I rode the streetcar from midtown to bricktown the past two weekends, and I don't understand why can't get the SCs closer to 5 minute intervals. It seemed we hit almost every red light. The SC stopped for every stop whether anyone was waiting or needed to get off. We waited 15 minutes for one SC and 9 minutes for another. Will they ever do better integration with the stop lights or add more SCs to the line to speed up the intervals between SC arrivals?

Those are legitimate concerns. City needs to consider making the streetcar free, building up ridership, then look at the possibility of a modest fee a few years down the road.

We need to be patient and realize the juggling act needed to space the streetcar with distance or the metrics of its schedule becomes problematic. That's probably why you see the streetcar stopping at stops where there is no one to pick up.

I suspect a lot of it is pacing. They try to keep the ~5 cars roughly equally apart vs letting them get bunched up. I've noticed if they need to "slow things down" because of something causing them to bunch up, that they stop more often at unattended stops. All anecdotal observations of course.

I suspect a lot of it is pacing. They try to keep the ~5 cars roughly equally apart vs letting them get bunched up. I've noticed if they need to "slow things down" because of something causing them to bunch up, that they stop more often at unattended stops. All anecdotal observations of course.

Right, and they'll stop at the Dewey stop for extended periods of time to space back out again.

I thought the city purchased a traffic light prioritization system on the streetcar trains? Is this not being used, or no longer working?

I really feel the Achilles heel of the streetcar is the meandering route. We should not double down on this meandering system in future expansions. Those proposed expansions are just going to make this system more confusing.

Signal prioritization is great but if it would cause more issues than solve (e.g. bunching up because blowing all the lights) then I'm sure they just don't end up using it at those times.

You'll never get an argument out of me about this terrible route.

I suspect a lot of it is pacing. They try to keep the ~5 cars roughly equally apart vs letting them get bunched up. I've noticed if they need to "slow things down" because of something causing them to bunch up, that they stop more often at unattended stops. All anecdotal observations of course.

I think this is definitely why they stop at all stops. I have raised this question so many times. WHY THO!?

The streetcars should only stop for spacing in the designated dwelling zones. Forcing ALL passengers to travel slower for literally no reason other than to keep spacing is asinine. The only time you should see streetcars stopping at stops is for unloading and loading.

Stopping at empty stops makes existing passengers see less of a point in using the streetcar in the future. It is detrimental to the SC to not prioritize travel for people on the SC.

Someone mentioned that Broadway would have been a better streetcar route. The Broadway route should have been given more consideration; who knows how congested that could have been.

Why not add passing tracks at four, or five stations, and run the streetcar both directions? Counterclockwise would stay the same, clockwise would take the siding. And add a switch at the Colcord, so the Downtown route wouldn’t have to go thru Bricktown.

Someone mentioned that Broadway would have been a better streetcar route. The Broadway route should have been given more consideration; who knows how congested that could have been.


This route is still salvageable. But the businesses along Broadway would be rightfully pissed at another round of construction.


IMO, this should have been the route. Double-tracked and center lane. Around 6 miles total of rail. (We currently have just under 5 looped). Then you can expand off of this main route with single lines.

23rd, Broadway, and EK Gaylord are all already wide enough for this.

https://i.imgur.com/oA8nLK0.png

Does anyone really think there will be more expansion? I would bet good money that we won't.

It seems that based on the transit plans presented in MAPS 4, the city is more focused on bringing a BRT from downtown to the southside and the eastside in addition to the Classen/NW Expressway BRT already under consideration. If we want those to be more like the streetcar, just switch out the busses for that Chinese autonomous electric train concept vehicle in the future. That way we aren't permanently tied to a route but we still have the "cool" factor of the streetcar vehicles.

There will probably be expansion but via other funding (e.g. not MAPS). Examples include what was recently proposed for the innovation district (see that thread). Other funding might also mean somewhere down the line via RTA funding.

would be quick and cheap(er) to make a few bus routes that looped through some of these proposed paths. It would also allow for some level of real-life study on what works and what needs to be altered.. and then maybe you eventually expand the streetcar into those routes.

Of course then you end up with them being much easier to discontinue (RIP CIRC)

I know I'm preaching to the choir (and I wish it _would_ work), but wheeled options never work as well as rail options in terms of drawing subsequent investment in an area due to the lack of permanency. But there are better/actual experts on this board to attest to that. Anecdotally, look at what happened to MAPS I. We wanted rail in that one, but settled for wheeled trolleys. Those trolleys were eventually replaced by city buses (CIRC), and that route was eventually nixed. Businesses know this and won't make the same investment they would if there were rail. Probably that gets a tad less true as bus route density and ridership improve.

