Is their streetcar seriously called SLUT? Sorry but :lol2: :laughing_

haha, yeop.

it was initially called SLUT (South Lake Union Trolley), but after a year or so worth of jokes and laughs they changed the name officially to SLUS (South Lake Union Streetcar). but everyone still knows it as the SLUT and calls it the SLUT. hahahaha

In Seattle everyone rides the SLUT. It's a great ride, if I do say so myself.. I believe it goes through a new Hargreaves-designed park as well.

Click on the video to the right of our home page to see a detailed description. Its a really well done film.

www.mtpokc.com

I received the following survey in my email.

http://s-d7vaw-344754.sgizmo.com/i/76864e17049472p99797

I urge everyone fill it out but select the 'Other' options and leave comments on how UTTERLY DREADFUL these conceptual drawing are. Totally inorganic, stupid, amateur, novelty, un-user-friendly, these proposed 'systems' are.

I received the following survey in my email.

http://s-d7vaw-344754.sgizmo.com/i/76864e17049472p99797

I urge everyone fill it out but select the 'Other' options and leave comments on how UTTERLY DREADFUL these conceptual drawing are. Totally inorganic, stupid, amateur, novelty, un-user-friendly, these proposed 'systems' are.

The more I see these one-way loops the more depressed I get. I fear this project was doomed from the start.

Kerry... I'm gonna need your should to cry on soon!

Kerry... I'm gonna need your shoulder to cry on soon!

I'm here for you.

I received the following survey in my email.

http://s-d7vaw-344754.sgizmo.com/i/76864e17049472p99797

I urge everyone fill it out but select the 'Other' options and leave comments on how UTTERLY DREADFUL these conceptual drawing are. Totally inorganic, stupid, amateur, novelty, un-user-friendly, these proposed 'systems' are.

I tried to do this, but when I clicked Submit Survey, it went to a white screen that said "Your survey could not be opened." When I clicked back, all my answers were blank.

I tried to do this, but when I clicked Submit Survey, it went to a white screen that said "Your survey could not be opened." When I clicked back, all my answers were blank.

same result here...

out of curiosity I went back and clicked all positive selections and it went thru...

I can't think of any other mode of transportation in the world that uses one-way loops other than systems that deliver everyone to the same destination or scenic roads (i.e. Airport parking garages, airport terminal trams, Walt Disney World parking trams, the road around Stone Mountain). This system is like have two office buildings trying to share the same elevator. In tower A the elevator only goes up and then at the roof it moves over to tower B where it only goes down. If you are in tower B and want to go up 10 floors you either have to ride the elevator all the way around or take the stairs.

I received the following survey in my email.

http://s-d7vaw-344754.sgizmo.com/i/76864e17049472p99797

I urge everyone fill it out but select the 'Other' options and leave comments on how UTTERLY DREADFUL these conceptual drawing are. Totally inorganic, stupid, amateur, novelty, un-user-friendly, these proposed 'systems' are.

I really like how they force you into choosing one of the four as "best." They are all horrible. OKC's leaders will never truly understand how mass transit is supposed to work, look no further than the current bus system. The light rail project is headed for disaster.

I really like how they force you into choosing one of the four as "best." They are all horrible. OKC's leaders will never truly understand how mass transit is supposed to work, look no further than the current bus system. The light rail project is headed for disaster.

The real problem is that they only get one chance to get this right. The anti-rail crowd is looking for the first sign of failure to destory any chance of expanding the system beyond this starter system - and this starter system is loaded with built-in failure. I thought OKC leaders already learned the harsh lessons of one-way streets.

597

Here is my best approach on how to lay out the downtown rail transit/streetcar.

3 lines – all with “trains” that can run in both directions (double ended) so there is no need for “couplet” style tracks a block or two apart running parallel. I don’t really understand why you’d want that if trains can run in both directions – except if there is a frequency issue. This approach would only need 4.35 miles of track. The remaining funds could go toward extending these lines eventually, upkeep, better stations/stops, or putting in another line altogether to take things up to the capitol building. I kind of see it as the approach the University of Oklahoma takes with sidewalks…put in the bare minimum and then see where students walk paths in the grass to find out where the next sidewalk should go. Here are the reasons I think this is the best approach.

• Its incremental. Each of these lines could stand on its own and draw a good amount of ridership. The city could start with the line on Sheridan Ave and then expand north.

• It reduces redundancy.
• It’s based on a “subway model” where riders take one train to a particular stop and then transfer to another. Streetcars are basically just above ground subways.

