Way too goddam many.

:rolleyes:

We have a MAPS 3 Streetcar Oversight Committee meeting today at 3:30 in the new EMBARK Conference room next to Clarity Coffee on West Main Street in the bottom of the new City Art's Parking Garage. This would be the first meeting since before the holidays. It will be an interesting update on the project and some of the issues raised here will probably be addressed.

I am in the process of handing off the @okcstreetcar twitter account to the very capable hands of Michael Scroggins at EMBARK. Michael has done a remarkable job rebranding our transit system and I am confident that he will continue to apply those talents to our city's new streetcar system. Before I do though, a few editorial messages. lol

https://www.facebook.com/events/237309020012546/

New line of revenue: Streetcar route development favors independent business owners

By: Molly M. Fleming The Journal Record January 26, 2017

OKLAHOMA CITY – Gallup Map & Art Co. owner Pat Carroll has been reshaping the product he’s offering in his Kansas City, Missouri store.

The store has been in downtown since the 1960s. In the late 1980s, Carroll considered moving. The area had changed from having bustling Saturday mornings to being quite empty.

But he heard about the then-developing Power & Light District and that Union Station was going to be renovated. He thought he should stick around for those new projects.

In 2013, Kansas City announced it would build a streetcar line, which opened in May 2016. Carroll’s business is on the route. His foot traffic has increased and he’s even reshaping the store’s product line. He often hears that people saw the store while on the streetcar, and then they return to buy something.

“I’m trying to re-create some products that catch people’s eyes,” he said. “I’m trying to come up with new ideas that are priced for an impulse buy. I’m trying to take advantage of the fact that there are more people seeing my products.”

Oklahoma City businesses along the streetcar route could see the same results, said D.J. Baxter, a streetcar development consultant from Salt Lake City. He said the streetcar will increase walkability, which in return creates higher retail sales. Those purchases are made at smaller, local businesses and restaurants.

“People on foot buy more and more often,” he said Wednesday at the Leadership OKC Alumni Association luncheon.

Baxter said the streetcar will help with redevelopment efforts because people see the lines as permanent. Bus routes can easily change.

“The installation of the tracks in the street emphasizes permanent interest in development in downtown,” he said.

Early indications are that development is 4.5 times more likely along the streetcar line than it would be without the system, said Nicolle Goodman, director of redevelopment programs for the Alliance for Economic Development of Oklahoma City. She said development is two times greater up to three blocks away from the line than it would be without the streetcar. She also spoke at the LOKC luncheon.

But the streetcar isn’t the city’s first. The city had a streetcar until the 1940s. The lines were covered or removed as the streets were updated.

Baxter said this generation’s streetcar line development is being fueled by two groups that are moving into downtown: baby boomers and millennials. They want to be in walkable, urban communities.

At the American Institute of Architects-Central Oklahoma’s monthly luncheon, Baxter said that baby boomers want to be near arts, restaurants, and medical centers so they don’t have to drive.

“For the millennials, it’s a vibe,” he said. “There’s a lot of culture to be found around downtown. Their living preferences will drive real estate for as far as we can see.”

Developer Gary Brooks invested in real estate along the streetcar line when he and his partner Charlie Nicholas purchased the First National Center. He said the streetcar and the park are the MAPS 3 projects that he’s excited about the most. He rode the streetcar in Portland all the way to line’s end.

“What I discovered in Portland is it really moves people around,” he said. “It’s an amenity.”

He said he’ll be a vocal proponent for expanding the line because it needs to run from the Wheeler District to Uptown 23rd Street.

“You just can’t have this one little loop here,” he said.

He even made a provocative statement about downtown: The streetcar could be the tipping point to get a grocery store in the area.

But people won’t be buying their groceries in the central business district unless the streetcar does what it’s expected to do. Baxter said a key for the project is to think what the city is trying to accomplish. It shouldn’t be to get people quickly across town.

“What streetcars really do well is to stimulate pedestrian activity,” he said.

In cities nationwide, the routes built between 2001 and 2008, ranging in length from 1.6 to 8 miles, have generated returns on investment starting at 750 percent. In Kansas City, the 2.2-mile route has created a 1,764-percent ROI.

“There’s a cool vibe going on,” Baxter said. “It’s largely because the streetcar had a big impact on that. That’s the primary reason I know of personally.”

That's the thing. It's not the most efficient means of getting from one end of the line to the other, but it is by far the most human-centric means of transit that exists.

http://www.news9.com/story/34438978/construction-to-begin-on-maps3-streetcar-project

A lot of people I've talked to have no idea this is happening and are just complaining about the construction. I am rooting so hard for this to be extremely successful. And I think it will.

Stream of the groundbreaking:

https://www.periscope.tv/w/1OyKAoPnprgJb

A lot of people I've talked to have no idea this is happening and are just complaining about the construction. I am rooting so hard for this to be extremely successful. And I think it will.

