Ten years ago that debate did not exist.

And you , nor I , can envision what will exist 10 years from now.

I would not invest a penny in any traditional form of transportation, too many disruptive technologies.

again... you might want to go listen to that debate podcast... they talk about a good 30 years worth of the debate... it has existed far longer than 10 years. and they are people in the industry and have been working on it for that long... i understand that the debate didn't exist in the open public... but the debate has been going on for decades...

Yes, there's still many problems, but no one in 2008 even thought of an Uber or an autonomous vehicle


No one had thought of a taxicab in 2008?

The creativity of Uber was not technology, it was in terminology. They call it a "ride sharing service" as though the drivers are just commuters who happened to be on their way to a location, and you could use this app to carpool with them. "Oh hey buddy, since you're going that way..." It's designed to get around laws for taxis.

Automonous cars with one or 2 people in them do nothing to alleviate congestion or to make the inner city safer and more appealing for peds., scooters,
or bicylces( e or pedal). Not to mention infrastruture costs.

No one had thought of a taxicab in 2008?

The creativity of Uber was not technology, it was in terminology. They call it a "ride sharing service" as though the drivers are just commuters who happened to be on their way to a location, and you could use this app to carpool with them. "Oh hey buddy, since you're going that way..." It's designed to get around laws for taxis.

exactly.. and people think that driverless car tech only started then as well... because that is when the auto manufactures started to pump billions instead of millions into it. but the initial work to get to the proof of concept to convince execs to put billions behind it had been going on for 20-25 years before. the debate has been a long one. and they still have not gotten over the liability issue.

Automonous cars with one or 2 people in them do nothing to alleviate congestion or to make the inner city safer and more appealing for peds., scooters,
or bicylces( e or pedal). Not to mention infrastruture costs.

in fact, it makes congestion worse. because now you need more individual smaller vehicles to move the same amount of people as one larger vehicle... Go look at the NYC studies that show how Uber and Lyft have actually made NYC traffic significantly worse, not better.

No one had thought of a taxicab in 2008?

The creativity of Uber was not technology, it was in terminology. They call it a "ride sharing service" as though the drivers are just commuters who happened to be on their way to a location, and you could use this app to carpool with them. "Oh hey buddy, since you're going that way..." It's designed to get around laws for taxis.

The killer feature of it to me is just the convenient mobile interface. I've been wondering for a while if traditional taxi companies couldn't just wrap their own offerings up in a similar interface and do a better job of competing. Hell, maybe someone out there is already working on that.

The killer feature of it to me is just the convenient mobile interface. I've been wondering for a while if traditional taxi companies couldn't just wrap their own offerings up in a similar interface and do a better job of competing. Hell, maybe someone out there is already working on that.

biggest thing is that there isn't one unified one that works everywhere... in Europe it's EasyTaxi, NYC is GetT (formerly GetTaxi), Summon (formerly InstaCab) is SF Bay Area.

Flywheel is an app that works more like what you are describing, it has been picked up by several Cab Companies in the US, and also allows for independently licensed taxi drivers as well... (almost all of those above are independently licensed drivers, or those working directly for the company that made the app). currently FlyWheel has 80% of licensed taxi drivers in San Francisco using it. and it is probably the most polished app. just doesn't have the brand recognition yet. (probably in part because i think the name doesn't tell you what it is)

Ten years ago that debate did not exist.

And you , nor I , can envision what will exist 10 years from now.

I would not invest a penny in any traditional form of public transportation, too many disruptive technologies.

By that logic, we shouldn’t invest in anything because it will eventually be outdated and something better will be invented...Better not buy a new computer, a better one will be released tomorrow!

in fact, it makes congestion worse. because now you need more individual smaller vehicles to move the same amount of people as one larger vehicle... Go look at the NYC studies that show how Uber and Lyft have actually made NYC traffic significantly worse, not better.

actually once automonous vechicals become wide spread they make the current highway system signifigantly more efficient

i'm not against driver-less cars... and i think the billions spent trying to get to that point has provided many many positive benefits to all forms of transportation with computer assisted driving, and automating some tasks... if you are passionate about computer automation like i am, i really to recommend listening to the intelligence squared debate.

I do see the technology improving constantly, but there are still several things that haven't yet been addressed that are the things that will ultimately keep them from becoming mainstream until they are solved... again, a lot of good information on both sides of the debate in that podcast.

