i'm guessing i need to try it again. i rode it free, and then in the first week of it being pay. but haven't rode it since. perhaps i need to plan a group streetcar brewery and pub crawl with my friends. lol

For sure. It's a much better experience. I think several businesses along the loop still have free ride cards fyi if you want to utilize those.

insightful response... but the point he is getting at is that you have to continue to build infrastructure. and yes, that infrastructure may eventually become outdated one day, but if i have my choice, i'd rather put my money into diversifying my transportation infrastructure into multiple modes of transit, so that you have the best chance of both keeping up with demand, as well as pushing things in a forward direction, because just the idea that we should spend money on it, because it will someday become obsolete can be applied to anything, and thus isn't a valid argument on any level.

also, what i was trying to get to back in may and also with the article, is that you are right that we don't know what the future will hold... and neither do the companies that are making these claims, because they have been making these type claims since the 1950's... and they are never based on anything actually measured and thought out, they are all just numbers they pull out of thin air... and we should not make financial decisions based upon those number.

It was a pathetic analogy and I won't waste my time explaining why. I've got a lot of better things to do.

Technology is going to be disruptive to transportation.

Have a good day !

It was a pathetic analogy and I won't waste my time explaining why. I've got a lot of better things to do.

Technology is going to be disruptive to transportation.

Have a good day !

great contributions as always... i agree that it will be disruptive... if you use the part of that definition that is innovative or groundbreaking... i have agreed with you... in fact, technology has already been disruptive to transportation... always has been, always will be. i don't disagree with that at all... advancements in technology are constantly improving and changing our current modes of transportation... but have yet to create a new mode since the wright brothers. and i don't see that changing drastically anytime in the near future.

but you have your thoughts, and you aren't going to even listen to anyone elses opinions... much like back in march where i posted a podcast debate about this very subject with experts in the fields discussing both sides to self driving cars and the future of transportation... but you didn't seem interested in someones elses opinion then, and doesn't seem like it now.

we can continue to have an actual discussion and talk about the actual issues and merits and concerns regarding investments in current technologies, as well as making sure we are prepared for what might be coming in the future. i would love to have that conversation, on this thread, as i think it's a significant discussion to have regarding the future of transit in OKC and how or if the streetcar can or should fit into that.

i also agree with what Lutz said in that article i posted in that last paragraph... the days of the automobile as we know it are nearing an end... and we have to be investing now into infrastructure to accommodate that.. doing nothing, as you suggested, just puts us even further behind the curve... so if you don't want to invest 100's of millions of dollars into RTD and streetcar, then what should we spend money on to accommodate potential changes in the transportation market in the near future?

you also have a good day!

It was a pathetic analogy and I won't waste my time explaining why. I've got a lot of better things to do.

Technology is going to be disruptive to transportation.

Have a good day !
I’m not agreeing not disagreeing with GoGators but he isn’t all wrong. Though until we can get virtual sky highways for flying cars which I suspect is a minimum of 15 years away we will have flying cars only for the rich or mass transit. I do wish they would study more flying mass transit in major metros like SoCal for regional commuting purposes which I think would be a huge success.

Until then we need to focus on driverless cars which can have speed limits on highways well over 100 MPH and city streets speed limits can increase which will increase capacity allowing more cars an hour to move through. This can warrant lane reductions in some areas and more space for pedestrians. The safety aspect of autonomous cars can’t be overstated. This could be the new industrial revolution. IMO, this is more impactful than flying cars as it is likely to be a reality sooner for the masses. Also factor in freeways can have more lanes by removing shoulders as shoulders won’t be needed for driverless cars since they can communicate with each other and move out of the obstructed lane well before the obstruction.

I think we also have to look at the reality that moving to driver less cars will take quite a long transition. Unless the cars are extremely cheap people are going to continue to buy cheaper cars. In places like Oklahoma with low usage/amount of public transit, a car is a necessity for work.