Pretty much. I haven't talked with anyone, other than on here, that likes it. It's a good thing it was lumped in with MAPS3, cause I imagine had it been it's own agenda it wouldn't have come close to becoming a reality.

Pretty much. I haven't talked with anyone, other than on here, that likes it. It's a good thing it was lumped in with MAPS3, cause I imagine had it been it's own agenda it wouldn't have come close to becoming a reality.

I haven't talked with anyone, other than on there, that hates it.

Weird.

I've gone to several ground breakings including the streetcar today. The crowd was definitely bigger than other ground breakings and they even pointed out that they had a bigger crowd than expected and were hoping they had enough refreshments.

I haven't talked with anyone, other than on there, that hates it.

Weird.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like we said the same thing.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like we said the same thing.

I think you said completely opposite things. Your post indicated you hadn't spoken with anyone (off of OKCTalk) that likes it and cafeboeuf's post indicated he hadn't spoken with anyone (off of OKCTalk) that hates it.

I think you said completely opposite things. Your post indicated you hadn't spoken with anyone (off of OKCTalk) that likes it and cafeboeuf's post indicated he hadn't spoken with anyone (off of OKCTalk) that hates it.

hmmm, if that's the case makes me think he lives downtown, although the 2 people I know that live down there were griping about this 'stupid train' (their words) just last week.

My biggest concern is driving down town after it's functioning. I've always heard horror stories about how it makes it a nightmare to drive and that it causes the traffic to be worse. I'm willing to give it a shot, but I know right now as someone who doesn't live downtown, and drives when I go there, that if traffic is worse because of it, it will probably really limit how much I go down there, which is kind of disappointing as a resident not wanting to go to the main entertainment district because of something like this. So far I'm trying to be optimistic about it, but I definitely have my doubts.

02/07/2017

Civic leaders break ground on MAPS 3 Oklahoma City Streetcar track line

Civic leaders broke ground Tuesday on the MAPS 3 Oklahoma City Streetcar track line, starting work on the metro’s first streetcar system in generations and launching a new era in local public transit.

“The MAPS 3 OKC Streetcar is one of the most ambitious projects in Oklahoma City’s history, and it will forever transform the way we live, shop, work, play, eat and get around downtown and the surrounding districts,” said Mayor Mick Cornett. “We can expect to create memorable public spaces and increased private development like locally-owned shops, restaurants and more housing options.”

Among those joining Mayor Cornett at the groundbreaking were Ward 6 Councilwoman Meg Salyer, Ward 7 Councilman John A. Pettis, Jr., and MAPS 3 Citizens Advisory Board Chairman Tom McDaniel.

The ceremonial groundbreaking kicks off about two years of construction and testing on tracks in and around downtown Oklahoma City, with OKC Streetcar service scheduled to begin in December 2018.

During the current construction phase until May, traffic will be affected on E Sheridan Avenue between E.K. Gaylord Boulevard and Joe Carter Avenue. At least one lane of eastbound Sheridan will be closed during this phase, and both eastbound lanes will close east of Mickey Mantle Drive once construction begins east of that street.

Stay updated on how construction will affect traffic on City streets as the project progresses by signing up for email alerts or visiting the streetcar construction update page on the MAPS 3 website.

The groundbreaking was held on Sheridan in front of The Melting Pot in Bricktown, which the OKC Streetcar will link with the central business district, Automobile Alley, Midtown, Chesapeake Energy Arena, Myriad Botanical Gardens and the future MAPS 3 Downtown Public Park and Convention Center.

About the OKC Streetcar
EMBARK will operate the OKC Streetcar as part of the City’s public transit system.

The streetcar will have two route options: a 2-mile Bricktown loop, and a 4.8-mile mainline serving the rest of the central urban core. Click here for a map.

The OKC Streetcar will serve 22 stops with five streetcars, which ride on rails flush with the street. The streetcars use overhead wires for electric power on part of the route, and batteries for the rest.

The streetcar will use City streets in the same way as other vehicles, obeying traffic signals and other rules of the road. EMBARK is developing a safety campaign to educate drivers, pedestrians and cyclists how to avoid accidents once streetcar service begins.

Each OKC Streetcar stop is ADA-accessible for easy boarding with signage, real-time arrival information, covered shelters and a ticket vending machine.

The project budget is $131 million and includes a storage and maintenance facility already under construction at SW 7th Street and Hudson Avenue.

Brookville Equipment Corporation is building the streetcars and Herzog-Stacey and Witbeck is building the rail line. Consultants include ADG, Jacobs Engineering, AECOM and SOJ. EMBARK is negotiating a contract with Herzog Transit Services for managing the OKC Streetcar’s day-to-day operations.

Pretty much. I haven't talked with anyone, other than on here, that likes it. It's a good thing it was lumped in with MAPS3, cause I imagine had it been it's own agenda it wouldn't have come close to becoming a reality.
Yeah i agree everyone I've spoke to about it either doesn't care or doesn't like it.

