Ironic indeed.

Listen, this isn't even my argument. I was only hazarding a guess at why cafeboeuf took issue with you putting quotation marks around the word boulevard. I'm well aware that the street is an abomination and I have always been quite critical of it.

The point is, the street requires neither hyperbole or intellectual dishonesty to still qualify as a piece of crap. Sometimes, eliminating those tactics from your argument makes it MORE powerful.

Since you already do such a good job of pointing those out, I'm assuming you'll let me know of any specific examples...

I think it was personal, and I've enjoyed everyone's tiptoeing around that. His issue was clearly about "not needing criticism from afar" or whatever.

Yeah, it felt like the usual "Spartan doesn't get to have an opinion from Cleveland" claptrap.

Yeah, it felt like the usual "Spartan doesn't get to have an opinion from Cleveland" claptrap.

Nah, Spartan is free to have commentary as he so wishes.

It'll be a boulevard, regardless. No need for quotes or pithy commentary from afar.


Nah, Spartan is free to have commentary as he so wishes.

Okay...

Sometimes these threads give me "mommy and daddy are fighting" flashbacks...

All the BLVD-related comments/discussion should probably be moved to the BLVD thread... unless it specifically relates to the talk about interaction between the two.

This was a big day today at Santa Fe Station as the RTA memorandum of understanding was signed between the mayors of OKC, Edmond, Midwest City, Del City, Moore and Norman.

OKC Streetcar was discussed at length by Mayor Cornett.http://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11877&stc=1

http://m.newsok.com/oklahoma-city-metro-area-mayors-vow-cooperation-for-regional-transit-services/article/5464097

A truly historic and significant event for the future of transit. Here's the full video of the ceremony...

RTA MOU Signing Ceremony (http://www.news9.com/clip/12042687/oklahoma-mayors-meet-to-discuss-regional-transit-agreement)

Here's another very informative article...

Q&A: Okla. City Area Mayors Launch Effort to Form Regional Transit System (http://oklahomawatch.org/2015/12/01/qa-okla-city-area-mayors-launch-effort-to-form-regional-transit-system/)

All in all, 5 years isn't that long to get a commuter rail system up and going.

My guess is that we are a minimum of eight to ten years away to a operational system assuming that initial voter support occurs in 2017 for the Oklahoma City portion.

Why were other larger suburbs like Mustang and Yukon, and possibly even El Reno not included? or were they and they declined? These are some of the fastest growing communities.

^I had the same question.

I think Canadian County sees the western end of the system being WRWA (which makes a lot of sense in the big picture) and just doesn't see a lot of value in it for them. As it is, Oklahoma and Cleveland counties combining forces is still really good.

You can't do everything for everyone.

Are there actually plans to incorporate WRWA? It makes a ton of sense, but didn't realize that was part of the plan.

No you're absolutely right, I'm just speaking very tentatively based on where most discussion has gravitated.

Maps & Graphics (http://centralokgo.org/maps-graphics/)

Yeah I feel like it would be pretty dumb not to include WRWA. To me that would be really helpful for tourists or people visiting downtown for work that don't want to have to rent a car.

I think it would perform decently well as a transit line, but not great. Just to play devil's advocate... a lot of cities fixate on the airport route and end up with low ridership, few connections in between except to the airport (god forbid the train carrying the important business people make a stop!), and the end result is a maligned system that only collects $2.50 for a $25 ride (calculate the farebox recovery on that) and is so impugned in public that it endangers future extensions that would fix the ridership problem.

I've seen that a lot. Cleveland kind of has that problem with the last 5 miles of the Red Line, for instance. But then again, the LRT was basically the top factor that won that city the RNC, so what do I know? lol

I think a few small things can be done however in our context to optimize the line. It absolutely HAS to connect to neighborhoods and assets along the way. There is really not enough ridership between WRWA and the downtown Sheraton to justify such a route.