• It is expandable and doesn’t gravitate toward the “loop” system that closes off expansion.

• The lines are linear, duh. I think studies have shown that people will wait much longer at a stop if they can “see the train coming” down the road. It’s easy to understand and visitors will not struggle with the time schedules and such. Additionally, linear streetcar lines are much cheaper.

Here are my thoughts on the locations:

- The “Bricktown/Entertainment” line – this connects the Film District (big up and coming area of downtown) Central Business District, the Ford Center/Cox Convention Center with Bricktown. I think this is the most important line of them all. I like that its linear. I struggle with whether this should go on Sheridan or Reno Ave.

- The “Broadway” line – this connects the Ford Center and CBD with The Memorial and Broadway (which in my opinion is OKC’s best shot at a “cool” street with fun stores, shops, and nightlife). It has a little jog from Robinson to Broadway, but I think its important to hit both streets. It can bring people riding the “Midtown” line south to the CBD, Ford Center, and even eventually extend further south to the Core to Shore area and the new Boulevard.

- The “Midtown/Medical Corridor” line – This runs on 10th street from the OU Medical Center and Presbyterian Health Foundation complex all the way to St. Anthony’s. The areas along this line would likely develop as housing in Midtown. I feel one consideration being neglected in deciding where to locate the lines is finding non-developed land that can see big improvement with the addition of the line. There is lots of land in Midtown that would be ripe for development AND it would help ensure the future strength of OUHSC and St. Anthony’s with an increased ability to market those hospitals to out of town doctors.

Let me know what you think.

I like it a lot. I was thinking about this very concept a few nights ago. Grid road networks are very effective and are the best way to move people around. It would make sense rail would follow the same pattern

597

Here is my best approach on how to lay out the downtown rail transit/streetcar.

3 lines – all with “trains” that can run in both directions (double ended) so there is no need for “couplet” style tracks a block or two apart running parallel. I don’t really understand why you’d want that if trains can run in both directions – except if there is a frequency issue. This approach would only need 4.35 miles of track. The remaining funds could go toward extending these lines eventually, upkeep, better stations/stops, or putting in another line altogether to take things up to the capitol building. I kind of see it as the approach the University of Oklahoma takes with sidewalks…put in the bare minimum and then see where students walk paths in the grass to find out where the next sidewalk should go. Here are the reasons I think this is the best approach.

• Its incremental. Each of these lines could stand on its own and draw a good amount of ridership. The city could start with the line on Sheridan Ave and then expand north.

• It reduces redundancy.
• It’s based on a “subway model” where riders take one train to a particular stop and then transfer to another. Streetcars are basically just above ground subways.

• It is expandable and doesn’t gravitate toward the “loop” system that closes off expansion.

• The lines are linear, duh. I think studies have shown that people will wait much longer at a stop if they can “see the train coming” down the road. It’s easy to understand and visitors will not struggle with the time schedules and such. Additionally, linear streetcar lines are much cheaper.

Here are my thoughts on the locations:

- The “Bricktown/Entertainment” line – this connects the Film District (big up and coming area of downtown) Central Business District, the Ford Center/Cox Convention Center with Bricktown. I think this is the most important line of them all. I like that its linear. I struggle with whether this should go on Sheridan or Reno Ave.

- The “Broadway” line – this connects the Ford Center and CBD with The Memorial and Broadway (which in my opinion is OKC’s best shot at a “cool” street with fun stores, shops, and nightlife). It has a little jog from Robinson to Broadway, but I think its important to hit both streets. It can bring people riding the “Midtown” line south to the CBD, Ford Center, and even eventually extend further south to the Core to Shore area and the new Boulevard.

- The “Midtown/Medical Corridor” line – This runs on 10th street from the OU Medical Center and Presbyterian Health Foundation complex all the way to St. Anthony’s. The areas along this line would likely develop as housing in Midtown. I feel one consideration being neglected in deciding where to locate the lines is finding non-developed land that can see big improvement with the addition of the line. There is lots of land in Midtown that would be ripe for development AND it would help ensure the future strength of OUHSC and St. Anthony’s with an increased ability to market those hospitals to out of town doctors.

Let me know what you think.

So you're suggesting just one car per track? With 3-4 stops each way I would think there would be a 30 min interval between trains...

So you're suggesting just one car per track? With 3-4 stops each way I would think there would be a 30 min interval between trains...

there would probably need to be 2 cars on each track. Otherwise, one car on one track is really a one way loop. To go east you might have to go west first and that is what we are trying to avoid.

