I’m a bit surprised that now, this late in the project, spare parts and reasonable expenditures to ensure that EMBARK is not saddled with unreasonable operational costs is now a issue. I get that you don’t like the streetcar OKCGuy, but the train has departed.

I’m a bit surprised that now, this late in the project, spare parts and reasonable expenditures to ensure that EMBARK is not saddled with unreasonable operational costs is now a issue. I get that you don’t like the streetcar OKCGuy, but the train has departed.

- Streetcar is the only MAPS project I don’t like.

- Costs are something voters should all be tuned into but the attitude I see here by those involved or supporting it show a segment assuming money grows on trees.

- This is a tourist ride

- The road design is wrong

- Downtown needs to start taxing their own downtowners for these pet projects

- The rest of OKC does not share your sentiment and if you don’t believe me just wait until MAPS 4 fails which is sad because there are good projects the forgotten part of OKC would support

Its ok to keep that attitude because the train may have left the station but is not going far.

I’ll let you know what my councilman says once he responds, still waiting.

1 - Streetcar is the only MAPS project I don’t like.

2 - Costs are something voters should all be tuned into but the attitude I see here by those involved or supporting it show a segment assuming money grows on trees.

3 - This is a tourist ride

4 - The road design is wrong

5 - Downtown needs to start taxing their own downtowners for these pet projects

6 - The rest of OKC does not share your sentiment and if you don’t believe me just wait until MAPS 4 fails which is sad because there are good projects the forgotten part of OKC would support

Its ok to keep that attitude because the train may have left the station but is not going far.

I’ll let you know what my councilman says once he responds, still waiting.

I added numbers to talk about each one at a time:
1. Obviously...
2. Where were you on the other projects when came in over budget or had to cut something back? The Oklahoma River Improvements scaled back improvements significantly; The wellness centers were originally supposed to be aquatic centers; the number of sidewalks were scaled back as costs went up; the Bennett Event Center already has leaks that is going to cost the city money.
3. No it is not. It is a downtown circulator that is the start of a much larger project including an RTA. There needs to be a way for people to get around downtown when they get there and it is just the start of hopefully many more miles of streetcar throughout the inner core and BRT outside of it.
4. Why do you say that?
5. It is a city sales tax that everyone can vote on.
6. I know a lot of people who hate the streetcar and think it was a waste of money. Those are the same people who thought the Ford Center was a waster of money too. Look where we are now.

I added numbers to talk about each one at a time:
1. Obviously...
2. Where were you on the other projects when came in over budget or had to cut something back? The Oklahoma River Improvements scaled back improvements significantly; The wellness centers were originally supposed to be aquatic centers; the number of sidewalks were scaled back as costs went up; the Bennett Event Center already has leaks that is going to cost the city money.
3. No it is not. It is a downtown circulator that is the start of a much larger project including an RTA. There needs to be a way for people to get around downtown when they get there and it is just the start of hopefully many more miles of streetcar throughout the inner core and BRT outside of it.
4. Why do you say that?
5. It is a city sales tax that everyone can vote on.
6. I know a lot of people who hate the streetcar and think it was a waste of money. Those are the same people who thought the Ford Center was a waster of money too. Look where we are now.

1. I supported all other projects

2. None required this big of outlay 3 months after opening. The Wellness centers are booming with business

3. Its a tourist ride. When OMNI and Convention center open that will be its most useful need. It does not circulate in a timely manner to be called a method to move mass people and reduce traffic. For the money we could have purchased and run free at least 20 luxury min buses much faster. Plus as the cars start to break they stop the whole system. Had the route been tic tac toe type design running back and forth without turns it would have been more people mover and easier to expand outward. This current sustem is not able to help anyone driving to work as there are no hub parking areas for it plus peole can park in lots close to work. No one is riding car from Edmond or Moore to get on a system that is too untimely. It would add 20-30 minutes to their commute. This system is only useful to those who live close tourists or bar hopping. Its a tourist ride.

4. See 3

5. Yes. And every MAPS has seen declining approval percentage.

6. There is no comparison from MAPS1 to now. Back then we had nothing downtown and it was dead. MAPS 1 transformed our city. MAPS 2 also was needed. MAPS 3 was good except streetcar. We should have focused on getting people to downtown first and could have focused on RTA first. This SC failure is going to set back support for RTA bigtime imo. SC was more a want than a need. Our outter bus system is broken and had we started with bus hubs and service first this would have proved the merits of moving people to downtown from other areas. We went from needs to wants and this has now created a division of people and how they view OKC (residents not visitors). As you can see from this thread the attitude has changed from one united city to downtowners and burbs. Downtowners now feel entitled to every pet project without consideration of costs and future operating expenses. They scoff at voters like me who being up faults or concerns. Its a gang mentality to protect pet projects.

