywhere. Let's say instead it was bult double tracked and it went by OU Medical, The Capitol and the Zoo. People would actually ride because it goes somewhere. Whether it's near housing, jobs, or attractions. There are places that are too far to walk and they could have quicker frequencies. The city built a tourist attraction that looks good not viable public transportation. Even if they did an alternative of that had two lines on going from downtown to the capitol and another to just past midtown.

OU Medical, The Capitol and the Zoo. This would follow the same routes as the buses.

Welcome back JTF, we miss you.


the OKC system was built how it was because of the political realities of where the system needed to go ... period .. that was not driven by the consultants ..

Got to admit, this makes sense, especially since there doesn't seem to be any more credible explanation.

The biggest issue is that it doesn't go anywhere. Let's say instead it was bult double tracked and it went by OU Medical, The Capitol and the Zoo. People would actually ride because it goes somewhere. Whether it's near housing, jobs, or attractions. There are places that are too far to walk and they could have quicker frequencies. The city built a tourist attraction that looks good not viable public transportation. Even if they did an alternative of that had two lines on going from downtown to the capitol and another to just past midtown.

Would be better if it went more places but it goes from midtown to the arena and parks the problem for me and like someone recently pointed out is that it goes all the way around bricktown. If it's going from midtown to the park there is no need for me to ride it all around bricktown. Say your at Fassler hall and want to go to a Thunder game. Why take the Street car that is going to take you 20-25 minutes when you can drive it in 5 minutes. According to maps you can walk it in 24 minutes. A bit of a walk but for some people it's doable. Google maps say 18 minutes by transit to civic center than walking time for a total of 25 minutes. So to me that's part of the problem. It's quicker to walk or drive so what's the point of taking the street car? Even getting on a scooter will be quicker.

Than you always run into the issue, lucky I haven't, is someone blocking the streetcar. Than your stuck on the streetcar.

I know it's a street car and not really made for speed but if it were somewhat quicker it would help..

^ ^ ^ This is one reason I'm so glad to see JTF back. He taught me more about the Streetcar being a 'Novelty' than a mode of transit.

The biggest issue is that it doesn't go anywhere. Let's say instead it was bult double tracked and it went by OU Medical, The Capitol and the Zoo. People would actually ride because it goes somewhere. Whether it's near housing, jobs, or attractions. There are places that are too far to walk and they could have quicker frequencies. The city built a tourist attraction that looks good not viable public transportation. Even if they did an alternative of that had two lines on going from downtown to the capitol and another to just past midtown.

People were yelling this from the rooftops from the moment the loop route was proposed. It was never designed to be public transportation, it was designed to be an amusement park ride.

People were yelling this from the rooftops from the moment the loop route was proposed. It was never designed to be public transportation, it was designed to be an amusement park ride.

No, it was designed to be a real estate/business development tool.

I'll give you this, there certainly were people who had influence over the system that shouldn't have simply because of who they were. The Transit Subcommittee should have told them to stay in their lane.

I agree with the others… good to have you back posting jtf. It’s good to have you back speaking from fact not emotion.

The route sucks and, based on prior experiences, I don't trust the times. Walking is faster in most cases, even if you're right on the route and it goes the right direction. It's just really poorly designed... as was pointed out when it was happening.

It is also a pain to pay for it. Last time I paid for it, I missed the street car because the kiosk was so bad. Now I'll only ride when it's free, because like you said, I can walk faster.

Really street cars are the worst parts of buses mixed with the worst part of rail. I enjoy riding it in KC, but it still pretty slow, but it actually connects things together.

Another street car fail more me. Got on at 2:30 rode it to midtown went to the Garage Burger to watch the first half of the TCU/Michigan game than I was off to the thunder game. Thanks for the suggestion by the way garage was great to watch the game. Car was little more than half full if you go by the seats. Anyway around 4:45 I started to check to see how long it would talk me to get to the arena open the app and I only see one street car going at that is bricktown. Clicked on wait times and it says Downtown no Service. WHAT? Maybe a glitch. I check 5 pm same thing. So then about 5:15 I walked to the stop it's also showing no street cars on the map but it does say 15 minutes. At which point I just called an uber from the collective. I wasn't going to chance sitting there forever. When the uber got there the street car went by. I was like really Couldn't of been no more than 7 minutes not no 15. For a good 30 minutes might of even been longer the app was showing no service. How will you ever get people to ride it you can't trust it.

