Embark and the new RTA need a penny or even better a 1 1/2 cent sales tax dedicated to service operations and then raise property taxes accordingly in the RTA service zone to add and expand capital projects.

I say, let them sue.

I'm sure they can implement minimal Sunday bus, they've added/extended night service no problem, they can have at least a few routes (like the crosstown routes) on Sunday with hourly frequencies noon-6pm. I think there's more to this story than what's being told.

Want to be a big city, act like it. (even suburbs here in Seattle area have minimal, Sunday service).

Panda, I think the assessment for EMBARK transit operations (and RTA) should come from the very low gas tax (since it is transportation) and/or property taxes [in the service area]. Sales taxes should remain focused on city services and infrastructure (MAPS).

I say, let them sue.

I'm sure they can implement minimal Sunday bus, they've added/extended night service no problem, they can have at least a few routes (like the crosstown routes) on Sunday with hourly frequencies noon-6pm. I think there's more to this story than what's being told.

Want to be a big city, act like it. (even suburbs here in Seattle area have minimal, Sunday service).

Agreed. Just add the Sunday service to the streetcar and see what happens, or figure out a very, very limited service for both streetcar and bus for Sundays and do both (and maybe enhance Sunday streetcar service if it's a Thunder game day). It's completely pathetic that the bus service here is so ignored/unfunded (up until recently, that is, when they did make improvements), that it's embarrassing to not have Sunday bus service. There are *tons* of people here that don't have cars, quite a bit more noticeable now that we live and work near the middle of the city.

Embark and the new RTA need a penny or even better a 1 1/2 cent sales tax dedicated to service operations and then raise property taxes accordingly in the RTA service zone to add and expand capital projects.

The vote for funding the RTA is coming - it just hasn't happened yet. They're still hashing out the details of the taxation district and how much they will need.

Still pulling for Greater Oklahoma City Area Rapid Transit as the name, can’t go wrong with GOCART.

Gocart ��

Still pulling for Greater Oklahoma City Area Rapid Transit as the name, can’t go wrong with GOCART.

lol. Outstanding.

Still pulling for Greater Oklahoma City Area Rapid Transit as the name, can’t go wrong with GOCART.

If they don't do this, it's a failure to be clever and make it easy to remember. We should just start tweeting that to them.

This reminds me of - Dallas = DART = Dallas Area Rapid Transit.

Now if they would just build a streetcar system in Ft Worth = Ft Worth Area Rapid Transit or FART.

This reminds me of - Dallas = DART = Dallas Area Rapid Transit.

Now if they would just build a streetcar system in Ft Worth = Ft Worth Area Rapid Transit or FART.

Nothing will beat South Lake Union Transit in Seattle.

This reminds me of - Dallas = DART = Dallas Area Rapid Transit.

Now if they would just build a streetcar system in Ft Worth = Ft Worth Area Rapid Transit or FART.

Fort Worth already has a transit system, named The T... Not sure I really wanna ride the FART.......

Nothing will beat South Lake Union Transit in Seattle.

Ding! Ding!

Also, the Ft Worth one would technically be the FWART... not as fun.

https://i.imgur.com/5ryTUna.jpg?1

Dang that looks terrible. Already hated how many overhead power lines we have.

https://www.facebook.com/okcstreetcarcommittee/photos/a.203752873100965.51616.203749819767937/1004272026382375/?type=3&theater

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/24302227_1004272026382375_6160553894963267228_o.jp g?oh=1655230bca29d6e7d9a448ecbcaa6b89&oe=5AD21C1A

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/24210333_1004275986381979_5877728224492479598_o.jp g?oh=767655036e761548c00dd9bf2c7ad4e4&oe=5AC88F36

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/24302108_1004275619715349_3851072163925958963_o.jp g?oh=9c25a6b59e6c65efd5d042f42b128303&oe=5AD50C5E

There better be some kind of warning system for when the streetcar is coming toward that traffic circle cause considering people still don't know how to use one and then you throw in the streetcar, there's gonna be some wrecks!

Thanks for the pics!

A little behind on this thread but...you can bike to almost any spot on the route in under 10 minutes or walk there in under 30 minutes. OK has the 8th highest obesity rate in the US. Stop being a fat-ass and move around a little. A colossal waste of $130 million.

A little behind on this thread but...you can bike to almost any spot on the route in under 10 minutes or walk there in under 30 minutes. OK has the 8th highest obesity rate in the US. Stop being a fat-ass and move around a little. A colossal waste of $130 million.

It's meant to be just the first phase that will ultimately reach much farther.