Any future MAPS thats bundled will fail to pass. We are at the poikt we need to vote each project independently else all will fail if bundled. For me no matter what is in MAPS 4 if it has any Streetcar funding mark me down as no vote. And many others feel the same I would easily say its a majority. I would vote for a soccer stadium on its own but not bundled with SC expenses. MAPS 1 to MAPS 4 are night and day different. Our downtown is doing great now and needs to start being self supporting more. We still need to protect Thunder and Peake is going to need major money in about 10 or so years. If we keep spending on major new projects by then there will be no money for major upkeep of Peake. At some point it will need a new tax to rebuild or do major upgrade and we have to hope all these other pet projected projects don’t take away the money or support.

Very few cities have had success with SC. Portland is a rare example. We need to wait some years before dumping more money in SC:

1. Will it ever gain daily riders

2. How efficient can it run since it competes with cars

3. How many times does it break down and stop whole system. We won’t know for a few years but spending $2,500,000 on extra spare parts in 3rd month does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling this is efficient system. We already got parts and warranty so does this outlay scream “system is so prone to breakdowns we need to buy mega spare parts now”. If it was reliable there is no need. We have spare cars and parts already. So this is excess monies imo.

4. Where will RTA hubs be? If we had rail bringing people downtown we would need a large area to process them

5. What if we discover later on the location of tracks is not ideal for inflow RTA or even business? Can’t easily pull up rails and move.

6. We left off close by areas and locked them out of ownership. For example the large mecdical district could have been a great spar had they run rails east/west on 10th. Could have been more inclusive with initial plan. Now with it having rough start all monemtum was lost and people are not going to support expansion especially with all these added costs just 3 months in. Its a tourist ride not a people mover and that is something everyone needs to embrace. Its calling card is OMNI and convention center and bar hopping and some events.


Once MAPS 4 fails all the good of prior MAPS will be lost. I am turned off by the attitude of downtowners who run to attack anyone who questions the SC.

5. Yes. And every MAPS has seen declining approval percentage.

You know that you are completely wrong on this easily verifiable fact, right?

Metropolitan Area Projects plan 1993: Yes 33,367 - 55 percent $350 million
Metropolitan Area Projects plan for Kids 2001: Yes 36,866 - 61 percent $700 million
MAPS for Hoops extension for NBA arena upgrades 2008: Yes 44,849 - 62 percent $121.6 million
MAPS III 2009: Yes 40,956 - 54 percent $777 million (only year of decline)


Sources:

Metropolitan Area Projects Plan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Area_Projects_Plan
Voters approve $121.6 million in arena upgrades to lure NBA team: http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3277413

Metropolitan Area Projects plan 1993: Yes 33,367 - 55 percent $350 million
Metropolitan Area Projects plan for Kids 2001: Yes 36,866 - 61 percent $700 million
MAPS for Hoops extension for NBA arena upgrades 2008: Yes 44,849 - 62 percent $121.6 million
MAPS III 2009: Yes 40,956 - 54 percent $777 million (only year of decline)


Sources:

Metropolitan Area Projects Plan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Area_Projects_Plan
Voters approve $121.6 million in arena upgrades to lure NBA team: http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3277413

Ok so I was wrong on MAPS1 to MAPS2.

Arena was standalone and an extension of one project when the city had recently obtained a BB franchise and city had embraced Thunder with mega support.

Maps2 to 3 declined and that was 10 years ago. The out of downtown city has grown so much in those 10 years and suffice it to say are turned off by Streetcar. If Maps4 has SC included I predict a failure. So many citizens are disenfranchised like bus service around the city and roads needs.

Every MAPS initiative have had unpopular projects voters didn't like. What would you, OKC Guy like to see on MAPS IV and what have you submitted?

If you want MAPS 4 to be for neighborhoods; please submit your ideas to Ideas for MAPS 4: https://www.okc.gov/government/maps-4


https://youtu.be/iEw1E_UtjjE

The SC good or bad, is that OKC rejected streetcars almost 70 years ago and became an auto, suburban, white flight city. It’s going to be difficult to now add mass transit, or commuter rail into that sprawl. With no continuity, creating something new is going to have some mistakes. Seperate the Bricktown loop from the Downtown loop. It would be neat to have the Streetcars passing each other between the Devon building and the Park. A missed opportunity. And much more efficient on the weekends.

Streetcar ridership got cut in half last month once they started collecting fares.

http://www.news9.com/story/40139934/number-of-streetcar-riders-in-okc-dropped-more-than-50-in-february

I want the streetcar to be a success, but we might be years or a decade away from the time before we can say whether is was a success or not.

Seems like most of the public sentiment is negative right now. Asking for any kind if extention on the next maps vote would be a death nail.

Why don’t they allow each project to be voted on individually with MAPS 4?

So the projects the CoC wants that the public doesn't will get approved piggy back style.

So what time are they checking fares and what time are they not. Got on yesterday about 5 did the bricktown loop from the gardens to ballpark. No one checked maybe about 15 on car. After movie at 10pm someone was on their checking for fares. Busy at that point. Are they doing much checking during business hours or pretty much just nights.

