http://lmgtfy.com/?q=streetcar+vs+bus

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=streetcar+vs+bus

I should have added "People in OKC who are..." If you could refrain from adding that in to the LOL google search imgtfy
in response that'd be pretty keen.

Where do I go to read the arguments on the advantages of the street car vs. a Bus? I'm sure it has been addressed many times and I would like to read what has been said.

1. Streetcar lines are more permanent (literally and psychologically) they tend to attract lots of economic development near stops. There is a clear investment in any area in which a streetcar has a stop, which is an issue which should be considered as lines are added (southside, northeast, etc.). A criticism is that streetcars are really just a boon for wealthy developers.

2. Many people associate buses with poverty or crime and refuse to take them , but do not have this association with a streetcar. This is, in my opinion, a byproduct of a segregated society, which I believe lacks merit as a regular bus rider myself.

3. Streetcars can be less confusing to new riders if you've ever seen a streetcar map vs. a bus map for an entire city, which can be a little overwhelming. Of course, this also easily overcome.

Functionally, there's not a dramatic difference, but in practice, streetcars have proven successful in areas where buses have not (attracting non-car ridership from those with means). But I really appreciate Ed Shadid and others for bringing up equity issues around buses as the streetcar came online. Both can be part of a more vibrant, non-car ecosystem.

Also passenger capacity, ADA/stroller ease, noise (particularly applicable to late nite), and zero local emissions (potentially zero if wind or hydro power is used).

I should have added "People in OKC who are..." If you could refrain from adding that in to the LOL google search imgtfy
in response that'd be pretty keen.

No offense, but you've cracked plenty of jokes on here. Seemed like a fair opportunity to return the favor.

:-P

It's all good! A great diversion from this kind of stressful stuff!!! (http://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCaseInformation.aspx?db=appellate&number=117619&fbclid=IwAR0xudv4_9KKTkY-E-ML1vachP7-voA3shsS1lyPLrhmve7B-OZeU_4lUl4)


No offense, but you've cracked plenty of jokes on here. Seemed like a fair opportunity to return the favor.

:-P

No offense, but you've cracked plenty of jokes on here. Seemed like a fair opportunity to return the favor.

:-P

The hardest I laughed was when he was running for mayor. Ah, good times.

If this streetcar is successful, I wonder if that might prompt El Reno to rehabilitate and reimagine their streetcar and potentially even expand it. El Reno has a pretty good historic building stock and they could really become a vibrant city if they tried. They already have an operable streetcar, it just doesn’t run outside of special events. They could include daily 20 hour service and consider double tracking or just expanding the route a few blocks and updating the existing system.

The hardest I laughed was when he was running for mayor. Ah, good times.

And now Steve is a City Council candidate!

And now Steve is a City Council candidate!

OK County Election Board ruled him invalid due to residency issues.

How lucky is Greenwell? Automatic 2nd or 3rd term then? At least he is a public transit supporter.

Where do I go to read the arguments on the advantages of the street car vs. a Bus? I'm sure it has been addressed many times and I would like to read what has been said.

Steve, if I may, this is a false choice that was presented by streetcar detractors for rhetorical reasons. The goal was to create contrast and build opposition by dividing the transit community. The fact is we need multiple transit modes and the streetcar was never designed to meet all of our transit demand. It is a last mile solution that makes sense linking disparate areas of our densest urban area. It does not replace buses. It does, however, offer a means to reintroduce mass transit to people who would never otherwise ride a bus. It actually will lead to increased bus ridership, as it will soften people's opposition to it in OKC. Sadly, the vast majority of people in OKC would never ride a bus for any reason. For them, the bus is the equivalent of food stamps; they agree we should have bus service but think it's only for poor people. In order to get mass buy-in for expanding our bus system, getting more bus ridership, and getting the public support required for the RTA (rail commuter transit), we need to get more people riding transit. If their first exposure is the streetcar and they like it, and it links to improved bus service, we can peel some of these folks off and get them on buses. The first week of the streetcar has proved that there are a lot of folks out there willing to give transit a second look. Hopefully the early hiccups will be addressed and the streetcar adoption will not peter out. We have already seen hundreds of millions (some say over a billion) in investment on or near the streetcar route. WE have had major developments in housing and business say the streetcar influenced their decision to invest (such as the new Heartland corporate HQ and multiple residential developments, among other things). Now that the streetcar is complete and people are riding, I would be shocked if we do not see accelerated development and even more density in the urban core. This will only lead to more consistent streetcar usage. We are filling in the donut hole that was this city for more than 30 years. As we repopulate the urban center, we are building demand for improved bus service expanding outward, as well as additional streetcar expansion and other modes, such as the recently announced Bus Rapid Transit system we are receiving federal money to complete. I would challenge you to take a step back when someone tries to make a bus vs. streetcar argument. Ask yourself why they are forcing you to take a side when you can support both, working in tandem. Obviously, building the streetcar has not hurt our bus system because we have seen expanded and improved bus routes, more and better buses in our fleet, the aforementioned BRT announcement, increased bus frequency, and additional service times on several routes, and we have seen all of this in the last few years when we have been building out our streetcar. We will see even more and better bus service. Importantly, we now have permanent transit infrastructure in our central urban area, something cities like Austin do not have (and would love to have). Let's enjoy a toast to what we've built and move on to what else we need.

