We absolutely can reign is sprawl and become a decent city. It would just take a fraction of the effort it took to create the sprawling mess. I do not believe in throwing good money after bad. Just because OKC sprawls doesn't mean the city has to go broke making it easier to sprawl even more. Just because it has been the norm doesn't mean we cant learn from our mistakes.

Cheap land and cheap development makes a cheap city.

So you would prevent Paycom from building HQ in far NW OKC and its 3,000 jobs? We are already sprawled out and need to learn to coexist. I love OKC and all its offerings. If I wanted a urban city I’d go to one already that way. The fact we are both city and country is what makes OKC great. You have choices of lifestyle yet are still each vested as a city. I actually support every MAPS project we did except SC so its still a great place to live and work. Seeing places like Chisolm Creek sprout up outside of downtown is great too. A person now has choices! It does not make Bricktown bad it enhances choices for people to use.

My view now is we did remake our city with all the MAPS but are now at a key point. We don’t need to be like every other city, so I think we need to move forward fiscally smartly. Even with no more MAPS we will have hefty bills to pay to upkeep what we built. I think we need to scale down the MAPS timeline and have it as a 2 year vote and less projects per 2 year cycle. This gives us flexibility to adapt quickly to changing conditions. If we enter a recession we don’t want to be staring at 10 years worth of MAPS taxes. It would allow us to more quickly adjust projects/votes based on more near term needs. SC was approved in 2009, 10 years ago! At that time our core was lots different than now. So by making these shorter term we can adjust much faster to needs. Once we vote for MAPS its locked in for 8-10 years!

Anyways, just my thoughts. I really do like our city and am proud to tell others where I live. I don’t want to be Dallas or any other city I want to be OKC. When people look at vacations they want different. We are different and should embrace it. The SC will be great as a tourist item.

You're all wrong. :D

OKC is one of the most sprawling cities in the country. But that doesn't mean that we have to keep doing it that way. It's not a contest to see who can sprawl the most. We need to focus on rebuilding the core of our city. That doesn't mean we should just focus on downtown, but it does mean we need to stop encouraging people from building out on like NW 150th and Morgan Rd.

America fell in love with cars and built accordingly. But now we're seeing costs that come from a style of development that no one in the history of the universe had ever tried before. It turns out sprawl has a lot of downside that nobody knew before. OKC embraced sprawl like basically no one else, and right now there are no options other than that. We need a comprehensive growth plan for the next 50 years. It needs to limit any additional sprawl as much as possible, it needs to promote redevelopment of our inner city, and it needs to provide transportation for rich and poor alike.

As I see it, the streetcar should be a tourist/visitor/entertainment circulator and development promoter. Basically we run the streetcar to places where we want to encourage high density development, to places where we want visitors and guests to be able to easily visit, and service a handful of neighborhoods that happen to be in between those places. It's the showpiece. Run it up to the Capitol, run it over to OCU, have a spur that runs up to Penn Square Mall and Chesapeake. Have another that goes down to Capitol Hill, Wheeler District, and then runs through the Stockyards area to terminate at Will Rogers. Visitors to OKC should be able to take the grand tour by getting on the streetcar. Hit all the high points.

A better bus system will service poor people and outlying areas. There's no point in running the streetcar to NE 36th and Lottie, or all the way out past MacArthur. Let the buses handle those areas. Those people need public transit, but these are not really the areas we want to highlight.

Bike lanes, sidewalks, and jogging trails are important, and they're relatively cheap. I don't care if you're a fatass sitting at your keyboard saying "what a waste", we build things like that in the hopes that someday you'll lose weight (or eventually you'll be replaced by somebody who will use it). We need connections throughout the whole city.

A regional transit system is also important. It's basically mandatory for a city our size. We're a definite outlier by not having it. Some people will say "great, we didn't fall into that trap!" Those people are wrong. When you are setting the world on fire by being the greatest and most innovative, you can afford to buck the trends. When you are fighting to get noticed and rise above mediocre, you don't mouth off about how you're so much wiser than everyone else by not partaking in this latest "fad".

Let's see how well the streetcar operates once the convention center complex is finished and many of the roads like Oklahoma City Boulevard becomes operational.

Noticed that between 12 noon & 1 p.m., it appears (sight from my vehicle) to be down times for the streetcar ridership. Once we get past all the major street construction; MAPS V will be a good time to evaluate streetcar expansion.