The technology can improve by leaps and bounds, but our nation's infrastructure needs to be pretty perfect in order for autonomous cars to be feasible. If autonomous cars can't detect lane markings, they fail, and taking OKC as an example, our lane markings on most likely a majority (if not most) of roads, state and interstate highways are in pretty sad shape. Until every roadway that will have an autonomous car driving on it has lane markings that are visible to autonomous cars, they simply will not happen, and I see that being quite a ways off.

Ten years ago that debate did not exist.

And you , nor I , can envision what will exist 10 years from now.

I would not invest a penny in any traditional form of public transportation, too many disruptive technologies.

Does this include road construction and maintenance? I mean why do we have to throw billions away at building and maintaining roads if flying cars aren’t even going to use roads?

Does this include road construction and maintenance? I mean why do we have to throw billions away at building and maintaining roads if flying cars aren’t even going to use roads?

That really hits home. My dad worked for Ford at an assembly plant from 48 thru 83. After going to the Ford exhibit at the World's Fair in 64 and admiring the Mustang that had been introduced, he assured me flying cars would be a thing whithin 10 years.

That really hits home. My dad worked for Ford at an assembly plant from 48 thru 83. After going to the Ford exhibit at the World's Fair in 64 and admiring the Mustang that had been introduced, he assured me flying cars would be a thing whithin 10 years.

Flying cars hasn't been invented yet because the real life Tony Stark hasn't been capture and forced to invent the Ark reactor in order to escape. duh... :)

Seriously, I don't see flying cars anytime soon. Its still a physics problem.

Flying cars hasn't been invented yet because the real life Tony Stark hasn't been capture and forced to invent the Ark reactor in order to escape. duh... :)

Seriously, I don't see flying cars anytime soon. Its still a physics problem.

I'm still waiting for my Flubber car...

Regardless of how autonomous vehicles play out, we still need to be focusing on creating places for pedestrians and public transit over the private auto. How we design our streets shouldn't change too much (at least shouldn't regress backward into auto-exclusive or primary design) with the introduction of avs unless those avs carry a large number of people.

yes, we will still need MASS TRANSIT - high(er) capacity vehicles to move large amounts of people to one place.

For the life of me, the streetcar is the beginning of OKC's Metropolitan Area MASS TRANSIT network, Commuter Rail and Commuter Bus being the other components moving large amounts of people into and throughout downtown. ...

I'm not sure why this is so difficult for people in OKC to understand. This is in addition to other modes of transit such as local bus, uber/lyft, taxi, and autonomous whatever of the future. ...

The day that you can reliably ride Uber all you need during a 16 hour period for less than $8.00 will be the day that they are even competitive with public transportation, let alone make it obsolete.

Realistically - ride-share services with autonomous cars are going to do terribly in super dense cities as well as super sprawled out cities because of economics. Public transit in super dense cities will always be fantastically successful because the city gets to dictate whatever it wants to do with ROW and will have a vested interest in protecting transit over-against autonomous vehicle ride-sharing systems. In super sprawled out cities, the necessity to use the car for all transportation will make Uber very cost-ineffective.

Lotsa opinion ............but nobody knows where transportation is headed. If you do, then you need to invest all the money you got and get rich, one way or the other

But you people , don't invest your own money, y'all are really good at spending other people's money where there's no personal risk to you. So what if your wrong, its just the taxpayers that get screwed.

Transportation, including public transportation, is in a state of flux, denying that is hiding from reality.

Lotsa opinion ............but nobody knows where transportation is headed. If you do, then you need to invest all the money you got and get rich, one way or the other

But you people , don't invest your own money, y'all are really good at spending other people's money where there's no personal risk to you. So what if your wrong, its just the taxpayers that get screwed.

Transportation, including public transportation, is in a state of flux, denying that is hiding from reality.

Lol So you’re the only taxpayer on this board? I think the taxpayers will be fine seeing as how we as taxpayers voted to fund it.

Lol So you’re the only taxpayer on this board? I think the taxpayers will be fine seeing as how we as taxpayers voted to fund it.

Yeah, OK

Lotsa opinion ............but nobody knows where transportation is headed. If you do, then you need to invest all the money you got and get rich, one way or the other

But you people , don't invest your own money, y'all are really good at spending other people's money where there's no personal risk to you. So what if your wrong, its just the taxpayers that get screwed.