I myself, the more and more I think about it the more I hate it. I wish it had it its own preserved row and not in general purpose automobile lanes. Though we've had this conservation before and a subway or elevated rail can't be justified yet. I'm just not a fan of streetcars with a few exceptions.

I hope it's successful though.

Wow. Despite the pomp and circumstance and "ground breaking" that took place today where they actually dug up some of the cement on Sheridan, I just drove by and all the barricades are down and they tarred over the hole they dug up today.

Yep. The contractor decided to shift the starting point to Joe Carter. It is my understanding that they kept the ceremony in place at that location because The Melting Pot had already committed to donating all of the food/etc. The part that was excavated will however be exactly where the rail line is going in. The contractors have full discretion where to start, stop, and shift their work. Heavy penalties are built into the contract should they exceed their completion dates. So even though it's weird, I say let them have at it and put it in however they want to do it.

Had a very difficult time getting to IHOP around 10:15 a.m., got lucky when someone backed out of the south front parking next to the building.

A number of areas have various stages of development and/or street construction in Bricktown, Midtown, Downtown & SOSA districts.

hmmm, if that's the case makes me think he lives downtown, although the 2 people I know that live down there were griping about this 'stupid train' (their words) just last week.

My biggest concern is driving down town after it's functioning. I've always heard horror stories about how it makes it a nightmare to drive and that it causes the traffic to be worse. I'm willing to give it a shot, but I know right now as someone who doesn't live downtown, and drives when I go there, that if traffic is worse because of it, it will probably really limit how much I go down there, which is kind of disappointing as a resident not wanting to go to the main entertainment district because of something like this. So far I'm trying to be optimistic about it, but I definitely have my doubts.

I've driven behind it in Portland and it's no different than being behind a city bus. It follows all traffic signals and road laws. It's a net positive on traffic and parking woes. There are less people driving downtown as those who have already parked simply only need to park once and not drive around in circles as they go about their day.

The impacts will be significant and they will be mostly positive. If you are worried about how traffic will be, you'll soon learn it's not a nuisance.

Most people's concept of trains in this city are those that tie up traffic as they cross in Moore or up on the north side. This is not a freight train that sits and blocks an intersection for 25 minutes. Streetcars are speedy, nimble, and blend in with traffic. The only time they stop traffic is if they are stopped at a transit stop, and the unofficial rule in Portland was to just zip around it if it is safe. The time spent at stops is so short compared to a bus because of the number and location of doors combined with the low floor deck and lack of fare checking at the door. You pull the cord to signal a stop, the operator stops at the stop, the doors slide open people get off and people get on, the door shuts and is back up to speed. My experience is the passenger exchange is usually completed before the light turns green anyway.

This streetcar is going to do great things for OKC.

And if you are behind it, I believe it will have signal priority so it may get you through several lights you may have otherwise hit.

Wow. Despite the pomp and circumstance and "ground breaking" that took place today where they actually dug up some of the cement on Sheridan, I just drove by and all the barricades are down and they tarred over the hole they dug up today.


I believe they just dumped some dirt on the pavement, then cleaned it up after the ceremony.

I've driven behind it in Portland and it's no different than being behind a city bus. It follows all traffic signals and road laws. It's a net positive on traffic and parking woes. There are less people driving downtown as those who have already parked simply only need to park once and not drive around in circles as they go about their day.

The impacts will be significant and they will be mostly positive. If you are worried about how traffic will be, you'll soon learn it's not a nuisance.

I truly hope you are right. My fear is that unless it's free people aren't going to use it, because Bricktown is so small you can walk the whole thing. So in my case I drive downtown, and have no issue walking from Bass Pro, to Harkins, then maybe up to the Brewery for dinner. No need to pay to go a few blocks, and most of my friends are this way. So my initial thought is all it does is add something else on the roadways. For the sake that my tax dollars are going to it I do hope I'm wrong and it's successful. I think it ends being successful because people who live down there utilize it more so than people visiting for whatever reason.

I truly hope you are right. My fear is that unless it's free people aren't going to use it, because Bricktown is so small you can walk the whole thing. So in my case I drive downtown, and have no issue walking from Bass Pro, to Harkins, then maybe up to the Brewery for dinner. No need to pay to go a few blocks, and most of my friends are this way. So my initial thought is all it does is add something else on the roadways. For the sake that my tax dollars are going to it I do hope I'm wrong and it's successful. I think it ends being successful because people who live down there utilize it more so than people visiting for whatever reason.

It won't serve every visit or every purpose. You're right, Bricktown is too small to use it for going from the Melting Pot to the Criterion. What if you're going to Dust Bowl after dinner? What if you're at St. Anthony's dropping your mom off for a procedure that will take 2 hours? The streetcar is right or front and you can go to Bricktown to Fuzzy's for a quick lunch without touching your car. There's a ton of possibilities!