However, if you stop in Capitol Hill, then take SW 29th and Meridian, maybe just 4-5 stops between downtown and WRWA, that could work. It would be equitable, serve diverse groups, provide flexible options for different users, and in general that would be a train that is worth running all-day. Travelers can take it from the terminal to their hotel on Meridian or downtown, low-income workers can take it from the southside to jobs downtown, southside, on Meridian Ave, or at WRWA; middle-income workers can connect to meetings downtown or Meridian or from the larger OKGO system, transfer downtown and take it to their jobs at the FAA or WRWA. And on and on. If you connect more than just the airport suddenly you actually create huge value.

A transit line will fail if most riders are just being shuttled from Point A to Point B. However if some get on at A and off at C, others get on at B and off at P, a few take it from A to Z, some just get on at M to get to Z - that is the kind of flexibility that you have to have in order to get a justifiable return from a rail transit investment. The strength is in the corridor, not the endpoints.

The main issue with the red line to the airport at PDX is the transit times. It simply doesn't work for most employees at the airport, and doesn't work for the bulk of travelers either.

Your typical airport employee has a shift from 4/5am-1230/130pm, or 4/4pm-1230/130am. There are shifts in between, but the bulk fall on those two times frames I listed. The first train arrives at PDX at 4:49am, effectively useless for the first several thousand employees. The last train for the night leaves at 11:49pm. Thus making it useless for the last several thousand employees.

This same phenomenon would hurt OKC ridership, because the bulk of our flights leave from 530-7am, and the bulk of our arriving flights are at night from 10p-1am.

We would need trains arriving at 430am at the latest, and a last train to leave at 100am. Portland doesn't even do this and they have one of the best transit systems in the country. And it's a major reason I don't take the train to work. I simply can't rely on it because the times either cut way too close or miss the mark completely.

Tough to do that as a transit agency where everything has to be streamlined. Just 1 4:30 am train means you now have a third shift of unionized train operators who start at 45-50K.

It's a pretty good idea if it can be worked out.

I agree with you, I am just pointing out a source of major ridership issues to the airport. If you're going to serve the airport, you need to serve it when the majority of the people need to go there or leave from there.

I like the progress that has been made and it looks like it will be a huge success once the funding mix is identified. However, I did want to comment on the initial RTD study and mention that to me it has way too many stops on the North/Edmond route.

In order for commuter rail to be successful, it needs to be a MASS form of transit that is as fast as possible. To get people out of their cars they would PAY to ride a train if it got them downtown and at least as quick as it would be to drive (faster than a rush hour drive).

We have so many stops along the North route, I fear that there will be a lot of in and egress from the trains which will slow the overall trips down too much. For example, the state capitol is only a couple of miles from Santa Fe station downtown (along with the OHC), do we 'really' need a Commuter Rail stop on N 23rd when those riders could go to Santa Fe and transfer to bus OR streetcar going into the OHC (and Capitol)? Consider that it will cost $$ to build a 23rd Street station and you 'still' will be 6 blocks away from most Capital buildings and OHC folks will still likely go to Santa Fe and transfer, do we have that many state employees AND if so, shouldn't the state chip in to build that stop.

Anyway - that was just my first reaction in seeing the fixed guideway study again now that the RTD is a reality. Wow, we need to be very careful with the stops vs. the mode of transit. CR is meant to be commuter oriented, not a light rail (with many stops).

Here's my idea of stations/stops:

North line: (1) Edmond Station, (2) S. Edmond/N OKC Park N Ride, (3) Britton Station, (4) 63rd Station, (5) Downtown Santa Fe HUB

Key Points - for the S. Edmond/N OKC PnR; pick one at S Edmond or one at I235/Kirk Tnpk but no need for both... I'd say the N OKC PnR is more preferred given the freeway junction and catchment of N OKC and S Edmond. Initially I thought the Britton Station might be too much, but I could see it working IF there is a plan in place to add density to that area. 63rd Station is obvious with the major employers nearby, the major shopping, Nichols Hills, and connection to the Streetcar extension. Again, IMO if we are to have the 23rd Street station I'd like the state to fund at least half of it, otherwise this is pork IMO as downtown with easy transfers is less than 2 miles away (and employees would still have 0.5 or more walk with the station).