597


Let me know what you think.


I think it makes perfect sense... glad Kerry and I aren't the only ones.

The simplicity of an option like huskysooner's also gives us the option of using the streetcar grid to create other 'lines' based on demand. For example: We have three 'lines' in husky's example... let's call them A Train, B Train, and C Train. Let's say there is demand for a train going directly from St. Anthony's area to Bricktown. You have the option to transfer from C Train to B Train to A Train.... OR.... you can wait for the D Train which just turns on to the next track. Sort of like an Express train. This is how the New York Subways work and Boston's green line. If we keep everything to the grid we are never stuck with those routes... they can at anytime change as the need changes... based on events... based on rush hour.... any number of situations. Here is a google map showing the example.... no extra miles of track are needed. This would also cause more streetcars to be available in the middle of the system (where the most action is) because in the example of Broadway..... you could hop nearly ANY car you want to travel up and down it.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=104344503293271002446.00048f2259b6ff1ac5736

I'm liking this! This would be a great start.

The mileage that is listed, is that one way or two way mileage? Looks like one way mileage.

I believe that each direction counts toward the allotted 6 miles.

It's one way... but could easily be trimmed on the west ends of the 10th Street and Sheridan Ave. lines to keep it with in the 6 mile equation.
Shartel to Stiles / SW 3rd to 10th and Broadyway / Walker to Phillips .... would be about exactly 6 miles both ways and still have the integrity of the model.

Here is a good website detailing cities with existing streetcar systems in place and it gives an easy to read layout of the routes in each city.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/existing-systems/existing-streetcar-systems/

That is my ABSOLUTE FAVORITE site... along with http://www.infrastructurist.com/

If we keep everything to the grid we are never stuck with those routes... they can at anytime change as the need changes... based on events... based on rush hour.... any number of situations.

...or an accident. With loop service a single accident shuts down the entire system.

Keep in in mind that 10th street is factored out of the engineering assessments due to the at grade BNSF railroad crossing. I regularly see 10th or 13th headed over to Health Sciences on various concepts. The desire is strong, but the obstacle is great.

A few minor adjustments and we're back in business...
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/streetcar-2.jpg

A few minor adjustments and we're back in business...
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/streetcar-2.jpg

:congrats:

Maybe the best way to plan step 1 is to determine where we want to end up and reverse engineer a starter system. Here is my draft vision of what a final street car system could/should look like. You will notice that I don't have any rail leaving what I consider the inner loop (1-240/I-44/I-35). If you want to live outside this area get a car.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=599

In that case... how's this for a dream...
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/streetcarII.jpg

In that case... how's this for a dream...


Even better, but a bit extreme. OKC density would have to be pretty high to make that work.

Unless you went with this system
http://www.skytran.net/phpsite/home/Home%20Intro.php

http://www.skytran.net/phpsite/media/SkyTran-Seattle-final.jpg

http://www.skytran.net/phpsite/media/NASA%20SkyTran%20Vehicle%20&%20Guideway-cropped.jpg

Is it pretty common for streetcars to be on separate tracks instead of being in a constant cycle (kind of like a circle)?? It seems like it would make a lot more sense. For example, If I'm eating dinner at 1492 and want to go to Bricktown to watch a Redhawks game, I'm going to have to get off and get on three different streetcars, not to mention wait for each street car... No thanks, I'll just drive.

Is it pretty common for streetcars to be on separate tracks instead of being in a constant cycle (kind of like a circle)?? It seems like it would make a lot more sense. For example, If I'm eating dinner at 1492 and want to go to Bricktown to watch a Redhawks game, I'm going to have to get off and get on three different streetcars, not to mention wait for each street car... No thanks, I'll just drive.

That would be assuming that street cars only stick to the color coded track (maybe I shouldn't have used colors at all). Nothing would stop a street car from going from PSM area all the way to Capitol Hill. I am new to the drawing feature on Google Earth so let me try it again.

2 way track = 6 miles
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/StreetcarConcept.jpg

That's beautiful!

Actually should have had the south turn on Hudson go all the way to the Boulevard site instead... make the whole thing Uish-shaped...and help the Boulevard out.

