Folks who complain why streetcar and not bus, please show me your bus pass.

I'm a regular bus rider and I'm not seeing y'all on the bus.....

I rode the bus and El all the time in Chicago (and Metra to actually get to/from our apt. to work).

Living at NW 164th/May (where we were living when we moved back in 2009 until 2 years ago) isn't feasible for the bus since no routes go that far north. We now live at NW 35th/Venice, so there are routes nearby, but to get to work at about Portland/Reno, I'd have to take route 007 that goes down May (not sure where the stops are, they're not marked on Embark's map) to the transit center and connect to route 009, which goes along Portland. Since it doesn't look like Embark has a route planner, no idea how long it would take, but it would not be inconsequential, I'd expect probably at least 30 minutes and that would be if I got to a bus stop or the transit center right as a bus came along and didn't have to wait.

Or I could get in my car and drive for 8 minutes.

That's why I don't ride the bus.

My recommendation to all is to use TransitApp or MoovIt for your route planning. All of Embark's data goes to them. It will tell you if there's a reasonable chance to use the bus to/from where you're going.

We're solving the last mile problem in advance.

That has to be the vision. We have a downtown circulator. I assume we'll start to see more straight line routes. Much of the right of way from the old trolley system is still owned by the city. It'd be pretty great to see a trolley rolling down Classen again, or down the middle of NW Expressway or Shields.

There is additional signage posted already (at least in Bricktown); it's visible in the picture on the OKC Streetcar's Twitter account that catch22 posted a link to (https://twitter.com/OKCStreetcar/status/1032334306532835328).

Specifically, the sign reads "NO PARKING OVER WHITE LINE".

Oh nice! Thank you.

It will be interestesting to see what the extent of intersection reconstruction will take place at NW 11th / Classen Drive / Dewey. The new streetcar track comes through there about 6” below the existing surface. Lots of manhole covers and drainage structures will need to be evaluated.

My recommendation to all is to use TransitApp or MoovIt for your route planning. All of Embark's data goes to them. It will tell you if there's a reasonable chance to use the bus to/from where you're going.

Embark also shares this data with Google so you can plan your transit journey in Google Maps, including in Navigation mode.

I rode the bus and El all the time in Chicago (and Metra to actually get to/from our apt. to work).

Living at NW 164th/May (where we were living when we moved back in 2009 until 2 years ago) isn't feasible for the bus since no routes go that far north. We now live at NW 35th/Venice, so there are routes nearby, but to get to work at about Portland/Reno, I'd have to take route 007 that goes down May (not sure where the stops are, they're not marked on Embark's map) to the transit center and connect to route 009, which goes along Portland. Since it doesn't look like Embark has a route planner, no idea how long it would take, but it would not be inconsequential, I'd expect probably at least 30 minutes and that would be if I got to a bus stop or the transit center right as a bus came along and didn't have to wait.

Or I could get in my car and drive for 8 minutes.

That's why I don't ride the bus.

Just spitballing on start and end points close to where you mentioned gives this kind of route:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/3508+Venice+Blvd,+Oklahoma+City,+OK+73112/Subway+Restaurants,+3701+W+Reno+Ave,+Oklahoma+City ,+OK+73107/@35.4673811,-97.5874506,13.75z/data=!4m18!4m17!1m5!1m1!1s0x87b21a78e9083afd:0xcbb 6d4bda2664558!2m2!1d-97.5610916!2d35.5056683!1m5!1m1!1s0x87b2104ead9360 55:0x850b8a06edbcecf5!2m2!1d-97.5841158!2d35.4648333!2m3!6e1!7e2!8j1535011200!3 e3

Looks like a little over an hour by bus, as there's no direct bus route to take you there.

Folks who complain why streetcar and not bus, please show me your bus pass.

I'm a regular bus rider and I'm not seeing y'all on the bus.

I'm not intending to belittle anyone on this thread. I'm serious. We need y'all riding the bus. For transit at large to improve in Oklahoma City the thing we need more than ANYTHING else... is ridership. And public meeting attendance. The only people I see on the bus and in Embark public meetings (for the most part) is the folks that don't have much of a choice. Until we have critical mass of folks that have a choice and CHOOSE transit/bus, we're not going to get where we need to go. Even with the streetcar. It is not a magic bullet. Ridership at large on the entire transit system is the magic bullet. If the buses are full, the conversation to add buses will happen.

And you can gripe all you want about how the current system is not adequate. It might not be if you're outside the core, but that's something else that won't get better without ridership. The current system for those in the core is not the most terrible thing. It can be made to work. If you're serious about it. Which most aren't. Please, put your money where your mouth is, and then let the folks at Embark know what's working and what's not, ad nauseum. I'm quite certain there are a number of folks there that are tired of hearing from me. But I ride, and I'm vocal, and we need MORE of that in order for things to get better.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm tired of hearing non-bus riders gripe about why not buses or why not more buses. It's because y'all aren't riding.


You make great points and it would be great if more rode the bus. Maybe if they had used the tram money on bus system then riders increase?

My issue is the tram will be traffic jammed after Thunder games and 3 times each work day for the morning/lunch/afterwork rush. Its a very limited route which cannot be changed if its wrong. I hope it works but if people don’t ride the bus what makes the tram any different ridership wise? It will have the newness riders but once it wears off you have limited audience.

So in my world had we spent $150,000,000 on bus system just imagine the reach it would have. And could adjust routes based on any factor like road work or better stops. For that money the bus system would work but now we are splitting the money into 2 systems that will each require money. And because tram is newer the bus system gets less money/focus is my guess.

I want the tram to work but feel the bus system failed due to not putting money and resources into it. And in my opinion the tram project should have been a bus project. And then once you get bus working it feeds bricktown and the tram would have been a next step afterwards.

My other fear is Maps itself. Its transformed this city and been a huge success. But if tram fails that would be a huge blow to get future projects passed. If people feel their money was spent unwisely they will stop supportimg Maps type projects.

I hope I’m wrong and tram works but I work close to downtown and no tram and when I drive over for lunch the roads are packed with cars. No bus. And those roads are same path as tram, so as much as I/others sit in traffic jam so will tram. Had we increased buses to my area that would be a better option. And $150,000,000 would have done that.

I hope I’m wrong we all need tram to work for the next projects down the road. Someday we will be asked to help fund a new basketball arena too. Not sure blhow many years it will be but we’ll need support when that day comes. A failed tram will hamper those type asks in the future, so we all need tram to work.

Where exactly do you think it will be held up in traffic? Broadway backs up but usually only southbound, the streetcar runs north on Broadway. I’ve never once seen a traffic jam on 11th or 10th that would cripple the Streetcar. Robinson southbound is a fairly calm street, especially north of Sheridan. Sheridan and Reno are the only two streets on the line that ever get congested. I imagine that some signal timing changes in addition to the signal prioritization will minimize any delays.