Just saw opening weekend numbers were 20,104 for the first 3 days. Obviously not what can be expected for the future, but he initial optimism and curiosity is promising. I look forward to trying it out on Friday when I’m in town.

How lucky is Greenwell? Automatic 2nd or 3rd term then? At least he is a public transit supporter.

There is a supreme court hearing on this Jan 3rd. Have a very good chance to be back on the ballot. All
the info is on the site, have a look and decide for yourself. (http://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCaseInformation.aspx?db=appellate&number=117619&fbclid=IwAR0nD8AodS85GbG53rr5eHIzMFbjiQI8Qv_qu9-PhdBDLGTh8sAzHA1_5Gc)

Steve, if I may, this is a false choice that was presented by streetcar detractors for rhetorical reasons. The goal was to create contrast and build opposition by dividing the transit community. The fact is we need multiple transit modes and the streetcar was never designed to meet all of our transit demand. It is a last mile solution that makes sense linking disparate areas of our densest urban area. It does not replace buses. It does, however, offer a means to reintroduce mass transit to people who would never otherwise ride a bus. It actually will lead to increased bus ridership, as it will soften people's opposition to it in OKC. Sadly, the vast majority of people in OKC would never ride a bus for any reason. For them, the bus is the equivalent of food stamps; they agree we should have bus service but think it's only for poor people. In order to get mass buy-in for expanding our bus system, getting more bus ridership, and getting the public support required for the RTA (rail commuter transit), we need to get more people riding transit. If their first exposure is the streetcar and they like it, and it links to improved bus service, we can peel some of these folks off and get them on buses. The first week of the streetcar has proved that there are a lot of folks out there willing to give transit a second look. Hopefully the early hiccups will be addressed and the streetcar adoption will not peter out. We have already seen hundreds of millions (some say over a billion) in investment on or near the streetcar route. WE have had major developments in housing and business say the streetcar influenced their decision to invest (such as the new Heartland corporate HQ and multiple residential developments, among other things). Now that the streetcar is complete and people are riding, I would be shocked if we do not see accelerated development and even more density in the urban core. This will only lead to more consistent streetcar usage. We are filling in the donut hole that was this city for more than 30 years. As we repopulate the urban center, we are building demand for improved bus service expanding outward, as well as additional streetcar expansion and other modes, such as the recently announced Bus Rapid Transit system we are receiving federal money to complete. I would challenge you to take a step back when someone tries to make a bus vs. streetcar argument. Ask yourself why they are forcing you to take a side when you can support both, working in tandem. Obviously, building the streetcar has not hurt our bus system because we have seen expanded and improved bus routes, more and better buses in our fleet, the aforementioned BRT announcement, increased bus frequency, and additional service times on several routes, and we have seen all of this in the last few years when we have been building out our streetcar. We will see even more and better bus service. Importantly, we now have permanent transit infrastructure in our central urban area, something cities like Austin do not have (and would love to have). Let's enjoy a toast to what we've built and move on to what else we need.

:yeahthat:

If this streetcar is successful, I wonder if that might prompt El Reno to rehabilitate and reimagine their streetcar and potentially even expand it. El Reno has a pretty good historic building stock and they could really become a vibrant city if they tried. They already have an operable streetcar, it just doesn’t run outside of special events. They could include daily 20 hour service and consider double tracking or just expanding the route a few blocks and updating the existing system.

I always wish for the streetcar out there to be running. I haven't seen it in years. I love El Reno's town center and think they should really be upping their game being the county seat and all. Being from Yukon, El Reno seems like a ghost town, but with the community college, some O+G companies and the county offices, El Reno should be bustling. I have a wish that if I were to start a company that I would place the HQ in downtown El Reno and jump start the town's revitalization. They really need to be better at capitalizing on their history and the infrastructure already in place.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. No doubt this is all very interesting stuff...