I thought about this as the start of a new thread but this existing one already encompases a great deal of the overall transit design, and we have discussed the test commuter rail options. So I found this on the Gazette from Sept. 1st, don't know if that was where the discussion originally came from but anyway here is the article:

http://www.okgazette.com/article/09-01-2010/Light_rail_proponents_met_recently_with_Texas_rail _reps_to_talk_about_commuter_rail_s_next_step_in_O klahoma.aspx

Let's hope that the introduction to commuter rail is marketed in such a way to not exclude or alienate any section of the city. I am a little concerned with the trial only including those who would commute from Edmond to Downtown. I understand this is a trial and can't serve every area of the city, however it would be so great if they could have arranged it for a couple of days with one servicing Norman, Moore on to Downtown, and then one from MWC into the DT area. That would capitalize on a much larger cross section of the metro area residents and likley patrons.

I am pleased to see that they are making headway on this regardless...

I thought about this as the start of a new thread but this existing one already encompases a great deal of the overall transit design, and we have discussed the test commuter rail options. So I found this on the Gazette from Sept. 1st, don't know if that was where the discussion originally came from but anyway here is the article:

http://www.okgazette.com/article/09-01-2010/Light_rail_proponents_met_recently_with_Texas_rail _reps_to_talk_about_commuter_rail_s_next_step_in_O klahoma.aspx

Let's hope that the introduction to commuter rail is marketed in such a way to not exclude or alienate any section of the city. I am a little concerned with the trial only including those who would commute from Edmond to Downtown. I understand this is a trial and can't serve every area of the city, however it would be so great if they could have arranged it for a couple of days with one servicing Norman, Moore on to Downtown, and then one from MWC into the DT area. That would capitalize on a much larger cross section of the metro area residents and likley patrons.

I am pleased to see that they are making headway on this regardless...

OKC@ Heart, I think that it is more or less a scheduling issue with the operators of the various lines and existing infrastructure. Edmond apparently had more traction as they have retained a loading platform which enables moving the demonstration train off of the freight line. Apparently there are also less trains traveling the N/S corridor to Edmond and much of it is double tracked enabling passing.

Norman unfortunately has more freight traffic and no loading platform next to their depot. Amtrak has a carefully planned schedule worked out with BNSF to be able to stop there. Apparently, they used to have a platform and much of Norman was double tracked at one time. It is unclear why it was removed years ago.

Also, the City Link bus service in Edmond has been successfully established between downtown and Edmond. They are engaging in the demonstrator in a more proactive way as well. Apparently, the point of origin for many of the City Link commuters is from an area next to the siding described above. So it should be a bit easier to get these individuals to "switch over" for a day. Accommodations are being planned for the "Downtown end" to get people to where they need to go.

Thanks for that additional information, that makes sense. I am glad that they are making strides with this as I think it will be a great opportunity to get this issue some much needed attention and allow folks to see what it can be like. I am hoping for huge success during the demonstration!!!

does anyone know when this trial will be?

does anyone know when this trial will be?

I sounds as if the earliest might be in the spring. That is assuming that permits and funds are raised for the operators, radio communications, and inspections. Anything operating on such tracks takes a great deal of coordination not only with the operator, but with inspectors as well.

I have been told that negotiations are underway to work this stuff out.

In the mean time, there will be some exciting announcements upcoming regarding rail transit in the near future.

Man I love the way that sounds "some exciting announcements upcoming regarding rail transit in the near future." So now that you have us dying to know you gotta give us a general idea of how long we are going to have to wait to hear what is coming down the line!!!! I am so excited to have our great city seriously considering the implementation of both streetcar, light rail, commuter rail, and I know that both Texas and Kansas are working on HSR initiatives that include OKC as a major stop, what a time to be alive in this great city.

If this interests anyone... I made this map to show what corridors downtown have the most bus routes currently.
Red = 1 bus route
Orange = 2 bus routes
Green = 3+ bus routes
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/busroutes.jpg

33rd and Robinson... now and then...
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/33nRobinson.jpg

Nice comparison. Do you live over there?

No... I live in the Plaza District. I just searched out the buildings on Google street view.

SEPTEMBER 15, 2010

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Council Approval of MAPS 3 Transit Funding Moves Regional Hub Study Forward

Oklahoma City, OK – Representatives for Oklahomans for New Transportation Alternatives Coalition (OnTrac) and Modern Transit Project (MTP) announced today that the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (ACOG) has received final approval to proceed with a major study to determine the best location for an Intermodal Transit Hub. The hub will serve a planned future rail transit system, commuter buses, a modern streetcar, and other forms of transit for the Central Oklahoma Area.