South Line: (1) S. Norman PnR, (2) University of Oklahoma Station, (3) Norman Station, (4) North Norman PnR, (5) Moore Central Station, (6) Crossroads PnR, (7) Downtown Santa Fe Station

Key Points: why would we need a Capital Hill station? It's getting Streetcar. .. Why would Moore need two stations less than one mile apart? Just put one at the Town Center area and call it Central. I question the North Norman stop but it could be a viable option for Norman and Moore for PnR. OU should be on the hook for funding the OU Station. I think this line could easily be extended to Purcell which would fully connect the S part of the metro to Downtown.

East Line: (1) OKC Logistics Center, (2) TIK Main Gate, (3) Midwest City Station, (4) Sooner PnR/E Flyer connection, (5) Del City Station, (6) Downtown Santa Fe Station

Key Points: I see the validity of stops at Tinker but I'd hope/expect the feds/TIK to fund and likely design those, MWC/DC can't have a stop every mile, have a MWC station at MW Blvd and a Del City station, the Sooner Rd PnR is a great idea and could connect with the E Flyer to Tulsa, there is NO need for a station at I-40/Eastern - come on.

My proposal has between 5 and 7 stops logically spaced based on population density, employment, and QOL near/at the proposed stops. There are 10 Transit Stations (which likely could have local bus to neighborhoods/employers); 3 of which already exist (Edmond, Norman, Santa Fe) and 3 of which should be funded by other govts (OU, 2 at TIK); leaving us with 4 stations to build from scratch. This could increase by 1 if 23rd Station must be built, but again, I'd expect the state to do at least half of it. There would be 5 Park N Rides, 1 (crossroads) already exists. These are the easiest and cheapest stops to implement and like the stations could have local bus feeding them.

I think my revised RTD is very doable and likely not to cost the estimated $900M. We'd have a faster system that commuters likely would embrace while providing the most need. We'd also create critical mass for the local bus and shuttles to ensure those routes get filled. I see this as a huge win, hopefully this wont take too long to be a reality.

As for a connection to WRWA, I honestly don't thing CR is a viable option given the relative lack of ridership. However, if there could be some way to tie it with the employment base in SW OKC and Mustang then it could very well be viable. Personally, I think this route is best served by Commuter Bus from Downtown - consider that Metro used to run a bus from downtown but cut it due to lack of ridership - I don't think a train would instantly create riders (at least not until the rest of the transit system is in place, creating a critical mass that 'might' very well need airport access).

Why were other larger suburbs like Mustang and Yukon, and possibly even El Reno not included? or were they and they declined? These are some of the fastest growing communities.

They were invited to participate throughout the planning process that led up to this. I did see an occasional Yukon city staffer at a meeting every once in a while. I cannot say whether they directly rejected the offers to participate.

There were occasional discussions about service to the west onward to Yukon and Mustang. My vague recollection is that express bus was brought up several times as a potential solution. Their leadership certainly wasn't at the table demanding a seat.

Regarding the airport, I think the business community would like to see it. Keep in mind that Commuter Corridor Studies are typically based on federal criteria. The models which support federal requirements assess volume and traffic movement. The strongest corridor is from south to north and north to south.

Midwest City and Del City did expect a seat at the table and they were warmly welcomed. I suspect that if a RTA does obtain funding, you will see the west side come along.

The points outline by Catch22 about schedules need to be weighed in the airport operational discussion. Those were great points. I suspect a airport connection could easily be made through a MAPS type initiative. Federal Funding is generally unlikely as the starter though. It might be matched, but only with significant local investment.

As much as I ideologically disagree with Jim Inhofe on many things, it is exciting to see a five year transportation appropriations bill. I am not sure how much of that money is spoken for, but $240 million for mass transit in Oklahoma over five years as part of the highway bill is significant. Kudos to him for doing a good job bringing federal dollars back to Oklahoma on this front.