Steve, if I may, this is a false choice that was presented by streetcar detractors for rhetorical reasons. The goal was to create contrast and build opposition by dividing the transit community. The fact is we need multiple transit modes and the streetcar was never designed to meet all of our transit demand. It is a last mile solution that makes sense linking disparate areas of our densest urban area. It does not replace buses. It does, however, offer a means to reintroduce mass transit to people who would never otherwise ride a bus. It actually will lead to increased bus ridership, as it will soften people's opposition to it in OKC. Sadly, the vast majority of people in OKC would never ride a bus for any reason. For them, the bus is the equivalent of food stamps; they agree we should have bus service but think it's only for poor people. In order to get mass buy-in for expanding our bus system, getting more bus ridership, and getting the public support required for the RTA (rail commuter transit), we need to get more people riding transit. If their first exposure is the streetcar and they like it, and it links to improved bus service, we can peel some of these folks off and get them on buses. The first week of the streetcar has proved that there are a lot of folks out there willing to give transit a second look. Hopefully the early hiccups will be addressed and the streetcar adoption will not peter out. We have already seen hundreds of millions (some say over a billion) in investment on or near the streetcar route. WE have had major developments in housing and business say the streetcar influenced their decision to invest (such as the new Heartland corporate HQ and multiple residential developments, among other things). Now that the streetcar is complete and people are riding, I would be shocked if we do not see accelerated development and even more density in the urban core. This will only lead to more consistent streetcar usage. We are filling in the donut hole that was this city for more than 30 years. As we repopulate the urban center, we are building demand for improved bus service expanding outward, as well as additional streetcar expansion and other modes, such as the recently announced Bus Rapid Transit system we are receiving federal money to complete. I would challenge you to take a step back when someone tries to make a bus vs. streetcar argument. Ask yourself why they are forcing you to take a side when you can support both, working in tandem. Obviously, building the streetcar has not hurt our bus system because we have seen expanded and improved bus routes, more and better buses in our fleet, the aforementioned BRT announcement, increased bus frequency, and additional service times on several routes, and we have seen all of this in the last few years when we have been building out our streetcar. We will see even more and better bus service. Importantly, we now have permanent transit infrastructure in our central urban area, something cities like Austin do not have (and would love to have). Let's enjoy a toast to what we've built and move on to what else we need.

I took a ride on Sunday and was impressed. was interesting hearing other people on the car and their perceptions. there were some OKC residents near me who I was surprised did not know what was going on "Over there" which was the new central park. I talked with them about it and they thought it was very cool. Just found it odd they didn't know anything was going on there prior.

I took a ride on Sunday and was impressed. was interesting hearing other people on the car and their perceptions. there were some OKC residents near me who I was surprised did not know what was going on "Over there" which was the new central park. I talked with them about it and they thought it was very cool. Just found it odd they didn't know anything was going on there prior.

There was a viral tweet a few months ago by a guy who thought he broke the story of the Scissortail Park. And a lot of people thought he did too. There is a large group of people who have no idea about anything the city is doing.

that was fun (the viral tweet)

that was fun (the viral tweet)

https://twitter.com/ryanaustindunn/status/1039683926372114438?s=21

There was a viral tweet a few months ago by a guy who thought he broke the story of the Scissortail Park. And a lot of people thought he did too. There is a large group of people who have no idea about anything the city is doing.

I would say at least 75% of the metro population has little to no idea what development is taking place, where and how their tax dollars are spent, or who is spending them.

The ridership preciseness for opening weekend is impressive. I suppose we have an overhead counter @ the vehicle doors?

It will be interesting to see the person count versus fare count as the system evolves.

I am sure people have mentioned it before, but after riding it for the first time this weekend I was pretty surprised at the lack of screens.
I feel like surely, with all the millions of dollars spent, we could have budgeted in 2-3 12" screens per car showing the name of the next couple stops or a moving map or something.
Honestly, seems like more of a wasted opportunity for advertising revenue than anything.

I take public transit everywhere I go and I can’t think of streetcars/commuter trains with TV screens (if that is what you are talking about... or are you just talking about advertising screens). The map and announcement seemed like enough info for me. Do you know of examples of cities that have digital screens in their cars?

I take public transit everywhere I go and I can’t think of streetcars/commuter trains with TV screens (if that is what you are talking about... or are you just talking about advertising screens). The map and announcement seemed like enough info for me. Do you know of examples of cities that have digital screens in their cars?

I think the Denver A-Line has them but I can’t remember what they display. I think just a safety slideshow or special message (event timings, disruptions, etc.)

I take public transit everywhere I go and I can’t think of streetcars/commuter trains with TV screens (if that is what you are talking about... or are you just talking about advertising screens). The map and announcement seemed like enough info for me. Do you know of examples of cities that have digital screens in their cars?
Almost every city I’ve been to that rapid transit rail has multiple digital screens on the train— well the newer trains at least.

Maybe it is more of a European thing due to potential language barriers, I recently traveled in Switzerland and noticed (and heavily utilized) the screens to make sure I was going the right way.
The tram system in Amsterdam had them as well as far as I can recall.
When I travel in American cities I generally just use Uber/Lyft so I don't have a recent native comparison.
Attached a picture of what I am talking about.

15080

I think the Denver A-Line has them but I can’t remember what they display. I think just a safety slideshow or special message (event timings, disruptions, etc.)

they display the next upcoming stop, and then advertisements.

Honestly, seems like more of a wasted opportunity for advertising revenue than anything.

For that, I am grateful. I appreciate not having my visual field cluttered by advertising.

I take public transit everywhere I go and I can’t think of streetcars/commuter trains with TV screens (if that is what you are talking about... or are you just talking about advertising screens). The map and announcement seemed like enough info for me. Do you know of examples of cities that have digital screens in their cars?

I don't know if this counts in the category, but the PATH subway lines connecting NJ and NYC have screens in all the cars (mostly advertising, weather, news, quiz questions, etc.).