A little behind on this thread but...you can bike to almost any spot on the route in under 10 minutes or walk there in under 30 minutes. OK has the 8th highest obesity rate in the US. Stop being a fat-ass and move around a little. A colossal waste of $130 million.

If you can catch the street car at the right time, that trip to Bricktown from St. Anthony will only take five minutes. Critical when you have a limited lunch break. Plus, not everyone is going to start their journey at a streetcar stop. Some may be 15 minutes from a stop, but 45 minutes away from their final destination.

Regarding the obesity and fat-ass comment, Mass transit helps promote a walking culture as you see in many cities not considered "fat-ass". If our streetcar system fails miserably, it would be because people are too lazy to walk.

A little behind on this thread but...you can bike to almost any spot on the route in under 10 minutes or walk there in under 30 minutes. OK has the 8th highest obesity rate in the US. Stop being a fat-ass and move around a little. A colossal waste of $130 million.

The streetcar will encourage more walkability. In general, Oklahomans aren't more obese because they're just lazy. It's because the built sprawl environment pushes everyone to drive everywhere. Other sprawl cities have similar obesity problems. Streetcars can encourage more walking. It's just like how no one biked in Portland, the city built bike infrastructure, and people started biking. If your concerns are walking and obesity then you should be thrilled about the streetcar as a first step in lowering OKC's dependence on cars.

A little behind on this thread but...you can bike to almost any spot on the route in under 10 minutes or walk there in under 30 minutes. OK has the 8th highest obesity rate in the US. Stop being a fat-ass and move around a little. A colossal waste of $130 million.

Do I want to walk that far? Do I have time to walk that far? Is it mid July and 95 and scorching? Is it mid January and my hands are numb? Is it an April rainy day?

Or is it 70 and sunny, but I don't have time to walk one end to the other? Am I from out of town and didn't bother renting a car because OKC has the streetcar to get me around downtown? Do I not want to deal with walking under the railroad viaduct, crossing EKG and navigating my way to Midtown?

It's not a waste of $130 million.

Do I want to walk that far? Do I have time to walk that far? Is it mid July and 95 and scorching? Is it mid January and my hands are numb? Is it an April rainy day?

Or is it 70 and sunny, but I don't have time to walk one end to the other? Am I from out of town and didn't bother renting a car because OKC has the streetcar to get me around downtown? Do I not want to deal with walking under the railroad viaduct, crossing EKG and navigating my way to Midtown?

It's not a waste of $130 million.
It's still a waste of $130 million regardless.

If you can catch the street car at the right time, that trip to Bricktown from St. Anthony will only take five minutes. Critical when you have a limited lunch break. Plus, not everyone is going to start their journey at a streetcar stop. Some may be 15 minutes from a stop, but 45 minutes away from their final destination.

Regarding the obesity and fat-ass comment, Mass transit helps promote a walking culture as you see in many cities not considered "fat-ass". If our streetcar system fails miserably, it would be because people are too lazy to walk.

If our streetcar system fails, it is not because the city was too lazy. This streetcar system is a waste of money. Though I think it will be cool and I’ll support it because I want to see transit succeed, OKC would have been better off using BRT until elevated or tunneled heavy rail in downtown is justified.

If our streetcar system fails, it is not because the city was too lazy. This streetcar system is a waste of money. Though I think it will be cool and I’ll support it because I want to see transit succeed, OKC would have been better off using BRT until elevated or tunneled heavy rail in downtown is justified.

We're not waiting another 50 years now !!! :wink:

One thing the streetcar will do is spur a whole lot of infill development, in fact it already is going on.

Every thing that the city spends money on is not for everyone. That does not necessarily make it a waste of money. Most of the people I talked to about the river improvements in the original maps thought they were a waste of money. Many also thought another arena was a needless item. In retrospect, there was a lack of vision. Those items have proved their worth and I am confident that the streetcar will too.

Do I want to walk that far? Do I have time to walk that far? Is it mid July and 95 and scorching? Is it mid January and my hands are numb? Is it an April rainy day?

Or is it 70 and sunny, but I don't have time to walk one end to the other? Am I from out of town and didn't bother renting a car because OKC has the streetcar to get me around downtown? Do I not want to deal with walking under the railroad viaduct, crossing EKG and navigating my way to Midtown?

It's not a waste of $130 million.

Sure it is. It's an inefficient use of funds. Improving the bus system is a much better/cheaper way to move people around town if that's really your concern.

Sure it is. It's an inefficient use of funds. Improving the bus system is a much better/cheaper way to move people around town if that's really your concern.