OnTrac Chairman Marion Hutchison said the final approval of the contract was approved on Tuesday by the City Council, Oklahoma City. He said the $300,000 study is to begin immediately and will be completed by May 2011. Mr. Hutchison said Jacobs Engineering Group Inc., an internationally-recognized consulting firm with considerable expertise in the development of intermodal rail transit hubs was awarded the contract.

“After much debate these last few years about the need for a regional rail transit hub, we are excited to see this important study being undertaken,” Mr. Hutchison said. “For the Central Oklahoma Area to remain competitive with other peer cities in the region, it’s imperative we develop an effective rail transit system. A well-designed and properly-located hub is the cornerstone of that system.”

MTP director Jeff Bezdek said the “Oklahoma City has taken a lead for the development of a regional transit system with the passage of MAPS 3. This hub will potentially provide a nexus for rail connections to Norman, Edmond, Midwest City, Del City, and possibly other areas as they come online in the future. The hub location will also serve as the grounding rod for the modern streetcar system approved in the MAPS 3 ballot initiative.” “We need to determine the best location for a hub so that we may finalize a route for the streetcar that voters approved,” Bezdek said.

BACKGROUND

The Intermodal Transit Hub Study is administrated by (ACOG) Association of Central Oklahoma Governments and (COTPA) Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority. Funding for the $300,000 study is provided with ACOG providing $94,600, COTPA $94,600, ODOT $50,000, and the City of OKC $59,800.

MAPS FUNDING

The $59,800 expenditure approved today (September 14, 2010) by the Oklahoma City Council, is one of the very first formal expenditures approved by the MAPS 3 Citizens Oversight Committee. $10 million dollars is provided for development of an Intermodal Transit Hub or other commuter rail transit infrastructure. The $59,800 will be taken from these funds.

An additional $120 million dollars is provided for a Modern Streetcar System that will connect with the hub and provide 5-6 miles of rail transit service for the downtown area.

How exciting!

After years of wishing it - rail in OKC is finally going to happen again.

Are there any sites that come to mind for a Hub?

I'm sure Okctalk could come up with a Hub site for much less than $300k.

Either way, this is great news. Also cool that the first MAPS3 money has been spent toward transit.

Are there any sites that come to mind for a Hub?

I'm sure Okctalk could come up with a Hub site for much less than #300k.

Either way, this is great news. Also cool that the first MAPS3 money has been spent toward transit.

Somewhere in this thread is the idea to tear down the Myriad after the convention centers is built, break up the super block, and build a hub facility on the eastern half of the property and connect it with Santa Fe station. You can make the $300,000 check out to CASH.

Although it's been suggested for the CC, and I think that's a reasonable suggestion, the lumberyard south of U-Haul also comes to mind as a hub location. It's close to both N-S and E-W lines and convenient for Bricktown and downtown. Being located there would probably increase impetus for redevelopment of the cotton gin area as well.

The preliminary stuff outlined by the three consultants that bid for the job highlighted almost any open area from 4th Street to the new Boulevard. The proposed Chamber site, the big parking lot on the West side of the Walnut Street Bridge, Santa Fe Station area, and the Lumberyard.

Personally, with only $10 million available for hub development, I really am vying for Santa Fe. I hope that is scores well in the technical analysis. It is the most centralized location for a hub with direct access to Bricktown and the CBD. However, it comes down to how much rubber tired infrastructure we want to be able to accommodate. Rubber tire travel is what will make or break the re-utilization of that great art deco building.

Rubber tire travel is what will make or break the re-utilization of that great art deco building.

What do you mean by rubber tire travel (buses, taxis)? If a hub facility is going to accommodate commuter rail, street-car, city buses, regional/national buses, taxis, hotel shuttle, horse drawn carriages, administration offices, command and control operations, retail services, transit police facilities, etc. etc. etc. - we are going to need something bigger than Santa Fe station. We are going to have to utilize land the COX center is sitting on.

Build and new convention center and tear down COX. Then remove the super block. This will create 4 blocks of land. The two eastern blocks can be used for the transit hub with either sky bridges or underground tunnels connecting to the rail platforms at Santa Fe. The two remaining west blocks can be sold to recoup some of the cost. EK Gaylord would need to be reduced from 6 lanes to 4 lanes to accommodate the street car loading area.

Also remember that we want this to anticipate the future and the reality that HSR will be eventually connecting us to Texas and north to Kansas City and or Tulsa and St. Louis. Siemens has been advertizing like crazy in all the major airports and I hope that we take notice. The advertizement states that economies grow at 220 mph, and there is a shot of one of thier trains.