I always wish for the streetcar out there to be running. I haven't seen it in years. I love El Reno's town center and think they should really be upping their game being the county seat and all. Being from Yukon, El Reno seems like a ghost town, but with the community college, some O+G companies and the county offices, El Reno should be bustling. I have a wish that if I were to start a company that I would place the HQ in downtown El Reno and jump start the town's revitalization. They really need to be better at capitalizing on their history and the infrastructure already in place.Completely agree. El Reno and Guthrie are two towns close enough to OKC to draw from the momentum and still preserve a small town feel to offer an alternative to big city life. How long that will last is anyone’s guess before sprawl encompasses them and moves even further out, but that’s likely going to be awhile.

In the meantime, if anyone doesn’t know, el Reno has a fairly impressive streetcar line. I don’t believe it’s double tracked. I don’t know what it’d take to bring it back up to par where it can function daily. I don’t even think there are dedicated stop shelters.

IIRC, they have a rail depot where the streetcar maintenance base is stored. Eventually it could serve as a commuter rail terminus with OKC. It could be el Reno’s multimodal hub. They only issue is I don’t think the line is electrified, I can’t remember. It’s been awhile since I’ve been up there.

Maybe a smaller maps for el Reno restoring their transit hub/rail depot, expanding the streetcar maintenance building, finding some older trolleys like the style have(maybe around 4-5), electrifying the route, and restoring the existing tracks could be done for under 50 million. 100 million max. That’s just a guess.

I don’t know the community there, but I get the vibe that isn’t something they would go for. But you never know. Just an idea.

Almost every city I’ve been to that rapid transit rail has multiple digital screens on the train— well the newer trains at least.

Which cities are you referring to?

I am trying to figure out if I'm just not remembering these screens when I've used transit recently. Just off the top of my head, none of transit I've recently used in all of DFW (A-Train, DART, TRE), Chicago, Salt Lake City, Sacramento, Minneapolis, D.C., etc. have these screens.

15080

Thanks for sharing. I almost always take streetcars or commuter rails in whatever U.S. cities I travel to and I can't remember seeing similar screens. Plutonic Panda indicated that lots of cities do have such screens so I'm interested in learning where he's seen them...

So I had a little time to kill yesterday afternoon so I rode the entire southern half of the loop, switching streetcars at the Courthouse/Museum stops. There were two big things that struck me when I rode it around...

First, the "doors are closing, please stand back" message must be manually controlled by the operator. I rode half of the loop, on two vehicles, and I can count on one hand how many times that message played before the doors closed. Same thing with the "hold on, this streetcar is about to move" message, which would have been helpful because the first operator wanted to GO. (I'm surprised how quick those things can accelerate!) In the grand scheme of things, the announcements are pretty minor, but it is noticeable.

Second... This isn't really a problem with the streetcar itself, but I got to witness a dude wearing an Oklahoma Second Amendment Association t-shirt hop on at the Mickey Mantle stop and take a seat - and then I noticed he was carrying a Glock 17 and 6 magazines on his hip. He looked to be livestreaming himself, and was looking around all shady-like... it seemed pretty obvious to me he was intentionally trying to provoke and record a confrontation with transit staff. I'm not gonna lie, I straight up laughed at him because of the absurdity of the situation. I've got zero problem with carrying legally, but unless something changed I'm pretty sure it's not legal to carry on public transit vehicles in Oklahoma - and then I've got some personal opinions on the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of broadcasting that you're carrying a firearm and the utility (or lack thereof) of carrying so many rounds. My laugh aside, his desire for a confrontation was wholly denied and he hopped off at the Ballpark stop without incident. I'm not sure what (if anything) can or should be done in those sorts of circumstances, but that was certainly a notable thing that happened.

Which cities are you referring to?

I am trying to figure out if I'm just not remembering these screens when I've used transit recently. Just off the top of my head, none of transit I've recently used in all of DFW (A-Train, DART, TRE), Chicago, Salt Lake City, Sacramento, Minneapolis, D.C., etc. have these screens.
San Francisco, LA, and I’m forgetting one. I don’t think San Diego has them. Keep in mind, these are only the newer trains that have them.

LA metro will be replacing every red line subway car pretty soon so I’ll report on those when I start seeing them. Even some of the newer buses here have screens. They mainly show the next three stops in sequential order.

I like more technology. I’ve always thought it’d be cool if they had a little blip that represented the location of the car on the system map.

IMO, every little gimmick is nice for mass transit to make it as appealing as possible to people.

Thanks for sharing. I almost always take streetcars or commuter rails in whatever U.S. cities I travel to and I can't remember seeing similar screens. Plutonic Panda indicated that lots of cities do have such screens so I'm interested in learning where he's seen them...


I don’t think I’ve ever seen commuter rail that has them. I don’t remember the last time I’ve ever been on a streetcar. I want to say I have, but it’s been awhile.

Edit: yes I’ve been on New Orleans streetcars and theirs doesn’t have it. But I love their streetcars. One coming every five minutes.