Finally, it’s a streetcar not a tram.

Just one point for people who mentioned the bus doesn't run where they live -- and I ask this sincerely -- have you considered moving? I have a lot of conversations with friends who talk to me like they're stuck wherever they live.... as if someone forced for them to live there. I'm not telling others what to do, but there are more walkable, bikeable, busable options available. It's a lifestyle , environmental, economic, and personal choice, but it is no doubt a choice. Again, if you have a good reason for living where you live, I understand that. I'm just curious.

Just one point for people who mentioned the bus doesn't run where they live -- and I ask this sincerely -- have you considered moving? I have a lot of conversations with friends who talk to me like they're stuck wherever they live.... as if someone forced for them to live there. I'm not telling others what to do, but there are more walkable, bikeable, busable options available. It's a lifestyle , environmental, economic, and personal choice, but it is no doubt a choice. Again, if you have a good reason for living where you live, I understand that. I'm just curious.

Your idea requires 2 moves possibly. Move from home and move from work since buses may not go to either. Only so many can move into small area lest it gets overcrowded and folks who like it now move out to get away. Plus most people like where they live.

I think its a stretch to ask people to move. The bigger ask is a city working to move people from outer areas to downtown work spaces. We are the last city to “get big” and face these problems and had chances to see how other cities solved problems. Spending time in other cities to see what works and doesn’t. The tram is very shortsighted and only covers a small area. A majority of our population will never use it but they will wonder why buses or other traspo methods are not discussed and improved more. The tram caters to a small segment of city/metro. And from what I read the new Birds work as good or better for citizens. Tram will be one of those “cool” things for tourists though.

Downtown living is not for all people. In fact its only less than 10%. But with tram they are spending a large portion of transpo budget (not counting roads) in relation to population. Its cool for a segment of folks to live downtown but that is an exception. Even huge cities like LA are spread out.

Just my opinion I get what you are saying but its not reality. Buses increased and efficient with parking areas would be a start. Imagine buses going up and down Classen and NW Highway every 10 minutes. A person could get downtown in a jiffy if the tram money had been out into buses. Same for other routes. Thats my beef the $150,000,000 put into buses would have transformed our transportation needs. But what we got was a small route in a small area of our metro that is going to need huge future miney to expand and sustain. Meaning no new money for buses. And how many decades and billions before it gets out to NW Highway? Buses could have been there within a few months.

Last thought, even if mega people moved downtown the growth of people would fill in the outer areas. So we will never get away from spread we nust need to figure out hiw to soend money wisely. And for the most part I think we have. Well ess centers are going gangbusters. Other Maps were city changing. My one and only worry is the tram money should have been spent on massive buses/system. I’ve been to many overseas cities like Hong Kong and Paris. Lived in many cities in US. A great bus system really works well for a city. Then you can work on trams and trains and things like that to fill in blanks as needed. Buses should have come first and would have received citywide support too. My fear is the trams do not have as much support as is stated once you get away from downtown Bricktown. Even the medical district is not served by tram and its a huge huge workforce. Buses are non accurate and not enough.

I got a bit wordy so forgive my long reply. I love living here too so take this constructively. I want us to excel in all our endevours. Just don’t want trams to be the reason people stop supporting future Maps. And if it fails that will happen.

the bus system is really in a chicken and egg scenario. but most of us realize that the chicken came first since the egg is its reproduction.

IMO, OKC has been using the 'egg' as the excuse here, that people need to move into a dense area in order for bus service to begin. I don't totally disagree BUT I think there are things the city can do to encourage demand in existing, ignored, already dense enough areas. I'll outline my suggestions below:

1) Neighborhood engagement: The city needs to identify existing dense clusters (and OKC does have them outside of the core) and conduct surveys and meetings on how people use/would use transit. This could be a combination of after work town hall sessions, mailers, internet, and social media - get the data on where people work, how many, and what options they currently use. Once you have this data, you can then prioritize transit locations to serve the most pax and get them to their destinations or an easy transfer if the route system is employed (highly recommended).

2) Implement MASS TRANSIT. OKC is currently too hyper-focused on local and destination transit (which tends to attract lower incomes in the inner city btw) that we are missing the bulk of transit likely users, those in and near the suburbs who would commute in. If we complete step 1, identification - then we should implement Park N Ride, Transit Centers, and Commuter points where a MASS of people in a density cluster could walk/park/eventually local bus to said commuter point and the mass transit aka commuter bus bring them into the city. If enough of the masses needs to go to a suburb and/or destination then there could be commuter routes serving those spots. To me, this is what is missing the most in OKC, the 1st and 2nd miles of transit for the bulk of the population of the metro area. Solve this and there is an instant boost in ridership far beyond what's being obtained currently with the inner city/destination focus.

3) More "local" bus options: As steps 1 and 2 mature, we need to get more local buses serving those commuter points. These would be routes local to that neighborhood that would not go downtown but instead would feed the commuter point and riders would transfer to downtown or popular destination by the commuter bus. The local bus is the 1st mile but I think in a city like OKC it needs to be implemented after step 2 above (the 2nd mile) since our density clusters are scattered and end destinations are likely just as scattered.

I imagine just completing these 3 steps would go a very long way to inviting transit usage for MOST of the posters in this thread who've mentioned they don't have a bus that connects to Embark or one that goes to their job on Broadway/Britton. The surveys would identify these riders and this destination, implementing the route would encourage ridership (why not, right?) which would feed the overall system.

Now, IMO we are doing the exact same thing with the streetcar. Step 1 has been completed (sort of); the destinations/venues were identified and the route was selected based on efficient usage of track. Step 2 is being completed with the trains being bought and the track being laid. Step 3 moreso depends on other modes (walking, biking, scooter, local bus, eventual light rail, eventual commuter bus, eventual commuter rail, etc) because the streetcar is the last mile for most journeys. The first mile is what we need to work on next WHILE we expand the streetcar to create an urban network, the bus system and streetcar are not competitors - we just need the same level of analytics and political involvement in the bus system that we've had with the streetcar to make the transit system as a whole what most of us really want - and there wouldn't need to be much moving to 'existing' transit stops.

catch, in most parts of the world streetcars are known as trams. :)

'Streetcar' is a North American thing.

catch, in most parts of the world streetcars are known as trams. :)

'Streetcar' is a North American thing.

True. But this thing has been in the works for 10 years under the name Streetcar and the only people calling it teams and trolleys are the detractors.

catch, in most parts of the world streetcars are known as trams. :)

'Streetcar' is a North American thing.