I've only been queried for my pass once, last weekend during the big 12 tournament.

OKC Guy is seeing this as wasteful spending when t is quite literally the opposite. If a streetcar breaks for any reason, getting a part shipped overnight from the manufacturer is a very costly maneuver. They increase the price and tack on exhorborant fees and handling charges on top of the cost to ship it. While it’s not necessary to have it on hand, it saves the taxpayers money in the future by reducing cost to acquire parts, insulates the public from the burden of dealing with a manufacturer that is out of business (if that were to happen), and increases the reliability of the system as a car out of service can be returned to service same day or next day, instead of several days later.

To me, that is a shining example of an efficient and cost effective government. Bravo to the streetcar committee, MAPS board, and OKC for thinking ahead and procuring parts ahead of time. We are blessed to have a system that is forward thinking.

And, to OKC guy’s point about insurance and warranties, those parts and labor charges can be paid out by the insurance company or warranty even after a part has been changed out. So if a GeeWhiz XYZ3000 fails on the streetcar due to a collision with a passenger vehicle, GW XYZ3000 can be replaced since it is on hand, and insurance can buy that part for OKC to replenish the spare. Seems like you’d rather have the vehicle out of service for 3 weeks while insurance decides what they want to pay. In a transportation system the goal is reliability, and who pays for repairs or warranty work is always figured out later.

To bring my company back into the equation, we lease a lot of the engines. But guess who replaces broken parts? We do because it’s quicker. Who compensates United for the work? The engine lessor.

I just can’t figure out the controversy here.

Ok so I was wrong on MAPS1 to MAPS2.

Arena was standalone and an extension of one project when the city had recently obtained a BB franchise and city had embraced Thunder with mega support.

Maps2 to 3 declined and that was 10 years ago. The out of downtown city has grown so much in those 10 years and suffice it to say are turned off by Streetcar. If Maps4 has SC included I predict a failure. So many citizens are disenfranchised like bus service around the city and roads needs.

Why do you persist in passing off your opinions as fact? You don't like the project, you have made this abundantly clear, but that does not mean the rest of the city agrees with you.

Oklahoma City, OK - New data shows the streetcars are struggling to keep traction a few months after opening.

According to new data from the transportation department ridership has dropped by more than 50% since the city started collecting fares February 1st. In January nearly 49,000 people hopped on the streetcars, but that number fell to less than 21,000 people last month

Oklahoma City, OK - New data shows the streetcars are struggling to keep traction a few months after opening.

According to new data from the transportation department ridership has dropped by more than 50% since the city started collecting fares February 1st. In January nearly 49,000 people hopped on the streetcars, but that number fell to less than 21,000 people last month

http://www.news9.com/story/40139934/number-of-streetcar-riders-in-okc-dropped-more-than-50-in-february

Why don’t they allow each project to be voted on individually with MAPS 4?

They should else it will all be defeated

We are past the point where downtown was dead and just about everything was good. Now we starting to get to pet projects or looking for something to spend money on.

Its good they are asking for input but it highlights there are not any pressing needs. MAPS 1 was a pressing need and a huge success.

I think they bundle as an old habit and to squeeze in less popular items knowing they won’t pass alone. Voters are wising up.

Keep on mind every project we add adds reocurring costs so with the amount of projects already done that bill gets higher and higher. At some point we can’t sustain every project and some will start to slip into disrepair or substandard.

I wish I could find a listing of annual expenses by item such as ballpark and canal and Peake and rapids. Would be nice to get a sense of what they are.

We have and are adding streetcar and convention center which will have some major annual expense needs which I mainly want to see which projects will or have suck up cost needs over time.

Voting seperate is the way to go foreard in my opinion.

Why do you persist in passing off your opinions as fact? You don't like the project, you have made this abundantly clear, but that does not mean the rest of the city agrees with you.

David, we're still waiting to hear what projects he submitted? He never answered that question because he's a MAPS' naysayer.

Again, OKC Guy, what project have you submitted to Ideas 4 MAPS?

David, we're still waiting to hear what projects he submitted? He never answered that question because he's a MAPS' naysayer.

Again, OKC Guy, what project have you submitted to Ideas 4 MAPS?

Maybe when you and the rest list yours forst then I might.

I can assure you my councilman has my list and is aware if its bundled I vote no.

Also, good effort on the current topic derail, some will try anything to deflect. The $2,500,000 was not needed nor is it a smart move at this juncture. We have spare parts from the manufacturer based on prior history that we already paid for. We have warranty. We do not know what parts will break years down the road and may have bought wrong spare parts. We have no public list of parts for such a big outlay. We have no way of knowing where and how parts will be kept to prevent loss or stolen. We have no accountibility because we can’t get a list of parts. Why is it such a secret? Only one place place makes them. Keep in mind this in 3rd month of go live. Why buy a spare battery when ours are warranted and the tech will change? Does Prius owners buy a spare battery years before they might need it? Do Car owners buy spare batteries?