I am not sure how much of that money is spoken for, but $240 million for mass transit in Oklahoma over five years as part of the highway bill is significant. Kudos to him for doing a good job bringing federal dollars back to Oklahoma on this front.

Oh really? I hadn't seen any real analysis on what that bill contains, that sounds great.

IMO if an airport stop also includes an FAA MMAC stop that will help with the ridership. There are 7,000 employees there. Should be as focused upon as a major work center as Tinker is.

i don't disagree, I just think the mode should be bus for the moment with eventual cr once the far SW part of town gets critical mass.

You're right, there are major employers there (including the FAA) but they are mostly fragmented over a large swath. How could one CR line serve all of that fragmentation economically?

One final thought, you have significant inner city between downtown and WRWA - so there will be inner city bus options unlike those going from downtown to Tinker. This and the fact that it is the #1 single employment site in the state is why CR to TIK makes sense, vs. CR traveling through dense inner SW OKC (already served by bus and will be even better served) to WRWA with a FAA stop then perhaps Mustang. You have employers but they are spread out, and the airport is definitely not the major draw YET since the bus route was dropped. I CAN see it viable after the other bus and CR routes are in place, people would use transit from say, Norman or Edmond to downtown to WRWA. But that is not the case today nor likely wont until the other aspects of the system are in place and mature.

They were invited to participate throughout the planning process that led up to this. I did see an occasional Yukon city staffer at a meeting every once in a while. I cannot say whether they directly rejected the offers to participate.

There were occasional discussions about service to the west onward to Yukon and Mustang. My vague recollection is that express bus was brought up several times as a potential solution. Their leadership certainly wasn't at the table demanding a seat.

Regarding the airport, I think the business community would like to see it. Keep in mind that Commuter Corridor Studies are typically based on federal criteria. The models which support federal requirements assess volume and traffic movement. The strongest corridor is from south to north and north to south.

Midwest City and Del City did expect a seat at the table and they were warmly welcomed. I suspect that if a RTA does obtain funding, you will see the west side come along.

The points outline by Catch22 about schedules need to be weighed in the airport operational discussion. Those were great points. I suspect a airport connection could easily be made through a MAPS type initiative. Federal Funding is generally unlikely as the starter though. It might be matched, but only with significant local investment.

As much as I ideologically disagree with Jim Inhofe on many things, it is exciting to see a five year transportation appropriations bill. I am not sure how much of that money is spoken for, but $240 million for mass transit in Oklahoma over five years as part of the highway bill is significant. Kudos to him for doing a good job bringing federal dollars back to Oklahoma on this front.

I can also see a lot of the West side not being interested in public transport, and I include myself in that. Not saying it's not needed in areas, but it's my opinion that a lot of us moved out this way to get away from the urban core and don't mind being somewhat fragmented.

I have high hopes for the streetcar here in OKC and can't wait to use it, but I also know there are certain elements out there that are just waiting (hoping) for it to fail. This article is being tossed around by those people. I'm sure our streetcar committee has studied the successes and failures in other cities and have tried to plan our operation with lessons learned in mind.


U.S. Cities Spend $1.2 Billion on Streetcars to Nowhere (http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-12-15/streetcars-to-nowhere-roam-u-s-cities-after-stimulus-largess)

The down-and-out men wait for the streetcars on Atlanta’s Edgewood Avenue, especially when the weather turns bad. The blue, blocky, two-car trains, installed at a cost of $98 million to revive downtown, have become a de facto rolling homeless shelter.
The 2.7 mile (4 kilometer) Atlanta loop, which turns one this month, is among more than a dozen streetcar projects rolled out in American cities since 2009 and four in the past year. They are the product of cities’ desire for hipper downtowns and a resurgent U.S. streetcar industry, and are paid for with $1.2 billion from President Barack Obama’s economic stimulus program, other federal sources and matching state and local dollars.
While streetcars in Portland, Oregon and Seattle have succeeded -- measured by high ridership and nearby investment -- others have struggled with cost overruns, construction delays, traffic snarls and accidents as drivers adjust to the giant machines gliding down the middle of roads. Seen as starter legs of more expansive systems, the nascent lines fuel criticism that the money should have been spent on existing public transit rather than going to carry people short distances slowly.