Most of my friends from Austria and eastern bloc countries with these call the newer models streetcars where as the older models still in operation are called trams, never thought to ask why the differentiate between the two as they serve the same purpose.

You make great points and it would be great if more rode the bus. Maybe if they had used the tram money on bus system then riders increase?

My issue is the tram will be traffic jammed after Thunder games and 3 times each work day for the morning/lunch/afterwork rush. Its a very limited route which cannot be changed if its wrong. I hope it works but if people don’t ride the bus what makes the tram any different ridership wise? It will have the newness riders but once it wears off you have limited audience.

So in my world had we spent $150,000,000 on bus system just imagine the reach it would have. And could adjust routes based on any factor like road work or better stops. For that money the bus system would work but now we are splitting the money into 2 systems that will each require money. And because tram is newer the bus system gets less money/focus is my guess.

I want the tram to work but feel the bus system failed due to not putting money and resources into it. And in my opinion the tram project should have been a bus project. And then once you get bus working it feeds bricktown and the tram would have been a next step afterwards.

My other fear is Maps itself. Its transformed this city and been a huge success. But if tram fails that would be a huge blow to get future projects passed. If people feel their money was spent unwisely they will stop supportimg Maps type projects.

I hope I’m wrong and tram works but I work close to downtown and no tram and when I drive over for lunch the roads are packed with cars. No bus. And those roads are same path as tram, so as much as I/others sit in traffic jam so will tram. Had we increased buses to my area that would be a better option. And $150,000,000 would have done that.

I hope I’m wrong we all need tram to work for the next projects down the road. Someday we will be asked to help fund a new basketball arena too. Not sure blhow many years it will be but we’ll need support when that day comes. A failed tram will hamper those type asks in the future, so we all need tram to work.

Don't buses get caught up in traffic too? The streetcar acts no differently than buses with the exception that one knows exactly where the streetcar is going to go.

True. But this thing has been in the works for 10 years under the name Streetcar and the only people calling it teams and trolleys are the detractors.

Or the ignorant, which isn't an insult or a bad thing (unless you stay willfully ignorant), because everybody's ignorant about some things in some aspect, and it can be fixed by education. :)

Just one point for people who mentioned the bus doesn't run where they live -- and I ask this sincerely -- have you considered moving? I have a lot of conversations with friends who talk to me like they're stuck wherever they live.... as if someone forced for them to live there. I'm not telling others what to do, but there are more walkable, bikeable, busable options available. It's a lifestyle , environmental, economic, and personal choice, but it is no doubt a choice. Again, if you have a good reason for living where you live, I understand that. I'm just curious.

My wife and I have been looking around to moving, but we can never find the right deal. We are in a great financial position in our current house, so it is tough to find something where we won't be taking a few steps backwards. Also, the bus that runs by my work is along a loop and does not operate in both ways, meaning that I would either have to choose to live where my commute to work is short, but my commute home is longer or vice versa...

Or the ignorant, which isn't an insult or a bad thing (unless you stay willfully ignorant), because everybody's ignorant about some things in some aspect, and it can be fixed by education. :)

If you're going out of your way to be kind you can call it "uninformed." :D

I'm not sure why the moderators changed the title I originally gave this thread. If it is going to be changed, can we change it to OKC Streetcar for search engine purposes? Thanks.

This week was a big week for OKC Streetcar. We approved in committee spending an additional $4million out of excess collections to complete the project correctly and install the 5th street trackage.

In addition, for the folks concerned about traffic in the posts above, $750k for updating the traffic signal controllers and the city's overall traffic management software. We have encountered congestion in our testing on the B line and are aggressively implementing AI and automation where it is needed.

The 5th street track just connects Robinson track to Broadway track? Or are we talking going beyond there to say Deep Deuce?

5th street track? I am intrigued. Looking around I was able to find the meeting minutes for Wednesday: https://agenda.okc.gov/sirepub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=5293&doctype=AGENDA


WHEREAS, Subsequent to approval of Amendment No. 3, additional services are
required related to full design of the NW 5th Street turnback (trackwork, OCS and other electrical
scope of work, paving, striping, etc. along with a waterline relocation), contract administration
and as-built drawings and an increase in funding of Additional Services for pylon and SCADA
System revisions requested by EMBARK, traffic signal controller and software upgrades, and
State Safety Oversight (SSO) Audit Support as needed; and


Item No. 9, NW 5th Street Turnback, $139,594.14:
To increase flexibility for streetcar operations, additional rails,
overhead catenary lines and associated infrastructure must be
constructed to connect Broadway Avenue and Robinson Avenue at
NW 5th Street. This item pays for the labor and material to construct
the NW 5th Street turnback.

So, a connection between Broadway and Robinson along 5th street.

Nice. Doing that gives you the option to have a midtown loop, in addition to the bricktown loop and the full system loop.

Nice. Doing that gives you the option to have a midtown loop, in addition to the bricktown loop and the full system loop.

Not really, I's more of a bypass of midtown in case the track is blocked in that portion. This will also be of use connecting the system to HSC

Nice. Doing that gives you the option to have a midtown loop, in addition to the bricktown loop and the full system loop.

It’s only northbound to southbound, there is no curve for southbound to northbound. But it could be a good place to bypass midtown if there’s an accident blocking the tracks or unforeseen construction shutting down the line in Midtown.

double post

Ah, sorry, didn't look at the directions

To those exclaiming that this money could have been better spent on buses, that assumes that the goal of this aspect of MAPS was an overall better transit system and that's not what this project is. Most of these MAPS projects have one goal in mind--to enhance the city's core. The theory has been that if downtown is a great place to be, we'll attract quality jobs to the city which otherwise wouldn't be here, and for the most part, the theory has been spot-on. This trolley is probably never going to turn a profit. Landowners with investments adjacent to the rail lines are going to turn massive profits, however.

The point that we need ridership and that people should be making sacrifices to participate in public transit puts the cart before the horse. If the demand isn't there, why build?

To those exclaiming that this money could have been better spent on buses, that assumes that the goal of this aspect of MAPS was an overall better transit system and that's not what this project is. Most of these MAPS projects have one goal in mind--to enhance the city's core. The theory has been that if downtown is a great place to be, we'll attract quality jobs to the city which otherwise wouldn't be here, and for the most part, the theory has been spot-on. This trolley is probably never going to turn a profit. Landowners with investments adjacent to the rail lines are going to turn massive profits, however.

The point that we need ridership and that people should be making sacrifices to participate in public transit puts the cart before the horse. If the demand isn't there, why build?

Why does transit have to be the only government function that has to “turn a profit”? How profitable are any sidewalks or roads? Does the city’s action center turn a profit?