Lots of unanswered questions and I have a right to know as a taxpayer. The difficulty in even getting info is how cities lose trust that was so hard to earn over a few decades. One project is garnering all the bad press why is that?

Maybe when you and the rest list yours forst then I might.

I can assure you my councilman has my list and is aware if its bundled I vote no.

Also, good effort on the current topic derail, some will try anything to deflect. The $2,500,000 was not needed nor is it a smart move at this juncture. We have spare parts from the manufacturer based on prior history that we already paid for. We have warranty. We do not know what parts will break years down the road and may have bought wrong spare parts. We have no public list of parts for such a big outlay. We have no way of knowing where and how parts will be kept to prevent loss or stolen. We have no accountibility because we can’t get a list of parts. Why is it such a secret? Only one place place makes them. Keep in mind this in 3rd month of go live. Why buy a spare battery when ours are warranted and the tech will change? Does Prius owners buy a spare battery years before they might need it? Do Car owners buy spare batteries?

Lots of unanswered questions and I have a right to know as a taxpayer. The difficulty in even getting info is how cities lose trust that was so hard to earn over a few decades. One project is garnering all the bad press why is that?

I have come to the conclusion that you are a troll and probably have never been to OKC. I suspect that you may not even be in the United States. Your posts indicate only a superficial awareness of this community and provide no positive contribution. Despite attempts by numerous posters to direct you to where you can find the answers to the questions that you have raised you have continued to claim that secrets are being kept from you. Go ahead and vote no if you can. If I am wrong and you really are a taxpayer your councilman has my sympathy.

This message is hidden because OKC Guy is on your ignore list.
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This isn’t so bad now.

I don’t even keep up with any really close streetcar stuff, but it’s pretty clear to me that this isn’t a “three months in, everything is broken, we need parts” situation. It’s a “we got extra funds, so let’s warehouse stuff in case we need it in 5+ years and then use it right away without having to order or machine something” opportunity.

I don’t even keep up with any really close streetcar stuff, but it’s pretty clear to me that this isn’t a “three months in, everything is broken, we need parts” situation. It’s a “we got extra funds, so let’s warehouse stuff in case we need it in 5+ years and then use it right away without having to order or machine something” opportunity.

this is absolutly correct ..... and all of the MAPS projects were/are able to have some of the "extra" maps funds .....

The SC good or bad, is that OKC rejected streetcars almost 70 years ago and became an auto, suburban, white flight city.

this is not really accurate

I am not going to address the line by line commentary on here. However, I would like to point out, while I might be one of the biggest supporters of the streetcar, I am also one of it's fiercest critics.

Red lights, incorrectly parked cars, and fares have been significant problems. We are funding a resolution to the lights and about 1/3rd have been resolved. The parked cars seem to be better resolved after the online criticism over the change in handling to OCPD (both on OKCTALK and Twitter). The fares are for others to decide. I have been and always will be against fares. To me, the streetcar should be essentially a pedestrian enabler. It should be an extension of our built environment to lessen the need for more parking, better land use, less noise, and fewer emissions.

If there are extensions proposed in MAPS 4, they need to be carefully considered and in tandem part of a thoughtful land use plan. Ideally, extensions would be in dual-track alignments and if possible, in isolated right-of-ways.

The streetcar was never meant to be the end solution to the historic 80-year lack of investment in public transit in the OKC metro. It was meant to be the centerpiece of a comprehensive plan involving more city buses, commuter rail, and BRT.

I think we should have a conversation about what using the streetcar in a traditional light-rail format in the context of extensions might look like. And I write this simply because I think that dual-purpose alignments on BNSF (freight rail) are highly questionable. In the next few months, hopefully, we will have some answers from the RTA about this issue.

Regarding overall ridership numbers, a significant drop is to be expected with fares and the confusion surrounding them. There is also a direct correlation between high-ridership days and weather conditions. As weather operations improve, red lights go away, and the city operates the streetcar more efficiently, it will be interesting to see how things level out.

I am not going to address the line by line commentary on here. However, I would like to point out, while I might be one of the biggest supporters of the streetcar, I am also one of it's fiercest critics.

Red lights, incorrectly parked cars, and fares have been significant problems. We are funding a resolution to the lights and about 1/3rd have been resolved. The parked cars seem to be better resolved after the online criticism over the change in handling to OCPD (both on OKCTALK and Twitter). The fares are for others to decide. I have been and always will be against fares. To me, the streetcar should be essentially a pedestrian enabler. It should be an extension of our built environment to lessen the need for more parking, better land use, less noise, and fewer emissions.

If there are extensions proposed in MAPS 4, they need to be carefully considered and in tandem part of a thoughtful land use plan. Ideally, extensions would be in dual-track alignments and if possible, in isolated right-of-ways.

The streetcar was never meant to be the end solution to the historic 80-year lack of investment in public transit in the OKC metro. It was meant to be the centerpiece of a comprehensive plan involving more city buses, commuter rail, and BRT.