Transportation, including public transportation, is in a state of flux, denying that is hiding from reality.

The truly revolutionary developments that are occurring in our world right now are developments that are allowing us to transcend space and time to a degree that we've never been able to do before. Improvements to the mechanical world while nice, are just not revolutionary at this point in time. By the time cab/ride-share companies come up with a legitimately functional system for driver-less cars and can begin to address the cost to be competitive in increasingly dense cities, technology will have improved for public transit as well that moves people even more efficiently.

By no means am I saying that one should be bearish on the push by cab/ride-share companies to introduce autonomous cars to the roadways and make profit off those...but to think they're going to be able to efficiently move multiple millions of people within the confines of small boarders, it's just never going to happen. The reason people over estimate the threat of autonomous cars to public transit is because underestimate how important ROW is in determining winners and losers.

Lotsa opinion .

agreed... one of them being yours... hence why i posted reference to something that has 4 experts in the field discussing this very issue. 2 in favor and two against. because their opinions are more substantial on the subject than anyone's on here. but again. it isn't what you want to hear because it might be contrary to your opinion... so we will ignore it.

Is there anyway to have a streetcar stopped at Santa Fe Hub station not continually keep the Oklahoma and Reno light green for Reno? This causes long wait times for people waiting to cross when the street car has already passed.

I'm eagerly awaiting updated ridership numbers. Last weekend's weather was amazing. I wouldn't be surprised if it is the highest ridership in the "pay-to-ride" era.

I'm eagerly awaiting updated ridership numbers. Last weekend's weather was amazing. I wouldn't be surprised if it is the highest ridership in the "pay-to-ride" era.

Where do you get these?

Where do you get these?

This site?:wink:

lol.

Were the streetcars stopped for a time Friday night? I noticed an Embark shuttle bus parked with flashers on at the transit stop for a extended period of time Friday evening.

Were the streetcars stopped for a time Friday night? I noticed an Embark shuttle bus parked with flashers on at the transit stop for a extended period of time Friday evening.

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=19439&p=1075721#post1075721

this happens. if there were a similar accident anywhere along a rail line it would be stopped until its clear.

I hope we don't think EVERY thing and ANY thing will be the end of whatever infrastructure gets added to OKC. Other cities deal with this, so can OKC.

this happens. if there were a similar accident anywhere along a rail line it would be stopped until its clear.

I hope we don't think EVERY thing and ANY thing will be the end of whatever infrastructure gets added to OKC. Other cities deal with this, so can OKC.

Fortunately, ours are empty most of the day, so no real issue!

They have been running EMBARK vans on the streetcar routes.

They have been running EMBARK vans on the streetcar routes.
So it’s okay to be empaled in a bus but not a streetcar? ��

So it’s okay to be empaled in a bus but not a streetcar? ��

No, but their not confined to a track that goes through affected area.

https://twitter.com/OKCStreetcar/status/1130898128289378305


We're back on the rails again! Streetcar service has resumed but the Century Center Platform will remain closed until further notice. Robinson & Sheridan also remain closed to pedestrians and motorists.
We're excited to be back, OKC! #RideOn with us.

I just saw the streetcar in a week ride by my office about 30 minutes ago.

I rode it several times yesterday with clients on a trip down to a project site. I was pleasantly surprised at the number of people riding yesterday after the downturn. I wonder if the city will pursue damages against Devon for the lost fare revenues and subcontractor technician fees lost during the catastrophe.

We were supposed to be running signal priority tests on the next wave of equipment deployments when the catastrophe happened. The technicians were put back on planes and will have to make another trip back to install and calibrate the new equipment.

The disruption in reliability obviously potentially also has had a negative effect on securing potential first-time users and reliant users lost during the period as well.

Sitting in Kaiser's right now. Visiting OKC for the day and ended up taking the street car from the convention center to midtown. I wouldn't be here if it weren't for the street car, since I usually just stroll around Bricktown on these occasions. The street car was cheap and really easy to use, and it really opens up the area to me as a visitor. So here's proof of a little benefit from an outsider.

Ridership looks good. Most of the seats were taken, so I just stood in the middle area.