Government services including transit are designed to enhance quality of life and are paid for by ALL citizens; whether or not you use it. Fares exist to supplement operating costs and deter vagrants from using them exclusively for sleeping.

While the streetcar may not generate an operating profit, I guarantee you it will return a massive ROI for the city in many direct and indirect ways.

You misunderstood me if you thought I was in any way critical of the fact that these things aren't profitable. We're still waiting for that turnpike system to make a profit, after all.

You misunderstood me if you thought I was in any way critical of the fact that these things aren't profitable. We're still waiting for that turnpike system to make a profit, after all.

I thought we were on the same page but still wanted to make the point for others.

Both of you made excellent points. :D

No transit system pays for itself via the fare box. There should not be an expectation for that to be the case.

Yep. As pointed out above, the farebox collections on billions and billions of dollars in street and highway construction targeted specifically at cars is literally zero. The measure of the effectiveness is the economic impact it drives. If it creates new development, new retail sales receipts, new jobs, or simply gets people TO their jobs (some of whom may have struggled otherwise and had less opportunity for earnings potential, education and productivity) it is doing its job. THAT is the measure of transportation infrastructure.

As an addendum to that post, by the way, is that there is also a NEGATIVE impact that any or all forms of transit can have, also. And this is almost never charged against automobiles in public conversations. The streetcar is going to cost what...$130 million? And it will also have some ongoing operational expense, of course. What other costs are associated with it?

But bad land use policy and the building of sprawl causes geometric increases in taxpayer burden including upkeep, constant widening to keep up with demand, new infrastructure demands like drainage, signalization, policing, stretched services like fire, trash, schools, diminished land values near highway frontages, and we can go on and on and on. It also includes the penalty of not being in a position to fund adequate alternative transit for citizens.

I'm not at all saying CARS are bad; I most certainly disagree with this notion. But selling out to them 100% IS bad.

All transit modes should get equitable consideration in the budgetary process.

Equitable does not mean equal. But that scale should shift as we lean more into non-car modes in the coming years.

The trouble is that re cars, we sold out to them, literally a long time ago when the city allowed shell corporations owned by auto companies to buy up and scrap the interurban. We've put all of our eggs in one basket and now our neighborhoods and businesses are built around long, windy streets and big parking lots. Moving to those other modes of transit, if we took away from our streets, which you'd have to agree are not the best streets, and we invested in light rail, for example, how could light rail adequately serve someplace like NW OKC? The structure of our city is automobile based. Now you might see some different things tried in the urban core, but things like commuter rail and light rail in a city of this size seem a bit outlandish.

I don't ride the bus, but I don't imagine our existing lines are having capacity issues.

Definitely no capacity issues on the bus.

Commuter rail is coming in the next 10 years. Per ACOG 50% of the working population of Cleveland county commutes to Oklahoma county daily for work. Options like commuter rail potentially help offset some of the traffic anticipated in the next 20 years.

Paddyshack asked:

“Don't buses get caught up in traffic too? The streetcar acts no differently than buses with the exception that one knows exactly where the streetcar is going to go.”

Ok, my thoughts are if you have a great external ( to downtown) bus system then imagine all those cars not cluttering downtown so the busez could get around. Buses would reduce not increase.

Now on the flip side with a very limited SC system and bad bus system all these outlying folks are driving downtown area to work and driving to lunch and driving home. So they will compete with SC not help it.

To those exclaiming that this money could have been better spent on buses, that assumes that the goal of this aspect of MAPS was an overall better transit system and that's not what this project is. Most of these MAPS projects have one goal in mind--to enhance the city's core. The theory has been that if downtown is a great place to be, we'll attract quality jobs to the city which otherwise wouldn't be here, and for the most part, the theory has been spot-on. This trolley is probably never going to turn a profit. Landowners with investments adjacent to the rail lines are going to turn massive profits, however.

The point that we need ridership and that people should be making sacrifices to participate in public transit puts the cart before the horse. If the demand isn't there, why build?

I agree the Maps was groundbreaking for OKC. But things evolve if one wants to keep ip support. I have many friends in my suburb who have nothing good to say about the SC and feel their voice is left out

Here is something to consider. The original premise of SC Maps was brilliant and its transformed our city. But it started in what 93? So about 25 years ago. The whole city which includes suburban folk supported it wholeheartedly.

But fast forward 25 years and maybe its time to think other than just bricktown. The suburban folk have subsidised downtown for 25 years and been positive about it. But now they want more of the “cut” coming outward. You see that with the wellness building and the road funding. So at this 25th year of Maps they see a massive expense that still only helps a one square mile of downtown. And a lot of them are going to start drawing the line at future votes.

Thus my contention is you have to “engage” the majority of people who vote and pay for the downtown upgrades with things that help them too. We did save downtown and now need to start looming at quality of life for all citizens. So imo had we used a Maps for buses you engage all city folk which keeps momentum. As you get that working now you reduced downtown traffic from efficient buses and can add these extras like SC and would likely enjoin the bus voters.

I think we did this backwards and by doing it in wrong order we left out 90% of population who will never use SC. There is a limit on what people will approve to spend. Buses were more of a need than SC.

But for all our sake I hope and want it to work. We will need support in future for other projects. I hope we didn’t overuse Maps. This will be a great thread to revisit in 2-3 years.

Thanks for taking time to read and please forgive my typos on phone.

^^^ I'll just say a couple of quick things...

First of all, suburbs have *not* been subsidizing downtown for 25 years via MAPS unless they spend money in OKC, so if they don't want to pay for MAPS projects, they can purchase things in their own suburbs (and MAPS benefits are spread out all over the city, not just downtown).

Second, the streetcar benefits waaaaaay more than "one square mile of downtown". Do some research on where the lines go, where they'll likely be extended to, and check out how much development is/will be happening along the lines.

I agree the Maps was groundbreaking for OKC. But things evolve if one wants to keep ip support. I have many friends in my suburb who have nothing good to say about the SC and feel their voice is left out

Here is something to consider. The original premise of SC Maps was brilliant and its transformed our city. But it started in what 93? So about 25 years ago. The whole city which includes suburban folk supported it wholeheartedly.

But fast forward 25 years and maybe its time to think other than just bricktown. The suburban folk have subsidised downtown for 25 years and been positive about it. But now they want more of the “cut” coming outward. You see that with the wellness building and the road funding. So at this 25th year of Maps they see a massive expense that still only helps a one square mile of downtown. And a lot of them are going to start drawing the line at future votes.

