he's running his own web of ideological information and it seems you got caught in it.

I am only quoting this because I already responded to this in my other post responding to AP. I am not "caught" into anything. Someone posted here that cars and its infrastructure do not pay anything and I posted an article that contrasts that widely spread myth. Apart from having the highest personal capital costs of any form of transit, car drivers pay tons of user fees which I have already pointed out APART from any tolls. Freight by truck is also the largest source of movement in the industry. They pay scores of money for their use of the roads. Not mention all the other taxes car drivers pay from their income, ad valorum, property taxes, etc. all are paid from the largest group of commuters whom drive solo in their car.

Regardless of how biased that article is, point out individual discrepancies in it and site sources that dispel those in the article. Otherwise I've seen countless citylab articles or those like it posted here and other urban forum that just spew the same pro-transit/ RE/T propaganda and no one ever questions it. It's funded by the same interests that seek to build that type of transport as is those who lobby for freeway construction. There is no difference.

Your reasoning is classic whataboutism. All websites and organizations are not equal just because they come to different conclusion. If you want to disagree with a point in a CityLab article that's fine, but it doesn't justify using sketchy sites with different opinions (which are way less credible). This is comparable to saying, "I don't agree with the cigarettes-cause-cancer articles in Time magazine so I'm going to read this blog post written by Marlboro Man on CigarettesAreHealthy.com."
Never once did I state all websites are equal for any reason. Keep this in context. A poster made a claim and provided evidence that points to the contrary. Virtually every article that is posted about induced demand, cars and their infrastructure don't pay for themselves, etc. can be traced to the same sources that those contesting the one I provided do just on the opposite end of the spectrum. It is no different.

The best way to significantly boost streetcar ridership numbers is to-

1. Resolve the parking blockage problem through the elimination of parking in trouble spots or through aggressive towing. (Numbers have been added to every parking spot to collect data on each location where blockages are occurring to determine if there are specific problematic locations. That data started being collected a month or so ago and is now being aggregated.)

2. Make the streetcar free to ride and treat it as a economic development tool to generate sales tax revenue.

3. Implement the RTA legs to feed the system riders.

4. Build more high-density housing near streetcar stops.
.
A couple questions. I was already irritated with the original timeline of the RTA implementation to actual rail service being started in 10 years but now I would love for to have been a reality. Is the current timeline still on track or has it been pushed back another ten years?

For ridership, have their been any studies showing that if the things you suggested be implemented become a reality detail the numbers of increased riders?

My plan for the streetcar would be this:

1. Eliminate all parking adjacent to streetcar line and convert it to a protected two way bike lane.

2. Provide incentives to high density housing built along streetcar route with removed parking minimums and vouchers for residents to access free transit usage in lieu of a parking space.

3. Ban all private car usage on 4th st. from Classen to Lincoln Blvd. This allows for the streetcar to flow unimpeded and allow buses, bicycles, and streetcar ONLY to use this street. It is perfect because a new large bus station with a relocated Greyhound station can be built on the existing site, it is a great spot for buses using I-35, Lincoln, and NWE BRT lines to move without being impeded by cars.

4. Ban cars from using Sheridan Ave. from EK Gaylord to Joe Carter Ave. Allow only buses and bicycles to use the lanes.

5. Narrow Reno, Thunder Dr., Robinson, Sheridan(front of Cox Center), to allow for streetcar only usage of that lane and ban right turns crossing streetcar tracks.

6. Extend system to Innovation District, OCU, Paseo, Capitol Hill, and Plaza District(DOUBLE TRACK).

7. Increase frequencies to 3-4 minutes peak and 7-10 minutes off peak.

8. Run 7 days a week from 4am-3am.

9. Make service free for seniors, students, disabled, veterans, government staff, and anyone under 18.

Do these things and I bet you ridership goes up.

The RTA will indeed be important but if we really want to ensure a proper system, transit investment HAS to be increased in communities that the RTA connects to including buses, streetcar in those communities, and protected bike corridors. Park and ride also has to be big. A quality rail system being mostly if not entirely grade separated should be sought. Quality over quantity should be encouraged. Invest in a proper line to Norman. Edmond should do fine with Amtrak and BRT. Run BRT on new lanes along Broadway that cars can use for a higher toll and overpasses at intersections. Let buses use inner shoulders of Broadway extension like many cities do.