Pretty much. I haven't talked with anyone, other than on here, that likes it. It's a good thing it was lumped in with MAPS3, cause I imagine had it been it's own agenda it wouldn't have come close to becoming a reality.

Didn't they poll on MAPS 3 items and the only one that polled poorly was the convention center?

Didn't they poll on MAPS 3 items and the only one that polled poorly was the convention center?

I'm sure that one did poorly too. I imagine both were the bottom 2.

It won't serve every visit or every purpose. You're right, Bricktown is too small to use it for going from the Melting Pot to the Criterion. What if you're going to Dust Bowl after dinner? What if you're at St. Anthony's dropping your mom off for a procedure that will take 2 hours? The streetcar is right or front and you can go to Bricktown to Fuzzy's for a quick lunch without touching your car. There's a ton of possibilities!

You're right that's what I see it most useful for, but isn't that getting finished last? To me the Bricktown loop is completely gimmicky. The only thing that makes it worthwhile imo is it connect places like midtown to bricktown. I think that's what most people have an issue with. We've made all this progress to make bricktown walkable. And it is, it's small so you can easily park on either side and get where ever you need. But it is what it is. We can just hope that everything goes smooth, construction gets done when it's supposed to, and it intrigues enough people to try it and gain ridership.

My biggest concern is driving down town after it's functioning. I've always heard horror stories about how it makes it a nightmare to drive and that it causes the traffic to be worse. I'm willing to give it a shot, but I know right now as someone who doesn't live downtown, and drives when I go there, that if traffic is worse because of it, it will probably really limit how much I go down there, which is kind of disappointing as a resident not wanting to go to the main entertainment district because of something like this. So far I'm trying to be optimistic about it, but I definitely have my doubts.
My current experience in driving downtown is that, unless it's during rush hour or special events, driving is really a relative breeze compared to many other places in the city (near Quail Springs Mall). I have no worries about problems caused by the streetcar after it's completed.

I'm sure that one did poorly too. I imagine both were the bottom 2.

That is incorrect. Support for the streetcar in polling was 50% supporting, 34% against, and 16% unsure, which is very good and the second highest support among polled items.

The central park was 36% support, 45% against, and 18% unsure.

On the other hand, the convention center was 27% supporting, 57% against, and 16% unsure. That's why citizens should be outraged that city leaders prioritized this item above all others.

Source: http://www.news9.com/clip/4169685/breaking-down-maps-3-polls

Should a streetcar route replicate a successfule bus route, i've been wondering if the embark system should run a bricktown to midtown route to get those folks used to a route like the streetcar plans propose, i get maybe thats the wrong approach if in fact the bus and streetcar are intended to serve different crowds. The best I can find is the 050 "Downtown Discovery" route, it runs from the Downtown Transit Center to the Bass Pro and back around thru B-town, its sort of part of the streetcar route. I can't find a bus route that runs up toward Saint Anthony, or that part of Midtown.
http://embarkok.com/use/schedules?route=050 heres that 050 route its like half of the streetcar route.
edit: the 050 route is free and for some reason it doesn't being operating until 10 A.M. on most days, and of course like all the busses doesn't operate on sundays.

Should a streetcar route replicate a successfule bus route, i've been wondering if the embark system should run a bricktown to midtown route to get those folks used to a route like the streetcar plans propose, i get maybe thats the wrong approach if in fact the bus and streetcar are intended to serve different crowds. The best I can find is the 050 "Downtown Discovery" route, it runs from the Downtown Transit Center to the Bass Pro and back around thru B-town, its sort of part of the streetcar route. I can't find a bus route that runs up toward Saint Anthony, or that part of Midtown.
http://embarkok.com/use/schedules?route=050 heres that 050 route its like half of the streetcar route.
edit: the 050 route is free and for some reason it doesn't being operating until 10 A.M. on most days, and of course like all the busses doesn't operate on sundays.

This is a fantastic idea!

What if you're at St. Anthony's dropping your mom off for a procedure that will take 2 hours? The streetcar is right or front and you can go to Bricktown to Fuzzy's for a quick lunch without touching your car.
This is exactly why I think it needs to connect to the Innovation District as soon as possible. There are so many people on campus that would love to make it downtown for lunch but don't want to mess with the all parking and moving of cars.

That is incorrect. Support for the streetcar in polling was 50% supporting, 34% against, and 16% unsure, which is very good and the second highest support among polled items.

The central park was 36% support, 45% against, and 18% unsure.

On the other hand, the convention center was 27% supporting, 57% against, and 16% unsure. That's why citizens should be outraged that city leaders prioritized this item above all others.