Thus my contention is you have to “engage” the majority of people who vote and pay for the downtown upgrades with things that help them too. We did save downtown and now need to start looming at quality of life for all citizens. So imo had we used a Maps for buses you engage all city folk which keeps momentum. As you get that working now you reduced downtown traffic from efficient buses and can add these extras like SC and would likely enjoin the bus voters.

I think we did this backwards and by doing it in wrong order we left out 90% of population who will never use SC. There is a limit on what people will approve to spend. Buses were more of a need than SC.

But for all our sake I hope and want it to work. We will need support in future for other projects. I hope we didn’t overuse Maps. This will be a great thread to revisit in 2-3 years.

Thanks for taking time to read and please forgive my typos on phone.

Well, if your friends live in Oklahoma City, then they got the chance to vote on MAPS. And they lost.

If your friends live in Moore, Midwest City, Edmond, Norman, etc, then it's really not any of their business what OKC does with its money.

This whole “the suburbs have been subsidizing downtown for _____ years” business is malarkey; I’m sorry. Which square mile of the 622 miles of Oklahoma City are you talking about? In around 2014 or 2015 (sorry, I don’t recall which) the City of OKC on the request of Downtown OKC Inc (now the Downtown OKC Partnership) pulled a sales tax report on the roughly square mile that compromises Bricktown. During the preceding year, that square mile produced roughly FIVE PERCENT of the entire city’s sales tax. Meaning one dollar in 20 of the budget for the police protection, fire protection, library, road, water and whatever other services we ALL enjoy was paid for by a single square mile OF SIX HUNDRED TWENTY TWO.

Mind you, this was before Midtown, Film Row, West Village, Automobile Alley and on and on had any appreciable entertainment or retail. Today, all of those areas together probably account for 2-3 times that percentage.

Do those areas attract dollars from OKC’s subrurban City limits? Sure they do. Of course, those people could just as easily be going to Edmond or Norman or Dallas or wherever to spend their entertainment dollars. But they don’t. Because downtown OKC (and the rapidly-regenerating core like Uptown, Paseo and Plaza) holds their attention. It ALSO, by the way, attracts dollars FROM Edmond. And Mustang. and Yukon. And Norman. And Dallas. And Amarillo. And Fort Smith. And Los Angeles. And London. And Stuttgart. And Trondheim. And Sydney. And Taipei. How do I know this? Because I’ve talked to people from all of those places in the past 30 days, and I talk to a FRACTION of the people my employees talk to. Those people pay for your police, and your fire protection, and your library, and your road resurfacing. And they’re not going to visit your neighborhood no matter how nice the park is there.

By the way, there is a HUGE concentration of jobs within 2 miles of downtown. And part of the reason they are there is because of amenities.

Also, I live very close to downtown, and work IN downtown. When I shower (or whatever) it goes down 100 year old pipes. They were paid for by my grandfather’s grandfather. When someone builds a housing addition in BFE in the middle of a field, guess who pays for THOSE city sewer lines? ME. The guy who shops at the Homeland at 18th and Classen and eats lunch at the Midtown Garage, and who NEVER shops at the Crest in Edmond or eats at the Dairy Queen in Moore.

Should OKC be spending money in the suburbs? Neighborhoods I mean? The other 620 or so square miles? Yes, OF COURSE it should. Just tell me where. Tell me where you can spend $100 million (about a year of a penny tax collection for the whole city) and make the same type of impact. One mile of street construction runs about $10 million these days, so a year’s worth of MAPS tax will build ten miles of new section line roads. Where are you going to put those ten miles? That’s one years’ worth. Of our money. Yours (when you shop in the OKC city limits) mine, and the couple from Taipei.

Scissortail Park is about $130 million, so a year and four months’ worth. Want one in your neighborhood? Great. Now...what about the 98% of OKC residents who don’t live within 2 miles of you? What do they get? Bupkus? Well, they’re on the phone and they’re PISSED.

Look, I’m for finding as many ways as possible to improve ALL of OKC. And in some cases, this DEFINITELY means finding ways to make our suburbs work better through suburban retrofit, making parts of them more walkable, more dense, better generators of sales tax, and in some cases - sorry to say - less parasitic and less of a drain on our community resources.

But this notion that the suburbs are “subsidizing” downtown? Please. It’s horse puckey. Do the other 615 miles COMBINED generate more tax than the 6-7 that comprise downtown proper and the immediate neighborhoods? Of course. But show me another 6-7 square miles which generate anywhere near the same amount of tax. I’ll wait right here.

I’d hate to see how much money Urbanized spends on microphones as much as he tends to drop them.

This whole “the suburbs have been subsidizing downtown for _____ years” business is malarkey; I’m sorry. Which square mile of the 622 miles of Oklahoma City are you talking about? In around 2014 or 2015 (sorry, I don’t recall which) the City of OKC on the request of Downtown OKC Inc (now the Downtown OKC Partnership) pulled a sales tax report on the roughly square mile that compromises Bricktown. During the preceding year, that square mile produced roughly FIVE PERCENT of the entire city’s sales tax. Meaning one dollar in 20 of the budget for the police protection, fire protection, library, road, water and whatever other services we ALL enjoy was paid for by a single square mile OF SIX HUNDRED TWENTY TWO.

Mind you, this was before Midtown, Film Row, West Village, Automobile Alley and on and on had any appreciable entertainment or retail. Today, all of those areas together probably account for 2-3 times that percentage.

Do those areas attract dollars from OKC’s subrurban City limits? Sure they do. Of course, those people could just as easily be going to Edmond or Norman or Dallas or wherever to spend their entertainment dollars. But they don’t. Because downtown OKC (and the rapidly-regenerating core like Uptown, Paseo and Plaza) holds their attention. It ALSO, by the way, attracts dollars FROM Edmond. And Mustang. and Yukon. And Norman. And Dallas. And Amarillo. And Fort Smith. And Los Angeles. And London. And Stuttgart. And Trondheim. And Sydney. And Taipei. How do I know this? Because I’ve talked to people from all of those places in the past 30 days, and I talk to a FRACTION of the people my employees talk to. Those people pay for your police, and your fire protection, and your library, and your road resurfacing. And they’re not going to visit your neighborhood no matter how nice the park is there.

By the way, there is a HUGE concentration of jobs within 2 miles of downtown. And part of the reason they are there is because of amenities.

Also, I live very close to downtown, and work IN downtown. When I shower (or whatever) it goes down 100 year old pipes. They were paid for by my grandfather’s grandfather. When someone builds a housing addition in BFE in the middle of a field, guess who pays for THOSE city sewer lines? ME. The guy who shops at the Homeland at 18th and Classen and eats lunch at the Midtown Garage, and who NEVER shops at the Crest in Edmond or eats at the Dairy Queen in Moore.