I'd like to see your metrics. I understood what AP meant and I responded to that. I pretty much said all I can say about that article and its perceived bias. I guess we should just stick to citylab, curbed, and streetsblog idk.

I don't understand your question to me, I don't have any metrics, the first three paragraphs were quoted from your article and I was asking how he arrived at 23.8 cents per passenger mile (From the article - "We know passenger miles are worth 23.8 cents to users,..." (emphasis mine)).

^^^^ I don’t know. I’ll reread it.

This is not remotely true. Cars are the least subsidized form of transportation that exists.

https://opportunityurbanism.org/2019/09/transport-costs-and-subsidies-by-mode/

The link is obviously from a highly biased source, so at a minimum is going to be extremely misleading.

But yeah, when you include the cost of car ownership and don't include indirect subsidies, and ignore forced subsidies via zoning, etc. It can really skew the results.

Anyone with any knowledge of the subject knows that you are introducing massive bias when you divide by miles traveled, too, since miles through corn fields are insanely cheap compared to urban mileage. Mass transit operates over short, extremely expensive distances, while the majority of the highway system is in the middle of no where.

Edit: based on your other posts, you are massively misunderstanding what I said. I never said cars don't pay for anything. Their massive capital and opex requirements are a huge negative for cars, especially for lower income people. But their own capital and opex is completely different than the costs on society for their use. Gas taxes do not fully pay for car infrastructure at the federal or state level. Currently nothing is paying for the damage their pollution causes. Beyond free pollution and subsidized infrastructure, there are a ton of indirect subsidies too, like mandated parking, etc.

Obviously overall cars and freight have been a economic positive to the US, but that doesn't mean they are the best solution in every case. And my initial point, many posts back, is that it is ridiculous that public transit is always expected to pay for itself in direct fees, while there is no similar expectation for cars (and especially not freight).

This is so laughably untrue it defies explanation. Private vehicles enable each and every individual the freedom to go nearly anywhere they want at anytime they want, facilitate broad delivery of goods and services throughout cities, states, and the nation. They give people the ability to live and work where they choose. They offer the ability to provide emergency services such as fire, police, and medical attention. "Cost burden?" "Loss of life/ability to work?" Shall we go back to covered wagons and horse-drawn carriages? C'mon.

Please. Cars have their place. Streetcars have their place. Airplanes have their place. And each has its drawbacks. Let's not go down the road of unilaterally vilifying one of the tremendous and vastly underappreciated benefits of living in a free society.

Not sure who's argument you're responding to, but it isn't mine. I never said anything about cars giving or not giving freedom, or facilitating movement of goods. Not at all "unilaterally vilifying" cars, just debating the idea that public transit should pay for itself, while cars don't come close to paying for themselves. Feel free to actually argue against what I said, as opposed to the straw man you built.

But are you seriously trying to say automobiles don't result in the loss of life or short/long term disabilities?

BTW: To make it more obvious, I was saying that the street car is more likely to be successful and provide more benefit to the city free, than them attempting to collect a tiny percentage of the opex through fares. I wasn't at all saying we should closed down roads and force everyone to take the streetcar everywhere.

Why don't we cover the streetcars in advertisements, inside and out. Since so many of them are driving around with hardly anyone inside, it might as well earn ad revenue whilst doing so. Look at the ridership numbers for every weekend in December for evidence.

I have a lot of friends who have never tried it because when you have a group of 4-6 people, an Uber/Lyft split between them is less than the cost of everyone to buy a ticket. Plus the vehicle is coming to and dropping off at an exact location and you can track its arrival on a map.

Make the streetcar free by whatever means possible and you remove a huge entry barrier.

I agree, any hope of making the streetcar a true success will require it be free, just like the Boulevard, Scissortail Park, and I-235.

But, I wanted to clarify, you can now track the train location on Google Maps. I found it to be pretty accurate.

The link is obviously from a highly biased source, so at a minimum is going to be extremely misleading.

