So my notes from a recent city meeting about this are-

30 buses 15 minute frequency $15 million
O&M $15 additional million per year
1/8th penny for O&M?

11 - 7 on Sunday with overtime

This presumes we were trying to increase frequency on existing routes to improve service and broaden Sunday bus performance. Fwiw

Thank you for the more precise data. For not knowing much about the workings my estimates weren't terrible. IMO 30M is still a bargain.

No problem. I think a big lesson learned from the streetcar system that directly impacts buses is also Automatic Traffic Signal Prioritization Installation. On key cooridors such as 23rd Street, Classen, and Western, such technology would make a profound difference in improving service. The streetcar project paid for the City’s servers to be upgraded to handle this signal technology anywhere in the city at which it is deployed.

Just wondering what % of the O&M budget comes from fares, streetcar and bus? I rarely have anyone ask for my fare when I board the streetcar. I wonder what the impact would be to eliminate fares for all public transit in Oklahoma City.

How many ride streetcar now , is irrelevant.

How many will ride streetcar in three years .........or five years ..... is what matters.

The only question I have ....... is how long before the novelty wears off.

The only question I have ....... is how long before the novelty wears off.

What if it isn’t a novelty?

Is there a link to the reports that show number of riders? Thanks!

Not sure how often this happens (or will in the future) but apparently even the most minor of emergencies shuts the Street Car down until first responders leave the area.

Saw this this morning. Apparently at this point the driver wouldn't let passengers off the Street Car (according to a bystander). I could easily see first responders staying parked for 20-40 minutes in a similar situation. At what point are the passengers allowed to get off the Street Car?

15231

How many ride streetcar now , is irrelevant.

How many will ride streetcar in three years .........or five years ..... is what matters.

The only question I have ....... is how long before the novelty wears off.

When it comes to private development and transformation in OKC, we're more used to massive change taking about 20 years. In 20 years, if the park and streetcar have spurred on huge private investment downtown, it will have been money well spent. Absent a major recession, we have every reason to believe this is going to happen.

Some bad math estimates, looks like we might have half a million riders our first year. If we get those numbers, I think we can call it a big success. It's probably going to get the most use during events downtown as opposed to something that your average office worker will use, but when the convention center opens, look out.

Has any information been published as to what level of ridership would get to the point of covering costs? Justifying expansion? Be considered at true success and not just a political success?

Ridership will never cover costs. Someone with more data can probably say exactly but I would guess very few lines across the country cover costs. But that's why the Feds cover the bulk. For COPTA it's close to 80/20 I believe so I'm sure the Streetcar is about the same.

I'm sorry, but this is just not true. We're running about as efficiently as we can with our existing bus system. We are limited in our routes and frequencies. We only have 49 buses. For a very reasonable sum (comparatively), we could double our buses and then either double our routes, or improve our frequency to 15 mins (instead of 30) and 30 mins (instead of 60) on weekdays/weekends-evenings respectively (or even better a hybrid of the two options -- add routes, extend route hours, increase frequency on the best performing lines).

That would be about $15M for the buses (I used 300K for the cost of a bus, even though everything I saw shows them as less) and about $5M (recurring obvs) for salaries for new drivers (I based this on an average of the salary range for a driver [from a posting on https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/okc] times 150 additional drivers, assuming 3 shifts of 50 drivers, still a high estimate since we don't have 24-hr routes). I'm sure there are other costs (such as maintenance staff and employee overhead costs), which is why I used high estimates. $20M spent right now would mean on January 1 2020 we could have a significantly better/more usable system. Personally I'd make it $25M and immediately begin a shelter upgrade program while we're at it. This is something we can fix and vastly improve our city in terms of better access for all income levels as a simple matter of municipal will power.

One of the things that turned me on to riding busses in Denver when I worked downtown was the use of bus only express lanes. I ended up not taking the light rail due to the inconvenient parking built for the system (a whole different subject) but that it simply took far longer to ride light rail because of (what I felt was) excessive stops. Maybe not everyone is like me but time was the biggest factor so when I saw I could bypass 2 miles of near-gridlock traffic to get downtown, I took it. Putting in a few bus only lanes may help ridership if it saves people time.

Ridership will never cover costs. Someone with more data can probably say exactly but I would guess very few lines across the country cover costs. But that's why the Feds cover the bulk. For COPTA it's close to 80/20 I believe so I'm sure the Streetcar is about the same.

OKC paid for its entire streetcar system...

If someone wants to talk about recovering costs, please also ask how often roads recover their entire costs... or airports... we subsidize all transportation, so let's move on from that red herring.

