Sounds like a fun church. Nevertheless, ABC-3 would be rendered illegal simply by their presence, no matter how liberal the congregation is. Doesn't matter; cafeboeuf has already pointed out that ABC-3 is zoned out of the neighborhood anyway, so the point is moot.

I'm a zoning debbie downer. :)

Heard that Empire Slice is supposed to open next Friday, August 9th. Not sure of the time. Now, I just wish Danny Bowien would open up a Mission Chinese in that Upholstery store next door.

Excuse my ignorance but what is ABC-3?

Excuse my ignorance but what is ABC-3?

ABC-3 is a use unit classification (what you can do on a property) that allows all alcohol to be sold for consumption on site. ABC-2 allows all alcohol as well, but only if you receive more than 50% of revenue from food. ABC-3 is essentially a bar (club, etc.), and ABC-2 would be a full service restaurant. ABC-1 allows sale of 3.2% alcohol (cheap beer, essentially) on site.

ABC-3 is a use unit classification (what you can do on a property) that allows all alcohol to be sold for consumption on site. ABC-2 allows all alcohol as well, but only if you receive more than 50% of revenue from food. ABC-3 is essentially a bar (club, etc.), and ABC-2 would be a full service restaurant. ABC-1 allows sale of 3.2% alcohol (cheap beer, essentially) on site.

Alright, so I take it this means the Plaza district will never get any true bars? Anything going into that area will have to be ABC-2 meaning it must be primarily a restaurant?

According to cafeboef - and he is an actual authority on the matter - that is a correct assessment, but he is saying that also suits the Plaza folks just fine, as they are not wanting ABC-3 in the neighborhood.

My point was that if they were open to or seeking ABC-3 places they would be unintentionally rendered illegal by the location of the church. I think that is a law that needs to be addressed. It was done so previously to mitigate the unintended effect ACM@UCO had in Bricktown, but lawmakers only addressed the "school" part of the law, and not the "church" part. Even then they gave the school yes/no power.

Under the current law a storefront church could move into a place like Midtown or Bricktown and effectively derail all efforts to bring a true bar or a nightclub into those areas.

Alright, so I take it this means the Plaza district will never get any true bars? Anything going into that area will have to be ABC-2 meaning it must be primarily a restaurant?

That is correct. The only full bar in the area is Scorecards Sports Bar which is right around the corner from Bad Granny's and the only reason it is allowed to be there is because it was Grandfathered in.

I never knew there was such strict regulation on opening bars/nightclubs in OKC. That would explain why most trendy nightlife destinations here are primarily restaurants. Does Midtown and uptown have the same restrictions?

I never knew there was such strict regulation on opening bars/nightclubs in OKC. That would explain why most trendy nightlife destinations here are primarily restaurants. Does Midtown and uptown have the same restrictions?

I don't think it is all over OKC, I know that particular regulation is in place in the Plaza District. Obviously BT doesn't have it because there are restaurant/bars and just bars in that area.

0% chance Saint's derives 50% of it's sales from food. Does that put them at risk of losing their ABC-2?

0% chance Saint's derives 50% of it's sales from food. Does that put them at risk of losing their ABC-2?

I read somewhere that 3.2 beer is considered a non-alcoholic drink legally. I wonder if they can factor that into their food total. Many people will always order a Bud or a Coors no matter what.

That is correct. The only full bar in the area is Scorecards Sports Bar which is right around the corner from Bad Granny's and the only reason it is allowed to be there is because it was Grandfathered in.
I'm pretty sure Scorecards is a beer bar, that is, 3.2 beers only with no mixed beverage licensing. I've only been in once (in the past year though), and I'm 99% sure it is ABC-1.

I read somewhere that 3.2 beer is considered a non-alcoholic drink legally. I wonder if they can factor that into their food total. Many people will always order a Bud or a Coors no matter what.

They don't serve that garbage at Saints.

I never knew there was such strict regulation on opening bars/nightclubs in OKC. That would explain why most trendy nightlife destinations here are primarily restaurants. Does Midtown and uptown have the same restrictions?
The 300' (I think) cushion around churches and schools preventing ABC-3 is statewide. It was modified recently to allow schools to permit bars within that radius, if so inclined. This was specifically so that ACM@UCO could give permission to bars to located in Bricktown. However, no such provision was made for churches. If a church was staunchly against bars, they could open a storefront near a bar district and absolutely kill it, provided they could find a willing landlord. Also, even if a church (like the one in the photos) was accepting, there is still no legal mechanism that would allow them to say "it's OK, that bar can locate here," like a school can.