The issue is that sprawl is a part of being such a huge city, and the people living 50 feet from the city limits have the same needs and rights to city services as the people living in downtown OKC. Both groups are citizens of OKC, and both groups are living inside the same city limits.

Streetcars don't cause the same kind of sprawl as automobiles. And the "sprawl" they do cause, tends to still be walkable, dense, and more sustainable.
They cause sprawl. So now if we’re going to change the argument that sprawl is bad to only a certain kind of sprawl is bad then so be it. That isn’t the narrative that is often pushed by pro urbanism advocates however and certainly not COGs and MTAs which are grappling with extreme infrastructure costs all around.

Why is Citylab a joke? The articles I posted seem to be accurate and valid. I never said anything about the conspiracy you reference, and the articles I posted say that the streetcar's demise is *not* a giant conspiracy by GM and the government, so you actually agree with Citylab, even though you think it's a joke. :doh:
Citylab is a joke because just about all of their content is “streetcars, bike lanes, and road diets along with the sprawl repair manual will fix everything.” Same thing with Streetsblog and often Curbed(though I like curbed a bit). They spin numbers to suit their agenda much like constantly pushing the induced demand fallacy at every change they get.

I will agree with buses. We should have a top notched bus system that people can be proud of and want to ride.

Things could change regarding sprawl. We don't know how economic conditions will look 15,30,45 years into the future. Personal automobile hasn't been around that long in human history and most people in the world can't afford to enjoy this benefit. Not to get too political, but one thing Democrats and Republicans seem to indirectly agree on is that standard of living is slowly going to crap. Hopefully, both sides are wrong on this.
Mode share even in Europe is switching to cars in many cases, IIRC. That is certainly true in BRIC counties. The world is moving out of poverty. The rich might be getting richer but so are the poor. The poor aren’t getting poorer.

He doesn't like these types of publications because they are for the most part anti-sprawl, anti -highway, pro mass transit publications.
Correct. There is also a way to advocate for mass transit without alienating a large potential pool of riders as well.

Yeah, been tired of his single-lane (well, eighteen-lane) mind for a while, need to push back sometimes...

PluPan, did you even read the articles?


Did you read my reply? I said I read all of those articles long before you posted them here. I read Citylab and Streetsblog almost daily despite my disdain for them. That must be my single lane mind trying to get both sides of the picture.

You make a good point and I’ve never been a fan of that logic which I agree many people possess of excepting public transit to pay for itself. Me being pro freeway, pro sprawl, etc. I’ll almost always get those who agree with me and respond to my comments saying something like that which I’ll always call them out on. But at the same time many transit advocates will attempt to spin that argument to support rail lines and the like claiming freeways are to expensive to build and don’t pay for themselves while a billion dollars a mile is slowly becoming the norm for many heavy rail projects in the city with light rail inevitably headed in the same direction.

We do have an issue runaway cost in this country, and a lot of it is from companies learning how to game the system to their benefit.

But there is also the issue that as density increases, cost of infrastructure also increases for many valid reasons. But as density increases, the usage also increases, so cost per person-mile doesn't necessarily also increase.

I'm not against road development, but we as a country need a much more balanced approach, and it is most cost effective to do it before its needed than 20 years after its needed.

If you build streetcar-like stops for the busses on key corridors, and pass ordinances either limiting sprawl, or encouraging density along transit routes, I'd be inclined to agree. However, as it stands now, the streetcar is an excellent way for someone like my mom to try public transit and dig it. If we are to make it as a world class city we have to step up our game in providing alternate modes of transport besides the automobile so that all people feel comfortable and normal using something other than a car.

I agree we need to up our game, and the stops are really nice. But there are a lot of issues with surface rail and I really don't see that many benefits of it over a bus or trolley running the same route, except it seems "cooler" and "funner." Which, maybe that is what you need to get people to start accepting PT here.

I'm not against the SC I think it add something to downtown. I just don't really think it is the right PT system to expand.

The issue is that sprawl is a part of being such a huge city, and the people living 50 feet from the city limits have the same needs and rights to city services as the people living in downtown OKC. Both groups are citizens of OKC, and both groups are living inside the same city limits.
I disagree. You just can't expect OKC to run services over all 600+ sq miles. The costs are exorbitant and completely unsustainable. We've got to get serious about stopping new sprawl.

I know Mayor Holt has talked about the city size issues in the past on his twitter account (https://twitter.com/davidfholt).