Not sure how often this happens (or will in the future) but apparently even the most minor of emergencies shuts the Street Car down until first responders leave the area.

Saw this this morning. Apparently at this point the driver wouldn't let passengers off the Street Car (according to a bystander). I could easily see first responders staying parked for 20-40 minutes in a similar situation. At what point are the passengers allowed to get off the Street Car?

15231

Alternatively, how hard would it have been for fire and EMSA to park on the other side?

OKC paid for its entire streetcar system...

If someone wants to talk about recovering costs, please also ask how often roads recover their entire costs... or airports... we subsidize all transportation, so let's move on from that red herring.

Some comments on bus/car/costs/roads:

- A person solely reliant on bus is not buying a car and only pays bus fare (not saying its bad just mentioning)

- A car driver is buying car and paying taxes at dealership at that time.

- A car buyer is paying for registration and taxes (taxes first year).

- A car user is paying taxes at the gas pump.

- Some car users are paying toll for turnpike

- Car users pay annual registration fees

- Car users pay insurance (not sure but does insurance collect taxes in their fees given back to state?)

99.99% of our commerce is car centric. Meaning without roads our economy shuts down. (Cars mean any vehicle traffic). Not sure why building and maintaining roads is such a bad thing but it seems to be.

The streetcar is a limited route and can only serve a small segment of population. Buses can serve more but we have not invested in them. So to get the most bang for our buck we need to continue to invest in roads until such time we have great/expanded bus service. Roads are our lifeline and as they get worse it hurts our economy.

OKC paid for its entire streetcar system...

If someone wants to talk about recovering costs, please also ask how often roads recover their entire costs... or airports... we subsidize all transportation, so let's move on from that red herring.

Really? Roads are REQUIRED for a city to function. Our Streetcars were not. Yes, there are benefits, but you cannot compare roads to streetcars.

I think everyone knows what the status quo is. The streetcar and other modes of transportation are being developed to get us past the status quo allowing OKC to be a competitive city and a good place to live in the future. You went to great pains to explain the expense of owning a car. Not everyone can afford a car. Cars are extremely bad for the environment and of all of the transit options available, they are probably the least efficient mode. I think this thread and this forum are generally past this.

I think everyone knows what the status quo is. The streetcar and other modes of transportation are being developed to get us past the status quo allowing OKC to be a competitive city and a good place to live in the future. You went to great pains to explain the expense of owning a car. Not everyone can afford a car. Cars are extremely bad for the environment and of all of the transit options available, they are probably the least efficient mode. I think this thread and this forum are generally past this.

As I stated before for half the cost of SC we could have built a model bus system.

Another comment. We already had streetcars years ago and they did not sustain and were halted and covered over/taken out.

IMO, the current SC system we have now serves (will serve):

1. Tourists. Especially once OMNI/Convention open up.

2. Bar hopping/events

3. Workers living downtown for work

Thats my opinion

And its not “past this”. There is talk of adding an extension to SC so the discussion is relevant. We are talking more major SC expense where if we put that money into buses would serve more people who need good transportation without cars.

OKC paid for its entire streetcar system...

If someone wants to talk about recovering costs, please also ask how often roads recover their entire costs... or airports... we subsidize all transportation, so let's move on from that red herring.
That is ridiculous. Roads likely recoup their costs from day one.

Roads don't pay for themselves - gas taxes, tolls, and other fees don't recover the costs it takes to build and maintain roads.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/driving-true-costs/412237/

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2011/01/04/actually-highway-builders-roads-don%E2%80%99t-pay-for-themselves/

Let's move on and talk about each mode's expenses and benefits separately. Let's bring environmental costs and benefits into the picture too.

That is ridiculous. Roads likely recoup their costs from day one.

Source?

Roads don't pay for themselves - gas taxes, tolls, and other fees don't recover the costs it takes to build and maintain roads.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/driving-true-costs/412237/

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2011/01/04/actually-highway-builders-roads-don%E2%80%99t-pay-for-themselves/

Let's move on and talk about each mode's expenses and benefits separately. Let's bring environmental costs and benefits into the picture too.


Source?
Almost the entire economy moves by roads. How do people get to work. How do goods move? Majority of it on roads. The gas tax and tolls is to maintain and fund capital improvements. There is more to the picture than that.

PS, a Streetsblog article pushing a negative article about roads... shocker.