Quick impressions from my first ride:

1) Loved the look and quality of the streetcar and the stops. Looks top-notch.

2) The streetcar seemed to move excruciatingly slow. I saw someone else mentioned this may be the drivers being cautious at first.

3) The timing on the displays was way off. It said the next streetcar was 3 minutes away for 10 minutes, then when it dropped to 2 minutes, the car appeared. I'm sure this can be expected as the system gets running and the kinks worked out, but I hope the streetcar team will keep an eye on this and ensure it's fixed. Reliability is the key to good public transportation.

4) I really hope this thing is successful, but I'm not sure people are going to pay to ride it after the free period ends. I think we need a lot more housing density downtown for this to really take off, so it's a good thing streetcars are a catalyst for more development.

I take public transit everywhere I go and I can’t think of streetcars/commuter trains with TV screens (if that is what you are talking about... or are you just talking about advertising screens). The map and announcement seemed like enough info for me. Do you know of examples of cities that have digital screens in their cars?

Not on car but this is pretty cool in KC:

http://kcstreetcar.org/how-to-ride/arrival-times/

Want to know when the KC Streetcar will arrive at your nearest stop? Want to know if you have enough time to grab a coffee before boarding? Well now you can get live arrival streetcar feeds on your desktop, laptop, tablet, TV and phone for free.

Businesses – this is a great feature for your customers. Property owners – your residents and tenants would love this.

It would seem streetcars would be easier to predict than a bus, but I can watch a public bus roll up on the Google Maps app with high accuracy.

It’s the !#!?*¥< traffic lights that are screwing up the accuracy of the delivery times and automated announcements. I spent a hour in our meeting debating it with city engineers and the “let’s wait and see” people. I’ll be at our Oversight Board tomorrow making the case for the $450,000 permanent fix again.

Philadelphia's new fleet of commuter rail cars has monitors in their cars showing next stop, attraction. It also had safety tips and a few select ads.

It’s the !#!?*¥< traffic lights that are screwing up the accuracy of the delivery times and automated announcements. I spent a hour in our meeting debating it with city engineers and the “let’s wait and see” people. I’ll be at our Oversight Board tomorrow making the case for the $450,000 permanent fix again.

Thank you for all your advocacy and hard work. Fixing that issue alone would go a long way toward improving the system right off the bat.

I posted this to The Lost Ogle, but it seems to be in perpetual moderation que, so I'll post it here as well. If I can't get traction on resolving these matters through the normal channels in which they should be addressed, I may ask posters to help out. It has a been a great pleasure serving our great city., but I am not going to take ownership of potentially flawed project because some people have their heads stuck in the sand. The risks to building even more public transit investments are too great.



A few things-

The streetcar is supposed to be the centerpiece of a true mass transit system that connects Norman, Moore, OKC, Edmond, Midwest City, and Del City together. It’s basically the device that you transfer to when you get to downtown OKC at Santa Fe Station to make your way to your final destination in the broader urban core. We started the project ten years ago and the voters endorsed it along with the other MAPS slate of projects at the time. The theory was and still is to have a follow-up vote that will further expand the mass transit system.

You're right about it currently being slow and a tad glitchy with the automated announcements. And that is because of the (*******) OKC traffic engineers who have had to be dragged into the 21st century realizing that there are now streetcars, pedestrians, bicyclists, and other modes that need movement accommodated in a “smart” way within our urban environments. I think they “get it” now but I am not sure they appreciate the urgency of permanently resolving the matter at EVERY intersection.

A public meeting today directly looked at the issues surrounding the “red light delays” and the problems that they are causing to streetcar reliability, timeliness, speed, and the automated announcements. A modest amount of money spent automating the traffic signals to sense the streetcars would permanently resolve the problem and dramatically improve performance. 21 additional traffic signals need sensors and upgraded communications nodes.

With all of that stated, as of today, we have had nearly 25,000 riders since Friday! That is an AMAZING result in such a short period of time. I personally have never seen the pedestrian activity to such an increased level in downtown. OKC.

There are people who would like some of us who serve to just enjoy the moment and cheer the project on without meaningful introspection. I’ve worked on it for ten years as a volunteer, thousands of hours of meetings, etc. I think it is a HUGE mistake not to immediately resolve the problems aforementioned by posters. We’re in good graces with the public right now. It IS a shiny new toy to be proud of for sure. But for it to function as a viable piece of the planned public transit system, it has to be reliable and timely. I will be aggressively advocating that quickly resolve the problems.

Assuming that MAPS City Staff will respect the majority opinion of its citizen Oversight Committee’s and the City Council will ratify the corrections we are recommending, only then, will I truly celebrate.
One final note, EMBARK is aggressively resolving issues within their means based on the feedback that we have received. We have a slate of items that were quickly identified after the system opened and we are working as a team between MAPS volunteers and City Staff to quickly resolve these issues. The traffic signals, however, will take some additional hutzpa to resolve in the coming months.