There was a thread where he talked about it I think earlier this year but I couldn't find it just now when looking, but this one (https://twitter.com/davidfholt/status/1047956361940754433) about city streets maintenance touches on the problem.


The reason we as a city struggle with streets is the result of a simple formula. 1) We have one of the largest cities by land mass in the US (620+ square miles). Compare that to Boston, which has almost the exact same population but across only 90 square miles).

That disparity in land mass between OKC and other cities means each citizen of OKC bears a greater burden to somehow fund through their tax dollars more lane miles than their fellow citizens in other cities.

I disagree. You just can't expect OKC to run services over all 600+ sq miles. The costs are exorbitant and completely unsustainable. We've got to get serious about stopping new sprawl.

Then don’t be a 600+ sq mile city. There is always an option to de-anex if we don’t want to provide city services to areas of the city. But OKC wants the tax base, so they wouldn’t go that route. Which means that we will always be a sprawling city and need to live with that.

It’s the other side of the same coin that makes it unreasonable for people living within the same city limits complaining when the city catches up with their rural country neighborhood

Pete, can we have a Street Car or Public transit thread that only contains the updates about the system itself, and leave all of the debating to its own thread?

Then don’t be a 600+ sq mile city. There is always an option to de-anex if we don’t want to provide city services to areas of the city. But OKC wants the tax base, so they wouldn’t go that route. Which means that we will always be a sprawling city and need to live with that.

This would be a different question if we could have property tax fund city services, but since we are limited to sales tax for that it's a known problem that far out areas don't necessarily pay for themselves. We're left in a situation where we just have to hope the people living out there drive into the city to spend their money as opposed to in some other sales tax collection area.

IMO what we really should do is aggressively deannex and let everyone who wants the rural life to have the full experience of it, but politically that would never fly.

Im not buying this continual argument that OKC is so spread out and blah blah. Most of the urbanized built-up area of OKC is quite compact actually running N-S. The city limits has a lot of rural and watershed but NOBODY lives there.

So why would there EVER be a conversation about running a train or bus to a rural area? It is for this reason I am a huge advocate for OKC to deannex the entire NE and SE side east of Bryant/Sooner Road keeping Stanley Draper and deannex everything S and W of Mustang. This is 200 square miles of rather 'useless' land that just skews OKC into a sprawl argument when there really isn't one.

OKC should go on a DIET, trim the rural!

I just am not understanding how there's a tax base coming from 200 square miles of rural and watershed areas? what tax base?

trim that and OKC still receives the same tax base, has room for growth, and can now focus its resources on 400 square miles which makes the city much more efficient. Those 200 square miles of rural will NEVER be developed, I'm not sure why they're part of 'the city' to begin with.

The tax base is convenience stores, dollar stores, small businesses, every single cell phone getting service out there, every Amazon delivery, contractors providing physical services, and so on and so forth.

Nobody is arguing that they need a street car, but they do get services and are part of the sprawl and the city isn’t going to let them go.

I’m sure people said the same thing about the cow pastures that Mercy decided to build a hospital on back in the day. The whole Memorial corridor was nothing but farm land that ended up getting developed.

Pete, can we have a Street Car or Public transit thread that only contains the updates about the system itself, and leave all of the debating to its own thread?
Kind of like how I wanted a thread dedicated to construction updates to the boulevard yet it was constantly filled with the typical “i hate this project” “It won’t make people walk” “it’s bad urban design” over and over. Then when I asked this I was told it’s a relevant discussion.

LOL! I feel you though. I won’t respond to anymore off topic posts here.

Sitting at cultivar tonight. Every streetcar I've seen pass by, probably seven or eight, has been absolutely packed with people. Seems to be popular and working That is all.

I’d like to make this clear if I may. As much as I think the streetcar was a waste I believe now we are invested we should expand it and I am happy to see any project succeeding.

Went downtown for the Myriad Gardens Children’s Festival today. Parked at Bass Pro and got the day tickets and rode to the gardens from the East Bricktown stop, then to Midtown for lunch at Fasslers Hall before heading back to Bass Pro. The kids liked riding it as a novelty and it was pretty full with folks who are in town for the National Beta Convention.

Rode the streetcar for the first time today. Wasn’t nuts to butts, but very close. Neat experience, appeared kids riding loved it. Increasing in use and popularity. Cool toy. Paid for.

So how come when I press the blue button indicating I want to get off on the next stop, sometimes the driver stops and opens the doors for me. Other times I have to not only press the blue button, but also press the door open button??? Is this just operator error? Like a training issue?