Is the CIRC bus route dead?

Yes. I lamented this about a year ago (during the budget process):

https://twitter.com/shawn_dubs/status/1283206655161905152

Why not add passing tracks at four, or five stations, and run the streetcar both directions? Counterclockwise would stay the same, clockwise would take the siding. And add a switch at the Colcord, so the Downtown route wouldn’t have to go thru Bricktown.

If you become pretty familiar with the route, you're really never more than a short walk from a station on the entirely opposite end of the system. For example, when I go to the courthouse, I jump on at Dewey, I jump off at the Business District, then I jump back on at the Library stop, which bypasses a large part of the system. We're not used to public transit in OKC, but this had to be how the designers intended for this thing to work.

If you become pretty familiar with the route, you're really never more than a short walk from a station on the entirely opposite end of the system. For example, when I go to the courthouse, I jump on at Dewey, I jump off at the Business District, then I jump back on at the Library stop, which bypasses a large part of the system. We're not used to public transit in OKC, but this had to be how the designers intended for this thing to work.

If you have used public transit in other American cities it isn't that weird/bad. If you have spent any time in Europe or Asia it is just a massive failure of what if. I used the streetcar for a little over a year for my primary transit to and from work and getting around the downtown area where I lived. The timing was consistently horrific. The number of times I was standing on the platform and the drivers blew past me on the last loop before they closed was too damn high rain or snow. The way the streetcar system is setup right now is a novelty not public transit it is a complete and total joke. I hate driving, but the abysmal bussing and public transit in this city forced me to buy a car when Uber and Lyft prices for my monthly transportation expenses exceeded a reasonable car payment/insurance/upkeep fund. I wish we would get our **** together with public transit, but I don't think we will ever have the political will to do so.

Keep the faith. Keep pressing your local reps.

Ugh, please no expansion.

Expansion done right (e.g. not TOD this time) could be the proverbial OKC "game changer".

Please expansion...how cool and convenient to take the streetcar to the Plaza area or to 23rd Street and on up the Paseo area!

Agreed with Shawn. Expansion is the only thing in my mind that can really make the streetcar a big success, and if done right, would definitely be a game changer.

Lol I remember people saying the original streetcar was going to be a “game changer.”

That's why I made the reference I did with it in quotes

Many existing streetcar route deficiencies could be largely overcome with three blocks of new track.

1. Bricktown cutoff down Robinson straight to convention center (2 blocks)
2. Midtown cutoff between NW 11th and NW 10th (1 block)

Run 3 separate routes with transfers and maybe one single through route (or two if you really want to). The end.

It will be interesting how much the streetcar is used once conventions start rolling in.

Very hard to gauge success due to the pandemic.

Yeah, I don't for a second categorize it as a failure. The numbers were pretty respectable pre-pandemic. You can't base it off of anything from the past 15 months.

I was only mentioning what I did because I think that adding those cutoffs and running separate routes would create much more success. Agree with the point made upthread regarding knowing where to cut off the route on foot and do that myself quite a bit already. But it would only require a tiny bit more track to create three relatively quick routes (which could be made even quicker by truly bypassing stops when nobody was waiting or wanting to get off).

Lol I remember people saying the original streetcar was going to be a “game changer.”

i do too... and i thought it might as well. until i saw the original plans, and sadly, i was correct in exactly what it would become based upon that route

It is fair to say "game changer" is overused and not fresh.

"game changer" is the new game changer

Many existing streetcar route deficiencies could be largely overcome with three blocks of new track.

1. Bricktown cutoff down Robinson straight to convention center (2 blocks)
2. Midtown cutoff between NW 11th and NW 10th (1 block)

Run 3 separate routes with transfers and maybe one single through route (or two if you really want to). The end.

I like how you think, sir

Just to show all how easy it would be to use our 5-6 miles in a better way than the dreadful options presented to the city council... it's no wonder Pete White was unconvinced.

Here are two separate lines... Santa Fe to the Plaza and Santa Fe to the Paseo.... both would be 6 miles of two-way track that open downtown to actual residents and two cool districts to downtown visitors... the shaded area shows what is within three blocks of the tracks... it makes sense...connects all of downtown (including Bricktown)... and would make sense to expand upon.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/OKC%20Development/streetcar.png

What could have been!

Lots of issues with that map.

Classen Dr doesn't current connect through to Classen and beyond, would be tough to get that line past the rich homeowners in that neighborhood many of whom wouldn't want mass transit going past their doors. Same deal with the leg up Walker probably, 13 blocks or so of pure residential street and lots of potentially angry property owners.

And not connecting it to the new park and convention center area loses synergy with the rest of MAPS 3 and basically any traffic that convention goers would provide.