I think we also have to look at the reality that moving to driver less cars will take quite a long transition. Unless the cars are extremely cheap people are going to continue to buy cheaper cars. In places like Oklahoma with low usage/amount of public transit, a car is a necessity for work.

there also is the legal arguments that will need to be litigated that could take years regarding driver less cars... remember that AI still only does what it is inherently programmed to do, and those programming decisions will result in people wanting to blame the companies for those decisions. the example that i have heard several experts in the AI field and driverless car fields have used is the following

if a driver less car is presented with an immediate decision to either hit a baby in a stroller, or drive the car into a wall, which will it do? if the AI determines to hit the baby in the stroller to save the driver, the family of the baby will bring a suit, and is the company liable... if the AI determines to save the baby in the stroller and hits the wall and it kills the driver, the family of the driver will bring a suit, and is the company liable?

that is the piece with all of this AI tech that hasn't been properly discussed and legislated or litigated... and that will have to happen before driver less cars become mainstream... and since we are now involving city councils, state legislatures, us congress, and courts.... the process will take years, and probably many years...

the liability of these devices might even end up preventing them from becoming mainstream in my lifetime. we just don't know yet

As I've posted before about driverless cars, they need excellent infrastructure to operate - fully visible painted lane stripes, smooth(ish) streets, fully-operational traffic lights, etc. Given OKC's state of things regarding these, how long do you think it'll be before we get driverless cars here? Other cities are better, but there's still a lot of things that have to happen before driverless cars are anywhere close to being adopted by even 1% of the population. I doubt I'll be alive when it happens. I seriously doubt flying cars will happen in your lifetime, much less in 15 years, Panda.

there also is the legal arguments that will need to be litigated that could take years regarding driver less cars... remember that AI still only does what it is inherently programmed to do, and those programming decisions will result in people wanting to blame the companies for those decisions. the example that i have heard several experts in the AI field and driverless car fields have used is the following

if a driver less car is presented with an immediate decision to either hit a baby in a stroller, or drive the car into a wall, which will it do? if the AI determines to hit the baby in the stroller to save the driver, the family of the baby will bring a suit, and is the company liable... if the AI determines to save the baby in the stroller and hits the wall and it kills the driver, the family of the driver will bring a suit, and is the company liable?

that is the piece with all of this AI tech that hasn't been properly discussed and legislated or litigated... and that will have to happen before driver less cars become mainstream... and since we are now involving city councils, state legislatures, us congress, and courts.... the process will take years, and probably many years...

the liability of these devices might even end up preventing them from becoming mainstream in my lifetime. we just don't know yet

I agree. Say a dog runs out in front of a driverless car, and it has the choice of either 1) hit the dog, 2) swerve and hit the car next to it, or 3) swerve the other way and hit pedestrians on the sidewalk. What should it do? I think the correct response is probably to hit the dog. But what if it's not a dog? What if it's a little kid chasing a ball? Can the driverless car tell the difference between a little kid and a dog? Or between a baby stroller and a shopping cart?

I would bet significant amounts of money that driverless cars are at least 40 years away.

Just curious if anyone has done a study on the theoretical demand for mass trans in OKC and what that system actually looks like? To be used does access need to be a block away...2...10?

Yep, multiple studies. Timeline of the most recent regional transit effort here: http://www.acogok.org/rta/
http://www.gometro.org/fgp/
http://www.acogok.org/commuter-corridors-regional-transit-rail-mpo/
http://www.acogok.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Central-OK-GO_Executive-Summary_FINAL-for-PRINT.pdf

I agree. Say a dog runs out in front of a driverless car, and it has the choice of either 1) hit the dog, 2) swerve and hit the car next to it, or 3) swerve the other way and hit pedestrians on the sidewalk. What should it do? I think the correct response is probably to hit the dog. But what if it's not a dog? What if it's a little kid chasing a ball? Can the driverless car tell the difference between a little kid and a dog? Or between a baby stroller and a shopping cart?

I would bet significant amounts of money that driverless cars are at least 40 years away.

The car could decide to engage the automatic brake. This video is six years old and the technology is vastly improved since then. Watch at least the second half:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ridS396W2BY

With a proper infrastructure of sensors and cameras, it may be possible to significantly reduce or even eliminate the dilemma. Let's hope so, at least.

What are the terms for the bet? Driverless cars are already a thing so presumably you mean mass adoption.

Whether or not driverless cars become mainstream, we still need to reduce our reliance on automobiles.

Absolutely!

whether or not driverless cars become mainstream, we still need to reduce our reliance on automobiles.

this!!!!

Whether or not driverless cars become mainstream, we still need to reduce our reliance on automobiles.i disagree.