It doesn't make sense to have the door open button at all. The blue button is the indicator and if people are waiting at the stop, obviously it is time to open the doors. What am I missing here?

So how come when I press the blue button indicating I want to get off on the next stop, sometimes the driver stops and opens the doors for me. Other times I have to not only press the blue button, but also press the door open button??? Is this just operator error? Like a training issue?

It doesn't make sense to have the door open button at all. The blue button is the indicator and if people are waiting at the stop, obviously it is time to open the doors. What am I missing here?

I would say I rather have only the doors people need open to open, to prevent outside elements from coming into the train. Such as on hot or cold days you don't want both doors to open when you only need the one. I believe if the driver opens the doors it is both and not just one. It makes more sense if we had longer trains.

Im not buying this continual argument that OKC is so spread out and blah blah. Most of the urbanized built-up area of OKC is quite compact actually running N-S. The city limits has a lot of rural and watershed but NOBODY lives there.

So why would there EVER be a conversation about running a train or bus to a rural area? It is for this reason I am a huge advocate for OKC to deannex the entire NE and SE side east of Bryant/Sooner Road keeping Stanley Draper and deannex everything S and W of Mustang. This is 200 square miles of rather 'useless' land that just skews OKC into a sprawl argument when there really isn't one.

OKC should go on a DIET, trim the rural!

Neither am I, because the bulk of OKC's population resides withing the core.

We had a streetcar meeting yesterday. Apparently ridership is ratcheting up according to EMBARK post Devon Tower glass falling fiasco. Looking forward to upcoming reports.

Other notes from the meeting-

1. Three more automatically prioritized traffic signals have been installed which actually cause six intersections to give difference to the streetcar-

Sheridan/Harvey
Sheridan/Robinson
Hudson/Park- which causes a cascading timed effect up Hudson to the next two signals (3 in effect here)

2. Loop timing has improved to 38 - 39 minutes during average traffic loads and 41 - 42 minutes during heavy traffic periods. We are near our 12 minute consistent frequency at all periods.

3. The next wave of automated traffic signals installed will be-

4th/Hudson
Broadway/5th
Reno/Oklahoma- We have a pedestrian button timing problem here
Hudson/OKC Boulevard
Sheridan/Hudson

4. We had 130 average blockages per month with cars crossing the white line before painted instructions on the pavement. That has been cut down to about 43 per month. The average parking blockage lasts about five minutes before resolved. Blockages lasting longer than that have resulted in an average of two cars per month being towed.

Other notes from the meeting-

1. Three more automatically prioritized traffic signals have been installed which actually cause six intersections to give difference to the streetcar-

Sheridan/Harvey
Sheridan/Robinson
Hudson/Park- which causes a cascading timed effect up Hudson to the next two signals (3 in effect here)

2. Loop timing has improved to 38 - 39 minutes during average traffic loads and 41 - 42 minutes during heavy traffic periods. We are near our 12 minute consistent frequency at all periods.

3. The next wave of automated traffic signals installed will be-

4th/Hudson
Broadway/5th
Reno/Oklahoma- We have a pedestrian button timing problem here
Hudson/OKC Boulevard
Sheridan/Hudson

4. We had 130 average blockages per month with cars crossing the white line before painted instructions on the pavement. That has been cut down to about 43 per month. The average parking blockage lasts about five minutes before resolved. Blockages lasting longer than that have resulted in an average of two cars per month being towed.

I was one of the people who reported this issue. Doesn't seem like to me its necessarily a pedestrian button timing issue but rather an issue with the signal not differentiating between an approaching streetcar vs streetcar stopped at station. It seems like the "fix" was to just turn off prioritized traffic system which wasn't really my intention when I reported it.

Other notes from the meeting-

1. Three more automatically prioritized traffic signals have been installed which actually cause six intersections to give difference to the streetcar-

Sheridan/Harvey
Sheridan/Robinson
Hudson/Park- which causes a cascading timed effect up Hudson to the next two signals (3 in effect here)

2. Loop timing has improved to 38 - 39 minutes during average traffic loads and 41 - 42 minutes during heavy traffic periods. We are near our 12 minute consistent frequency at all periods.