I have high hopes for the streetcar here in OKC and can't wait to use it, but I also know there are certain elements out there that are just waiting (hoping) for it to fail. This article is being tossed around by those people. I'm sure our streetcar committee has studied the successes and failures in other cities and have tried to plan our operation with lessons learned in mind.


U.S. Cities Spend $1.2 Billion on Streetcars to Nowhere (http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-12-15/streetcars-to-nowhere-roam-u-s-cities-after-stimulus-largess)

The down-and-out men wait for the streetcars on Atlanta’s Edgewood Avenue, especially when the weather turns bad. The blue, blocky, two-car trains, installed at a cost of $98 million to revive downtown, have become a de facto rolling homeless shelter.
The 2.7 mile (4 kilometer) Atlanta loop, which turns one this month, is among more than a dozen streetcar projects rolled out in American cities since 2009 and four in the past year. They are the product of cities’ desire for hipper downtowns and a resurgent U.S. streetcar industry, and are paid for with $1.2 billion from President Barack Obama’s economic stimulus program, other federal sources and matching state and local dollars.
While streetcars in Portland, Oregon and Seattle have succeeded -- measured by high ridership and nearby investment -- others have struggled with cost overruns, construction delays, traffic snarls and accidents as drivers adjust to the giant machines gliding down the middle of roads. Seen as starter legs of more expansive systems, the nascent lines fuel criticism that the money should have been spent on existing public transit rather than going to carry people short distances slowly.

Is there any studies or anything about the cost to ride the streetcar with those failures listed above?

I hope OKC's SC begins as free (1 year or more). We need to break the mold of this city's automobile mentality, and I truly believe the most effective way to do that is to present this option as free. Then when it (hopefully) shows success with high ridership, then introduce a fee plan that is justified by said previous success.

Free is good, but far too many folk have the feeling that "free"=="worthless" so it could well be counterproductive.

I think a minimal token (pun unintentional but appropriate) fare on the order of 5 or 10 cents would be a workable compromise. Make the cost of the ride only a tiny fraction of that to park downtown, but high enough not to be seen as worthless....

I have high hopes for the streetcar here in OKC and can't wait to use it, but I also know there are certain elements out there that are just waiting (hoping) for it to fail. This article is being tossed around by those people. I'm sure our streetcar committee has studied the successes and failures in other cities and have tried to plan our operation with lessons learned in mind.


U.S. Cities Spend $1.2 Billion on Streetcars to Nowhere (http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-12-15/streetcars-to-nowhere-roam-u-s-cities-after-stimulus-largess)

The down-and-out men wait for the streetcars on Atlanta’s Edgewood Avenue, especially when the weather turns bad. The blue, blocky, two-car trains, installed at a cost of $98 million to revive downtown, have become a de facto rolling homeless shelter.
The 2.7 mile (4 kilometer) Atlanta loop, which turns one this month, is among more than a dozen streetcar projects rolled out in American cities since 2009 and four in the past year. They are the product of cities’ desire for hipper downtowns and a resurgent U.S. streetcar industry, and are paid for with $1.2 billion from President Barack Obama’s economic stimulus program, other federal sources and matching state and local dollars.
While streetcars in Portland, Oregon and Seattle have succeeded -- measured by high ridership and nearby investment -- others have struggled with cost overruns, construction delays, traffic snarls and accidents as drivers adjust to the giant machines gliding down the middle of roads. Seen as starter legs of more expansive systems, the nascent lines fuel criticism that the money should have been spent on existing public transit rather than going to carry people short distances slowly.

Does "existing public transit" do something else, differently, above what streetcars do? The reality is that in every single city, that city's first streetcar actually advances the way public transit carries people. Yes, longer, faster, but also more intimately. Essentially everything you want in a lover, encapsulated in a streetcar named desire. (okay moving on from that..)