PPS, how long until the 2nd Ave. ext pays for itself? How much money and value of goods moved through the new Crosstown? I bet it’s more in one year than Heartland Flyer has done in its entire existence. Do I have proof of this? No. There needs to be more research into that. Not taking such a simplistic view on such things only considering gas tax or user fees.

If you find what I’m saying ridiculous that’s fair. It’s just as fair for to find Lake Effects comments equally as ridiculous. Yes we subsidize infrastructure for the most part. Its for the greater good. This isn’t ground breaking or new. Comparing roads which OKC has to have vs. a streetcar is comical.

The problem isn't roads but how we build them and what we allow to be built around them. Yes, we need roads, but there are ways to build them that make more financial sense than how we are building them right now. The push for density, alternate modes of transport, walkability, etc are attempts to try and correct a trend that has been going on here for several decades: unchecked suburban sprawl. There is a threshold to how spread out people can be before roads (and plumbing, and police and fire) cost a city more to maintain than they can accrue in tax revenue. OKC is far, far beyond that point, hence the attempt to densify. Bricktown for example brings in something like 10% of the cities entire tax revenue but is only .0003% of the total land area of the city. So while projects that happen Downtown and in other dense areas may not seem to matter to someone way out in the burbs, they are essential to the overall health of the city. Dense areas (or commercially intense, mixed use areas) literally subsidize less dense areas, especially in a place like OKC where levels of density are incredibly low.

As I stated before for half the cost of SC we could have built a model bus system.

I'd happily concede the point if the purpose of the streetcar was ultimately transportation. The purpose of the streetcar is to drive private development at the core. Moving people around is purely secondary. The streetcar was designed with what the city will look like 20 years from now in mind. It is foundational. If you're going to build a 70-story tower, onlookers are going to question your intent when you start doing so by digging a giant hole. You're going the wrong way. Only after the cranes and steel beams start to show up does anything make any sense.

We're at the very beginning here. This will probably be one of the only streetcar lines--if not the only streetcar line we're going to see in a long time. The next step is adding Bus Rapid Transit.


Another comment. We already had streetcars years ago and they did not sustain and were halted and covered over/taken out.

Funny that you'd say that. The original owners of the original streetcar didn't make their fortunes running a train. In fact, they made most of their money from generating electricity, which they sold back to the grid and by building streetcar lines into empty fields, buying said empty fields, then platting and selling the lots along those lines at a substantial profit. Not much has changed. Today, the streetcar is being used to ensure property development and private investment just as it was 100 years ago.


And its not “past this”. There is talk of adding an extension to SC so the discussion is relevant. We are talking more major SC expense where if we put that money into buses would serve more people who need good transportation without cars.

That's already what's happening. BRT will see major investment before another rail line is considered. It might be another 20 years before we see another streetcar. If ever.

Not sure how often this happens (or will in the future) but apparently even the most minor of emergencies shuts the Street Car down until first responders leave the area.

Saw this this morning. Apparently at this point the driver wouldn't let passengers off the Street Car (according to a bystander). I could easily see first responders staying parked for 20-40 minutes in a similar situation. At what point are the passengers allowed to get off the Street Car?

15231

This just happened at 10th and Robinson. The streetcar was waiting for about 10 minutes I would say as a person was taken into an ambulance.

This just happened at 10th and Robinson. The streetcar was waiting for about 10 minutes I would say as a person was taken into an ambulance.

Just saw this:


OKC Streetcar
@OKCStreetcar
RIDER ALERT: Service delayed due to obstruction. Bus bridge in effect (look for a white bus).
5:34 PM · Apr 8, 2019 ·

I'd happily concede the point if the purpose of the streetcar was ultimately transportation. The purpose of the streetcar is to drive private development at the core. Moving people around is purely secondary. The streetcar was designed with what the city will look like 20 years from now in mind. It is foundational. If you're going to build a 70-story tower, onlookers are going to question your intent when you start doing so by digging a giant hole. You're going the wrong way. Only after the cranes and steel beams start to show up does anything make any sense.

We're at the very beginning here. This will probably be one of the only streetcar lines--if not the only streetcar line we're going to see in a long time. The next step is adding Bus Rapid Transit.



Funny that you'd say that. The original owners of the original streetcar didn't make their fortunes running a train. In fact, they made most of their money from generating electricity, which they sold back to the grid and by building streetcar lines into empty fields, buying said empty fields, then platting and selling the lots along those lines at a substantial profit. Not much has changed. Today, the streetcar is being used to ensure property development and private investment just as it was 100 years ago.



That's already what's happening. BRT will see major investment before another rail line is considered. It might be another 20 years before we see another streetcar. If ever.