3. The next wave of automated traffic signals installed will be-

4th/Hudson
Broadway/5th
Reno/Oklahoma- We have a pedestrian button timing problem here
Hudson/OKC Boulevard
Sheridan/Hudson

4. We had 130 average blockages per month with cars crossing the white line before painted instructions on the pavement. That has been cut down to about 43 per month. The average parking blockage lasts about five minutes before resolved. Blockages lasting longer than that have resulted in an average of two cars per month being towed.

Sounds like slowly, but surely, all the kinks are getting worked out. Great news!

There needs to be maximized zero tolerance policy for cars blocking the streetcar tracks.

https://twitter.com/davidfholt/status/1144245985335549956


New @OKCStreetcar ridership numbers: This month, our Streetcar passed a quarter-of-a-million riders since opening! Sitting at 271,082 total riders as of yesterday.

Why not just get rid of the parallel parking that goes along the streetcar route. This would completely remove the problem of parked cars blocking SC. Use the area for a protected bike lane etc. seems like an easy problem to solve.

get rid of the parallel parking

how dare you

Why not just get rid of the parallel parking that goes along the streetcar route. This would completely remove the problem of parked cars blocking SC. Use the area for a protected bike lane etc. seems like an easy problem to solve.

^
This please!

It would be hard to reverse engineer a protected bike lane along most of the route however and would be impossible is some cases without building on private property.

Why not just get rid of the parallel parking that goes along the streetcar route. This would completely remove the problem of parked cars blocking SC. Use the area for a protected bike lane etc. seems like an easy problem to solve.
This would be the best solution. Parking is extremely easy to come by in DTOKC and the loss of parallel parking along the street route on one side of the road won't affect it much. Not sure if there is room but it would be nice to see two way protected bike lane.

https://twitter.com/davidfholt/status/1144245985335549956

Simple calculation means this is 1,506 per day or 100 per hour average (if open 15 hours per day avg).

I have been using the street car to get to and from work every day for the last few weeks. If I time it right when I walk out my door it takes about 15 minutes to get to work. Getting home at night is generally a little quicker because not nearly as many people are on, and I am often on one of the last loops. It’s been a decent experience so far, I do wish we had some sort of gps tracking for the streetcar as well as the busses.

I have been using the street car to get to and from work every day for the last few weeks. If I time it right when I walk out my door it takes about 15 minutes to get to work. Getting home at night is generally a little quicker because not nearly as many people are on, and I am often on one of the last loops. It’s been a decent experience so far, I do wish we had some sort of gps tracking for the streetcar as well as the busses.

I use the website on my iphone which shows times until the next arrival (3 times actually) and it has saved me hours probably at this point!

Not to change the subject but something I need to voice here. Holt mentioned recently that streetcar expansion wouldn't be in M4 due to the cost; which he quoted as being $130M just to get from downtown to the Oklahoma Health Center area.

I find this ridiculous How can it cost so much just to expand a working system? That isn't far at all either, only a couple of miles. So it now costs rail $65M per mile in OKC?

I'm not sure if Holt was being accurate or if he was just being political to quiet those of us who favor some sort of expansion to one or more working neighborhoods; maybe Urban Pioneer can give us better facts.

I was under the impression that in OKC rail costs $16M-$20M per mile and that streetcars themselves are around $5M. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if these are true then it wouldn't cost but $40M to extend down to Capital Hill and $10M to buy two more trains.

This would make a SIGNIFICANT impact to the system with another destination that also happens to be near working class neighborhoods in the often neglected South Side!!! Connecting them to downtown should be the first priority for any political figure IMO and would surely assure the success of ridership of the system. I'd also think expansion to OCU/Asia District/via Plaza would cost the same but would impact ridership even more positively and we could probably ask OCU to help with some of the rail/stations on/near their campus to offset.

So why couldn't we have $50M go to streetcar expansion to Capital Hill as a no brainier to keep momentum of the streetcar going?

Not to change the subject but something I need to voice here. Holt mentioned recently that streetcar expansion wouldn't be in M4 due to the cost; which he quoted as being $130M just to get from downtown to the Oklahoma Health Center area.

I find this ridiculous How can it cost so much just to expand a working system? That isn't far at all either, only a couple of miles. So it now costs rail $65M per mile in OKC?

I'm not sure if Holt was being accurate or if he was just being political to quiet those of us who favor some sort of expansion to one or more working neighborhoods; maybe Urban Pioneer can give us better facts.

I was under the impression that in OKC rail costs $16M-$20M per mile and that streetcars themselves are around $5M. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if these are true then it wouldn't cost but $40M to extend down to Capital Hill and $10M to buy two more trains.