I think we should have a conversation about what using the streetcar in a traditional light-rail format in the context of extensions might look like. And I write this simply because I think that dual-purpose alignments on BNSF (freight rail) are highly questionable. In the next few months, hopefully, we will have some answers from the RTA about this issue.

Regarding overall ridership numbers, a significant drop is to be expected with fares and the confusion surrounding them. There is also a direct correlation between high-ridership days and weather conditions. As weather operations improve, red lights go away, and the city operates the streetcar more efficiently, it will be interesting to see how things level out.

and UP, myself and i think many others on here appreciate your comments and your concerns. absolutely you have been on of the fiercest critics of the streetcar, because you want it to work. i always look forward to your posts about what is going on with the streetcar, they are always informative and give me hope that maybe someday it can be the project that i wanted it to be from the get go.

The SC good or bad, is that OKC rejected streetcars almost 70 years ago and became an auto, suburban, white flight city.

The two are totally separate issues.
Forced bussing and school integration triggered white flight.

The two are totally separate issues.
Forced bussing and school integration triggered white flight.

I’m not taking sides, but having graduated from old John Marshall in 1968, there was no suburban Edmond, Moore, etc., and there was no mass transit. Right or wrong is not the debate, but people flocked to the new suburbs, via their cars, and we became spread out. It’s great to see downtown returning, and the maps program has made that possible. But building mass transit here is not going to be easy, or without mistakes.
.

.

...

Red lights, incorrectly parked cars, and fares have been significant problems. We are funding a resolution to the lights and about 1/3rd have been resolved. The parked cars seem to be better resolved after the online criticism over the change in handling to OCPD (both on OKCTALK and Twitter). The fares are for others to decide. I have been and always will be against fares. To me, the streetcar should be essentially a pedestrian enabler. It should be an extension of our built environment to lessen the need for more parking, better land use, less noise, and fewer emissions....

Agree with the last three sentences, absolutely. Didn't know that the parked cars problem had been resolved (or at least somewhat), how was that done?

We had a very aggressive EMBARK-based enforcement calling in tows. Then enforcement policies changed to OCPD handling it. I believe EMBARK is taking more initiative back on these issues due to the negative response. I have noticed a difference in frequency myself but will re-confirm at the next meeting.

I have come to the conclusion that you are a troll and probably have never been to OKC. I suspect that you may not even be in the United States. Your posts indicate only a superficial awareness of this community and provide no positive contribution. Despite attempts by numerous posters to direct you to where you can find the answers to the questions that you have raised you have continued to claim that secrets are being kept from you. Go ahead and vote no if you can. If I am wrong and you really are a taxpayer your councilman has my sympathy.

Attack the poster not the content (gang mentality here).

I have a question for you, what entertainment venue was in bricktown ballpark forced to close down for MAPS 1 and what made it unique.

My guess is you have no clue and only a resident will know this answer.

I can assure you I an an upstanding citizen in OKC but when I question one MAPS project (out of many) there seems to be a gang up attitude here where only positive discussion can take place and anyone raising serious questions is labeled as an outcast, just like what you are doing.

I’ll wait for your reply but guessing you don’t know the answer.

This isn’t so bad now.


Some hate to hear the other side of topics, so its best you bowed out.

Thanks for the heads up I will likely lose sleep over this. Was hoping you could answer the $2,500,000 questions.

I am not going to address the line by line commentary on here. However, I would like to point out, while I might be one of the biggest supporters of the streetcar, I am also one of it's fiercest critics.

Red lights, incorrectly parked cars, and fares have been significant problems. We are funding a resolution to the lights and about 1/3rd have been resolved. The parked cars seem to be better resolved after the online criticism over the change in handling to OCPD (both on OKCTALK and Twitter). The fares are for others to decide. I have been and always will be against fares. To me, the streetcar should be essentially a pedestrian enabler. It should be an extension of our built environment to lessen the need for more parking, better land use, less noise, and fewer emissions.

If there are extensions proposed in MAPS 4, they need to be carefully considered and in tandem part of a thoughtful land use plan. Ideally, extensions would be in dual-track alignments and if possible, in isolated right-of-ways.

The streetcar was never meant to be the end solution to the historic 80-year lack of investment in public transit in the OKC metro. It was meant to be the centerpiece of a comprehensive plan involving more city buses, commuter rail, and BRT.

I think we should have a conversation about what using the streetcar in a traditional light-rail format in the context of extensions might look like. And I write this simply because I think that dual-purpose alignments on BNSF (freight rail) are highly questionable. In the next few months, hopefully, we will have some answers from the RTA about this issue.

Regarding overall ridership numbers, a significant drop is to be expected with fares and the confusion surrounding them. There is also a direct correlation between high-ridership days and weather conditions. As weather operations improve, red lights go away, and the city operates the streetcar more efficiently, it will be interesting to see how things level out.

I actually agree with not all but most of your post.