Atlanta's streetcar was specifically designed to go through a low-income pocket of downtown ATL called Five Points, and to connect from there into a southside neighborhood that was significant for MLK history. So for Bloomberg to call it a rolling homeless shelter doesn't embarrass the streetcar as much as it should embarrass themselves for showing their true colors, not just with transit, highlighting the cultural sensitivity void that apparently exists at Bloomberg. It really is kind of hard to step in it like that unless you're A, really trying; or B, really that ignorant.

Most cities do not focus their streetcar project specifically on issues of equity. Planners everywhere are getting wary of these systems as mere "gentrification streetcars," which I view as unfortunate. However, that Atlanta reimagined the demographic that a streetcar could serve, kudos for them. They could have very easily just done a streetcar up and down Peachtree Street to merely whisk stylish businessmen and yuppies between Midtown and Buckhead. It would have density, intermodal connections, farebox recovery, ridership, further TOD potential, and all those metrics we look for. However, Atlanta really wanted to set a standard for how a streetcar can instead help disenfranchised communities. That was their goal, and that is the benchmark against which they should be judged. While Bloomberg wouldn't know better, it sounds like they are succeeding in that goal, just based on the insults that the financial newspaper hurled at the project.

Is there any studies or anything about the cost to ride the streetcar with those failures listed above?

I hope OKC's SC begins as free (1 year or more). We need to break the mold of this city's automobile mentality, and I truly believe the most effective way to do that is to present this option as free. Then when it (hopefully) shows success with high ridership, then introduce a fee plan that is justified by said previous success.

Yes. It's more about frequency than fare. Opposite of Bloomberg, Citylab is an advocacy machine for equity planning (the school of thought that fixates solely on disenfranchised communities, leaving resource-rich communities to plan and fend for themselves). They did an attack piece based on some solid research on the low ridership issue. All of these streetcars are running at frequencies well below the industry standard. 10-12 minutes is ideal if you want to encourage people to just show up and board.

Overall, U.S. Streetcars Just Aren't Meeting the Standards of Good Transit - CityLab (http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/09/overall-us-streetcars-just-arent-meeting-the-standards-of-good-transit/379516/)

What Citylab neglected to mention is that conservative leadership in many of these cities is intentionally sabotaging the streetcars by forcing these awful frequencies. They're at it again in Cincinnati, where the mayor has staked his political career on the streetcar's failure, and now wants to "help the streetcar" with a "helpful suggestion" that it should lower risk of operating losses with awful frequencies, starting after the morning rush hour, and only ramping up service for Reds games.

As far as I am concerned, the equity liberals and Wall Street neocons are both in bed together on this issue, both too idiotic to realize whose head is on the other pillow. Anyone who masquerades as a liberal planner and opposes rail transit on principle should raise a red flag immediately. They either aren't all that serious about the urban thing, or they really are that ignorant. Which sadly, happens.. a lot.

Citylab is a special little capsule of blissful ignorance. Those people can't even see the end of their nose, let alone what is happening on the ground; their critiques of rail transit make me wonder if they have ever ridden a city bus, let alone a streetcar. These people on both sides exist in an alternate reality where the sky is falling because the classes are mixing and transit has been reinvented. Seriously, anything written by Matthew Yglesias, Eric Jaffe, Brentin Mock, and any of their shockingly ignorant ilk, you can pretty much just ignore like we would Joel Kotkin or Joel Osteen.

Spartan, I see that you posted this at 4:20. That was some seriously good $hit.

Seattle used to have a Downtown Ride Free zone, where any bus would be free in that area. How this worked was riders would enter the bus downtown and would only pay as they depart from the bus if their stop was outside of downtown. For trips entirely within downtown, the ride is completely free. For trips that began outside of downtown, you pay as normal as you enter but could ride free for any other bus once you got downtown.