Thank you Thank you Thank you for your hard work!!! I imagine most of us on this board will be happy to do some arm twisting to help this project be the best it can be!

Second... This isn't really a problem with the streetcar itself, but I got to witness a dude wearing an Oklahoma Second Amendment Association t-shirt hop on at the Mickey Mantle stop and take a seat - and then I noticed he was carrying a Glock 17 and 6 magazines on his hip. He looked to be livestreaming himself, and was looking around all shady-like... it seemed pretty obvious to me he was intentionally trying to provoke and record a confrontation with transit staff. I'm not gonna lie, I straight up laughed at him because of the absurdity of the situation. I've got zero problem with carrying legally, but unless something changed I'm pretty sure it's not legal to carry on public transit vehicles in Oklahoma - and then I've got some personal opinions on the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of broadcasting that you're carrying a firearm and the utility (or lack thereof) of carrying so many rounds. My laugh aside, his desire for a confrontation was wholly denied and he hopped off at the Ballpark stop without incident. I'm not sure what (if anything) can or should be done in those sorts of circumstances, but that was certainly a notable thing that happened.

The Second Amendment group (I think it is really just 2-3 people) have been going around to state offices with video cameras taking video. They try to get into restricted areas and then challenge security that since its a public building they have a right to be there. They have also been wearing guns in parks and other places essentially baiting law enforcement to take action. They are really trying to incite problems.

THANK YOU, URBAN PIONEER! Your efforts are appreciated.

Yeah I will double down on the thank you's to UP for all your work, and for your dedication to keeping everyone around these parts informed 'from the inside.' THANK YOU!

I do have a question that goes along with the streetcar timing. Is the eventual plan/goal/hope/dream/(?) to one day have these stops fairly scheduled? Where at a given stop I know there's going to be a car there every 7 minutes or something on weekdays and every 12 minutes on weekends and we can get to something like the picture below? Or is the plan to continue on as it's been set up (traffic lights notwithstanding) and you just have to go to a particular stop and check out the display to know when the next car will be there?

Again, thank you so much for all your work and dedication!

15084

I posted this to The Lost Ogle, but it seems to be in perpetual moderation que, so I'll post it here as well. If I can't get traction on resolving these matters through the normal channels in which they should be addressed, I may ask posters to help out. It has a been a great pleasure serving our great city., but I am not going to take ownership of potentially flawed project because some people have their heads stuck in the sand. The risks to building even more public transit investments are too great.



A few things-

The streetcar is supposed to be the centerpiece of a true mass transit system that connects Norman, Moore, OKC, Edmond, Midwest City, and Del City together. It’s basically the device that you transfer to when you get to downtown OKC at Santa Fe Station to make your way to your final destination in the broader urban core. We started the project ten years ago and the voters endorsed it along with the other MAPS slate of projects at the time. The theory was and still is to have a follow-up vote that will further expand the mass transit system.

You're right about it currently being slow and a tad glitchy with the automated announcements. And that is because of the (*******) OKC traffic engineers who have had to be dragged into the 21st century realizing that there are now streetcars, pedestrians, bicyclists, and other modes that need movement accommodated in a “smart” way within our urban environments. I think they “get it” now but I am not sure they appreciate the urgency of permanently resolving the matter at EVERY intersection.

A public meeting today directly looked at the issues surrounding the “red light delays” and the problems that they are causing to streetcar reliability, timeliness, speed, and the automated announcements. A modest amount of money spent automating the traffic signals to sense the streetcars would permanently resolve the problem and dramatically improve performance. 21 additional traffic signals need sensors and upgraded communications nodes.

With all of that stated, as of today, we have had nearly 25,000 riders since Friday! That is an AMAZING result in such a short period of time. I personally have never seen the pedestrian activity to such an increased level in downtown. OKC.

There are people who would like some of us who serve to just enjoy the moment and cheer the project on without meaningful introspection. I’ve worked on it for ten years as a volunteer, thousands of hours of meetings, etc. I think it is a HUGE mistake not to immediately resolve the problems aforementioned by posters. We’re in good graces with the public right now. It IS a shiny new toy to be proud of for sure. But for it to function as a viable piece of the planned public transit system, it has to be reliable and timely. I will be aggressively advocating that quickly resolve the problems.

Assuming that MAPS City Staff will respect the majority opinion of its citizen Oversight Committee’s and the City Council will ratify the corrections we are recommending, only then, will I truly celebrate.
One final note, EMBARK is aggressively resolving issues within their means based on the feedback that we have received. We have a slate of items that were quickly identified after the system opened and we are working as a team between MAPS volunteers and City Staff to quickly resolve these issues. The traffic signals, however, will take some additional hutzpa to resolve in the coming months.

UP - thank you. I agree we should celebrate, but also agree many will never pay for a ticket if they "believe" it will take them 2 hours to go to lunch or that every time they wait at a stop it will take 3 times as long as the number says. The signal priority should have been taken care of, not wait and see. It baffles me! This is killing the momentum of the cars down the track and gives the impression one could walk faster than riding the streetcar.