Regarding overall ridership numbers, a significant drop is to be expected with fares and the confusion surrounding them. There is also a direct correlation between high-ridership days and weather conditions. As weather operations improve, red lights go away, and the city operates the streetcar more efficiently, it will be interesting to see how things level out.

Yep. Spring and summer are really going to be where this gets tested. This is just anecdotal, but every time I have been downtown recently in nice weather I see plenty of people riding.

Some hate to hear the other side of topics, so its best you bowed out.

Thanks for the heads up I will likely lose sleep over this. Was hoping you could answer the $2,500,000 questions.

because like with every other time you get into a back and forth is someone on this site... you got an answer, you didn't like it, so you chose to ignore it.... and this is not be deflecting (cause i know you hate that) that is me providing the context of what is actually going on. you got the answer as to why they are spending $2.5 million on spare parts, because it is common, and that is what other cities with this type of system do... so, since they do it, we decided to do it as well, to hopefully save on time and speed of repairs. this has been told to you several times in the past few pages of this thread... you reject this idea... great... but it's still the answer, there isn't another one.

Can we all now move on? it's a gorgeous day... hopefully some people will be using the streetcar this afternoon!

I don’t even keep up with any really close streetcar stuff, but it’s pretty clear to me that this isn’t a “three months in, everything is broken, we need parts” situation. It’s a “we got extra funds, so let’s warehouse stuff in case we need it in 5+ years and then use it right away without having to order or machine something” opportunity.

Bingo. That's exactly correct.

So how did we get here?

Going back we were all told light prioritization was needed badly.

So one or two months ago there was a meeting and this is where money was again asked for the lights system.

But they did not approve funding all the lights at once I think the ask was $640k and they got $200k.

So then outrage ensued and people asking why not was funded as it was a top priority need.

Fast forward to last week and they funded the rest of lights.

And here is where I had (and still have) a beef. It took screaming and hollering just to get lights approved in 2 meetings. The screaming went on for way longer though this was ID’d long ago. So it took a long long time (years actually) to approve $640k for something needed “NOW”! And yet out of blue we spent $2,500,000 on spare parts with no to little discussion for parts not needed for years? I posted the minutes and link too. This $2,500,000 just popped up and presto, approved!

So everyone claimed we needed lights approved and it was like pulling teeth to get it over 2 appovals. And we approved $2,500,000 in one meeting with not even a whipser? And we won’t need these spares for years because we got spares (and warranties) in contract.

And I’m the crazy one for bringing this up? Don’t you see how bad this looks when you compare the 2?

$640k light priority - took forever and 2 approvals

$2,500,000 spares. Approved in one meeting no advance discussion and not needed for years.

So how did we get here?

Going back we were all told light prioritization was needed badly.

So one or two months ago there was a meeting and this is where money wasagain asked for the lights system.

But they did not approve funding all the lights, I think the ask was $640k and they got $200k.

So then outrage ensued and people asking why not was funded.

Fast forward to last week and they funded the rest of lights.

And here is where I had (and still have) a beef. It took screaming and hollering just to get lights approved in 2 meetings. The screaming went on for way longer though thhis was ID’d long ago. So it took a long long time (years actually) to approve $640k for something needed “NOW”! And yet out of blue we spent $2,500,000 on spare parts with no to little discussion ahead of time? I posted the minutes and link too.

So everyone claimed we needed lights approved and it was like pulling terth to get it over 2 appovals. And we approved $2,500,000 in one meeting with not even a whipser? And we won’t need these spares for years because we got spares (and warranties) in contract.

And I’m the crazy one for bringing this up? Don’t you see how bad this looks when you compare the 2?

$640k light priority - took forever and 2 approvals

$2,500,000 spares. Approved in one meeting no advance discussion and not needed for years.

no... never said you were crazy for bringing it up... but there isn't another answer... the city had no issue with the spare parts, because they probably had someone call up a few other cities, and ask them if they kept a bunch of spare parts... they said yes, so they just assumed this was something that needed to be done.

that also was mentioned as a reason as to why this was happening. is it dumb that the system sometimes works this way? yes... but that is sometimes how government works, you have to fight tooth and nail for things that should be simple to approve and things that sometimes don't make as much sense at the time pass through easily and without question.

again... that's the answer... there isn't anything else to say... bringing up again and again and again isn't going to change what the answer is... because it is what it is.

the reason people have started to put you on ignore, or call you a troll is you keep bring up the same thing and fighting with people, just because you don't like the answer, or just ignore it and claim that one hasn't been given to you.

So how did we get here?

Going back we were all told light prioritization was needed badly.

So one or two months ago there was a meeting and this is where money was again asked for the lights system.

But they did not approve funding all the lights at once I think the ask was $640k and they got $200k.

So then outrage ensued and people asking why not was funded as it was a top priority need.

Fast forward to last week and they funded the rest of lights.

And here is where I had (and still have) a beef. It took screaming and hollering just to get lights approved in 2 meetings. The screaming went on for way longer though this was ID’d long ago. So it took a long long time (years actually) to approve $640k for something needed “NOW”! And yet out of blue we spent $2,500,000 on spare parts with no to little discussion for parts not needed for years? I posted the minutes and link too. This $2,500,000 just popped up and presto, approved!