What cafeboef is saying is that there is a specific overlay in Plaza that forbids ABC-3, and that the Plaza district folks are cool with that. I can understand some of the reasons this might be the case, as it controls the tenant mix a little more closely in an area that is closely surrounded by houses, and an area that is still on the rebound. They want to encourage places like Saints and Mule without having a rogue bar or nightclub pop up. That said, a great bar like Grandad's would apparently be impossible in Plaza.

Bricktown has no specific restrictions like this, and I am unaware of whether Midtown does, but doubt it. The church thing (or an non-accepting school) could still be a problem for someone in these areas, though.

The 300' (I think) cushion around churches and schools preventing ABC-3 is statewide. It was modified recently to allow schools to permit bars within that radius, if so inclined. This was specifically so that ACM@UCO could give permission to bars to located in Bricktown. However, no such provision was made for churches. If a church was staunchly against bars, they could open a storefront near a bar district and absolutely kill it, provided they could find a willing landlord. Also, even if a church (like the one in the photos) was accepting, there is still no legal mechanism that would allow them to say "it's OK, that bar can locate here," like a school can.

What cafeboef is saying is that there is a specific overlay in Plaza that forbids ABC-3, and that the Plaza district folks are cool with that. I can understand some of the reasons this might be the case, as it controls the tenant mix a little more closely in an area that is closely surrounded by houses, and an area that is still on the rebound. They want to encourage places like Saints and Mule without having a rogue bar or nightclub pop up. That said, a great bar like Grandad's would apparently be impossible in Plaza.

Bricktown has no specific restrictions like this, and I am unaware of whether Midtown does, but doubt it. The church thing (or an non-accepting school) could still be a problem for someone in these areas, though.

We should start banning churches. They should have to be licensed.

We should start banning churches. They should have to be licensed.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/4168601080_39b1f9e79d.jpg

We should start banning churches. They should have to be licensed.

In many cases, zoning requires churches to go through a Special Use Permit process, which can be almost as rigorous.

I'm wondering how the bar service at the theater fits into this. I'm sure it is very legal but it must have some kind of different regulation governing it.

I'm wondering how the bar service at the theater fits into this. I'm sure it is very legal but it must have some kind of different regulation governing it.

The only time there is a full bar, it is being catered. All the other times it is beer and wine only. That might explain it, but I am not sure.

Classen Ten Penn neighborhood stepping up it's identity:

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/562010_565283033564004_531045711_n.jpg

Classen Ten Penn neighborhood stepping up it's identity:

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/562010_565283033564004_531045711_n.jpg

That's great. If I were a first time home buyer, that's where I'd be looking.

That's great. If I were a first time home buyer, that's where I'd be looking.

Cool!!!!!

I knew there would be skinny jeans involved.

I saw a tweet from the Plaza District that the Guatemalan grocery store on the SW corner of NW 16th and Indiana will be open tomorrow. I will try to swing by and get some pictures and a Mexican coke if I have time.

Haha...if this were 1965...I knew there would be bellbottom jeans involved.

I saw a tweet from the Plaza District that the Guatemalan grocery store on the SW corner of NW 16th and Indiana will be open tomorrow. I will try to swing by and get some pictures and a Mexican coke if I have time.

That is http://www.okctalk.com/restaurants-bars/35537-antojitos-guatemaltecos.html.

But I think they are changing their name to Chiltepes Latin Cuisine.

went there last night, had a great time, Empire pizza is delicious and I love the pink elephant for some reason.

I should add that I did not take a picture of the pink elephant, for some reason, and I wish now that I had.

Just heard there will be a new pub going into the Plaza District.

Hope to provide more details very soon.

1. Saints
2. The Mule
3. Empire
4. New Pub

Plus Scorecard (hole-in-the-wall).


We may finally have a real, concentrated bar district on our hands.

I thought Empire was a pizza joint?

I thought Empire was a pizza joint?

Well, it's a restaurant / bar, with very strong bar activity.

The Mule is very similar.

It will be difficult to have a full-on bar district in OKC simply because of the laws preventing pure bars/clubs from opening within 300 ft of a church, school, or residence. Restaurant/bar with a strong emphasis on drinks is the way it will have to be done.