I think OKC could do this with not just its buses but also with the Streetcar, let it be free in the Downtown OKC defined zones: 13th to the River, Lincoln to Classen. The Ride Free zone built significant critical mass in Seattle (they don't do it anymore, don't need it anymore) I think the same could be a huge hit in OKC while also maintaining transit legitimacy of the Streetcar and downtown bus network. ...

I think OKC had( has?) a free bus route that rolls through a Downtown/Bricktown loop.

Yes, Rt 50 is free, though the route is no longer optimal for where the good stuff is downtown, needs a tweak (I've submitted a ticket to Embark).

I think OKC had( has?) a free bus route that rolls through a Downtown/Bricktown loop.

That's when you know something has failed ^


Spartan, I see that you posted this at 4:20. That was some seriously good $hit.

Not to be a buzz kill, but it was 5:20 for me.

Not sure I follow you Spartan. It's been a few years since the last time my lovely and I had occasion to use the DT route on a date evening when the footsies want a break after a bit of strolling around. Long enough i wasn't going to assume the free route was still offered.

We spend most of our evenings in Norman these days. Some dining out, but many, many more evenings are stay in nights. Our youngest has been back in town a while now. We really enjoy the company of his delightful lass and he when they are not off with their friends. Our daughter and family, now four four g-babies strong, are now back from WY since August o this year.

Checking out new places and existing transportation options are simply far less interesting than they used to be. We much prefer an evening of family visiting these days.

These transportation threads are kind of confusing, with posts about streetcars, commuter rail, etc. basically appearing in all of them. Hopefully I have picked the correct thread.

So anyway, I am wondering if a map of the train route for the system being built as part of MAPS 3 has ever been published? If so, can someone link to it?

Just wondering if we know yet where the lines are being dropped.

Not sure I follow you Spartan. It's been a few years since the last time my lovely and I had occasion to use the DT route on a date evening when the footsies want a break after a bit of strolling around. Long enough i wasn't going to assume the free route was still offered.

We spend most of our evenings in Norman these days. Some dining out, but many, many more evenings are stay in nights. Our youngest has been back in town a while now. We really enjoy the company of his delightful lass and he when they are not off with their friends. Our daughter and family, now four four g-babies strong, are now back from WY since August o this year.

Checking out new places and existing transportation options are simply far less interesting than they used to be. We much prefer an evening of family visiting these days.

Not sure why you're back pedaling and discrediting yourself, and having an amazing family (congrats) is certainly nothing to diminish what you know about your surroundings! The downtown trolley loop is a known failure. I was just building off of what you said, if something is known to be free, but not known as to whether it still exists - it probably isn't succeeding.

These transportation threads are kind of confusing, with posts about streetcars, commuter rail, etc. basically appearing in all of them. Hopefully I have picked the correct thread.

So anyway, I am wondering if a map of the train route for the system being built as part of MAPS 3 has ever been published? If so, can someone link to it?

Just wondering if we know yet where the lines are being dropped.

Here is a link but it could still be tweeked some because of the latest location change for the convention center project.

http://www.okc.gov/maps3/projects/M3%20streetcar%20route%20framework.pdf

Thanks, I assume "future" means "we have no idea when this part of the line is being built," but what about "phase 2?" That sounds more imminent. What is that all about?

Questor, the route in red is what is funded and in engineering at this moment via the MAPS3 funding.

Phase 2 is not approved or funded, but is a likely candidate to be a future phase.

Within the current MAPS 3 phase, are two separate phases with the south loop and north loop being separate construction phases of the same "Phase I" system.

I hope that helps, and maybe Urban Pioneer can chime in with a better explanation.

One in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I thought both phases 1 and 2 were included in maps funding?

Don't even think about "Phase 2" as it relates on those old maps. Remember, our committee was handed a huge curve ball with the Convention Center relocation. We are in the process of examining costs and programability options to serve Core 2 Shore, MAPS 3 Park, and new Convention Center location.

Over 2/3rds of the route will not change and we are about 65% into the final design process. However, the southernmost 3rd of the route is potentially slated to change.

"Phase 2" is a political construct by the consultants and MAPS 3 staff. It is and should be considered an irrelevant term and instead be considered additional contingency money for the main alignment approved by council and under design.