So everyone claimed we needed lights approved and it was like pulling teeth to get it over 2 appovals. And we approved $2,500,000 in one meeting with not even a whipser? And we won’t need these spares for years because we got spares (and warranties) in contract.

And I’m the crazy one for bringing this up? Don’t you see how bad this looks when you compare the 2?

$640k light priority - took forever and 2 approvals

$2,500,000 spares. Approved in one meeting no advance discussion and not needed for years.

Context. Context is everything. If you read back through the thread, the streetcar committee has gotten a lot of pushback from city planning / traffic engineers on implementing streetcar priority at intersections - and they have been getting this pushback for a long, long time. The city's engineers prefer a "wait and see" method of only addressing problems if/when they arise, without listening to the experts that have been telling them for a long time that signal prioritization is hugely important to maintain the on-time performance of the streetcar, and it needs to be done all at once to ensure that public expectations are met. That's why there was such a fight to get that funding approved. However, there has been no comparable pushback to ensuring that the Streetcar and Embark has spares on hand to ensure high availability and high reliability of each of the seven streetcar vehicles and their supporting infrastructure.

Here are ideas I've submitted so far:


Stadium on riverfront ($125 million)
Arena replacement at State Fair Park ($125 million)
Streetcar future expansion study & funding ($100 million)
Neighborhood entrance markers, planters, lighting ($200 million budget)
Space Tower ($25 million budget) near AICCM or State Fair Park

Aquarium, Aquatic & Wellness Center Complex ($225 million budget) at Zoo or Riverfront
Endowment Fund ($100 million budget) to fund repairs, upgrades & operational expense shortfalls.

Grand total $900 million for MAPS 4.

Appreciate that for the 1st time OKC citizens/voters have been asked to submit ideas for a MAPS initiative.

Will send in a final idea for MAPS 4:


Chesapeake Energy Arena upgrades/renovation ($75 million budget)

Grand total $975 million for MAPS 4; projected collections over 8.5 years

the reason people have started to put you on ignore, or call you a troll is you keep bring up the same thing and fighting with people, just because you don't like the answer, or just ignore it and claim that one hasn't been given to you.

That and the pattern of claiming to be attacked when he's the one attacking others.

Context. Context is everything. If you read back through the thread, the streetcar committee has gotten a lot of pushback from city planning / traffic engineers on implementing streetcar priority at intersections - and they have been getting this pushback for a long, long time. The city's engineers prefer a "wait and see" method of only addressing problems if/when they arise, without listening to the experts that have been telling them for a long time that signal prioritization is hugely important to maintain the on-time performance of the streetcar, and it needs to be done all at once to ensure that public expectations are met. That's why there was such a fight to get that funding approved. However, there has been no comparable pushback to ensuring that the Streetcar and Embark has spares on hand to ensure high availability and high reliability of each of the seven streetcar vehicles and their supporting infrastructure.

Thank you for a well thought out reply.

To my point I understand traffic dept put up resistance on lights and rightfully so, its good to have someone watching and questioning expenses. It was also good they approved the lights after a lot of static. So in the end we had oversight and approval.

To the parts thats where my beef is. Its 5 times the money and no one is oversighting it. We had no urgent need for parts, as I posted the contract details we got spares with our initial spend. And we also got a warranty.

I have read the thread and minutes and nowhere is it saying we urgently needed these spare parts. Posters are speculating on why they think we need them but this came out of the blue. And its a lot of money. To my point the lights affected another city dept and was questioned. But there is no seperate parts (maintenance) dept to question the parts in a similar fashion other than the SC maint team itself asking for them.

I simply questioned how it was so easy to approve parts with no discussion or inmediate need yet the lights have been talked about for months and longer and still took 2 meetings to get approved.

No one will ever convince me my questioning this large outlay is wrong. We are in 3rd month of go live and if we approved so much parts money this easy now, my fear is we will sneak in parts expendutures routinely without anyone providing proper oversight or questioning needs.

The parts issue is not directed at you or any poster I was simply questioning the fast approval amd asking if any of the board insiders could direct me to the meeting/s where it was ever questioned or addressed. I posted the link to 2017 where the spares and warranty were addressed but then this newest approval came up suddenly and approved without any pushback or oversight from another agency.

Its fair to question it and not sure why some posters took it personally. The very first reply after my question was a snide remark form a committee member and it just went sideways after that. Had he replied respectfully with facts it may have avoided some of the bad vibes.

As it has been mentioned, the MAPS projects we're provided some extra funds, including the SC, and they made the decision to purchase parts for future use. Buy now, buy later, the powers that be made an investment, hopefully to reduce downtime if and when a repair comes up.

As it has been mentioned, the MAPS projects we're provided some extra funds, including the SC, and they made the decision to purchase parts for future use. Buy now, buy later, the powers that be made an investment, hopefully to reduce downtime if and when a repair comes up.