Source: http://www.news9.com/clip/4169685/breaking-down-maps-3-polls

I know one of the people that do this kind of polling, and after him telling me how they go about this nowadays, I have zero confidence in accuracy of most polls nowadays. I get that I'm in the minority here, most people like that super urban feel with everything that's hip that all the supposedly cool cities are doing. IMO moving to be like these other cities is a huge mistake. I've always enjoyed the little big town feeling OKC has. I don't want to be Charlotte. I don't want to be Portland, and I sure as hell don't want to be Dallas. Every time we get something because other cities are size has it I just roll my eyes. We don't need it cause Kansas City has it. I guess I just don't see the value sometimes in all this. I hear things like how it keeps us competitive and keeps people staying here. I really don't believe it does. I'm not saying it isn't a factor, but I think it's so much smaller than people want you to believe. IMO people come to or stay in Oklahoma for a couple of reasons, they were born here, they have family here, or they want their space. They don't come here for the weather and they don't come here cause OKC is the hip new place to be. And you know what, that's perfectly fine.

Should a streetcar route replicate a successfule bus route, i've been wondering if the embark system should run a bricktown to midtown route to get those folks used to a route like the streetcar plans propose, i get maybe thats the wrong approach if in fact the bus and streetcar are intended to serve different crowds. The best I can find is the 050 "Downtown Discovery" route, it runs from the Downtown Transit Center to the Bass Pro and back around thru B-town, its sort of part of the streetcar route. I can't find a bus route that runs up toward Saint Anthony, or that part of Midtown.
http://embarkok.com/use/schedules?route=050 heres that 050 route its like half of the streetcar route.
edit: the 050 route is free and for some reason it doesn't being operating until 10 A.M. on most days, and of course like all the busses doesn't operate on sundays.

I agree that would be a good idea and would probably help promote ridership and early adopters.

It won't serve every visit or every purpose. You're right, Bricktown is too small to use it for going from the Melting Pot to the Criterion. What if you're going to Dust Bowl after dinner? What if you're at St. Anthony's dropping your mom off for a procedure that will take 2 hours? The streetcar is right or front and you can go to Bricktown to Fuzzy's for a quick lunch without touching your car. There's a ton of possibilities!

There is an increasing number of people living in Bricktown also. It will be a great asset for anyone working in downtown and eventually the OU health complex when that segment is added.

I imagine if this leads to a grocery store down there people that live down there will be super happy. Can't blame them, it'd be annoying to live in such a walk able area and not have a grocery store you can walk to.

I know one of the people that do this kind of polling, and after him telling me how they go about this nowadays, I have zero confidence in accuracy of most polls nowadays. I get that I'm in the minority here, most people like that super urban feel with everything that's hip that all the supposedly cool cities are doing. IMO moving to be like these other cities is a huge mistake. I've always enjoyed the little big town feeling OKC has. I don't want to be Charlotte. I don't want to be Portland, and I sure as hell don't want to be Dallas. Every time we get something because other cities are size has it I just roll my eyes. We don't need it cause Kansas City has it. I guess I just don't see the value sometimes in all this. I hear things like how it keeps us competitive and keeps people staying here. I really don't believe it does. I'm not saying it isn't a factor, but I think it's so much smaller than people want you to believe. IMO people come to or stay in Oklahoma for a couple of reasons, they were born here, they have family here, or they want their space. They don't come here for the weather and they don't come here cause OKC is the hip new place to be. And you know what, that's perfectly fine.

So what are you saying? First you mention how you don't see the value in this, then say how you can see how people who live downtown would see value in this. It seems you are just rambling on about your thoughts. Like, we get it - you personally don't plan to use the streetcar that much and you think it will be a nuisance to drive around. The people voted on this 8 years ago, in that time, significantly more people and businesses have come into situations where the streetcar will be a net positive.

So what are you saying? First you mention how you don't see the value in this, then say how you can see how people who live downtown would see value in this. It seems you are just rambling on about your thoughts. Like, we get it - you personally don't plan to use the streetcar that much and you think it will be a nuisance to drive around. The people voted on this 8 years ago, in that time, significantly more people and businesses have come into situations where the streetcar will be a net positive.

Yes you read that right I don't see value in it, but I can see how people down there would if they get a grocery store. Those are two thought processes from two perspectives. So what I'm saying is essentially what you reiterated to answer your question.

I've always enjoyed the little big town feeling OKC has. I don't want to be Charlotte. I don't want to be Portland, and I sure as hell don't want to be Dallas.

First, OKC is never going to be Dallas or Portland. However, I would actually argue that a streetcar will allow OKC to have more of a small town feel. Remember, OKC used to have a streetcar. It would be a return to OKC's urban roots. More than anything, a successful streetcar will bring the best of urban neighborhoods for those citizens in OKC who don't want to base their lives around their cars. Everyone does not have to choose this option, but it's best for OKC if people don't have to move away to have that lifestyle option.