I-35 is going to be a problem 20 years from now.

i-35 is a problem now.
fify

Any updates on the streetcar? I really don't care about reading the same post over and over... driverless cars are years away...

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streeetcar071019a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streeetcar071019b.jpg


This.

Any updates on the streetcar? I really don't care about reading the same post over and over... driverless cars are years away...

Agreed re let's not lose sleep over driver-less cars. This article came out literally two days ago. It's a long way off.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90374083/for-years-automakers-wildly-overpromised-on-self-driving-cars-and-electric-vehicles-what-now

Maybe we should make a separate thread for driver-less discussion. I follow that world closely.

If the Devon fiasco happened in June, then one can only imagine what those numbers might have been for that month. I will say that I am thrilled with the performance of the air conditioning systems thus far.

The Devon incident happened on May 15 and the Streetcar resumed service on May 21, per their Twitter.

Appreciated this “next stop” screen on the Expo Line in Los Angels today. Why don’t more streetcars have a screen like? It’s really helpful for new riders.

15419

Agreed.

Also why is our streetcar route not on Google Maps yet? If you pick a destination somewhere along the route and pick walking or public transport, it has no idea the streetcar exists. It gives directions to tell you to go to bus stops.

Appreciated this “next stop” screen on the Expo Line in Los Angels today. Why don’t more streetcars have a screen like? It’s really helpful for new riders.

15419


We will be installing Next Stop soon!

The Devon incident happened on May 15 and the Streetcar resumed service on May 21, per their Twitter.

Who knows how much damage that did. I know we had hard costs that remain unresolved.

We will be installing Next Stop soon!

Nice!

Surprised actually that OKC doesn't already have it, since we have brand new streetcars I'd presume they'd already have the modern tech built in.

Surprised actually that OKC doesn't already have it, since we have brand new streetcars I'd presume they'd already have the modern tech built in.

We have the automated verbal announcements which are a integrated technology to the vehicle itself. Next Bus is a third party system contracted for separately and integrated into the broader EMBARK system.

Yes, I understand about the online/mobile tracking and that it's third party.

But I mean the signage in the streetcar, indicating Next Stop is ___. Shouldn't that already be incorporated as well since the verbal are there? Just curious (expectation) since ours are brand spanking new.

Yes, I understand about the online/mobile tracking and that it's third party.

But I mean the signage in the streetcar, indicating Next Stop is ___. Shouldn't that already be incorporated as well since the verbal are there? Just curious (expectation) since ours are brand spanking new.

I don’t know why it was delayed. All I know is that it is coming.

Shouldn't that already be incorporated as well since the verbal are there? Just curious (expectation) since ours are brand spanking new.

Just to clarify, I re-read this thread, we do announce the upcoming stops with digital signage and audible announcements throughout the streetcars. It's the Nextbus platform that I was referring to.

ok, great thx

Here is a link to the Facebook invite for the upcoming MAPS 4 transit presentation. This would be the meeting to attend if you want to advocate for bus and streetcar improvements.

https://www.facebook.com/okcstreetcarcommittee/?ref=bookmarks

Fridays and Saturdays continue to be the big days:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar073119a.jpg

And it looks like Sunday, which wasn't going to have service, is pretty clearly the third most popular day.

To me, this shows just how vacant Downtown is from the residential perspective. Time to build more residential and residential mixed use!

I am not sure where that report is from, but do they have one showing fares bought against the ridership? I am guessing the ridership count is the counting devices on the doors that quantify enters and exits.

Riding without paying is super easy to do. Which I am not saying is a bad thing, but it just shows how dumb the fare actually is. I am pretty sure I have witnessed many times people who don't even realize there is a fare, they just hop on.

I am not sure where that report is from, but do they have one showing fares bought against the ridership? I am guessing the ridership count is the counting devices on the doors that quantify enters and exits.

Riding without paying is super easy to do. Which I am not saying is a bad thing, but it just shows how dumb the fare actually is. I am pretty sure I have witnessed many times people who don't even realize there is a fare, they just hop on.

If you watched me just "hop on," it's because I pay my fare through TokenTransit. But yeah, I'm sure there are many who just hop on. I haven't been challenged since about week 2 of it being open. I'm sure it's more of a hassle for the operators to deal with citing a freeloader than it is to just ignore the issue.