It is also a pain to pay for it. Last time I paid for it, I missed the street car because the kiosk was so bad. Now I'll only ride when it's free, because like you said, I can walk faster.

Really street cars are the worst parts of buses mixed with the worst part of rail. I enjoy riding it in KC, but it still pretty slow, but it actually connects things together.

Yep. I took it a few months ago, could barely see the screen in the sun, and it kept giving me an error. I think we wound up downloading the app and doing it that way (and of course the tickets weren't checked). I reported the error and they eventually got back to me saying they saw nothing wrong when they checked it out. The timing was also way, way off -- it wasn't counting down at all. Last time I went to take it we wound up driving instead because after waiting for 5 minutes it was stuck at 18 minutes away. For all the issues with route design, etc. I think at least having accurate wait time estimates and interval frequency would go a long way toward making it useful.

Two of things most annoying for me as a rider are the dwell time at the Dewey Ave stop, and stopping at every station even no one is getting on or off.

Neither make any sense and priortize people "that might want to ride" over people that actually are riding.

I assume it is being done to keep the vehicles spaced out, but to what end? All that ends up being accomplished is that everyone waits longer than they should to get to their destination.

There are three possible solutions to this problem.
1). Don't have streetcars stop unless someone wants on or off. If streetcars stack up then have the lead streetcar bypass people waiting to be picked up and let the trailing streetcar stop.

2). Shorten the route. The Bricktown leg of the Downtown line needs to removed. This will shorten the headways for everyone on the Downtown loop and those whose destination is Bricktown can transfer to the Bricktown loop or simply walk from Santa Fe.

3). Buy more streetcars.

One of things most noticable about the New Orleans system is that they are flooded with ride vehicles - sometimes with 2 or 3 running mere seconds apart.

To be fair, I rode the streetcar from 10th & Robinson to the Century Center stop on New Years Eve. It was on time, easy, and full. It wasn’t super fast, but faster than I could have walked.

I rode it on NYE from Scissortail to Dewey. It was free, full, and much better than walking all that way. Everyone was courteous and very excited. Loved every bit of it!

On NYE I parked at BassPro and rode to and from the arena starting at Joe Carter Ave. I truly believe that if the route had been extended just a bit further to have a platform adjacent to the BassPro parking lot the ridership would have a large increase. The parking lot is always packed with people then walking to other areas of Bricktown and DownTown. Anyone have an answers as to why this was not included? Hard to imagine it at least wasn't considered.

common point of the last two posts and what I and others have argued from day 1 that should have been the case here - the streetcar was full and functioned well with FREE fare. Larry pointed recently that we need to make it free until it's expanded and/or more transit comes into downtown and I couldn't agree more or say this again. Why have an empty system "charge" fare, stop at every empty stop, and dwell just to have a system? I know the underlying goal was initally for the streetcar to be a development catalyst, but the development is now there/done and it was a missed opportunity to not have a free system to encourage ridership in a city like OKC that last had rail transit 50+ years ago.

And give me a break about the argument "well, we can't have free streetcar because the buses aren't free". WFT? KC doesn't seem to have that issue and last I saw, OKC Streetcar was not part of Embark (it's not featured on Embark website, has it's own/system). Furthermore, DOKC could sponsor it (with dues from downtown businesses/landowners) to build ridership and encourage use. Combine this with the wonderful suggestions from Kerry (as has been said, welcome back fellow OG OKC poster); no-stops if no pax + redesign the "downtown to Midtown" route (eliminating Bricktown). Even better, have 3 routes: 1) the current full route, 2) a trimmed downtown-midtown route, and 3) downtown-bricktown route; run the full route during shoulder and late night periods.

Who do we need to get these ideas to? The streetcar isn't a failure but it is failing to live up as a viable transit option and this is not its fault but that of the operator/system. If it were free, had 3 routes, and didn't stop so much - it'd be a hit even in its current configuration. Then, we can fix the spine with dual track (my idea is Sheridan and Robinson (until it's one way then switch to Broadway) - then eventually expand it from these spines into OHC, Capital Hill, and Plaza/Asia District/ect. Start charging once critical mass of riders has been reached and/or when other transit modes are functional.