We have enough people in our city now that are "smart city" gurus, can we utilize them better? Would the engineers allow for more diverse input? I think they probably did during the last 9 years to some extent, but there are strategies and philosophies that could make our city an example for all and I feel like we may not get there for 40 years.

Lastly, the vision that has been set forth for mass transit and bike/walkability across the metro is amazing - we have to get this right.

It’s the !#!?*¥< traffic lights that are screwing up the accuracy of the delivery times and automated announcements. I spent a hour in our meeting debating it with city engineers and the “let’s wait and see” people. I’ll be at our Oversight Board tomorrow making the case for the $450,000 permanent fix again.

Is this a public meeting? Can I show up and advocate?

Is this a public meeting? Can I show up and advocate?

Yes. The MAPS 3 Oversight Board is in one hour in City Hall chambers. I am prepping to head over. Be sure to denote that you want to speak on that issue when "committee reports" comes up as our Chairman Nathaniel Harding will discuss it with the other MAPS 3 Oversight Board Members.

If you can't make it, there will be future meetings. Hopefully, this can be resolved through the process without having to advocate at the City Council and Mayoral level yet.

I was under the impression that signal prioritization was already a thing and the downfall right now is tweaking the setup for certain scenarios and times. That is extremely disappointing if that is not the case. I am not sure about others, but I had no idea that the majority of the route's intersections have no idea where the streetcars are.

I can cut and paste full a report about it in minute detail if people like.

I can cut and paste full a report about it in minute detail if people like.

I personally would find that incredibly interesting!

SUMMARY

September 24, 2018 Automatic Signal Priority Meeting for OKC Streetcar


Between City Staff, EMBARK Staff, Consultants, and Myself
420 Main (4th Floor MAPS Office Conference Room)


There are 39 traffic signals that may potentially affect the efficient operation of OKC Streetcar.

15 Signals will have some sort of degree of priority control that is fully-funded by MAPS.

24 Signals currently do not have funded priority control and are being evaluated.

An additional $600,000 is required to deploy priority control equipment to the remaining 24 locations.

Consultants and OKC Streetcar Staff have identified three signal locations on the Bricktown loop that would potentially, positively affect route times.

An estimated $150,000 has been identified as “next-step” investments and involve outfitting the seven train cars with OPTICOM transmitters and to convert the initial three signal control cabinets with new controllers that can communicate with the system.

OPTICOM is the current method for actuating the signals due to historic reliability precedents with minimal, ongoing traffic management programming requirements from Public Works.

OPTICOM has its limitations however as it is not a “smart” technology. It can cause preemptive traffic management cycling times to occur on demand. However, it does not actively make “smart” judgments about real-time situations at intersections. A camera-type solution may provide better overall results but also would likely require more ongoing programming investment costs to keep such a system reliable.

The goal is 12 – 14-minute intervals between trains.

Additional time extending beyond 12 – 14 minutes is projected to have a detrimental effect on ridership.

Current Consultant estimates based on projected averages have trains estimated to function within reason.

The Bricktown loop is taking longer to travel than projected. Factoring crosswalk signal cycles, Bricktown times can only be marginally improved but probably require the initial three OPTICOM signal investments to keep travel times within reason.



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PERSONAL SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS


Public Works Staff is resistant to a blanket Signal Priority Policy such as I have proposed to the OKC Traffic Commission and attempted to promote through the MAPS process.

The attempt at implementing the policy has continued to elevate awareness about the issue.

There is strong communication occurring between EMBARK and Traffic Control and active monitoring of route times.

OPTICOM is not the ideal long-term solution to improve overall times but it is the immediate technology of choice by Public Works to resolve current obstacles that are delaying efficient streetcar circulation at key signal points.

One of the main obstacles to improving times system-wide is pedestrian crosswalk buttons. If a reliable “camera-type” technology could be obtained that Public Works found acceptable, real-time evaluation of pedestrian activity might be achieved allowing for the smart ongoing evaluation of real-time conditions of crosswalks. Cameras could detect whether the crosswalk had fully cleared of activity and automatically shorten the length of time as necessary thus improving the promptness of green lighting streetcar through-movement. Such a system is being deployed in Kansas City.

The problem with route timeliness and its relationship to signal cycles is incredibly dynamic and varies throughout the day. Additional building development and increased pedestrian activity downtown will ironically exacerbate the timeliness problem. A smarter preemption technology than OPTICOM should be pursued to assist with the new dynamism downtown and its impacts to streetcar movement.

The meeting illustrated that there is an earnest effort to coordinate between city departments to achieve a consultant-based level of service timeliness that the consultant, JACOBS/URS, believes will obtain reasonable streetcar ridership.

The current plan does not attempt to wholly eliminate unnecessary stops at red lights.

I believe it is essential to actively monitor the situation as we enter testing and aggressively evaluate what the ridership experience is like.

I also believe that additional “smart” solutions should be evaluated and a vendor solution selected that provides the necessary reliability and ongoing support that Public Works desires be provided in the immediate future.