I know one of the people that do this kind of polling, and after him telling me how they go about this nowadays, I have zero confidence in accuracy of most polls nowadays. I get that I'm in the minority here, most people like that super urban feel with everything that's hip that all the supposedly cool cities are doing. IMO moving to be like these other cities is a huge mistake. I've always enjoyed the little big town feeling OKC has. I don't want to be Charlotte. I don't want to be Portland, and I sure as hell don't want to be Dallas. Every time we get something because other cities are size has it I just roll my eyes. We don't need it cause Kansas City has it. I guess I just don't see the value sometimes in all this. I hear things like how it keeps us competitive and keeps people staying here. I really don't believe it does. I'm not saying it isn't a factor, but I think it's so much smaller than people want you to believe. IMO people come to or stay in Oklahoma for a couple of reasons, they were born here, they have family here, or they want their space. They don't come here for the weather and they don't come here cause OKC is the hip new place to be. And you know what, that's perfectly fine.

You know that Dallas is the opposite of what the streetcar people want the city to be, right?

Oklahoma City is about 0.5% urban and 99.5% suburban. Whatever we do downtown, you'll still have the rest of the city that will be pretty much the same as it is now.

First, OKC is never going to be Dallas or Portland. However, I would actually argue that a streetcar will allow OKC to have more of a small town feel. Remember, OKC used to have a streetcar. It would be a return to OKC's urban roots. More than anything, a successful streetcar will bring the best of urban neighborhoods for those citizens in OKC who don't want to base their lives around their cars. Everyone does not have to choose this option, but it's best for OKC if people don't have to move away to have that lifestyle option.

Interesting insight. I do appreciate it. To many people like to go with the status quo, so my only intent was to give a different perspective, which I'm glad you get. One last thought from me, typically I don't think of OKC as an urban city, I think of it as more suburban. My reasoning is the due to it's landmass, it encompasses a lot more of the 'suburbs' than a typical city. To me this feel is what makes OKC unique for the largest city in a state and part of my opinion that trying to make OKC more urban detracts from it's uniqueness. A common comment I've heard from some of my works vendors when visiting is how OKC has more of a skyline than they would have thought. I always joke that we're still a pretty big city, to which they say well yeah, but you got all this space. Always thought that was interesting.

You know that Dallas is the opposite of what the streetcar people want the city to be, right?

Oklahoma City is about 0.5% urban and 99.5% suburban. Whatever we do downtown, you'll still have the rest of the city that will be pretty much the same as it is now.

I think you missed the point in my comparison.

I don't know what you mean by "we" but as an OKC resident, downtown is just as much a part of my city as it is those who live downtown. I'd bet most of the people that frequent that area don't live there and never plan to. My point being is it's good to get perspective from everyone who goes downtown. Everyone's approach is different and it's nice to hear those different perspectives instead of just telling people they can use the rest of the city.

Interesting insight. I do appreciate it. To many people like to go with the status quo, so my only intent was to give a different perspective, which I'm glad you get. One last thought from me, typically I don't think of OKC as an urban city, I think of it as more suburban. My reasoning is the due to it's landmass, it encompasses a lot more of the 'suburbs' than a typical city. To me this feel is what makes OKC unique for the largest city in a state and part of my opinion that trying to make OKC more urban detracts from it's uniqueness. A common comment I've heard from some of my works vendors when visiting is how OKC has more of a skyline than they would have thought. I always joke that we're still a pretty big city, to which they say well yeah, but you got all this space. Always thought that was interesting.

Whether or not urbanization detracts from the uniqueness of big league city suburbanism doesn't matter. As a city we must urbanize or we die a slow economic death.

Whether or not urbanization detracts from the uniqueness of big league city suburbanism doesn't matter. As a city we must urbanize or we die a slow economic death.

That's a fine opinion to have. I disagree though.

You can disagree if you want. It doesn't mean the facts back up your opinion.

You can disagree if you want. It doesn't mean the facts back up your opinion.

Sure. Anything can be cherry picked.

I think you missed the point in my comparison.

I don't know what you mean by "we" but as an OKC resident, downtown is just as much a part of my city as it is those who live downtown. I'd bet most of the people that frequent that area don't live there and never plan to. My point being is it's good to get perspective from everyone who goes downtown. Everyone's approach is different and it's nice to hear those different perspectives instead of just telling people they can use the rest of the city.

"We" as a city. I don't live downtown either.

This city will be helped tremendously by having a strong urban core. The city is much, much better served by getting a thousand new residences downtown than they are by getting a thousand new houses out on NW 150th and MacArthur.

I imagine much of the ridership will either be convention goers and people out drinking at night, with limited use by daily commuters at least for now. I just wish I lived downtown and could take advantage of this in a regular manner. I've really missed public transit since leaving the Northeast.

I know one of the people that do this kind of polling, and after him telling me how they go about this nowadays, I have zero confidence in accuracy of most polls nowadays. I get that I'm in the minority here, most people like that super urban feel with everything that's hip that all the supposedly cool cities are doing. IMO moving to be like these other cities is a huge mistake. I've always enjoyed the little big town feeling OKC has. I don't want to be Charlotte. I don't want to be Portland, and I sure as hell don't want to be Dallas. Every time we get something because other cities are size has it I just roll my eyes. We don't need it cause Kansas City has it. I guess I just don't see the value sometimes in all this. I hear things like how it keeps us competitive and keeps people staying here. I really don't believe it does. I'm not saying it isn't a factor, but I think it's so much smaller than people want you to believe. IMO people come to or stay in Oklahoma for a couple of reasons, they were born here, they have family here, or they want their space. They don't come here for the weather and they don't come here cause OKC is the hip new place to be. And you know what, that's perfectly fine.