But yeah, when you include the cost of car ownership and don't include indirect subsidies, and ignore forced subsidies via zoning, etc. It can really skew the results.

Anyone with any knowledge of the subject knows that you are introducing massive bias when you divide by miles traveled, too, since miles through corn fields are insanely cheap compared to urban mileage. Mass transit operates over short, extremely expensive distances, while the majority of the highway system is in the middle of no where.
You already posted these claims and I responded to them.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar030320b.jpg

Isn't that old data? Where can we find this source?

Isn't that old data? Where can we find this source?

I corrected the image; I had linked to an old one.

This is from a monthly report issued by COTPA.

This thread reminds me a lot of the Eufaula thread. Live blogging statistics which don't help paint an accurate picture of the larger issues and aims. It was built to encourage dense downtown development. I don't think that it's a coincidence that dense downtown development has been springing up all along the streetcar route. Condemning the streetcar today as failed is just as silly as the folks who denounced OKC's water policy thinking Canton was going to head the way of Lake Optima. Say what you want about previous city managers, OKC has had excellent leadership and long-term thinking, and the streetcar is part of that.

It will be very interesting to see the ridership impact of the new convention center and how much it is utilized to move people to and from Bricktown.

I was the only one on it a little after 6:30 from Bricktown to the Jason Aldean concert. This was a Friday night also. Tons of people walking to the concert but no one was riding the streetcar. Maybe they want the exercise? Maybe they don't want to spend $1. Don't know what is it but amazes me for concerts no one is riding it. Now for Thunder Games it has picked up some.

I'd think going fare-free would help a lot.

This is a start and honestly I can’t believe this wasn’t done from the get. It just shows, IMO, that this system could see a bump in riders if it were operated more efficient and effectively.

https://journalrecord.com/2020/03/03/city-considers-bigger-fines-for-obstructing-streetcars/

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar030520a.jpg

I'd think going fare-free would help a lot.

Agree.

I'd think going fare-free would help a lot.

I've been trying to find the article again, but i can't seem to get it, and it looks like it might be behind one of the paywall sites that i used up all my free views on.

but just a week or so ago, was reading how Kansas City actually saved money by going fare-free. because the cost for handling the money, counting the money, controls around the money, and external auditors to verify and test the controls, was actually more than the total amount they were bringing in. so the operations costs were getting covered by it anyways.

I've been trying to find the article again, but i can't seem to get it, and it looks like it might be behind one of the paywall sites that i used up all my free views on.

but just a week or so ago, was reading how Kansas City actually saved money by going fare-free. because the cost for handling the money, counting the money, controls around the money, and external auditors to verify and test the controls, was actually more than the total amount they were bringing in. so the operations costs were getting covered by it anyways.
That makes a lot of sense. If you end up finding it, I'd love to read it.

https://dcist.com/story/20/03/02/free-metro-rides-for-d-c-residents-a-bill-is-in-the-works/

A bill in DC for fare free metro.

https://dcist.com/story/20/03/02/free-metro-rides-for-d-c-residents-a-bill-is-in-the-works/

A bill in DC for fare free metro.

well not quite fare free. for a $100 subsidy for metro each month. but i do like that if you are paying the like $350 a month for unlimited pass, you can use it towards that as well.

It's been almost a year and a half since the streetcar was opened and most (all?) of the stops still have this temporary plastic netting:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar042320a.jpg

Wait. What!?

With the current situation, observing the Streetcar from regular bike rides thru downtown, it’s running almost empty. No wonder the safety net is still there. It must be one of the safest jobs in transit, the motorman having a sealed off room, and no patrons. A friend drove buses in Portland, and even though they had a strong union, nothing was done to separate the drivers from the passengers, and that lead to assaults, spitting and other obnoxious behaviors.

I’ve been on it twice and both times were just to ride the entire system. Both times there were confrontations that occurred with the fare checker which had to kick out someone who was either mentally ill, a vagrant, or both. Both times they screamed and cussed but eventually left with no violence albeit some funny arguments. Didn’t think I’d see that in OKC like I see in LA.

Does anyone that rides the bus experience this or has anyone ridden the streetcar experienced that here?