I rode the streetcar in Detroit last week, same Brookville(?) vehicles as ours except they have a fare box onboard and their enforcement folks are on top of it. This little lady went up to every single person that got on board and asked to see their pass and if they didn't have one, walked them over to the fare box and explained how to use it. Unless you got on at one stop and off at the next, she was going to get you eventually, even if it took a few stops to get through all the people. They also had an app (different than Token), which I used.

If you watched me just "hop on," it's because I pay my fare through TokenTransit. But yeah, I'm sure there are many who just hop on. I haven't been challenged since about week 2 of it being open. I'm sure it's more of a hassle for the operators to deal with citing a freeloader than it is to just ignore the issue.

Yes, I should clarify that this is persons who appear to not have done that, either. I mean the app tells you to present your fare to the driver when you board (lol, what?). So I am talking about people who look like they just get on, no paper ticket and don't have their phone ready for anything. I am not accusing them of not paying, just assuming that it appears to be a lot more common than one may think.

Personally I think the app is the way to go. Although I have never been asked to produce a fare, ever. And I have ridden it basically weekly.

Yes, I should clarify that this is persons who appear to not have done that, either. I mean the app tells you to present your fare to the driver when you board (lol, what?). So I am talking about people who look like they just get on, no paper ticket and don't have their phone ready for anything. I am not accusing them of not paying, just assuming that it appears to be a lot more common than one may think.

Personally I think the app is the way to go. Although I have never been asked to produce a fare, ever. And I have ridden it basically weekly.

I've never been asked here in OKC on a weekday but I have on a weekend.

I have an annual pass and at this point all of the fare enforcers know who I am so I very rarely have to show my pass to anyone.

Fridays and Saturdays continue to be the big days:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar073119a.jpg

Ran some numbers based on July:

Best day avg 109 riders per hour
Worst day avg 24 riders per hour

Monthly avg riders per operating hour is 55.3 riders

This is based on if had 1 car and using numbers posted. If we have 5 cars operating all day long then divide my numbers by 5 to get average riders per car per hour. Its not very good for the costs.

4 days open 18 hours
2 days open 20 hours
1 day open 15 hours
127 hours of operation per week
18.14 hours per day average
18.14 x 31 (Jul) = 562 hours

The streetcar is never going to see it's full value proposition if we don't have more residents downtown. There's a reason it kills it on the weekend and suffers during the week. Add 10,000 residents downtown and those numbers look a whole lot better. The chart basically displays the desirability of the weather by month, with May being the exception due to the Devon fiasco (and Thunder getting bounced early).

Yes, I should clarify that this is persons who appear to not have done that, either. I mean the app tells you to present your fare to the driver when you board (lol, what?).

I've not yet seen a driver interact with the passengers outside of the couple of times I ended up visiting with the driver after someone parked on the track and shut the whole system down.

[/quote] So I am talking about people who look like they just get on, no paper ticket and don't have their phone ready for anything. I am not accusing them of not paying, just assuming that it appears to be a lot more common than one may think.[/quote]

Again, that'd be me, because I'd be able to show the graphic on my phone if asked, but I never expect to be asked because that hasn't happened to me outside of the first couple of weeks the thing was opened.

The streetcar is never going to see it's full value proposition if we don't have more residents downtown. There's a reason it kills it on the weekend and suffers during the week. Add 10,000 residents downtown and those numbers look a whole lot better. The chart basically displays the desirability of the weather by month, with May being the exception due to the Devon fiasco (and Thunder getting bounced early).

I would argue that our MAPS director, public works, and traffic engineering did significant damage to how the streetcar was perceived by many first time users by not allowing us to integrate Automatic Signal Priority into the original design. Undoubtedly, delays caused by cars parked incorrectly affected reliability of the streetcar as well. However, they pretty much had to be forced through negative pressure to allow us to implement it. It has worked wonderfully and the streetcar is generally an efficient and comfortable way to get around downtown. This week I got to ride it regularly into the weekend. Streetcars were often at capacity. Regarding residential units, yes. As more residential units come online, it will help create broader weekday demand. However, keep in mind that this is a "last mile" system and demand was supposed to be provided not only locally, but by influxes from commuter trains that have yet to have been installed and are still years away.

One interesting comparison is to compare streetcar usage to the usage of the entire OKC Embark bus system. It has significantly increased the monthly public transit usage totals.