Well, it's a restaurant / bar, with very strong bar activity.

The Mule is very similar.

Huh, I did not know that. Still never been inside since we all tried to go that one night back in October.

It will be difficult to have a full-on bar district in OKC simply because of the laws preventing pure bars/clubs from opening within 300 ft of a church, school, or residence. Restaurant/bar with a strong emphasis on drinks is the way it will have to be done.

Do Tulsa, Norman have different laws than OKC? Because both have vibrant bar districts.

Glad to see OKC getting some bar concentration at the Plaza. Some other districts are pointing this directions also. This has been a weak point for OKC and these districts are making strides... Great to see.

23rd looks to be not far behind in creating a bar-hopping district.

They should have critical mass by this summer.

Don't forget that Urban Wineworks sells food. Not sure about other meals but they definitely serve full brunch on Sundays (my point being there's a full kitchen).

Do Tulsa, Norman have different laws than OKC? Because both have vibrant bar districts.

Glad to see OKC getting some bar concentration at the Plaza. Some other districts are pointing this directions also. This has been a weak point for OKC and these districts are making strides... Great to see.

Pretty sure its a state law. At the very least it should change that you cant open within 300ft if its owned by church or school. That prevents some church youth group or something from leasing space next to, say, Big Truck Tacos and throwing a wrench in everything. Kinda like UCO ACM did in Bricktown. Which luckily was ok since they changed a law for them specifically.

Pretty sure its a state law. At the very least it should change that you cant open within 300ft if its owned by church or school. That prevents some church youth group or something from leasing space next to, say, Big Truck Tacos and throwing a wrench in everything. Kinda like UCO ACM did in Bricktown. Which luckily was ok since they changed a law for them specifically.

Big Truck Tacos would be fine because they are a restaurant/bar. Establishments that serve alcohol without food are the ones affected. Right now, the only place in OKC you find those en masse is Bricktown. All of the neighborhood districts are primarily or exclusively served by restaurant/bars.

It's an absurd law anyway.

What is the problem they are trying to solve? That kids are going to be sneaking in for a cold one on their way home from school? That church-goers will be seduced by the devil's nectar? That people who go to bars are social miscreants that shouldn't mingle with children and the truly righteous??

It's an absurd law anyway.

What is the problem they are trying to solve? That kids are going to be sneaking in for a cold one on their way home from school? That church-goers will be seduced by the devil's nectar? That people who go to bars are social miscreants that shouldn't mingle with children and the truly righteous??

Like our liquor laws, they are a relic of another time. However, I think those laws would be more difficult to change if put to a vote by the people than the liquor laws at present time. If changed however it could greatly improve nightlife here.

Just heard there will be a new pub going into the Plaza District.

My understanding was that all available spots in the Plaza had been leased already. Is this a new construction, or is something going away to make space for a new pub?

My understanding was that all available spots in the Plaza had been leased already. Is this a new construction, or is something going away to make space for a new pub?

A building is being sold and redeveloped.

Big Truck Tacos would be fine because they are a restaurant/bar. Establishments that serve alcohol without food are the ones affected. Right now, the only place in OKC you find those en masse is Bricktown. All of the neighborhood districts are primarily or exclusively served by restaurant/bars.

I meant throwing a wrench in things for the bars opening soon across the street in the rise. A church could lease space somewhere and wouldn't that bring into play the 300ft rule? I'm thinking it should have to be a property owned by a church or school

I meant throwing a wrench in things for the bars opening soon across the street in the rise. A church could lease space somewhere and wouldn't that bring into play the 300ft rule? I'm thinking it should have to be a property owned by a church or school

Do you know if existing bars are grandfathered in were that to happen or would they lose their license?

Existing businesses would not be affected.

Isn't there already some church group leasing space across the street from Big Truck and near the Rise?

There is certainly a church that leases space in the Plaza District as well.

There is certainly a church that leases space in the Plaza District as well.

So far everything in the Plaza district is restaurant/bar. If there is a church across from the Rise I don't know how the planned 80s bar is going to happen.

So far everything in the Plaza district is restaurant/bar. If there is a church across from the Rise I don't know how the planned 80s bar is going to happen.

There isn't a church within 300 feet of the rise in any direction. Not even a strip mall church, the biggest reason that law is so stupid.

There isn't a church within 300 feet of the rise in any direction. Not even a strip mall church, the biggest reason that law is so stupid.