Yeah, a bus system that no one rides because it's too confusing. Great thing about this system is it goes around and around. You don't have to learn 5 different connection points to figure out how to get somewhere. Oh and a streetcar comes around...what, every 10 or so minutes?

I'll take this $130 million investment anyday over bus, BRT or tunneled pluplans...

Yeah, a bus system that no one rides because it's too confusing. Great thing about this system is it goes around and around. You don't have to learn 5 different connection points to figure out how to get somewhere. Oh and a streetcar comes around...what, every 10 or so minutes?

I'll take this $130 million investment anyday over bus, BRT or tunneled pluplans...

That can easily be done with buses at a fraction of the cost. I know they aren't as sexy as a streetcar, but everything you just said can be done just as well or better with a bus. The average streetcar costs $4M and laying streetcar track costs an average of $30M per mile. I don't know the OKC numbers but I assume they're similar. Buses range from $400k to $700k and they obviously share the road with everyone else.

But we really don't need either for that area. JUST WALK OR BIKE.

There are so many better ways to spend $130M.

Every thing that the city spends money on is not for everyone. That does not necessarily make it a waste of money. Most of the people I talked to about the river improvements in the original maps thought they were a waste of money. Many also thought another arena was a needless item. In retrospect, there was a lack of vision. Those items have proved their worth and I am confident that the streetcar will too.

+1

That can easily be done with buses at a fraction of the cost. I know they aren't as sexy as a streetcar, but everything you just said can be done just as well or better with a bus. The average streetcar costs $4M and laying streetcar track costs an average of $30M per mile. I don't know the OKC numbers but I assume they're similar. Buses range from $400k to $700k and they obviously share the road with everyone else.

But we really don't need either for that area. JUST WALK OR BIKE.

There are so many better ways to spend $130M.

We are getting between 6 and 7 miles of track. A portion may be counted twice, but at 30M per mile then we must be getting a good deal. Our total cost is somewhere near 130 M.
I'll take the sexy any day of the week.

With our extreme weather, it's not always feasible to walk or bike.

According to the streetcar's Wikipedia page, rail installation is $50 million, and track length is ~5.6 miles when I mapped it out, which comes down to $8.9 million/mile.

One thing I know for sure. Success or not, I'm going to vote for the extension, just to piss certain people off.

We have a know-it-all in our midst.

One thing I know for sure. Success or not, I'm going to vote for the extension, just to piss certain people off.

Speaking of pissing people off with expansions. Wouldn’t the most efficient route to the northern core be up walker from midtown where the line already exists? It would serve the community of paseo, Jefferson Park, etc. while giving merchants in uptown a boon. Not many riders along 13th e-w and classes n-s. It would also help stem some of the speeding on 23rd if it expanded west to OCU.

Sure it is. It's an inefficient use of funds. Improving the bus system is a much better/cheaper way to move people around town if that's really your concern.

It is, but again, it is confusing and it is not a good system. If, for some reason, they were able to upgrade the bus system, a lot of people still wouldn't ride it because it is a bus and that doesn't have the appeal of a streetcar. Once the streetcar is up and running, upgrade the bus system and make mass transit a good option, as now, it is not. That was always the plan that the funds would be used for Santa Fe and the streetcar, knowing BRT and bus system upgrades would come afterwards.

Speaking of pissing people off with expansions. Wouldn’t the most efficient route to the northern core be up walker from midtown where the line already exists? It would serve the community of paseo, Jefferson Park, etc. while giving merchants in uptown a boon. Not many riders along 13th e-w and classes n-s. It would also help stem some of the speeding on 23rd if it expanded west to OCU.

I would love to see the Streetcar run up Walker. I'm sure the Heritage Hills folks would throw absurd amounts of money at a campaign to prevent this from happening. Which is a shame. It would so cool to take the streetcar from midtown straight up to Paseo and there would be a lot of ridership back and forth, I'm sure.

Today's Oklahoman (12/14/2017) titled 'Growing Pains: Streetcar construction brings long-term excitement, short-term difficulty' is a good description of the temporary inconveniences of implementing the OKC Streetcar construction.

http://digital.newsok.com/Olive/ODN/Oklahoman/get/DOK-2017-12-14/image.ashx?kind=block&href=DOK%2F2017%2F12%2F14&id=Pc0010900&ext=.jpg&ts=20171214110552

http://digital.newsok.com/Olive/ODN/Oklahoman/get/DOK-2017-12-14/image.ashx?kind=block&href=DOK%2F2017%2F12%2F14&id=Pc0011000&ext=.jpg&ts=20171214110552


“It’s horrible when you reduce hours because people depend on their jobs, and it’s Christmastime,” Schaffer said. “I’m doing my best to keep the place open and that’s the way it is. It’s not sustainable.”