On your first sentence:

I was told the Streetcar was the “last mile” of our transit system. I was told this in this very thread by those in the know. Are you saying we now admit its not worthy of being a people mover “to get folks to/from work” as part of an RTA?

Many times I said we should have done buses first but was told this was more important to moving people. My contention is buses could get more people “to/from” downtown without their car whereas SC still requires people to drive to/from downtown.

So now its to help the rich get richer by way of increased property values? After quite a few got TIF money?

I am pretty sure its been stated in this thread many times by key people it’s part of our key transportation plan “the last mile”.

One of the things that turned me on to riding busses in Denver when I worked downtown was the use of bus only express lanes. I ended up not taking the light rail due to the inconvenient parking built for the system (a whole different subject) but that it simply took far longer to ride light rail because of (what I felt was) excessive stops. Maybe not everyone is like me but time was the biggest factor so when I saw I could bypass 2 miles of near-gridlock traffic to get downtown, I took it. Putting in a few bus only lanes may help ridership if it saves people time.

I was impressed that I could take a bus from the airport to Boulder a couple Novembers ago. RTD is doing good things.

That is ridiculous. Roads likely recoup their costs from day one.


Do I have proof of this? No

Ok

Ok

Ok

When it comes to private development and transformation in OKC, we're more used to massive change taking about 20 years. In 20 years, if the park and streetcar have spurred on huge private investment downtown, it will have been money well spent. Absent a major recession, we have every reason to believe this is going to happen.

Massive change will be autonomous vehicles, beginning with the public transportation sector. OKC made a decision to go backwards in 2009, when no one dreamed of autonomous vehicles. City Bus, Uber, Lyft .... according to most " experts " I see paraded on CNBC daily, will be autonomous within 15 years. Me, I don't have a crystal ball nor am I related to Nostradamus, but what I'm hearing makes a lot more sense than going back to a form of transportation from the past.

I'd happily concede the point if the purpose of the streetcar was ultimately transportation. The purpose of the streetcar is to drive private development at the core. Moving people around is purely secondary. The streetcar was designed with what the city will look like 20 years from now in mind. It is foundational. If you're going to build a 70-story tower, onlookers are going to question your intent when you start doing so by digging a giant hole. You're going the wrong way. Only after the cranes and steel beams start to show up does anything make any sense.

We're at the very beginning here. This will probably be one of the only streetcar lines--if not the only streetcar line we're going to see in a long time. The next step is adding Bus Rapid Transit.



Funny that you'd say that. The original owners of the original streetcar didn't make their fortunes running a train. In fact, they made most of their money from generating electricity, which they sold back to the grid and by building streetcar lines into empty fields, buying said empty fields, then platting and selling the lots along those lines at a substantial profit. Not much has changed. Today, the streetcar is being used to ensure property development and private investment just as it was 100 years ago.



That's already what's happening. BRT will see major investment before another rail line is considered. It might be another 20 years before we see another streetcar. If ever.

there will likely be a streetcar extension in MAPS4

there will likely be a streetcar extension in MAPS4

It's too soon. But if they think they can pull it off, power to 'em. Adding a soccer stadium no one wants and a streetcar expansion will probably be enough to tank the MAPS brand.

On your first sentence:

I was told the Streetcar was the “last mile” of our transit system. I was told this in this very thread by those in the know. Are you saying we now admit its not worthy of being a people mover “to get folks to/from work” as part of an RTA?

It's mighty Pollyana of you to not understand that how things are marketed and how things are intended can sometimes be different. MAPS, at its heart, has been about improving quality of life to drive investment in the city core. It has been massively successful. It has never been about equity, access, or any sort of social justice unless you subscribe to the idea that one has to have money to support equity, access, and social justice--and that MAPS is helping to accomplish just that.


Many times I said we should have done buses first but was told this was more important to moving people. My contention is buses could get more people “to/from” downtown without their car whereas SC still requires people to drive to/from downtown.

Well, BRT is on the horizon. Look for that to shape up soon.


So now its to help the rich get richer by way of increased property values? After quite a few got TIF money?

Almost everything the City Council does is to help the rich get richer. This is Oklahoma, after all. One can only hope that in helping the rich get richer, there will also be opportunities for middle class folks to move up--and that largely has been the case. This is how things work in America. The fact is that MAPS projects do grant people opportunities and do have a tangible positive impact on everyone's quality of life. I don't begrudge anyone for manipulating the system to their benefit. That's what you do these days to get ahead.


I am pretty sure its been stated in this thread many times by key people it’s part of our key transportation plan “the last mile”.