This would make a SIGNIFICANT impact to the system with another destination that also happens to be near working class neighborhoods in the often neglected South Side!!! Connecting them to downtown should be the first priority for any political figure IMO and would surely assure the success of ridership of the system. I'd also think expansion to OCU/Asia District/via Plaza would cost the same but would impact ridership even more positively and we could probably ask OCU to help with some of the rail/stations on/near their campus to offset.

So why couldn't we have $50M go to streetcar expansion to Capital Hill as a no brainier to keep momentum of the streetcar going?

getting to the HSC and back is at least 3 miles and depending where you go more like 4-5 so at 20+ mil a mile and 2 new cars that is over 100 mil easy

capital hill is between 2.3 and 3.5 depending so for sure less money

and really capital hill as an extention should be a no brainer in MAPS 4

up to 22nd and back on western or classen would be 2.5ish track miles (up to 30th in less than 4 track miles)

and for 9 track miles you could double track up classen all the way to 63rd ..

getting to the HSC and back is at least 3 miles and depending where you go more like 4-5 so at 20+ mil a mile and 2 new cars that is over 100 mil easy

capital hill is between 2.3 and 3.5 depending so for sure less money

and really capital hill as an extention should be a no brainer in MAPS 4

up to 22nd and back on western or classen would be 2.5ish track miles (up to 30th in less than 4 track miles)

and for 9 track miles you could double track up classen all the way to 63rd ..

i would support a maps that was pretty much just this as the major project, and then a bunch of smaller ones!!!!

I wonder if they aren’t including the streetcar because of a future vote on an RTA tax.

I wonder if they aren’t including the streetcar because of a future vote on an RTA tax.

That's what I was wondering. They might not want to exhaust people on public transit/trains

Simple calculation means this is 1,506 per day or 100 per hour average (if open 15 hours per day avg).

More miles of track would = more ridership. This is a good start but it needs many more miles of tracks to be a real people mover. I would hope that they can get this on the MAPS.

I am going to post this here as well. It seems that there is a dual discussion on this thread along with the ideas for MAPS 4.-

I have an internal meeting about possible streetcar extensions tomorrow. If this something that you feel passionate about, I would encourage you to attend the upcoming MAPS 4 public meeting regarding public transit-

City Hall (Municipal Building) Council Chambers
9:00 AM
July 31st

I did write a pretty extensive report about the improvements that needed to be completed to the bus system. Pete has a copy of that and it looks like most of those proposed bus system improvements from the report are going to stick.

Not to change the subject but something I need to voice here. Holt mentioned recently that streetcar expansion wouldn't be in M4 due to the cost; which he quoted as being $130M just to get from downtown to the Oklahoma Health Center area.

I find this ridiculous How can it cost so much just to expand a working system? That isn't far at all either, only a couple of miles. So it now costs rail $65M per mile in OKC?

I'm not sure if Holt was being accurate or if he was just being political to quiet those of us who favor some sort of expansion to one or more working neighborhoods; maybe Urban Pioneer can give us better facts.

I was under the impression that in OKC rail costs $16M-$20M per mile and that streetcars themselves are around $5M. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if these are true then it wouldn't cost but $40M to extend down to Capital Hill and $10M to buy two more trains.

This would make a SIGNIFICANT impact to the system with another destination that also happens to be near working class neighborhoods in the often neglected South Side!!! Connecting them to downtown should be the first priority for any political figure IMO and would surely assure the success of ridership of the system. I'd also think expansion to OCU/Asia District/via Plaza would cost the same but would impact ridership even more positively and we could probably ask OCU to help with some of the rail/stations on/near their campus to offset.

So why couldn't we have $50M go to streetcar expansion to Capital Hill as a no brainier to keep momentum of the streetcar going?

1. Significant extensions to Capitol Hill will involve going under the "Packingtown Lead" which is the freight railroad tracks that Stillwater Central Railroad operates on. This would involve going under or over these tracks. The most logical place is to do it on Harvey due to the city-owned parkland. This underpass, however, would cause a Capitol Hill extension to be an approximate $80 million+ cost. The system would need to operate on Robinson or Walker in much the same manner as the Dallas Oak Cliff line with an isolated, dedicated lane and Positive Train Control. It is all doable and this particular streetcar line could operate higher speeds if properly separated from auto traffic with bollards or Jersey barriers.