^^ That's great to hear!

omg imagine what we could have done for humanity with 140m dollars! instead it is important to cater to the elite! trickle down transit is the end of us.... hope you enjoy it!

omg imagine what we could have done for humanity with 140m dollars! instead it is important to cater to the elite! trickle down transit is the end of us.... hope you enjoy it!

Catering to all those elite construction workers who build projects spurred on by the streetcar route? Or all the elite who ride mass trans? Or all those elite children who are educated with the taxes from increased taxes on property? Or all the elite workers in and around the restaurants, shops, etc, enhanced by the area of the streetcars?

Find another stale argument... this pompous one isn’t born out in truth.

omg imagine what we could have done for humanity with 140m dollars! instead it is important to cater to the elite! trickle down transit is the end of us.... hope you enjoy it!

umm... $140 million wouldn't do much to actually help people... money adds up really quickly...

but as we talk about catering to things... based upon your last like 30 posts, can you please provide input and actual criticism of projects, rather than just cater to your ego?

thanks.

omg imagine what we could have done for humanity with 140m dollars! instead it is important to cater to the elite! trickle down transit is the end of us.... hope you enjoy it!

The only transit projects that cater to the elite is building roads. The cost of using a vehicle is a barrier for many. Good public transit is leveling the playing field. This is a very bad take.

The only transit projects that cater to the elite is building roads. The cost of using a vehicle is a barrier for many. Good public transit is leveling the playing field. This is a very bad take.

It's funny how many people have no problem with insane spending on roads to subsidize cars, but spend a nickel on public transit and they lose their minds.

It's funny how many people have no problem with insane spending on roads to subsidize cars, but spend a nickel on public transit and they lose their minds.

For real. We're dropping more than $140 million on I-235 widening and interchange reconstruction alone.

The only transit projects that cater to the elite is building roads. The cost of using a vehicle is a barrier for many. Good public transit is leveling the playing field. This is a very bad take.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here (I'm a daily transit user), but it could be argued that the streetcar (in its current form) is not "good" _public_ transit (since it's TOD-based)....

The only transit projects that cater to the elite is building roads. The cost of using a vehicle is a barrier for many. Good public transit is leveling the playing field. This is a very bad take.

Haha...It’s quite an impressive achievement to take a Steve Hunt quote and make it appear that his is the more logical one... I kinda get your point though... considering what it costs to live downtown, even for those that can afford to live there, there might be some that couldn’t afford the expense of owning a car too...so at least we’ve leveled the playing field...

It's funny how many people have no problem with insane spending on roads to subsidize cars, but spend a nickel on public transit and they lose their minds.

Maybe because 80 percent of people in the US drive as a means to commute? Just thinking out loud.

The only transit projects that cater to the elite is building roads. The cost of using a vehicle is a barrier for many. Good public transit is leveling the playing field. This is a very bad take.Like many of your claims, this is flat out disingenuous to the max.

Like many of your claims, this is flat out disingenuous to the max.

Care to elaborate on how my statement is disingenuous?

Haha...It’s quite an impressive achievement to take a Steve Hunt quote and make it appear that his is the more logical one... I kinda get your point though... considering what it costs to live downtown, even for those that can afford to live there, there might be some that couldn’t afford the expense of owning a car too...so at least we’ve leveled the playing field...

I never said the streetcar as it stands now is good public transportation. What it is, is a good starting point. The streetcar should immediately be expanded to OCU, Capitol Hill, and OUHS. We have to connect the places where people live with the places where people work. These expansions would link some of the most affluent neighborhoods in okc AND link many lower and working class neighborhoods with job centers and entertainment. This would immediately make the streetcar a viable system for thousands of OKC residents of all incomes and push the needle of economic development along the entire route. This seems like a much better use of funds than widening some stretch of NW 122nd because a Walmart goes in...

Any alternative transportation investment Is more egalitarian than adding more lanes for cars. Bike lanes, sidewalks, buses, streetcars, light rail, etc, etc all have much lower barriers to use than roads.

FYI, from what I'm hearing there is almost no chance the streetcar will be expanded through MAPS 4.

FYI, from what I'm hearing there is almost no chance the streetcar will be expanded through MAPS 4.

Because it doesn't bring in buttloads of money for corporations, which appears to be the Chamber's only driving force?

FYI, from what I'm hearing there is almost no chance the streetcar will be expanded through MAPS 4.