That's almost laughable. I can think of maybe one or two stops out of all of them which might be utilized by folks otherwise dependent on public transit to bring them downtown. Otherwise, is someone going to ride the bus downtown to buy a $60 steak at Red Prime?

When you compare methods of transportation, you should use the same set of standards.

Unless I drive on the turnpike, I don't pay tolls to drive on public roads. Everything is paid for with taxes. The street in front of my house isn't expected to generate revenue. There's nothing wrong with that, but we should use the same standards when judging the streetcar.

The fares charged to ride the streetcar will not cover the costs of operation. It appears they charge fares for two reasons -- first, because people threatened to sue if the buses charged and the streetcars didn't. Second, so they can kick off homeless people who will just stay on the streetcar all day. But the fact that fares won't cover costs of operation isn't an issue, because we don't expect our roads to pay for themselves either.

Now, in terms of development, roads are virtually a necessity (I'm sure you could come up with some SimCity style proposal where we don't have roads, but we didn't build the city that way). And while it's hard to compute the economic value of any individual road, we understand the need for public funding. The streetcar also has a big economic impact. Look at the new developments in Midtown that have appeared since the streetcar line started going in. At least some of these were clearly influenced by the streetcar itself.

Is it the most cost effective form of transportation available? No it is not. But it's certainly arguable that the streetcar produces more economic development than a comparable amount of spending on extra bus lines. Like with other MAPS projects, it's a quality of life improvement, and impossible to separate from other factors when looking at future growth. 20 years from now, if some big company relocates their headquarters to OKC, part of the reason they do it may be because of the improvements from the MAPS programs. They aren't going to say "oh yeah it was the streetcar that made the difference." Companies don't do that. But the streetcar, combined with the park, and the Thunder, and a state jobs incentive program, and and and... they all work together. It's an investment for potential future growth.

It's mighty Pollyana of you to not understand that how things are marketed and how things are intended can sometimes be different. MAPS, at its heart, has been about improving quality of life to drive investment in the city core. It has been massively successful. It has never been about equity, access, or any sort of social justice unless you subscribe to the idea that one has to have money to support equity, access, and social justice--and that MAPS is helping to accomplish just that.



Well, BRT is on the horizon. Look for that to shape up soon.



Almost everything the City Council does is to help the rich get richer. This is Oklahoma, after all. One can only hope that in helping the rich get richer, there will also be opportunities for middle class folks to move up--and that largely has been the case. This is how things work in America. The fact is that MAPS projects do grant people opportunities and do have a tangible positive impact on everyone's quality of life. I don't begrudge anyone for manipulating the system to their benefit. That's what you do these days to get ahead.



That's almost laughable. I can think of maybe one or two stops out of all of them which might be utilized by folks otherwise dependent on public transit to bring them downtown. Otherwise, is someone going to ride the bus downtown to buy a $60 steak at Red Prime?

it will be the last mile when there is commuter rail that travels to Norman/Edmond rapid streetcar to Midwest City and maybe a line to the Airport ...

When you compare methods of transportation, you should use the same set of standards.

Unless I drive on the turnpike, I don't pay tolls to drive on public roads. Everything is paid for with taxes. The street in front of my house isn't expected to generate revenue. There's nothing wrong with that, but we should use the same standards when judging the streetcar.

The fares charged to ride the streetcar will not cover the costs of operation. It appears they charge fares for two reasons -- first, because people threatened to sue if the buses charged and the streetcars didn't. Second, so they can kick off homeless people who will just stay on the streetcar all day. But the fact that fares won't cover costs of operation isn't an issue, because we don't expect our roads to pay for themselves either.

Now, in terms of development, roads are virtually a necessity (I'm sure you could come up with some SimCity style proposal where we don't have roads, but we didn't build the city that way). And while it's hard to compute the economic value of any individual road, we understand the need for public funding. The streetcar also has a big economic impact. Look at the new developments in Midtown that have appeared since the streetcar line started going in. At least some of these were clearly influenced by the streetcar itself.

Is it the most cost effective form of transportation available? No it is not. But it's certainly arguable that the streetcar produces more economic development than a comparable amount of spending on extra bus lines. Like with other MAPS projects, it's a quality of life improvement, and impossible to separate from other factors when looking at future growth. 20 years from now, if some big company relocates their headquarters to OKC, part of the reason they do it may be because of the improvements from the MAPS programs. They aren't going to say "oh yeah it was the streetcar that made the difference." Companies don't do that. But the streetcar, combined with the park, and the Thunder, and a state jobs incentive program, and and and... they all work together. It's an investment for potential future growth.


very much this

It's too soon. But if they think they can pull it off, power to 'em. Adding a soccer stadium no one wants and a streetcar expansion will probably be enough to tank the MAPS brand.