FYI we didn't do it because KC did. KC did it because we voted for ours. They just moved faster to complete it and it's been a success. You would rather OKC stay a third tier city? We won't agree on what makes a city better but I bet we can agree the Thunder has helped our city. There were a lot of folks who thought that would be a flop. There were people saying, "Why can't we just support the Blazers and Redhawks?" There are miles upon miles of suburban and low density settings in OKC for you to enjoy. It doesn't seem as if you really enjoy Downtown much anyway. Maybe you would prefer spending time on the Memorial corridor, or Northwest Expressway. There are many areas of town you can enjoy that offer amenities but lack urbanity.

One last thought from me, typically I don't think of OKC as an urban city, I think of it as more suburban. My reasoning is the due to it's landmass, it encompasses a lot more of the 'suburbs' than a typical city. To me this feel is what makes OKC unique for the largest city in a state and part of my opinion that trying to make OKC more urban detracts from it's uniqueness. A common comment I've heard from some of my works vendors when visiting is how OKC has more of a skyline than they would have thought. I always joke that we're still a pretty big city, to which they say well yeah, but you got all this space. Always thought that was interesting.

It's important to point out that OKC is not that much more suburban than peer cities in population and geography. Just because OKC city limits encompass a larger amount of space, doesn't mean it's necessarily more suburban. OKC still has density and there is just a lot of undeveloped land within the city limits. If OKC re-drew the lines tomorrow to not be so vast, would it be a different city? OKC has an inner core like most cities. I do not think OKC's arbitrary boundaries (which most people don't even know of) make it unique in any meaningful way to people.

I actually think it is dense districts that define any city. When I was growing up in the '90s in Tulsa, no one thought OKC was unique because of it's vast city boundaries. Everyone thought it just lacked character because of it's lack of dense, vibrant districts. Tulsans could point to Cherry Street and Brookside. In my opinion, OKC's renaissance has actually been about the city reclaiming it's identity with Bricktown, Midtown, Automobile Alley, the Plaza District, etc. Those areas are what makes OKC unique even if it's the dense districts of other cities that define their cities too.

^ Indeed. I once redrew OKC's city limits on Google Earth following along the boundaries of census tracts so I could get an accurate population count and got it down to 127 sq mi and about 421,000 people (2010 Census data) for a density of 3,300/sq mi for the whole city, contrary to OKC's current city limit density of 1,050/sq mi.

FYI we didn't do it because KC did. KC did it because we voted for ours. They just moved faster to complete it and it's been a success. You would rather OKC stay a third tier city? We won't agree on what makes a city better but I bet we can agree the Thunder has helped our city. There were a lot of folks who thought that would be a flop. There were people saying, "Why can't we just support the Blazers and Redhawks?" There are miles upon miles of suburban and low density settings in OKC for you to enjoy. It doesn't seem as if you really enjoy Downtown much anyway. Maybe you would prefer spending time on the Memorial corridor, or Northwest Expressway. There are many areas of town you can enjoy that offer amenities but lack urbanity.

How about I'll enjoy and go where I want, and you can stop making assumptions on where you think I should spend my time.

The arrogance and onesidedness on this forum is getting out of hand. I've been a good member for awhile now, making contributions where I can, sharing insight and personal opinions, and a different perspective at times. I visit a few other forums on the internet, none with as much cool local info as this, but yet I find so many of the people on here blatantly rude, and only interest is to attempt to belittle and prove their superiority. It's extremely disheartening because in all reality I have a greater chance of running into most of you folks, than anyone else I associate with on another forum, yet the amount of disrespect I see (and I'm not really even talking towards my opinions) is uncalled for.

With that being said I'm not trying to pick on you directly soonerguru, although I don't appreciate your disrespect, it's more of a rant to numerous members on this board. Clearly my opinions and perspective are not welcomed by some so I'd recommend to those to navigate to my profile and add me on your block list so you can skip my comments.

Sure. Anything can be cherry picked.

While I'm on the streetcar subcommittee and so have a bias, I also am approached by people because they know I'm on the streetcar subcommittee. I have never gotten one negative comment in the 7+ years we've been working on this. The most negative thing I hear is frustration about how long it's taking. And, while I live downtown, I haven't always done so and have many friends who live in Northwest Oklahoma City. They're all excited about being able to park somewhere and ride the streetcar to various events/restaurants/bars, etc. Remember, the streetcar touches or is a block from the Civic Center, the Art Museum, the Bombing Memorial, the new central park, Midtown, St. Anthony's, Automobile Alley, Deep Deuce, the Chesapeake Arena, the Bricktown Ballpark, the Convention Center, Bricktown. If you work downtown and the weather's bad you can ride the streetcar to Midtown or Bricktown for lunch. People staying in hotels aren't stuck eating within a few blocks of their hotel. The streetcar did poll high, and that was despite the lack of interest the Chamber and many downtown businesses had in it initially. They likely would have been happy if it had polled poorly, so I don't suspect any manipulation to make it appear more popular than it was.