Should OKC be spending money in the suburbs? Neighborhoods I mean? The other 620 or so square miles? Yes, OF COURSE it should. Just tell me where. Tell me where you can spend $100 million (about a year of a penny tax collection for the whole city) and make the same type of impact. One mile of street construction runs about $10 million these days, so a year’s worth of MAPS tax will build ten miles of new section line roads. Where are you going to put those ten miles? That’s one years’ worth. Of our money. Yours (when you shop in the OKC city limits) mine, and the couple from Taipei.

Scissortail Park is about $130 million, so a year and four months’ worth. Want one in your neighborhood? Great. Now...what about the 98% of OKC residents who don’t live within 2 miles of you? What do they get? Bupkus? Well, they’re on the phone and they’re PISSED.

Look, I’m for finding as many ways as possible to improve ALL of OKC. And in some cases, this DEFINITELY means finding ways to make our suburbs work better through suburban retrofit, making parts of them more walkable, more dense, better generators of sales tax, and in some cases - sorry to say - less parasitic and less of a drain on our community resources.

But this notion that the suburbs are “subsidizing” downtown? Please. It’s horse puckey. Do the other 615 miles COMBINED generate more tax than the 6-7 that comprise downtown proper and the immediate neighborhoods? Of course. But show me another 6-7 square miles which generate anywhere near the same amount of tax. I’ll wait right here.

The poimt you are missing is a majority of the OKC suburbs are not as educated on the downtown topics as you are. You live there so its on your radar. They don’t. What is lost is the impression of money being spent downtown is starting to change where folks want to spend in future. I too work downtown and live in burbs. I love what Maps has done. But now havimg spent 25 years focused on downtown we will need to start thinking about the other 95% of voters as we move forward. We need to keep their confidence for future asks.

We all know within 15 years the Peake discussion will start, if we need to fund a new one. So we need to include the 95% in how we spend money because we will have a lot more asks.

Like I’ve said we have transformed downtown and its been a huge hit. We have to make sure we include in a positive way everyone in the city to continue getting things passed. That newish complex with Topgolf is showing we are starting to grow other areas besides downtown. The Edmomds will start driving there vs driving downtown because we have not addressed things like buses instead we created the SC. So as those folks can go to Topgolf complex for their entertainmemt you lose a segment of local downtown spend. Thus why I mentioned needing to have spent money getting people downtown from out of downtown. Looking at other new growth of entertainmemt alomg the 235 corridor (north of 44) you can start to see folks can drive closer for fun.

This does not make downtown go downhill, not at all. But as you start having more “outlying” venues the dollars get spread around. Had we spent SC money on buses you set up methods to get folks downtown.

And again, at next vote ots what people “think” regardless if they are right or not. Just because you live downtown does not mean burbs think and know what you do. Maps 3 was passex at 54% in 2009, 9 years ago. Look at the changes since then. One extreme example is Paycom out on Memorial and Rockwell/Council. They have 3,000 employees and are growing like bonkers. So around 7,500 with family members. Most will live in that area. Do you think a majority of them would vote for improved roads or more SC to expand in downtown? That is just one example of how we have changed. They and everyone can see the great changes downtown even the convention center/park/hotel. In their world money has been spemt dkwntown now they will want money in their areas. Right or wromg those are the type voters will be be needed for “Maps 4”.

Its important to note I love what we did downtown. But we have to look at how we are changing and adding other entertainment areas and people.

No mic drop for me all I want is to make sure we continue the positive momentem our fair city has garnered over the past 25 years. Of the tons of Maps projects in my opinon every single one has been a homerun expect the SC. I can see there are posters embedded on this topic and thats fine. I am trying to point out things downtowners don’t see that burbers like me do. A huge majority of suburban citizens (OKC) do not agree with the street car. It does not make us bad citizens it means the city has hurdles to overcome when wanting to expand it. If the burbaites are not brought in and engaged then a rift could develop causing future tax asks to fail.

I hope you take this constructively and realize there is 95% of non downtowners that need to be included in future downtown needs.

Listen, I get what you are saying, and not at all disagreeing that we need to improve the entire city and most importantly make sure that no matter what, whatever we should do is benefit the largest portion of the community.

The thing I am taking issue with is the “the suburbs have been subsidizing downtown” bit, because it is demonstrably untrue. First and foremost, downtown belongs to the entire community, not only the few thousand whom live in downtown proper. The Chesapeake Arena, the ballpark, the Civic Center, Whitewhater facilities, they are for everyone. The Thunder plays in front of the whole community. The downtown library is a resource for the whole city.

But more importantly, they capture sales tax that is distributed city-wide via services. And at a rate far beyond any other part of town.

Finally, the scale of our city makes it very difficult for capital expenditures to be made in an impactful way in more than one area at a time, unfortunately. So we will never be able to see MAPS-like impacts city-wide. HOWEVER, as we continue to invest in the part that EVERYONE uses, we will continue to attract great (privately-funded) projects like Chisholm Creek.

And by the way, I know a number of people who work at Paycom. They love downtown and spend plenty of time there.

Chad, I think that 10 million per mile of road is worse than that... I think it's 10M per lane mile, so 40M for a mile of 4-lane road...

Chad, I think that 10 million per mile of road is worse than that... I think it's 10M per lane mile, so 40M for a mile of 4-lane road...

For an OKC Bond widening, it's about $750,000 to $1M per lane mile, IIRC. A new highway, from scratch, it's certainly at that higher level.

Sorry if this has been discussed already - I tried searching this thread, but didn't find anything, but what is the purpose of the cross- connector on 5th street? Like the track in front of the Santa Fe Station, it's not on the maps of the route anywhere, but I know what that one is for.

Is there going to be a shorter loop just for downtown?

Sorry if this has been discussed already - I tried searching this thread, but didn't find anything, but what is the purpose of the cross- connector on 5th street? Like the track in front of the Santa Fe Station, it's not on the maps of the route anywhere, but I know what that one is for.

Is there going to be a shorter loop just for downtown?

I believe it was paid for by the federal government as part of the Santa Fe station remodel. I don’t think as of yet it has any function other than to bypass Bricktown if necessary.

Edit: I see you are referring to 5th street. It is a turn back to bypass Midtown. (Track blockage from an accident, event, or construction)

This whole “the suburbs have been subsidizing downtown for _____ years” business is malarkey; I’m sorry. Which square mile of the 622 miles of Oklahoma City are you talking about? In around 2014 or 2015 (sorry, I don’t recall which) the City of OKC on the request of Downtown OKC Inc (now the Downtown OKC Partnership) pulled a sales tax report on the roughly square mile that compromises Bricktown. During the preceding year, that square mile produced roughly FIVE PERCENT of the entire city’s sales tax. Meaning one dollar in 20 of the budget for the police protection, fire protection, library, road, water and whatever other services we ALL enjoy was paid for by a single square mile OF SIX HUNDRED TWENTY TWO.