Thanks for clarifying. Sorry if you said that before. BTW is it fair to say that with CHK troubles that the line up Western will not happen?

Thanks for clarifying. Sorry if you said that before. BTW is it fair to say that with CHK troubles that the line up Western will not happen?

I don't think that future streetcar expansion will really be affected by Chesapeake in any form up to the north.

The greatest influence as to whether the streetcar will be expanded in the near future will be if expansions are included in the 2016 General Obligation Bond vote or theoretical 2017 MAPS 4 vote. Of course MAPS 4 could involve a Regional Transit Authority vote as well and the plan that you are referring to that calls for northward and southern expansions along Classen to 63rd (Chesapeake/Classen Curve) and Walker to SW 25th (Capitol Hill) are part of that RTA initiative.

Federal Funding apps could also be applicable.

But the most important influences are political in nature. Does a particular Councillor want the streetcar expanded in their Ward? Are they receiving an organized desire by a certain neighborhood or district such as the Plaza or Uptown? If so, that might influence where expansion occurs.

The other influence can be Tax Increment Financing if a developer makes a plea for expanded streetcar route for economic development purposes. That is also semi-political in nature. Due to the nature of TIF, I suspect that such expansion would occur in a more limited form though that mechanism.

Several of us have thought about hosting a forum through OKC Streetcar and The Modern Transit Project on all of these ideas to help facilitate a discussion about what the possibilities are. Perhaps it could be a joint forum with OKC Talk or something.

Oklahoma City has some districts & areas with unique flavor like Asian District, Classen Curve, Paseo, Plaza, Deep Deuce, Film Row, Bricktown, Adventure District, Midtown, Automobile Alley, Belle Isle, Farmers Market, Capitol Hill, Stockyard City & others. Would be great if we could tie as many of these areas together if and when we expand the street car routes.

Urban Pioneer that's a great idea. Has Pete ever done anything like that before? It seems like a nice fit and something that could generate a lot of visibility for both parties.

I just put up 32 pics from the completed KC streetcar. https://greenlakebluecity.wordpress.com/2016/01/17/kc-streetcar-pics/

I'd copy more into this thread if I hadn't gone all-Mac recently, which has brought me back to computer illiteracy.

https://greenlakebluecity.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/img_3057.jpg?w=700&h=&crop=1
https://greenlakebluecity.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/img_3013.jpg?w=700&h=&crop=1
https://greenlakebluecity.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/img_3025.jpg?w=700&h=&crop=1
https://greenlakebluecity.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/img_3041.jpg?w=700&h=&crop=1
https://greenlakebluecity.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/img_3049.jpg?w=700&h=&crop=1
https://greenlakebluecity.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/img_3047.jpg?w=700&h=&crop=1

It covers a pretty small slice of KC, but it's a really good start.

http://www.archpaper.com/uploads/kc_streetcar_03.jpg

Great pics!

https://www.facebook.com/okcstreetcar/photos/a.203752873100965.51616.203749819767937/647555182054063/?type=3&theater



Big news today as we unveil a proposal to expand the streetcar system to better serve the MAPS 3 Park and relocated Convention Center!

Welcome both Red and Blue rail lines with seven minute frequency at what will be a new civic heart to our growing OKC!

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12592321_647555182054063_5756254274702122250_n.jpg ?oh=d66a054a1cf38a897b792bb5dfd8e7b5&oe=573D15B0

nm

Yeah, that's about what I was imagining.

One interesting thing about the new line is that we are putting it in a dedicated transit just north of the new boulevard adjacent to the sidewalk. I would expect that this particular stop might be a 'grand stop' with plenty of room for pedestrian interaction. We are essentially treating this two block section as a light rail alignment and eliminating physical interaction with ODOT's' Boulevard.

I like it. FYI, "Future Convention Center" and "Future Convention Hotel" were added but some of "Future Hotel" markers need to be changed because they're actual hotels now.

What is our projected ridership?