In March, the #kcstreetcar experienced a 50% reduction in service. March ridership was 89,111 trips: 43%: https://kcstreetcar.org/

KC Streetcar reducing hours in response to COVID-19: https://www.kshb.com/news/coronavirus/kc-streetcar-reducing-hours-in-response-to-covid-19

K. C. streetcar's main street extension grant seeking $151 million dollars in federal funding and inclusion in the federal 2020-year budget to support the estimated $316 million-dollar project continues to move forward: https://kcstreetcar.org/main-st-extension-advances-federal-funding-request/

I’ve been on it twice and both times were just to ride the entire system. Both times there were confrontations that occurred with the fare checker which had to kick out someone who was either mentally ill, a vagrant, or both. Both times they screamed and cussed but eventually left with no violence albeit some funny arguments. Didn’t think I’d see that in OKC like I see in LA.

Does anyone that rides the bus experience this or has anyone ridden the streetcar experienced that here?

I've probably ridden it around 20 times and have never experienced that.

I’ve been on it twice and both times were just to ride the entire system. Both times there were confrontations that occurred with the fare checker which had to kick out someone who was either mentally ill, a vagrant, or both. Both times they screamed and cussed but eventually left with no violence albeit some funny arguments. Didn’t think I’d see that in OKC like I see in LA.

Does anyone that rides the bus experience this or has anyone ridden the streetcar experienced that here?

Ride the bus every day and haven't experienced anything like that. Same with streetcar, have ridden it quite a bit, though not lately, mostly riding the bike.

That is so bizarre... hmmmm. Maybe those people just tend to find me :p

The Oklahoma City streetcar will be okay for now. The streetcars are not by any means overloaded; we're offering enough free rides to increase ridership.

Let's not forget, Kansas City's streetcar is in a city were there is plenty of above ground retail; whereas OKC is attempting to development more retail and restaurants above ground. We also have twice as much streetcar rail in place than Kansas City.

Metropolitan Statistical Area Population 2019 Estimates:


Kansas City 2,157,990
Oklahoma City 1,408,950

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_statistical_areas

Kansas City is gearing up to expand their streetcar system. I don’t remember the scope of the project.

Kansas City is gearing up to expand their streetcar system. I don’t remember the scope of the project.

Kansas City will double the size of its rail by 2021 with their main street extension. It will be equivalent to the size of OKC's current rail miles.

Is the OKC streetcar free until April 30th?

I don't know if it's officially free but on buses right now, with rear door entry for driver protection, fares aren't being checked right now. It's stated that everyone is expected to have fares, but no one is looking at them. Maybe something similar going on with streetcar, too...

so much for KC's model fo rthe streetcar, with them begging the federal government for operating funds. I seriously doubt there's going to be ANY expansion any time soon let alone the continuation of free fares in their system after the coronavirus subsides.

Realty will show if KCs model was a good idea or not, so far it's been heavily subsidized and honestly isn't really that big of ridership considering that it is subsidized. I bet OKC would be higher than theirs if OKC subsidized ours.

so much for KC's model fo rthe streetcar, with them begging the federal government for operating funds. I seriously doubt there's going to be ANY expansion any time soon let alone the continuation of free fares in their system after the coronavirus subsides.

Realty will show if KCs model was a good idea or not, so far it's been heavily subsidized and honestly isn't really that big of ridership considering that it is subsidized. I bet OKC would be higher than theirs if OKC subsidized ours.

? KCMO funds their streetcar through sales tax on a specific land area, which has suffered quite a bit. Their model isn't failing at this point. Every transit system is in a tough spot right now, free of charge or not. Too early to make any comments.

so much for KC's model fo rthe streetcar, with them begging the federal government for operating funds. I seriously doubt there's going to be ANY expansion any time soon let alone the continuation of free fares in their system after the coronavirus subsides.

Realty will show if KCs model was a good idea or not, so far it's been heavily subsidized and honestly isn't really that big of ridership considering that it is subsidized. I bet OKC would be higher than theirs if OKC subsidized ours.

Every form of transit involves public subsidy. What do you think paid for the roads you drive on? The OKC system wasn't really built with the first goal of driving foot traffic around the city. It exists to drive development at the Core.