Mind you, this was before Midtown, Film Row, West Village, Automobile Alley and on and on had any appreciable entertainment or retail. Today, all of those areas together probably account for 2-3 times that percentage.

Do those areas attract dollars from OKC’s subrurban City limits? Sure they do. Of course, those people could just as easily be going to Edmond or Norman or Dallas or wherever to spend their entertainment dollars. But they don’t. Because downtown OKC (and the rapidly-regenerating core like Uptown, Paseo and Plaza) holds their attention. It ALSO, by the way, attracts dollars FROM Edmond. And Mustang. and Yukon. And Norman. And Dallas. And Amarillo. And Fort Smith. And Los Angeles. And London. And Stuttgart. And Trondheim. And Sydney. And Taipei. How do I know this? Because I’ve talked to people from all of those places in the past 30 days, and I talk to a FRACTION of the people my employees talk to. Those people pay for your police, and your fire protection, and your library, and your road resurfacing. And they’re not going to visit your neighborhood no matter how nice the park is there.

By the way, there is a HUGE concentration of jobs within 2 miles of downtown. And part of the reason they are there is because of amenities.

Also, I live very close to downtown, and work IN downtown. When I shower (or whatever) it goes down 100 year old pipes. They were paid for by my grandfather’s grandfather. When someone builds a housing addition in BFE in the middle of a field, guess who pays for THOSE city sewer lines? ME. The guy who shops at the Homeland at 18th and Classen and eats lunch at the Midtown Garage, and who NEVER shops at the Crest in Edmond or eats at the Dairy Queen in Moore.

Should OKC be spending money in the suburbs? Neighborhoods I mean? The other 620 or so square miles? Yes, OF COURSE it should. Just tell me where. Tell me where you can spend $100 million (about a year of a penny tax collection for the whole city) and make the same type of impact. One mile of street construction runs about $10 million these days, so a year’s worth of MAPS tax will build ten miles of new section line roads. Where are you going to put those ten miles? That’s one years’ worth. Of our money. Yours (when you shop in the OKC city limits) mine, and the couple from Taipei.

Scissortail Park is about $130 million, so a year and four months’ worth. Want one in your neighborhood? Great. Now...what about the 98% of OKC residents who don’t live within 2 miles of you? What do they get? Bupkus? Well, they’re on the phone and they’re PISSED.

Look, I’m for finding as many ways as possible to improve ALL of OKC. And in some cases, this DEFINITELY means finding ways to make our suburbs work better through suburban retrofit, making parts of them more walkable, more dense, better generators of sales tax, and in some cases - sorry to say - less parasitic and less of a drain on our community resources.

But this notion that the suburbs are “subsidizing” downtown? Please. It’s horse puckey. Do the other 615 miles COMBINED generate more tax than the 6-7 that comprise downtown proper and the immediate neighborhoods? Of course. But show me another 6-7 square miles which generate anywhere near the same amount of tax. I’ll wait right here.

Wish I could give you more reputation points! And I wish they translated into beer...

For what it's worth, the bus system does get people downtown. Pretty much any bus I would need to take to get to my destination has a transfer in downtown...

I live in Yukon and work at Britton and Broadway Ext. I wished my company had either stayed nearer to downtown or moved closer to the core. But that was out of my control. I want to move to the core but right now my income and my personal comfort levels with debt don't allow me to move to the core, at least not where I want to. I hope that the continued improvements to our downtown bring even more HQs and higher-paying jobs so I can eventually move to the core. With Global Payments and the Monarch I might find something. These companies moved to the core because of MAPS and the SC. I can't vote on MAPS, but I sure see the benefits and I tend to shop quite a bit in OKC limits to fund the ecosystem. The SC helps me as a commuter park further away from Bricktown on the CBD and still enjoy all of the entertainment options.

More sidewalks, trees, park improvements, and roads is really all the burbs' need and should be enough to keep them happy. Importing some sand and building a beach on Lake Hefner would be a great project as well.

Large scale infrastructure/entertainment improvements must continue to remain downtown or nearby.

urbanized is right, the improvements are focused on downtown for a very specific reason.

And every-time you read one of those glowingly positive articles about OKC, its because of Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Midtown, Plaza, Paseo or 23rd. No one cares about NW Expressway.

...No one cares about NW Expressway.

This type attitude is why future Maps will struggle getting enough votes to pass.

Wha I see in this thread is if you have a different viewpoint about SC then you are labled as Anti OKC. And this is something that is creating a real rift in general population too.

It is important downtown work hard to include or educate all city citizens because we will all need their support to pass future Maps. But taking the approach “if you don’t live in inner core you don’t matter” is the wrong one in my opinion.

Of the 100 things Maps has done I only have exceptions/questions about 1 of them. OKC has done a great job with Maps but there is more to do and if SC fails (in sense or perception or ridership) that will be talked about more than the 99 great stories.

And its not too late to start working with all city citizens and its not too late to stop trying to drive a wedge between districts. The NW Highway response is an example of what I hear more and more.

Lets all hope we can bridge gaps and overcome district differences for the betterment of our great city. Just because a poster has tons of posts, does not make their voice better. Its the content of the post that matters. Of course, someone who has posted a lot likely has built up a lot of cred. I don’t have posters who can follow me and say “I’d give you more cred if I could”. Does that make my posts less important or on topic.

To be honest we won’t know the success of this project for at least 2-3 years. Once the newness wears off will we have enough sustainable riders to support it plus expand it. I hope it works and worry it won’t.

Looks like the sixth vehicle - #201806, in Bermuda Green livery - was delivered today. Only one more to go before our fleet is complete!

https://www.facebook.com/OKCStreetcar/posts/2231258490448606

Looks like the sixth vehicle - #201806, in Bermuda Green livery - was delivered today. Only one more to go before our fleet is complete!

https://www.facebook.com/OKCStreetcar/posts/2231258490448606

I do like the colors of all 3 iterations plus I like the paint style/schemes. They do look “modern” compared to what I’ve seen in other cities. Great job on that OKC planners!

This type attitude is why future Maps will struggle getting enough votes to pass.

Wha I see in this thread is if you have a different viewpoint about SC then you are labled as Anti OKC. And this is something that is creating a real rift in general population too.

It is important downtown work hard to include or educate all city citizens because we will all need their support to pass future Maps. But taking the approach “if you don’t live in inner core you don’t matter” is the wrong one in my opinion.

Of the 100 things Maps has done I only have exceptions/questions about 1 of them. OKC has done a great job with Maps but there is more to do and if SC fails (in sense or perception or ridership) that will be talked about more than the 99 great stories.