My beef is the mentality of spending money just because its there not due to a need. Posters speculate a need but the manufacturer provided extra spare parts they felt were needed (and we paid for as part of deal). Because they also provide a warranty their recommendation would carry more weight than non mechanics praying the additional parts purchased just so happen to be what may be needed years down the road.

Are any of the voting members certified street car mechanics?

And if they knew street cars would break down on top of what was purchased that would indicate we bought the wrong streetcar system.

I am trying to be logical but its $2,500,000 uneeded expense. Why the rush to spend this money. What if we discover some other more pressing need? Maybe an app or other method to help ID wait times?

Its pure specualtion what parts will break. And warranty should cover losses if the contract was vetted properly.

Put up against the immediate need for lights fix this spend was handled so differently and I am still waiting for my councilman to reply. Which is not good its taking him so long but maybe when he checks records that I actually vote he will get back to me soon.

I have no beef with the way lights were handled and wish parts had seen the same scrutiny.

If it wasn't this, it'd be something else. There's an excess of MAPS funds. It has to be spent on MAPS projects. If the streetcar subcommittee said "nah, send it back", then that 2.5M would have gone to another MAPS program and spent some other way. If the streetcar subcommittee took the money and didn't spend it on parts, they would have spent it on something else, maybe on an extra block of track towards capitol hill just to get folks talking about extensions, who knows. The option you want, not spending 2.5M at all, was not available.

Shawn you’re wasting your time with this guy.

Appreciate that for the 1st time OKC citizens/voters have been asked to submit ideas for a MAPS initiative.

WHAT?? that was the process in MAPS3

Shawn you’re wasting your time with this guy.

I agree, I think it's time to pull a "catch move" and bow out.

To put it quite simply, our committee trusts City Employees and the EMBARK Staff to tell us what they need to be successful. Jason Febrache, the EMBARK / COTPA Director, was the system's accountant before he became the director. The person who operates the streetcar system was formerly on MAPS staff. Consultants don't always get it 100% right. In fact, its doubtful they ever get it 100% right. Since our system was approved ten years ago, Brookeville has completed Dallas, Detroit, Milwaukee, and others. Transit agencies talk to one another. EMBARK struggles every year to maximize the dollar and keep their annual budget balanced while constantly striving to improve transit service. As I stated in previous posts, our original ask was around $6.5 million. in the spirit of cooperation with other committees, we reduced that to allow more funds for other projects. The new budget is an allocation so that the overall surplus funds budget can be programmed and timed, not an actual disbursement. Some of the earlier assertions are completely false. A cursory examination of minutes going back over a year or watching video tapings of the meetings will easily demonstrate these matters have been in discussion since it was announced that we would have a surplus that would allow every project to reexamine targets, goals, oversights, and bring them into proper alignment. But in the end, we trust our City of OKC Employees to tell us what they need to be successful.

Also, since the weather has been improved, I have observed a very apparent spike in ridership at nearly all hours expect early morning.

Also, since the weather has been improved, I have observed a very apparent spike in ridership at nearly all hours expect early morning.

Shhhhh! Facts like these don't help the narrative some people want to push. That being that the streetcar has already failed, and not that ridership declined over one month, the month that coincidentally is when fares started AND the coldest month of the year.

I was actually very encouraged that ridership only dropped by half in February. Not only was it the worst month of the year, weather wise, but also we started charging money to ride it, and December/January were heavy tourist times downtown when people were riding the streetcar just because it was the thing to do.

Dropping only 50% seemed like a big success to me.

what all the people on social media sharing the story and celebrating the " I told you so moment" failed to note. was that the drop was anticipated and not really surprising.

Passed one of the Bermuda green streetcar around 10:30 a.m. yesterday; would estimate there where 15 to 20 passengers at the most as I passed thru the core.

Great signage as you drive up N.Phillips crossing N.E. 8th to N.E. 10th, impressed with all the various structures like OU Medical Center construction, the new OU Academic Office Tower, College of Allied Health and the Children's Hospital.

The streetcar could probably serve this area well; hope the area become part of a study for potential streetcar expansion.

Then they shouldn't leave the stop without knowing the next track block is clear. It is stupid to make people stay on a stopped street car for nearly an hour when there is zero danger in letting them out. Especially if it is a frequent event. It isn't at all the same as a normal rail or monorail (are you seriously comparing getting out of the street car to getting out of a monorail? Seriously?). Please provide any logic for how it would be dangerous to let people off outside of a station when stopped for a long period of time.

But if people start missing things because they are stopped in the streetcar, no one will ride it.

Wholeheartedly agree!

Just hopped on and off a packed streetcar. It's a Tuesday! (granted, a nice tuesday during spring break, but still..)

Just hopped on and off a packed streetcar. It's a Tuesday! (granted, a nice tuesday during spring break, but still..)

Same. And it felt like we weren't spending as long at stops no one was wanting to get on or off at. Progress.