The streetcar project was announced in February 2017, with an estimated completion in late 2018. The track will run through the central business district connecting Bricktown and Midtown when completed, at a cost estimated to be more than $130 million. Linking business districts across the greater downtown area is the end goal, with hopes to drive traffic to Automobile Alley, Midtown and Bricktown by providing easily accessible public transportation.

Let's hope the businesses along the streetcar route can ride out these growing pains--this project will pay big dividends.

That article mentions that Kaisers has had to "change the hours they are open."

How would any of us be able to know the difference? Their hours are always random.

That article mentions that Kaisers has had to "change the hours they are open."

How would any of us be able to know the difference? Their hours are always random.

Kaiser's exists only to torture your soul.

City agency recommends streetcar fares
(http://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=444-City-agency-recommends-streetcar-fares)
In its meeting today, the Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority (COTPA) will vote on a resolution to approve a proposed rate structure for the city's streetcar system.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar121517.jpg


The recommended fares are the result of a study conducted by a paid consultant, Four Nines Technologies, which was hired in 2016.

Four Nines were hired to review fares for the entire EMBARK transit system which also includes city buses, paratransit and the Oklahoma River ferry.

The consultants collaborated with city staff and conducted surveys and listening sessions around the community and also organized focus groups. They also evaluated comparisons to peer bus and streetcar systems in similar cities.

If the COTPA board approves the provisional fare structure, additional public input will be sought before any new fares are ultimately adopted.

The recommendations for the streetcar are for $1 for a 1-hour pass, $3 for a full day and $32 for a month. Youth 7-17, seniors over 60, disabled and those on Medicare would be eligible for half-price fares.

Universal passes that would cover both buses and the streetcar would be $4 a day, $14 for a week and $50 a month, with the same half-price fares available to those who qualify.

Under the proposed plan, bus fares would remain unchanged at $1.75 for a single trip and $3 for an express trip.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/embarkfares1a.jpg


Streetcar passes will be available on-line and at ticket vending machines on streetcar platforms. Proof of fare payment must be carried on the streetcar and violators will be subject to a fare citation.

The streetcar is currently under construction in Bricktown, Midtown, Automobile Alley and the central business district. The system is expected to be complete and operational by the end of 2018.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcarroute.jpg

Really glad to see some of the recommendations from the fare focus groups made it through, especially keeping the bus fares steady and bolting on streetcar access at no additional cost. For the streetcar-only fares, $3/day seems fairly reasonable, and I like $1/hour as an easy, round number.

Really wanted free fares for at least the implementation...

The pricing seems decent, although I would like to see an annual pass. I am curious what constitutes a day pass. 24 hour period? Reset @ midnight? Does the streetcar even plan to run past midnight on Fri/Sat?

Really wanted free fares for at least the implementation...

The pricing seems decent, although I would like to see an annual pass. I am curious what constitutes a day pass. 24 hour period? Reset @ midnight? Does the streetcar even plan to run past midnight on Fri/Sat?

I would like to see denver's transit day which starts at 3am. Buying a day pass at any time during the calendar day is valid until 2:59am the following day, which is essentially midnight on the "transit day".

Really wanted free fares for at least the implementation...

The pricing seems decent, although I would like to see an annual pass. I am curious what constitutes a day pass. 24 hour period? Reset @ midnight? Does the streetcar even plan to run past midnight on Fri/Sat?

An annual pass would be great. Currently there is no option for this on the bus system, either.

The way the buses work is you get 24 hours from the time the pass is activated (i.e., the first time it's swiped at a farebox). I assume the streetcar passes will be the same.

Not sure on the hours on Fri/Sat nights.

Saw this on Lackmeyer's chat today and totally agree with him.

Guest said:
What do you think of the $1 fare recommendation for the Streetcar?

Steve Lackmeyer replied:
The study questions were skewed and I have no faith in the survey and how it was done.

Is COTPA pretty much for sure going to pass that fare schedule?

I completed the online survey, but did not get into a focus group. I am curious why Steve has no faith in the survey?


Doing some quick math, taking an Uber/Lyft from Bricktown to Midtown is about $6.30 (minimum fare). So depending on how many people you have with you, it might not be very enticing to try the streetcar. I really think we are missing a huge opportunity here by not having free fares. I am legitimately concerned for the success of the streetcar with this provisional fare schedule.