Eliminating unnecessary stops at red lights will improve the ridership experience and the sense of expediency that riders throughout the US expect out of streetcar travel.




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NEXT STEPS THAT I RECOMMEND


1. Approve the estimated $150,000 investment out of excess MAPS sales tax collections to improve travel times at three signals identified in Bricktown.

2. Actively test and reevaluate B Line circulation after OPTICOM is deployed on the B Line.

3. Begin testing on D line and evaluate performance.

4. Identify bottlenecks that OPTICOM may temporarily improve.

5. Develop a Request for Proposals through the Consultant for a truly “smart” priority system that uses technology such as cameras and achieves a real-time evaluation of intersection activity. This RFP should include commitments and provisos from potential vendors describing the level of ongoing support that they would be willing to commit to. Recognize that OPTICOM is not a long-term solution and is only a stop-gap measure. Utilize available MAPS funds to jump-start a permanent solution.




Jeff M. Bezdek
MAPS 3 Streetcar Subcommittee Appointee
OKC Streetcar Initiative



Cc. MAPS 3 Subcommittee Members, MAPS 3 Oversight Board, David Todd, Eric Wenger, Dennis Clowers, Doug Smith, Jesse Rush, Jason Ferbrache, James Cooper,

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Submitted to the Committee yesterday.


RECOMMENDATIONS

OKC Streetcar Subcommittee Meeting
December 19, 2018


ADDITIONAL MAPS 3 EXPENDITURE RECOMMENDATIONS
(In Order of Importance)

Compiled by Jeff Bezdek, Mark Gibbs, and Debbie Blackburn, Jill Adler

1. An additional $450,000 is required to deploy priority control equipment (OPTICOM) to the remaining 21 locations identified by JACOBS / URS. I recommend we immediately contract with necessary companies to install OPTICOM on all remaining traffic lights.

2. Convert four-way stop signs to two-way stops-

SW 2ndand Hudson
Joe Carter / Sheridan
NW 11thand Walker

3. Installation of the donated back-up Generator for Maintenance Facility.

4. Procurement of a wheel lathe and modifications made to the maintenance facility.

5. OCS and energizing equipment for OCS and track switches at the 5thStreet Turn-Back for redundancy and TWC light controls.



ADDITIONAL MAPS 3 AND EMBARK RECOMMENDATIONS

1. Replace System Maps with new artwork that utilizes colors depicting routes that do not match the streetcar’s exterior colors.

2. Modify or replace recordings to eliminate “yellow strip” references, emphasize blue stop request buttons, emphasize moving to the ends of the trains to allow more boarding, and announce “transfer to AMTRAK here” at Bricktown and Santa Fe Hub Stops. Better optimize timing on recordings after Signal Priority (OPTICOM) is installed.

3. More stabilizing straps on streetcars per public.

4. Better language on website about disembarking at Dewey and Scissortail “end of line” stops.

5. More access to information regarding potential Park-N’-Ride scenarios with City of OKC Garages.

6. A final public meeting to solicit final opinions about improvements.

I was under the impression that signal prioritization was already a thing and the downfall right now is tweaking the setup for certain scenarios and times. That is extremely disappointing if that is not the case. I am not sure about others, but I had no idea that the majority of the route's intersections have no idea where the streetcars are.

Me too. I guess the signal prioritize that we heard about was just on the "wish list". Hopefully this gets added in the coming months.

This makes the streetcar pretty worthless during major events if its just stuck in traffic.

I've made a point to ride it almost every day to and from the courthouse. As things have sort of normalized, it has gotten faster, but the cars are still stopping at every single stop. I think people will miss stops just once for failing to press the button, but they'll learn eventually. The traffic, as expected has really thinned out. It isn't crowded at all. The trains seem further apart than they were on opening day--now about 10 to 15 minutes apart. In a few years, I hope to see development around the stops.

Oklahoma City has 3 times as much streetcar rail miles as Kansas City. We will have time to evaluate expansion on a 'go' or 'no go' decision with regards to other districts like the OUHSC and the Boathouse District.

We need to work on the kinks in the current route loops before we consider an potential expansion.

OKC did go full throttle with the streetcar, now let's give it an opportunity to develop along the loop and work.

Rode it last night to get a sense of what it was like in the evenings. We went to dinner in Midtown and instead of parking at the restaurant, I intentionally parked in the office garage and took the streetcar the rest of the way.

Holy crap it was crowded. This was about 7 pm. Everybody seemed to be enjoying themselves, it certainly has the "new toy" vibe. There were people of all different types there, from older people in suits to young people with really weird hair. It seemed to move a bit faster than it did the first time I rode it. Maybe the operators are getting more comfortable with it, or drivers are starting to learn to stay out of the way. When we left the restaurant close to 9:00 it was much less crowded, though still a decent number of people were on it.

I think a website showing the arrival times of the cars at different locations would be helpful. People getting ready to walk to a stop could check their phone and see if they have enough time to use the bathroom, or maybe have another drink. This'll particularly be useful during inclement weather when you don't want to stand outside a lot.