I have a problem when people take their personal opinion and then extrapolate it to everyone else around them. I've heard a lot of support for a Soccer/Multi Use Outdoor stadium being downtown as part of MAPS, and I've heard some dissent. Same with the Streetcar - extending it would add value and use especially out to Capitol Hill and towards OUHSC/Capitol area.

They will have extensive polling in a couple months to help make decisions on what will make MAPS as passable as possible. We will see! For me, I love the stadium and the streetcar extensions as long as other things are addressed such as improved bus system, endowments for social services, to start.

I have a problem when people take their personal opinion and then extrapolate it to everyone else around them. I've heard a lot of support for a Soccer/Multi Use Outdoor stadium being downtown as part of MAPS, and I've heard some dissent. Same with the Streetcar - extending it would add value and use especially out to Capitol Hill and towards OUHSC/Capitol area.

They will have extensive polling in a couple months to help make decisions on what will make MAPS as passable as possible. We will see! For me, I love the stadium and the streetcar extensions as long as other things are addressed such as improved bus system, endowments for social services, to start.

This. It would be really nice if people would stop declaring what will or will not be passable in the MAPS 4 vote based on polling themselves.

I have a problem when people take their personal opinion and then extrapolate it to everyone else around them. I've heard a lot of support for a Soccer/Multi Use Outdoor stadium being downtown as part of MAPS, and I've heard some dissent. Same with the Streetcar - extending it would add value and use especially out to Capitol Hill and towards OUHSC/Capitol area.

They will have extensive polling in a couple months to help make decisions on what will make MAPS as passable as possible. We will see! For me, I love the stadium and the streetcar extensions as long as other things are addressed such as improved bus system, endowments for social services, to start.

yes... i for example don't care about the other projects that are on MAPS4... as long as streetcar expansion, trails, and bike lanes are on it... i'm voting for it... sure i might have opinions about the other projects... but i'm making sure that the projects i support are funded.

I believe that safety protocol requires the operator to keep all passengers on board until emergency personnel verify that the area is clear. I participated in the March 29 SIMULATED truck v. streetcar collision + HAZMAT spill, and that was the protocol. After the truck T-boned the streetcar, the operator kept all doors closed and 911 was called. OCFD was first on the scene, and they identified that an unknown chemical had spilled from the truck. A perimeter was established and protected personnel & sensors were brought in. Injured victims - including the truck driver - were assessed and evacuated through a sterile corridor uphill/upwind to triage as the chemical spill was contained & neutralized.

If you simply open the doors, you may put passengers into greater danger.

I believe that safety protocol requires the operator to keep all passengers on board until emergency personnel verify that the area is clear. I participated in the March 29 SIMULATED truck v. streetcar collision + HAZMAT spill, and that was the protocol. After the truck T-boned the streetcar, the operator kept all doors closed and 911 was called. OCFD was first on the scene, identified that an unknown chemical had spilled from the truck, established a perimeter and brought in protected personnel with sensors. Injured victims - including the truck drive - were assessed and evacuated uphill/upwind to triage.

If you simply open the doors, you may put passengers into greater danger.

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=20121&p=1066789#post1066789 :)

Yeah I saw that incident CCOKC mentioned. Fortunately it got resolved fairly quickly.

Regarding OKCGuy and others constantly harping about “what if”’s regarding streetcar monies in 2009 being diverted to buses... former City Council Manager Jim Couch was against it. I fought as hard for bus shelters and more buses as I did the streetcar. He didn’t want it and no one on council fought him on it.

This time will be different. Jim Couch is gone. You can be assured a significant bus investment bolstering existing routes with higher frequency, BRT monies, and potentially select streetcar expansion as part of Complete Streets initiatives.

And as with every transit discussion, the problem is the city’s budget obsorbing the ongoing O&M that such a initiative will generate in the city’s annual operating budget.

^^^ Any chance you have heard of any numbers in terms of dollar amounts floated for MAPS 4? I would like to see about 500 million from MAPS 4 go to mass transit in OKC.

Shadid raised the thought that every MAPS initiative doesn't necessarily have to be for a full 1 cent and the transit proponents have said that they need a 1/2 cent to make the RTA work...so it’s going to be really interesting to see how that shakes out...

Will the vast majority of suburbanites in a city that has been very effectively built around cars who’ll never use mass transit support that? It’s going to be very interesting to see...