Is COTPA pretty much for sure going to pass that fare schedule?

I completed the online survey, but did not get into a focus group. I am curious why Steve has no faith in the survey?


Doing some quick math, taking an Uber/Lyft from Bricktown to Midtown is about $6.30 (minimum fare). So depending on how many people you have with you, it might not be very enticing to try the streetcar. I really think we are missing a huge opportunity here by not having free fares. I am legitimately concerned for the success of the streetcar with this provisional fare schedule.

I have heard of possibilities of companies or or groups sponsoring the streetcar with free fares during certain months or events.

We were told in the focus group I attended that there would be fares, that that part was already decided. The questions would be the following: how much will it cost, how will it be structured, and how will people pay?

I'm generally down with the idea of a free streetcar, at least for a period, but the problem is the same as Sunday service: how is that fair for bus riders? This is especially salient when it comes to fares. Let's face it, a downtown streetcar is going to be (primarily/largely) used by well-heeled Downtowers and visitors. So we're going to give them free public transit but charge the (primarily/largely) lower-income groups that use the bus system full-freight? (Note that, for reduced fares, you can't qualify just on the basis of low income).

How does Kansas City get away from any potential flack in that regards? The information I can find on why KC's streetcar is free is that the property taxes along the route more than pay for the operational costs. And the lack of costs of ticket taking equipment and personnel is also cost-saving.

I might ride the streetcar just once for fun but I honestly will never use it.

I would assume the ticket purchasing process would be automated, but how in the world would they be able to check the age of passengers? They couldn’t possibly have an attendant at every possible stopping point? Seems like a ridiculous situation.

I would assume the ticket purchasing process would be automated, but how in the world would they be able to check the age of passengers? They couldn’t possibly have an attendant at every possible stopping point? Seems like a ridiculous situation.

It will likely be on the honor system with random spot checking by a transit officer. In Portland and Denver there are no turnstiles to enter or exit the station, and no one to check when you board. However at random times someone will check for your fare and you better have it or it will be a fairly stiff penalty. Most people do end up buying the fare. I imagine the first several months of operation will only issue warnings as people need to learn how to use the honor system first.

I might ride the streetcar just once for fun but I honestly will never use it.

That is the general consensus in our office. Four people going to lunch have to rush to eat and get back on the streetcar within one hour or it is $2 RT. 4 people equals $8. Even if we paid $5 for parking...still more convenient to drive and cheaper.

I know this has been mentioned, but there is no question this first iteration of the streetcar will be somewhat a novelty for almost everyone except the very few who actually live right along its route, but hopefully, (a) a lot of residential units will pop up near its stops, and more importantly (b) this is the first part of a more robust system that stretches to more districts and maybe even connects to transportation networks in Norman, Edmond, and other cities. Developing a public metro system like DFW (except with far better model than the awful park-and-ride model of the A-Train/Green Line) should be the long term goal.

That is the general consensus in our office. Four people going to lunch have to rush to eat and get back on the streetcar within one hour or it is $2 RT. 4 people equals $8. Even if we paid $5 for parking...still more convenient to drive and cheaper.

Can be even cheaper to Uber depending how close you work to where you want to eat downtown. Often a small group can hop in an Uber for less than the price to park.

It will likely be on the honor system with random spot checking by a transit officer. In Portland and Denver there are no turnstiles to enter or exit the station, and no one to check when you board. However at random times someone will check for your fare and you better have it or it will be a fairly stiff penalty. Most people do end up buying the fare. I imagine the first several months of operation will only issue warnings as people need to learn how to use the honor system first.

I know in Denver many have Eco Passes provided or subsidized by their employer.

It will likely be on the honor system with random spot checking by a transit officer. In Portland and Denver there are no turnstiles to enter or exit the station, and no one to check when you board. However at random times someone will check for your fare and you better have it or it will be a fairly stiff penalty. Most people do end up buying the fare. I imagine the first several months of operation will only issue warnings as people need to learn how to use the honor system first.

Yep. That's how it works on the lightrail back home in Jersey City. Anecdotally, it seems that the large majority of people do purchase tickets.

I know in Denver many have Eco Passes provided or subsidized by their employer.

Can you imagine if downtown companies offered employees a choice - a parking spot or the amount the parking spot costs annually? You might find a lot more people choosing alternative forms of transportation and OKC wouldn’t need as many parking garages. One of the biggest problems in the U.S. is that so much of driving is subsidized that people don’t actually make economic choices around transportation.