And its not too late to start working with all city citizens and its not too late to stop trying to drive a wedge between districts. The NW Highway response is an example of what I hear more and more.

Lets all hope we can bridge gaps and overcome district differences for the betterment of our great city. Just because a poster has tons of posts, does not make their voice better. Its the content of the post that matters. Of course, someone who has posted a lot likely has built up a lot of cred. I don’t have posters who can follow me and say “I’d give you more cred if I could”. Does that make my posts less important or on topic.

To be honest we won’t know the success of this project for at least 2-3 years. Once the newness wears off will we have enough sustainable riders to support it plus expand it. I hope it works and worry it won’t.

When I say no one cares about NW Expressway I mean,

Outside of sidewalks, trees, park improvements there isn't a MAPS large scale project you could do that would matter. It's not a slight against the burbs, it's just that most of these projects simply don't make sense outside of CBD/bricktown/DD/midtown. They would struggle then fail. Nobody would care, it wouldn't matter. Tourists aren't going to venture out that far. There isn't the density needed to sustain it. I live in the burbs so its not a urban v burb thing. It's just the reality.

Building a beach on Lake Hefner would be an exception. That would likely work. Other than that though there isn't a whole lot to work with at NW Expressway and MacArthur. A commuter rail line down NW expressway to the core is more likely to be handled by the RTA than Maps too.

This type attitude is why future Maps will struggle getting enough votes to pass.

Wha I see in this thread is if you have a different viewpoint about SC then you are labled as Anti OKC. And this is something that is creating a real rift in general population too.

It is important downtown work hard to include or educate all city citizens because we will all need their support to pass future Maps. But taking the approach “if you don’t live in inner core you don’t matter” is the wrong one in my opinion.

Of the 100 things Maps has done I only have exceptions/questions about 1 of them. OKC has done a great job with Maps but there is more to do and if SC fails (in sense or perception or ridership) that will be talked about more than the 99 great stories.

And its not too late to start working with all city citizens and its not too late to stop trying to drive a wedge between districts. The NW Highway response is an example of what I hear more and more.

Lets all hope we can bridge gaps and overcome district differences for the betterment of our great city. Just because a poster has tons of posts, does not make their voice better. Its the content of the post that matters. Of course, someone who has posted a lot likely has built up a lot of cred. I don’t have posters who can follow me and say “I’d give you more cred if I could”. Does that make my posts less important or on topic.

To be honest we won’t know the success of this project for at least 2-3 years. Once the newness wears off will we have enough sustainable riders to support it plus expand it. I hope it works and worry it won’t.
I care about NW Expressway, a lot. I've spent much of my life living near it. My dad lives in Surrey Hills and has for 25 years. I hope that it becomes a transit corridor. I hope that there are some retrofit developments which begin to reign in the sprawl and make it more economically sustainable for the City. I have enthusiastically posted about the proposed development near NW Expressway and Penn.

And in fact I care greatly about all of OKC. And all of us should.

That still doesn't mean that we should be spending MAPS money there if it is not impactful. You have yet to respond to any of the reasons I mentioned that the focus of limited MAPS funds is simply more impactful in the core, and benefits ALL citizens of OKC, not only in quality of life but in tax collection.

Please, share with us a list of how we can spend MAPS money at the fringes and benefit the entire community - all 622 square miles of it - as much as we are in rebuilding the core, creating venues for all citizens, bringing new economic development, securing tax revenues. I have yet to see a single suburban-oriented idea with the city-wide benefit you mention wanting. Sure, we could build a really great park somewhere, but that only benefits residents within a few square miles. Sprawl IS the problem; and we need to mitigate and reverse its effects.

If you can't provide reasons (other than emotional ones) that OKC needs to abandon its effort to rebuild a center decimated by sprawl, and can't come up with compelling examples of suburban projects drawing on limited MAPS resources that might in some way benefit the entire community, I will posit that you are the one driving a wedge. What has been done to date (and continues to be done) in the core of OKC has been specifically designed to benefit ALL citizens, and it has been an overwhelming success in this regard. The thing that will kill MAPS is not a few extreme (and likely a bit tongue-in-cheek comments regarding not caring about NW Expressway. What will kill MAPS is when people who don't fully understand its purpose and impact raise a "where is mine" cacophony. YOUR benefit from MAPS is exactly the same as MINE is. Already.

When I say no one cares about NW Expressway I mean,

Outside of sidewalks, trees, park improvements there isn't a MAPS large scale project you could do that would matter. It's not a slight against the burbs, it's just that most of these projects simply don't make sense outside of CBD/bricktown/DD/midtown. They would struggle then fail. Nobody would care, it wouldn't matter. Tourists aren't going to venture out that far. There isn't the density needed to sustain it. I live in the burbs so its not a urban v burb thing. It's just the reality.

Building a beach on Lake Hefner would be an exception. That would likely work. Other than that though there isn't a whole lot to work with at NW Expressway and MacArthur. A commuter rail line down NW expressway to the core is more likely to be handled by the RTA than Maps too.

Thats your opinion which you are entitled to. But simply not true. The senior citizen center on Rockwell is a smashing success with numbers I believe 3 to 4 times higher than even the best projections. Sidewalks being installed citywide are good too. Trails seem to be looked at favorably. So to say Maps is only for inner core is misguided.

But back to my key point, its what citizens cityywide think that will matter the next time we vote for a Maps. We have to engage all citizens to keep their support. Most love what Maps has done for the core and understand the premise behind most money going there. But it only takes one mistep to change opinions and lose support. 99 of 100 are great and 100 is yet to be determined. I’ve expressed my concerns with it. And as a Thunder supporter I know the day will come when we have to build a new arena to keep up with other cities. That alone will be a tough sell if we have a Maps failure along the way. There are people who will go all out against it saying private should pay. I have no problem with public supporting it for many reasons. Thats what I’m getting at is if SC fails that poays into the hands of future asks/projects. We will always need to keep Maps going to get abead and stay ahead. Maps saved our city imo. I think its been a game changer which other cities try to emulate. We do not want any failures. Most other cities have had some type of failures with inner core projects and have harder fights to get things passed. I don’t want that here because Maps has made our core a destination vice a drive thru.

I hope that makes sense. Just because I have reservations regarding one project don’t discount my support for every other Maps we’ve accomplished. One aspect is citywide support has to be there and we have to always be thinking in terms of how to positively engage all citizens and keep our forward mometum. What I hear from my friends is disdain for the SC. That does not mean it will fail but there are city residents who are skepitical and we do not want to give them any ammunition to fight the next ask when it comes time to vote.