Kerry and Larry's ideas are a rather easy fix and 'honestly' should have been part of MAPS 4. But instead we'll have BRT-lite, with likely empty buses running a basically normal local route as the fare will be far above reason. (not against BRT but at least should have been done with capacity in mind).

common point of the last two posts and what I and others have argued from day 1 that should have been the case here - the streetcar was full and functioned well with FREE fare. Larry pointed recently that we need to make it free until it's expanded and/or more transit comes into downtown and I couldn't agree more or say this again. Why have an empty system "charge" fare, stop at every empty stop, and dwell just to have a system? I know the underlying goal was initally for the streetcar to be a development catalyst, but the development is now there/done and it was a missed opportunity to not have a free system to encourage ridership in a city like OKC that last had rail transit 50+ years ago.

And give me a break about the argument "well, we can't have free streetcar because the buses aren't free". WFT? KC doesn't seem to have that issue and last I saw, OKC Streetcar was not part of Embark (it's not featured on Embark website, has it's own/system). Furthermore, DOKC could sponsor it (with dues from downtown businesses/landowners) to build ridership and encourage use. Combine this with the wonderful suggestions from Kerry (as has been said, welcome back fellow OG OKC poster); no-stops if no pax + redesign the "downtown to Midtown" route (eliminating Bricktown). Even better, have 3 routes: 1) the current full route, 2) a trimmed downtown-midtown route, and 3) downtown-bricktown route; run the full route during shoulder and late night periods.

Who do we need to get these ideas to? The streetcar isn't a failure but it is failing to live up as a viable transit option and this is not its fault but that of the operator/system. If it were free, had 3 routes, and didn't stop so much - it'd be a hit even in its current configuration. Then, we can fix the spine with dual track (my idea is Sheridan and Robinson (until it's one way then switch to Broadway) - then eventually expand it from these spines into OHC, Capital Hill, and Plaza/Asia District/ect. Start charging once critical mass of riders has been reached and/or when other transit modes are functional.

Kerry and Larry's ideas are a rather easy fix and 'honestly' should have been part of MAPS 4. But instead we'll have BRT-lite, with likely empty buses running a basically normal local route as the fare will be far above reason. (not against BRT but at least should have been done with capacity in mind).

okc streetcar is part of embark and embark leadership is opposed to having the streetcar be free .. (even if it had sponsorships to be free) except for a few times a year

okc streetcar is part of embark and embark leadership is opposed to having the streetcar be free .. (even if it had sponsorships to be free) except for a few times a year

Embark obviously doesn't care too much or they would enforce the fare...

So there is no honor supporting the honor system?

No fare honor here.

I have several tokens purchased through the app. But they are designed that you 'activate' the token. So basically just always have a token ready to activate in the [rare] scenario you are asked to present a fare.

If they truly wanted to collect fares, an easy remedy would be to add expiration time onto purchased tokens. My tokens have gone unused for literal years.

The bus and the streetcar should be free. Fares only make up $2.1M of Embark's $41.4M operating budget (5%). $2M is nothing in comparison to what is gained by having a fare free system.

Absolutely agreed. Public transit should be considered a public service that is free at the point of consumption.

I do the same thing with having tokens in my phone. I’ve only been asked to present fare once, and I’ve been on it about a dozen times.

I do the same thing with having tokens in my phone. I’ve only been asked to present fare once, and I’ve been on it about a dozen times.

My push for the streetcar to be free for at least one full year will allow ridership to get familiar with established routes. It's not going to affect Embark bus system because both serve totally different functions and routes.

The system was designed to spur development along the routes. You want development--then make the system free since IMO it doesn't make sense to have the streetcars running with less than 15% capacity.

As Hot Rod mentioned, the system isn't a failure, however no matter what you do, there's always room for improvement. It's not going to hurt having to walk a block or two to get to a stop--we all could use the exercise.

I've lived outside of OK ever since the streetcar opened so I'm not well versed on it, but just read this on Lackmeyer's blog. I know ridership has been low but can someone give me a brief answer on what Steve is talking about here? What difference does the dual track thing make, and what did our city choose?


Do you think that the expansion of bus rapid transit to northeast OKC and Capitol Hill will limit future growth of the street car?

A: I suspect it is the failed design of the streetcar that will limit any future growth. Kansas City showed us, as we were designing our system, how linear dual tracks are the best approach to using streetcars as public transit. But our city fell for the urging of an out-of-state consultant to instead create the equivalent of an amusement park ride downtown. It would be great to see chunks of our system turned into dual tracks. But I don't know if the political will to spend more money to fix this past decision will exist to make it happen.