With the most likely connections for HSR being North/South we are going to have to factor that into the equation. We all know that there is a great deal of freight traffic on the existing north/south lines and so likely with the advent of commuter rail and eventually HSR we are going to have to expand the number or rails that come through the city. These should all be constraints in how they evaluate the potential Hub location. To build something that failed to address these issues could retard the implementation and even make it too cost prohibitive to implement in a timely manner.

I remember an earlier thread mentioning there are tunnels from the Santa Fe leading to Bricktown. I would assume those tunnels lead to the parking lot north of Bricktown, and if so, there's plenty of land there for expansion of the building. It might be difficult getting buses or taxis back there, though. It would probably be the cheapest land available.

What do you mean by rubber tire travel (buses, taxis)? If a hub facility is going to accommodate commuter rail, street-car, city buses, regional/national buses, taxis, hotel shuttle, horse drawn carriages, administration offices, command and control operations, retail services, transit police facilities, etc. etc. etc. - we are going to need something bigger than Santa Fe station. We are going to have to utilize land the COX center is sitting on.

Build and new convention center and tear down COX. Then remove the super block. This will create 4 blocks of land. The two eastern blocks can be used for the transit hub with either sky bridges or underground tunnels connecting to the rail platforms at Santa Fe. The two remaining west blocks can be sold to recoup some of the cost. EK Gaylord would need to be reduced from 6 lanes to 4 lanes to accommodate the street car loading area.

I appreciate your enthusiasm and will try to comment on this in further detail later. But simply put, we have $10 million. The preliminary assessments that I have seen show that Santa Fe can be expanded to handle nearly a full load of commuter trains and high speed rail. There is a fairly large space behind the East wall that can be expanded to accommodate more rails.

Yes Betts, there are tunnels going through the station that could open up directly into Bricktown.

When I reference rubber tire, I mean all of the above. The Fixed Guideway Study calls for Bus Rapid Transit and more city buses (enhanced bus). If you want revenue to help with facility operating expenses, you often consider leasing space to taxi fleets and Greyhound. My father did this with the hub he managed in Texas.

The more rubber tire means more parking and connectivity infrastructure. Santa Fe's scoring will depend on whether we want these features now, or whether we are willing to take them in stages with more expansive infrastructure such as you have suggested.

Personally, I would like us to make strides with transit sooner rather than later. Because of the Cox, Zios Parking lot, U Haul Building area, and Lumberyard, it might be even possible to build out a "Transit Campus" over time. The one thing that is somewhat irrefutable, is that the N/S alignment of the existing rails makes for the most efficient commuter rail system. So the question is, where do you build along it?

That is $10 million of MAPS money correct? Is the city not going to try and get state and federal funds?

Kerry: the key there is TRYING to get... No guarantees. Just as with the Streetcars, this time around, we aren't depending on outside funding to complete (as was the case with the original MAPS). IF it comes, that is great, but don't depend on it.

If they think they are going to build a multimodal transit hub for just $10 million they are crazy, or are expecting to build a very small hub. Just moving an electrical substation is going to cost in the $30 million range.

I know this is at the far end of the scale in the other direction, but the new Berlin main train station cost 700 million euros. While that is an extreme station and cost $1 billion, we are expecting to pay just 1% of that. Things are cheaper in OKC but I don't know if they are that much cheaper.

Kerry I share your concerns that the amount allocated to date seems far too little to do what I think would be appropriate for a fully functioning inter modal hub. That said I would be satisfied if they spent additional design dollars upfront to develop and design a comprehensive multi-modal transportation hub that was truly world class and integrated the Santa Fe station as a kind of gateway from our past to the new and larger facility of the future, that was modern and meets the demand and reflects the technology and sleekness of the high speed trains that we will eventually have running through the city.

They could do it as a phased plan where only so much is built that accommodates the street car, and existing freight lines and needed commuter rail, but with the larger portion of the terminal that would address the HSR and some of the other goodies designed and approved pending the federal or state funds to execute them. Sometimes the Fed dollars are easier to get once some investment has been made and plans are in place so they can visualize the impact the dollars will have.

The key is that we don't hamstring ourselves with a solution that tries to do too much with far too little. I am all for prudence with funds and am a firm believer that great design is not always tied to vast sums of money, rather my argument is that the scope of the transportation hub is so aggressive and all of it is needed, so lets design according to what we want to have in place as the end result and then develop a phased plan for implementation so that it can be realized and not patched together with less than desired results.