^^^ that is exactly why our streetcar is a stupid investment. It was built as a real estate development tool. It doesn’t serve the function of efficiently moving people and that is why 99.9 percent of people will still choose the car or even walk.

? KCMO funds their streetcar through sales tax on a specific land area, which has suffered quite a bit. Their model isn't failing at this point. Every transit system is in a tough spot right now, free of charge or not. Too early to make any comments.

Correct, it's much to early to make that call. When the Convention Center Complex is open and the surrounding street infrastructure is upgraded; we'll have a better handle on how to integrate the streetcar with the core.

Current construction projects in the core is an obstacle to seeing the potential of the streetcar in this area.

^^^ that is exactly why our streetcar is a stupid investment. It was built as a real estate development tool. It doesn’t serve the function of efficiently moving people and that is why 99.9 percent of people will still choose the car or even walk.

If it ups the ad valorem and sales tax revenue enough to cover costs, is it stupid then?

If it ups the ad valorem and sales tax revenue enough to cover costs, is it stupid then?

:congrats:

The streetcar route is finally showing on Apple Maps

16115

If it ups the ad valorem and sales tax revenue enough to cover costs, is it stupid then?
Yes because that money could have been used for a real transit line which also would have increased prosperity and economic output. It’s been proven time and time again.

There is logically no reason to build as streetcar to spur development other than a personal desire to see this thing built which is an obsolete design and extremely slow.

Yes because that money could have been used for a real transit line which also would have increased prosperity and economic output. It’s been proven time and time again.

There is logically no reason to build as streetcar to spur development other than a personal desire to see this thing built which is an obsolete design and extremely slow.

Bus stops don't enhance property value. They also don't spur development. It's cool though, it's a big city and we can do many different types of transit. Walking and chewing gum isn't an issue.

Why does the streetcar run in the left lane on Sheridan in front of Devon? Just curious.

Bus stops don't enhance property value. They also don't spur development. It's cool though, it's a big city and we can do many different types of transit. Walking and chewing gum isn't an issue.

Reliable, frequent transit enhances property values. A rail in the ground does not make transit service permanent, just look at the original streetcar rails. Transit is about geometry and physics more than aesthetics.

Why does the streetcar run in the left lane on Sheridan in front of Devon? Just curious.

I seem to remember something being said about allowing room for food truck parking when there is an event in the park.

I haven't seen street car numbers in a while. How it is doing with Covid? Any numbers in Kansas City to compare how we are doing to theirs?

From a COTPA agenda just posted today:


Ridership for the OKC Streetcar Is continuing an increase over the previous month. June 2020 ridership (9,928) is a 80% decrease from May 2019 ridership (48,108).

Ridership is now so incredibly low, COTPA is no longer making charts to show ridership and how it compares to previous months and year-over-year.

I would be interested to know the increase in subsidy the city is now having to cover.

^ They need to just make it free. Remove all barriers to entry, especially if the revenue is going to be no more than a rounding error.

^ They need to just make it free. Remove all barriers to entry, especially if the revenue is going to be no more than a rounding error.

Right, at least for the foreseeable future.

^ They need to just make it free. Remove all barriers to entry, especially if the revenue is going to be no more than a rounding error.

Right, at least for the foreseeable future.

There were ridership numbers shown at the COTPA meeting on Friday, I was on the virtual.

There were ridership numbers shown at the COTPA meeting on Friday, I was on the virtual.

Right, but they no longer put the comparison and trend charts in their agenda.

Make it free for now until you build ridership; then revisit fares at a later date. Right now you don't want high ridership while we're dealing with Covid-19 and social distancing.

They have been mostly empty from what I can tell. The only exception I have seen is this past weekend when I think there was a car show of some sorts in the CCC. I still think the majority of riders are not paying.

I saw an announcement that the streetcar is free on Friday August 21.

i still say it should just be free forever. while i know that $2 doesn't seem like it would be a hassle, for some reason with my friends they always bring up that it's a hassle to have to get a ticket. and i think ridership all the time would be way up and it would actually be used much more if it were just free.