I've lived outside of OK ever since the streetcar opened so I'm not well versed on it, but just read this on Lackmeyer's blog. I know ridership has been low but can someone give me a brief answer on what Steve is talking about here? What difference does the dual track thing make, and what did our city choose?

our city choose a system that had to go certain places to be politically viable

steve doesn't really know what he is talking about the "out-of-state" consultant did NOT drive the process ... political reality did ..

the system was built with expansion in mind ... but the biggest single issue with it is the IT IS NOT FREE like it should be ..

Not knowing much about it, is the thinking that a dual track system would have allowed service in both directions and increased usability/convenience?

I do agree that the streetcar system is more valuable and likely to be used (and positively impact downtown traffic) if it was free.

Not knowing much about it, is the thinking that a dual track system would have allowed service in both directions and increased usability/convenience?

I do agree that the streetcar system is more valuable and likely to be used (and positively impact downtown traffic) if it was free.

I think so? So you don't have to take the loop to go the other way.

The KC streetcar is great. I loved it when I was there and their expansion project passed by a good amount. And it is free so I took it probably at least 3-4x/month.

I will say that I think OKC has better placement of the streetcar stops than KC does. Many of the stops in KC are immediately following an intersection. So light goes green, streetcar just exits the intersection and stops for riders while cars are behind, stopped for a green light. In OKC, the stops are mostly spaced away from the intersection a bit.

What Steve is referencing is each stop should have the option to take a streetcar in either direction. Instead, if you jump on the streetcar in Auto Alley, you have to ride the streetcar through Midtown and Downtown just to get to Bricktown which might take 30-45 minutes. So what might be a 5 minutes ride to get somewhere is a 40 minute ride to get back. A very impractical model. It's faster and more efficient to walk.

In realty, the Streetcar was not designed for OKC residents. It's not meant to replace a car and be someone's means to commute. its meant to be for out-of-towners staying at the Omni or First National to have a fun way to get around town.

In realty, the Streetcar was not designed for OKC residents. It's not meant to replace a car and be someone's means to commute. its meant to be for out-of-towners staying at the Omni or First National to have a fun way to get around town.

this is pretty much correct ..

and it was also designed to be a phase 1 and to work with the future regional transit system .

@BoulderSooner,

I worry OKC residents seeing it not be for them will stall any movement for expansion. Even if it is Phase 1 and there's a bigger vision - most people I talk to view the Streetcar as a giant waste of MAPS money. It's more often than not, driving around empty from Mon-Thurs. I don't know how there would be enough public support for expansion.

IMO - the more likely and needed rail project that would actually benefit locals would be a rail system that connects Edmond, Downtown, Tinker, Norman, and WRWA.

@BoulderSooner,

I worry OKC residents seeing it not be for them will stall any movement for expansion. Even if it is Phase 1 and there's a bigger vision - most people I talk to view the Streetcar as a giant waste of MAPS money. It's more often than not, driving around empty from Mon-Thurs. I don't know how there would be enough public support for expansion.

IMO - the more likely and needed rail project that would actually benefit locals would be a rail system that connects Edmond, Downtown, Tinker, Norman, and WRWA.

i don't disagree ..

i will also say the streetcar system should be free ... but the powers that be at Embark don't want it to be free .. ( even if it had sponsorship to cover the full cost which would be a very real possibility . ) .. except for a few weeks a year ..

What Steve is referencing is each stop should have the option to take a streetcar in either direction. Instead, if you jump on the streetcar in Auto Alley, you have to ride the streetcar through Midtown and Downtown just to get to Bricktown which might take 30-45 minutes. So what might be a 5 minutes ride to get somewhere is a 40 minute ride to get back. A very impractical model. It's faster and more efficient to walk....

Or you could walk 2 blocks over and catch the streetcar going the way you need it to go and have it be a 5 minute ride. :rolleyes:

https://okcstreetcar.com/ride-guide/route-map/

Or you could walk 2 blocks over and catch the streetcar going the way you need it to go and have it be a 5 minute ride. :rolleyes:

https://okcstreetcar.com/ride-guide/route-map/

very much this

except for much of the route it is only a 1 block walk ..

1 block in OKC is over 600' and then you might still have to walk another block or two to get to a stop. That could be 1800 feet. Then wait 15 minutes when you get there. Faster and as closer just to walk to your destination in most cases.

1 block in OKC is over 600' and then you might still have to walk another block or two to get to a stop. That could be 1800 feet. Then wait 15 minutes when you get there. Faster and as closer just to walk to your destination in most cases.
Yeah the streetcar is useless. I stopped riding when a knife was pulled on me and the driver couldn’t care less.