I'm always amazed at how most people here don't even think about Capitol Hill when talking about expansion. Please consider how many people in that area might either currently work downtown or would work downtown with a streetcar connection. It shouldn't just be way to get to "cool" districts.

My proposed route would have been a straight route from SW25 to NW23 along Walker connecting downtown to Capitol Hill, Mesta Park, Heritage Hills, Paseo/Jefferson Park.

CH has been on the short list of expected expansions all along, just hasn't been talked about lately. I doubt you read all 9K posts in this thread but if you did I suspect you'd see quite a bit of talk about it. It was discussed as recently as shortly after launch of the current system if I'm remembering correctly.

What could have been!

that would have been 9 miles of track .. (not to mention no maint facility location) and as others have said good look going through HH/mesta also it would not touch the CC or the transit hub (making it not politically viable )

My proposed route would have been a straight route from SW25 to NW23 along Walker connecting downtown to Capitol Hill, Mesta Park, Heritage Hills, Paseo/Jefferson Park.

CH has been on the short list of expected expansions all along, just hasn't been talked about lately. I doubt you read all 9K posts in this thread but if you did I suspect you'd see quite a bit of talk about it. It was discussed as recently as shortly after launch of the current system if I'm remembering correctly.

and there is 0% chance that route would have ever been approved ..

Lots of issues with that map.

Classen Dr doesn't current connect through to Classen and beyond, would be tough to get that line past the rich homeowners in that neighborhood many of whom wouldn't want mass transit going past their doors. Same deal with the leg up Walker probably, 13 blocks or so of pure residential street and lots of potentially angry property owners.

And not connecting it to the new park and convention center area loses synergy with the rest of MAPS 3 and basically any traffic that convention goers would provide.

The point of public transit is to connect residential to job/ entertainment centers. The existing streetcar is pretty much a carnival ride right now as it doesn't actually move people from one place to another. I cant imagine why any property owners would be against a nearby streetcar as it would only increase property values for anyone lucky enough to own close to it. i'd let the city put a streetcar stop in my front yard if I could :tongue:

Oh sure, there's probably plenty of property owners along that route who would be delighted. But they aren't the ones who would be screaming about it at city council meetings.

The streetcar is not intended for daily transport - it's an economic development tool. And by that metric, it has been a big success, in my view.

If it was intended for transport it wouldn't be a single-tracked loop with a route that goes from places where no one lives to places where only a few people live.

I timed it out once. I lived on the route and it was something like 14 minutes to get to the Downtown Transit Center on foot and 11 minutes via streetcar -- but again, that's not its purpose. Its purpose it to get people to come Downtown and visit more shops and bars and restaurants and events that they otherwise would if they had to drive from place to place and "find parking".

My proposed route would have been a straight route from SW25 to NW23 along Walker connecting downtown to Capitol Hill, Mesta Park, Heritage Hills, Paseo/Jefferson Park.

CH has been on the short list of expected expansions all along, just hasn't been talked about lately. I doubt you read all 9K posts in this thread but if you did I suspect you'd see quite a bit of talk about it. It was discussed as recently as shortly after launch of the current system if I'm remembering correctly.

Actually I probably have read most of the posts in this thread. I'm well aware that Capitol Hill has been discussed but for most people it is still basically an afterthought.

Public transit will work in OKC when there is any area with the density necessary to support whatever mode is being used. The reason the streetcar doesn't have incredible ridership is because downtown doesn't have incredible population.

Everyone who was talking through this 5-10 years ago was pretty clear: this is a starter route for a larger system.

Anyone who thinks there is a substantially better route for the number of miles of track we had to build is fooling themselves. As a TOD + system starter, the route is just fine.

17053

Public transit will work in OKC when there is any area with the density necessary to support whatever mode is being used. The reason the streetcar doesn't have incredible ridership is because downtown doesn't have incredible population.

Everyone who was talking through this 5-10 years ago was pretty clear: this is a starter route for a larger system.

Anyone who thinks there is a substantially better route for the number of miles of track we had to build is fooling themselves. As a TOD + system starter, the route is just fine.

all of this ...

First Time riding the streetcar in a long time. Probably a year or so. I was actually ask to show proof of fare even though my group of 4 was the only ones on the streetcar. I was wondering now that Omni, convention center, and the park are fully going has asking for proof of fare a bit more normal? Not sure why they didn't put some kind of scanners at the doors but with the way it's set up probably would be hard to have such a system unless you could only enter at front doors and exit at the back doors.

Holt should apply to upgrade the streetcar and expand it. A billion dollars would provide for a very nice expansion for years to come.