2. Health Sciences is also an $80+ million dollar project as it involves significant track length to properly serve the Health Sciences Center neighborhood due to the area's sprawling, suburban design. It is also doable but would best be done if supplemented by Federal Dollars, imhop. It would be cool to go further into Ward 7 and serve beyond Health Sciences. That cost would be about $120 million - $180 million and involve significant corridor redevelopment with bike lanes, beautification, and such.

The councilors have made it clear that they would like to see significant improvements made to the bus system and the broad use of BRT out of the proposed transit budget in MAPS 4.

Personally, probably one of the best short extensions that we could make would involve better connecting Film Row and the Farmer's Market areas into the existing system. This could be done without too much impact on the overall proposed MAPS 4 budget and help stimulate and reinforce activity in those nearby areas that are out of reasonable walking range. This would be accomplished by extending the "B" Line of the existing system.

Personally, probably one of the best short extensions that we could make would involve better connecting Film Row and the Farmer's Market areas into the existing system. This could be done without too much impact on the overall proposed MAPS 4 budget and help stimulate and reinforce activity in those nearby areas that are out of reasonable walking range. This would be accomplished by extending the "B" Line of the existing system.
How easy (or not) would a short extension to 23rd St. be? That seems like a no-brainer.

SW 25 to NW 23 on Walker has been my suggestion since the beginning. Connect HH, Mesta, Paseo, Capitol Hill. Actual neighborhoods with people that might want or need to come downtown. Less than 4 miles of track. No complications (aside from HH/Mesta NIMBY's maybe).

SW 25 to NW 23 on Walker has been my suggestion since the beginning. Connect HH, Mesta, Paseo, Capitol Hill. Actual neighborhoods with people that might want or need to come downtown. Less than 4 miles of track. No complications (aside from HH/Mesta NIMBY's maybe).

I really love the idea and agree that it needs to be built - however, one big complication is the Stillwater Central (SLWC) railroad crossing on Western a few blocks north of SW 25th. This is point #1 in Urban Pioneer's post above (https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=20121&p=1080977#post1080977). That railroad crossing will make expansion south of roughly SW 21st St a costly endeavor.

Apologies, I missed that.

How easy (or not) would a short extension to 23rd St. be? That seems like a no-brainer.

It would be reasonably easy aside from potential vocal opposition from some residents in Heritage Hills and Mesta Park. A Paseo extension would definitely get James Cooper's support as long as it didn't infringe on bus system improvements. Currently, the natural extension opportunity exists most easily at Broadway, Robinson, and/or Dewey due to turning radius clearances to connect to the existing lines.

Currently there is ZERO bus coverage for Paseo aside from the 23. It's pretty ridiculous that we can't go directly from downtown to Paseo via our transit system currently. You can get to Plaza. Farmer's Market. Bricktown obvs. Almost to Western Ave. Uptown indirectly (have to transfer to 23).

Great point!

Paseo is really coming into its own. I am a big believer in Capitol Hill and have been working on the Yale Theatre over the past year via my day job. However, if we are talking about potential immediate ridership, I suspect that Mesta, Heritage Hills, Jefferson Park, Paseo, and Edgemere would have significant immediate ridership dumping into the current system. This is a very useful discussion ahead of this meeting.

This is why I want to go up Walker instead of Robinson or Broadway, but I would take Dewey. We can start by going north to NW23rd first and go south after the SW21st rail issue is addressed. Two miles or less of track. Less than five stops probably.

Currently there is ZERO bus coverage for Paseo aside from the 23. It's pretty ridiculous that we can't go directly from downtown to Paseo via our transit system currently. You can get to Plaza. Farmer's Market. Bricktown obvs. Almost to Western Ave. Uptown indirectly (have to transfer to 23).

Yep. I live near 23rd and rob. It takes less time to walk to downtown than it does to take the bus (however, it also takes less time to bike than it does drive and park in traffic)

I wonder if they aren’t including the streetcar because of a future vote on an RTA tax.

RTA wont include Streetcar as it's OKC specific and not regional. No way would the suburbs fund anything streetcar and we shouldn't expect them to when it will be hard enough for them to fund their part of the commuter rail and their local bus.

One thing to think - if the Streetcar isn't seen as a success it could cause the RTA to fail. I think it is critical to connect the Streetcar network to an actual neighborhood or section of the city. Capital Hill is the political and probably least costly to implement and it would add a another stop at the park and at the river/Boathouse district.