I'm pretty sure there's a church IN the strip mall west of The Rise, north of Big Truck. Someone help me out. I'm going off memory. Maybe they moved, but I'm pretty sure they still have signs up.

There is some sort of church thing in the building just west of the Lyric. The parish or something like that.

It will be difficult to have a full-on bar district in OKC simply because of the laws preventing pure bars/clubs from opening within 300 ft of a church, school, or residence. Restaurant/bar with a strong emphasis on drinks is the way it will have to be done.

I disagree with this and I have no idea why it gets brought up so much. How many bars has anyone been to in their lifetime that aren't open at all during the day serving food?? The only ones I can think of are dedicated night clubs with huge dance floors. Everything else was open at least part of the day and served food. On Mass St. in Lawrence (our biggest bar district), just about every single "bar" was open during the day or at least past 3 or 4 o'clock.

I was in NYC this last week, and while I am in no way trying to act like I am an expert on NYC nightlife (it was my first time there), it seemed like just about every bar or lounge (seemed to be the big thing there) in the areas we walked through were open during the day. Our hotel was in Chelsea so we spent some time at night making our way through the Flatiron, SoHo, Chelsea, and Meatpacking districts in Midtown and Lower Manhattan, and that scenario applies to just about all of them. I don't hear anyone complaining about NYC"s nightlife in those areas because their bars serve food, so I don't see why some are so insistent on acting like OKC can never have a true bar district because of it.

The rule only applies to ABC-3 bars, which do not derive the loosely-enforced 50% gross revenue from food. To my memory, the ONLY licenses like this that have been issued in any of the districts we routinely discuss here are Grandad's and Captain Norm's Dockside Bar. I'm sure there have been one or two others, but very few. In retrospect Skinny Slim's should have been ABC-3, and hope that doesn't cause them problems down the road.

The rest are ABC-2, which essentially means they are RESTAURANTS, which happen to have bars. This is the case with EVERYTHING in Plaza (except Scorecards, which is a 3.2 beer bar). Plaza's zoning doesn't even allow for ABC-3 at all (by choice). As such they (nearly all of the recently-opened "bars" in urban OKC) are completely unaffected by the 300' rule. This whole discussion, in general, is usually a waste of energy and bandwidth.

^

Right, almost every single bar serves food and is open for lunch.

However, in Oklahoma I believe the distinction is that if more than half your revenues come from alcohol, there are different rules.

^

That's the "loosely enforced" rule I was talking about. It's why so many places like Saints exist. Walk in there and tell me that place is a restaurant, and not a bar instead.

McNellie's is another example.

Pete any idea what kind of concept this 4th pub would be?

Where would it go?

I'm told it's a "different type of concept" and will go into a building that is changing hands; there is a signed letter of interest.

Waiting for the sale to close before revealing more, at the wishes of the involved parties.

I'm pretty sure there's a church IN the strip mall west of The Rise, north of Big Truck. Someone help me out. I'm going off memory. Maybe they moved, but I'm pretty sure they still have signs up.

Yes, the paseo apostolic church is in the strip west of it, and it is the biggest part of everything wrong with that stupid law. However, it looks to be at least 300 feet from the edge of the rise, unless they've expanded it to include the old queens beauty supply building.

The rest are ABC-2, which essentially means they are RESTAURANTS, which happen to have bars. This is the case with EVERYTHING in Plaza (except Scorecards, which is a 3.2 beer bar). Plaza's zoning doesn't even allow for ABC-3 at all (by choice). As such they (nearly all of the recently-opened "bars" in urban OKC) are completely unaffected by the 300' rule. This whole discussion, in general, is usually a waste of energy and bandwidth.

Doesn't the 300 ft rule also apply to residences in addition to schools and churches? I was fairly certain it did. If so, that is the biggest problem as it will prevent ABC-3 licenses in mixed-use buildings.

Do Tulsa, Norman have different laws than OKC? Because both have vibrant bar districts.

Glad to see OKC getting some bar concentration at the Plaza. Some other districts are pointing this directions also. This has been a weak point for OKC and these districts are making strides... Great to see.

Same in Norman like what Urbanized was describing... Almost all of the bars are actually pubs that sell quite a lot of food. I think the two things Norman has going for it many other places don't are centralized walkable business districts that are essentially setup perfectly for pubs, and a large demographic base to support them.