Holt should apply to upgrade the streetcar and expand it. A billion dollars would provide for a very nice expansion for years to come.

I've been thinking that with the FAM opening and the new resort being anounced, I wouldn't be surprised in a couple of years following resort completion we hear that the Chickasaws are going to help fund extending the streetcar from downtown to these projects.

We need to do an extensive study on the Streetcar expansion; then decide where to build new tracks.

Meanwhile, make the streetcar free for two or three years, build ridership. Right now, it looks like a waste to have streetcars rolling around with less than five people riding.

We need to do an extensive study on the Streetcar expansion; then decide where to build new tracks.

Meanwhile, make the streetcar free for two or three years, build ridership. Right now, it looks like a waste to have streetcars rolling around with less than five people riding.
There needs to be something done to improve ridership. I don't think I've seen one yet with more than 3 or 4 people on it. And that's not hyperbole. As it stands, this looks like a huge miscalculation.

this was about 8 years ago

https://andrewkstewart.wordpress.com/category/ideas/urban-design/

The streetcar needs to have the ability to turn lights green so it doesn't have to stop at each light, a lot of cities street cars do this. I love OKC's streetcar but it is so slow.

The streetcar needs to have the ability to turn lights green so it doesn't have to stop at each light, a lot of cities street cars do this. I love OKC's streetcar but it is so slow.

It does have signal prioritization, but not at all intersections (which most of us believe is a stupid decision, I believe, but it was a battle to just get the ones that they did get).

For sure it will expand. I remember when Salt Lake City only had one line and now their rail almost covers the entire city and Seattle is a great example as well they have expansions going up into the 2030's

It does have signal prioritization, but not at all intersections (which most of us believe is a stupid decision, I believe, but it was a battle to just get the ones that they did get).

So why the battle and what interests were opposed?

So why the battle and what interests were opposed?

Not completely sure, Urbanized can fill in the details on this one. From what I remember, there were a ton of recommendations from anybody with half a brain to use signal prioritization on quite a few intersections, but the committee decided to not do them (because of the cost and the horrible massive disruption to automobile traffic, I think), then they got pushed into doing a few, and then they maybe did a few more, then they stopped and said "Yeah, that's enough", even though it's probably not. The powers-that-be here in the city just can't see beyond carscarscarscars (it's getting better, but not by much, and not fast enough - the bike lanes on Main/General Pershing are ridiculous because for the most part, they're just painted lines).

Public works is opposed

The group backing Frank Urbanic for mayor (and Urbanic himself) is making the subsidy of the streetcar a major issue.

Lots of old suburban cranks are joining in.

It's become kind of a lightning rod for the always-looking-for-a-grievance Facebook crowd.

Such an ironic last name

Not completely sure, Urbanized can fill in the details on this one. From what I remember, there were a ton of recommendations from anybody with half a brain to use signal prioritization on quite a few intersections, but the committee decided to not do them (because of the cost and the horrible massive disruption to automobile traffic, I think), then they got pushed into doing a few, and then they maybe did a few more, then they stopped and said "Yeah, that's enough", even though it's probably not. The powers-that-be here in the city just can't see beyond carscarscarscars (it's getting better, but not by much, and not fast enough - the bike lanes on Main/General Pershing are ridiculous because for the most part, they're just painted lines).

Urban Pioneer probably…I wasn’t personally involved in streetcar.

I will say one thing about it after watching it closely AND using it for a few years now: I think much of what holds it back could be fixed for the cost of about three blocks of track and some new lane striping. If the track had a cutoff that continued directly south at Sheridan and Robinson and reconnected at Reno and Robinson (two blocks) and also had a cutoff that directly 11th and Robinson to tenth and Robinson you could create a Bricktown circulator, a Midtown circulator and a N-S spine.

As for lane striping, I would choose several key areas that currently have too-wide shared lanes and create dedicated transit/emergency lanes that guaranteed quick routes. It would suddenly become an incredibly quick way to get from A to B downtown. I don’t think the fare is the obstacle; it’s the meandering route.

I agree ^^

I "used" it for the first time a few weeks ago and was amazed at how slow it moved me to where I wanted to go. I was trying to go from the scissortail park to 12th and Broadway. After a 10 minute wait, we crawled through downtown only to be stopped by a vehicle encroaching in the lane, and then continued on a very slow pace up my stop. I reckon it took nearly 30 minutes from A to B and it's realistically only a 20 minute walk probably.

I have riden the streetcar a time or two before, but that was simply out of novelty. This was my first time using it for transit as I had no car available to me. It is really not effective in its current form; and I am pretty disappointed about that because I was (and still am) a huge proponent of it. It needs a fix, but that too is a political suicide for it. If there were a way to silently fix the route....