I really miss Kerry (Just the facts)... He was very hard headed and loved confrontation in defending his ideas but one that really struck home with me was, our city is so spread out that it’s unrealistic to try and provide an excellent mass transit system to the the entire city... We should concentrate on having an excellent system in a more limited area such as inside the loop and maybe a little further west and over time, those that value mass transit the most would move to be within those boundary’s.

Shadid raised the thought that every MAPS initiative doesn't necessarily have to be for a full 1 cent and the transit proponents have said that they need a 1/2 cent to make the RTA work...so it’s going to be really interesting to see how that shakes out...

Will the vast majority of suburbanites in a city that has been very effectively built around cars who’ll never use mass transit support that? It’s going to be very interesting to see...

what is good about Shadid and pete's point about OKC's low sales tax is that we likely have room for Maps 1 cent to continue AND a Dedicated transit Tax

I really miss Kerry (Just the facts)... He was very hard headed and loved confrontation in defending his ideas but one that really struck home with me was, our city is so spread out that it’s unrealistic to try and provide an excellent mass transit system to the the entire city....

Yesterday it was interesting to hear JoBeth Hamon press back on more sprawl. She articulated some of the longterm consequences of further city development expansion on the fringe.

^^^ Any chance you have heard of any numbers in terms of dollar amounts floated for MAPS 4? I would like to see about 500 million from MAPS 4 go to mass transit in OKC.

I have heard between $80 million and $200 million as the window that they think MAPS 4 could budget for transit initiatives. This would essentially be an infrastructure bridge of meaningful public transit improvements to an eventual RTA vote. By my own calculations, a minimum of $185 million is required to do some of the things outlined in the previous posts.

This basically assumes that large chunks of MAPS are dedicated to the Mental Health/Family services Facility, the MAPS maintenance endowment, and other things.

My calculations are based on corridors, meaningful bus, BRT, streetcar improvements and what I think the annual Operating Budget of the City can absorb.

Where the MAPS transit investment could be expanded in meaningful ways is Complete Streets initiatives as part of corridor rehabilitation. Transit, bike lanes, sidewalks, transit platforms, median beautification, crosswalks, intelligent traffic signaling technology, and other amenities all rolled into one.

Yesterday there was an interesting dialogue about the speed of the streetcar and council members asking that it be sped up. I think that as part of median improvements, we need to incorporate dedicated ROW for any streetcar expansion, BRT, and intelligent traffic signaling for high-frequency bus corridors. Once you are outside of downtown, speed balanced with safety through good design and technology should be a priority. We should look at all of these things holistically.

I have heard between $80 million and $200 million as the window that they think MAPS 4 could budget for transit initiatives. This would essentially be an infrastructure bridge of meaningful public transit improvements to an eventual RTA vote. By my own calculations, a minimum of $185 million is required to do some of the things outlined in the previous posts.

This basically assumes that large chunks of MAPS are dedicated to the Mental Health/Family services Facility, the MAPS maintenance endowment, and other things.

My calculations are based on corridors, meaningful bus, BRT, streetcar improvements and what I think the annual Operating Budget of the City can absorb.

Where the MAPS transit investment could be expanded in meaningful ways is Complete Streets initiatives as part of corridor rehabilitation. Transit, bike lanes, sidewalks, transit platforms, median beautification, crosswalks, intelligent traffic signaling technology, and other amenities all rolled into one.

Yesterday there was an interesting dialogue about the speed of the streetcar and council members asking that it be sped up. I think that as part of median improvements, we need to incorporate dedicated ROW for any streetcar expansion, BRT, and intelligent traffic signaling for high-frequency bus corridors. Once you are outside of downtown, speed balanced with safety through good design and technology should be a priority. We should look at all of these things holistically.

Let's not forget the Better Streets & Safer City GO-Bonds passed in 2017, doesn't it address some of this.

Shadid raised the thought that every MAPS initiative doesn't necessarily have to be for a full 1 cent and the transit proponents have said that they need a 1/2 cent to make the RTA work...so it’s going to be really interesting to see how that shakes out...

Will the vast majority of suburbanites in a city that has been very effectively built around cars who’ll never use mass transit support that? It’s going to be very interesting to see...

We need a mass transit plan because otherwise things are going to really suck in 20 years.

The city is growing, and a lot of that growth is in the suburbs. But there's a hard limit on how much we can expand I-35. We can't really add extra lanes in many places because there's just no room. Traffic is already a lot worse than it was 10 years ago, and this problem isn't going to go away.