I know one of the people that do this kind of polling, and after him telling me how they go about this nowadays, I have zero confidence in accuracy of most polls nowadays. I get that I'm in the minority here, most people like that super urban feel with everything that's hip that all the supposedly cool cities are doing. IMO moving to be like these other cities is a huge mistake. I've always enjoyed the little big town feeling OKC has. I don't want to be Charlotte. I don't want to be Portland, and I sure as hell don't want to be Dallas. Every time we get something because other cities are size has it I just roll my eyes. We don't need it cause Kansas City has it. I guess I just don't see the value sometimes in all this. I hear things like how it keeps us competitive and keeps people staying here. I really don't believe it does. I'm not saying it isn't a factor, but I think it's so much smaller than people want you to believe. IMO people come to or stay in Oklahoma for a couple of reasons, they were born here, they have family here, or they want their space. They don't come here for the weather and they don't come here cause OKC is the hip new place to be. And you know what, that's perfectly fine.

Zuplar, I think that alternate opinions are fine and stimulate dialogue. Quite frankly, it's cool to see debate on all of these issues. I'd like to address a wide variety of thing including elements in this earlier statement just so that the history is clear.

1. Everyone needs to keep in mind that this project was first conceived in 2005. The campaign for it officially began in 2008. Back then, there was a greater quantity of legitimate landline telephones that enabled a higher level of accuracy in our polling. Your criticisms about polling accuracy are not inaccurate if you apply it to today's context. It is much more difficult to poll today and takes greater resources to do so with accuracy.

2. Portland was the inspiration for the streetcar. I was working for a company in the suburbs of Portland but staying downtown. I found the streetcar inspiring and wanted to bring that here. My father was a bus driver who worked his way up to managing a transit system. I saw the potential for the streetcar in OKC as part of an overall public transit effort. The 2005 Fixed Guideway Study gave this idea legitimacy because it was the selected mode for the core of the broader Regional Transit System that is still currently under development. These other cities referenced, Kansas City, Cincinnati, etc actually came after voters approved our system. They were not a factor in our campaign. The streetcars we referred to were Portland, Seattle, and Tacoma. Tucson was our sister city at the time in trying to get a program off of the ground. These other systems came into play and were installed quickly because of the Obama Administration and the Stimulus Program. We were not part of that. Those monies ushered in streetcar systems with haste throughout the country.

3. In reference to other comments, streetcars will not inhibit traffic flow in most areas and will actually expedite travel alongside as lights turn green for the trains. Some stops will actually be removed from traffic. Others that are within mixed traffic will cause people to stop or go around the train just as they would a city bus.

4. It is really frustrating to me that it has taken nine years to get to a groundbreaking. However. I am thrilled that we can learn from other cities and avoid mistakes that others have made in their designs.

5. I think for any citizen to fully understand the impact of the streetcar, they need to literally walk the route. Downtown OKC 2017 is not the downtown of 2008 when this was first proposed. Developers have literally made decisions on where to locate and at what density level specifically due to the streetcar route. There is extraordinary diversity along the line. Housing for all income levels, businesses of all types and our main civic centers are along this line. This system is for everyone. I am tired hearing people demonizing this project who couldn't tell you one institution or business name along the line. The assertions often made are uneducated.

Best wishes to all of you.

https://freepressokc.com/maps-3-streetcar-work-begins/

Great work, Urban Pioneer. Your effort is appreciated. Just to be clear on my end, my concerns about the success of the line do not mean I am excited about it for OKC. I hope for nothing more than this line to gain great ridership, stimulate core development, and lead to expansion of the system thooughout the metro. Keep up the great work.

To me, the most interesting aspect of this project (and I guess streetcars in general) is the way ridership and investment feed off of each other. Like, some developers will see the rails in the ground and decide to build along the route. This in turn creates more places along the route that people want to get to, meaning more people will presumably ride the streetcar. As more people ride the streetcar, developers become even more anxious to develop along the route, and so on and so forth.

Most excited to see what development we get along Robinson; with the streetcar running down it from 10th St all the way to Sheridan it seems to be the best way to start connecting the CBD to Midtown, and as of now there are tons of surface lots waiting to be developed.

The street car is going to turn automobile alley into a very cool very unique area. The steady flow of tourists up the street car will feed the restaurants, boutiques and breweries. Tourists downtown will either hop on the bricktown loop or AA loop. I have no idea how it will go over with local residents, but there will be a solid base of tourists using it.