Good!

We need to see how it operates over 3-4 years before we invest more. Need to see operating expenses. Breakdowns. Future costs of replacing cars. Other impacts.

We had them before and they eventually died out and were covered over. More cities than not are not seeing the rewards. I also think they made a huge tactical error in how they laid out the tracks. Making it circular was a mistake and any obstacle or breakdown or even car over white line shuts the whole system down. Should have made it checkerboard design which would have allowed easier expansion of selected areas. Also would only shut down a smaller fraction if problems or breakdowns.

I will say, its best calling will be tourists and once OMNI and Convention center and park open it will be great for them. Its great if a person lives close to route. But for 90+% of residents its not useful.

This is good news for me the voter as I want to vote for some other projects. I do hope they scale down MAPS list and would prefer to do less project votes but more often. Maybe do a few projects every 2 years so will only have a few to vote on each time. Would allow flexibility in changing dynamics and be easier to focus on public awareness of the items.

I'm fine with no streetcar expansion in MAPS 4. We need to commit to RTA funding and let that do its job.

Good!

We need to see how it operates over 3-4 years before we invest more. Need to see operating expenses. Breakdowns. Future costs of replacing cars. Other impacts.

We had them before and they eventually died out and were covered over. More cities than not are not seeing the rewards. I also think they made a huge tactical error in how they laid out the tracks. Making it circular was a mistake and any obstacle or breakdown or even car over white line shuts the whole system down. Should have made it checkerboard design which would have allowed easier expansion of selected areas. Also would only shut down a smaller fraction if problems or breakdowns.

I will say, its best calling will be tourists and once OMNI and Convention center and park open it will be great for them. Its great if a person lives close to route. But for 90+% of residents its not useful.

This is good news for me the voter as I want to vote for some other projects. I do hope they scale down MAPS list and would prefer to do less project votes but more often. Maybe do a few projects every 2 years so will only have a few to vote on each time. Would allow flexibility in changing dynamics and be easier to focus on public awareness of the items.

Widening Rockwell and memorial road wouldn’t be useful for 99.99% of residents. Does that mean we don’t have to pay for that now?

Do agree that we did for the first time build a streetcar system the doesn't need immediate expansion; something we may want to consider with MAPS V.

We all have our pet peeve projects; so let's spread the wealth.

I'm fine with no streetcar expansion in MAPS 4. We need to commit to RTA funding and let that do its job.

Yeah, we need to at the very least have a funding mechanism to pay for the operations of our existing system before we go expanding it. Cant just go on cannibalizing other city services.

Plus, the main selling point of the street car is spurring development around it. It will take take several years to see these results.

Widening Rockwell and memorial road wouldn’t be useful for 99.99% of residents. Does that mean we don’t have to pay for that now?

You picked one road lol. How about I pick a 50 foot section of SC for equal comparison? Most people drive several miles of roads each day. So the percent of road use is much higher. Its likely over 80% use roads each day and higher per week. How many use SC per day or week?

You ignored the the rest of post too. Its a poorly designed route than cannot be easily expanded as spurs. Checkerboard would have allowed that. If for example one like ran east/west on 10th street then its easier to extend that spur to the Medical district. Any expansion now has to still feed into a circular thus would clog it up.

Its a great tourist attraction and that will be its best calling.

You picked one road lol. How about I pick a 50 foot section of SC for equal comparison? Most people drive several miles of roads each day. So the percent of road use is much higher. Its likely over 80% use roads each day and higher per week. How many use SC per day or week?

You ignored the the rest of post too. Its a poorly designed route than cannot be easily expanded as spurs. Checkerboard would have allowed that. If for example one like ran east/west on 10th street then its easier to extend that spur to the Medical district. Any expansion now has to still feed into a circular thus would clog it up.

Its a great tourist attraction and that will be its best calling.

So you think the SC route should have been aligned differently for expansion but also don’t want it expanded. Makes sense

And the argument that most people drive by you and others is so weak. There’s literally no other option in the majority of the city. Of course most people drive. Maybe if we spent money on things other than roads for cars people could use other means.

This “most people drive so let’s build more roads” is a circular argument. With this logic no one would ever build any bridges. Why should we build a bridge I’ve hardly seen anyone forge the river? Must not be enough demand for a bridge.