A mass transit system would help promote more dense developments. Today, you'd have to get in your car and drive to the train station, which doesn't make a lot of sense when you could just drive to your destination instead. But 20 years from now, traffic will be much worse and it might actually be faster to take the train. Theoretically at each train stop, you'd get a dense cluster of housing and shops that people would build. For maybe a quarter mile each direction (about a 5 minute walk) you'd get apartment buildings, townhomes, and neighborhoods built around a short walk to the train station. The people who lived nearby would regularly use the train instead of getting in their cars. Of course, there's no train system today, so that kind of housing isn't built yet.

But as traffic gets worse, people would start looking for an option where they could avoid it.

We need a mass transit plan because otherwise things are going to really suck in 20 years.Things are going to suck in 20 years if we neglect our car based infrastructure for mass transit based.

Here’s a thought; build and keep up both.

If OKC shifts heavily toward mass transit and stops sprawl, watch how expensive it becomes and how bad traffic gets. It will be rather ironic and then the problem will be that the city still isn’t doing enough of what made it expensive and congested to begin with. It sure won’t be the first city that happened in. See virtually every west coast city.

Future transit planning & investment in the central city will include bicycles. That's not wishful thinking - look at demographics in CBD & Midtown, Ward 2 representation, and a new City Manager.

you mean ward 6 rep, who only rides bicycle.

[At least one of] the streetcars is decked out in an OKC Playoff wrap. It looks amazing. We should do this to all the streetcars with sponsors and get away from the fares.

https://twitter.com/DowntownOKC/status/1116078522894831621

A mass transit system would help promote more dense developments. Today, you'd have to get in your car and drive to the train station, which doesn't make a lot of sense when you could just drive to your destination instead. But 20 years from now, traffic will be much worse and it might actually be faster to take the train. Theoretically at each train stop, you'd get a dense cluster of housing and shops that people would build. For maybe a quarter mile each direction (about a 5 minute walk) you'd get apartment buildings, townhomes, and neighborhoods built around a short walk to the train station. The people who lived nearby would regularly use the train instead of getting in their cars. Of course, there's no train system today, so that kind of housing isn't built yet.

But as traffic gets worse, people would start looking for an option where they could avoid it.

Hoya - You are exactly right. In Minneapolis/St. Paul - every time there is a stop on the Green/Blue Line trains you see apartments/lofts for days, services, restaurants, bars. Honestly - I see the Crossroads Mall area turning into a hot spot for development once the line is complete from Norman to Downtown OKC.

Hoya - You are exactly right. In Minneapolis/St. Paul - every time there is a stop on the Green/Blue Line trains you see apartments/lofts for days, services, restaurants, bars. Honestly - I see the Crossroads Mall area turning into a hot spot for development once the line is complete from Norman to Downtown OKC.

One of the proposed stops is at SE 4th in Moore. There's a lot of empty land in that area, and it's right next to their new aquatic center, and not too far from the Warren Theater and all the restaurants on 19th. It seems primed for massive investment. If I had the money to speculate on land, that's where I'd be looking.

The great part of it is, if you don't like the idea of mass transit, you don't have to use it. Every person riding the train is another person who is not clogging up the road. It's not going to Make Driving Great Again, because people will only start taking the train once traffic hits a certain point, but it may keep it from getting worse.

Let's not forget the Better Streets & Safer City GO-Bonds passed in 2017, doesn't it address some of this.

I don't know how far that initiative goes to create "complete streets". The improvements on Western are great south of 23rd. Beyond resurfacing projects, I have not seen many details on other initiatives.

I really miss Kerry (Just the facts)... He was very hard headed and loved confrontation in defending his ideas but one that really struck home with me was, our city is so spread out that it’s unrealistic to try and provide an excellent mass transit system to the the entire city... We should concentrate on having an excellent system in a more limited area such as inside the loop and maybe a little further west and over time, those that value mass transit the most would move to be within those boundary’s.

This is almost exactly what my partner and I were discussing when we vacationed in Malta. Their total land area is about half what OKC's is, and their population is also about half - and I'm sure tourism plays a large factor in it - but their bus system was phenomenal. During the week each line ran every 20 minutes. You could get almost anywhere in the populated areas in about 20 or 30 minutes tops. You could traverse the entire Big Island in about an hour. There are several differences to consider, but I thought it to be a good example of transportation done right.

There really are days when I dislike driving - not because there is a LOT of traffic, but because of the way people drive. If we had a good and more thorough bus service, I'd be inclined to use it daily to go to work. A