I've not yet seen a driver interact with the passengers outside of the couple of times I ended up visiting with the driver after someone parked on the track and shut the whole system down.

It really depends on the driver but has been a regular complaint by me to the system manager. This weekend I saw and heard several operators interact with riders and people on the platform. It was encouraging.

Why do you want the driver to interact with passengers ? It is not your school bus driver.
Except making some announcement regarding the route or delays.

Why do you want the driver to interact with passengers ? It is not your school bus driver.
Except making some announcement regarding the route or delays.

Yeah many cities I've been to you can get fined for contacting the operator unless its an emergency.

The only time I have even heard the driver speak was when they announced a dwelling period. And each time, the driver came out and talked with passengers near the front while they stretched their legs.

Hopefully, the new convention center can attract some conventions and bump those weekday numbers a bit.

Why do you want the driver to interact with passengers ? It is not your school bus driver.
Except making some announcement regarding the route or delays.

We have had complaints in the past about people feeling stranded on board not fully knowing what was going on. I have asked EMBARK to have the streetcar operators explain to the passengers that the Dewey Avenue stop is a designated dwell location. The operator can take their bathroom break there as well as correct for timing issues between trains. There is also often confusion on platforms between "B" and "D" Lines. Our exterior speaker system allows the operator to announce to the people on the platform which train they are. We also will have people trying to use the ticket machines and pay for a group of people. Operators are instructed to tell the people to board and use the app or pay when they depart. Otherwise, they have to wait 10 - 15 minutes for the next train. Other communications related to incorrectly parked cars, emergency situations ahead on the track, and other issues warrant communication. I want the operators to acknowledge people at the platform, crossing near trains on crosswalks, etc. There are many genuine reaosns to communicate. And generally, communication is one-way through the interior and exterior speaker system. It is just part of good customer service.

Hopefully, the new convention center can attract some conventions and bump those weekday numbers a bit.

I actually think CC/OMNI tourists will be its best calling, and numbers will go up once they open

It totally makes sense for a driver to make a quick statement, "We are going to take a three minute break here to allow..." I remember the first time the driver stopped I didn't know what was going on. A 5 second announcement would have cleared it up.

hmm... i ride all the time and have found the drivers to be quite communicative, especially when they need to dwell or if something is blocking the road. I even hear drivers giving advice on how to ride and where to go after they get off from time to time.

I actually think CC/OMNI tourists will be its best calling, and numbers will go up once they open

I think you're right. The spike in June had a lot to do with the Beta convention at the Cox for what seemed like 10 days long. The trains were packed for those two weeks. I rode it around 8-9pm on a Monday night during the convention and it was packed full of conference participants, most of whom got on or off at the Fed. Courthouse stop/Memorial stop to visit the Memorial.

I have seen a few people from out of town not realize that the Fed Courthouse stop is also a stop for the Memorial. I can see how the map on board is deceiving since there is only one stop called Memorial. An announcement or something on the line map to say this stop also serves the Memorial would be helpful. If I overhear a group talking about visiting the Memorial and they don't get up to get off at the Courthouse stop I will inform them to get off instead of riding all the way around to get off at the Memorial stop.

I have seen a few people from out of town not realize that the Fed Courthouse stop is also a stop for the Memorial. I can see how the map on board is deceiving since there is only one stop called Memorial. An announcement or something on the line map to say this stop also serves the Memorial would be helpful. If I overhear a group talking about visiting the Memorial and they don't get up to get off at the Courthouse stop I will inform them to get off instead of riding all the way around to get off at the Memorial stop.

Thanks for your input. We are adding it to our list to the voice artist and it will be recorded and automated.

I have seen a few people from out of town not realize that the Fed Courthouse stop is also a stop for the Memorial. I can see how the map on board is deceiving since there is only one stop called Memorial. An announcement or something on the line map to say this stop also serves the Memorial would be helpful. If I overhear a group talking about visiting the Memorial and they don't get up to get off at the Courthouse stop I will inform them to get off instead of riding all the way around to get off at the Memorial stop.

Great stuff. I had that thought while riding 'It would be nice to see some points of interest listed somehow next to the map or something for folks that aren't necessarily familiar with where they are. Exit here for the OKC Memorial and Museum. Exit here for the art museum and civic center. Exit here...'

I agree that would be nice.. like similar systems where it says this is the courthouse stop, also servicing etc