First, Western is either OKC's best or 2nd best local, walkable bar scene with it's 3 or 4 bars. I like Western, but just 3 or 4 bars is not much. That's pathetic for a city the size of OKC. I stand by the statement that Tulsa's scene is dramatically better. And I don't care if a place serves food during the day if it's primarily considered a bar at night. Nova is a good example. But there are way more of those in Tulsa anyway - Just in the Brady District Crystal Pistol and Sound Pony both come to mind as bar only places... Anyway, here is the Brady District site (http://www.thebradyartsdistrict.com/map/)- take note of the number of bars near each other: It is vastly superior to anything in OKC. Same with the Blue Dome (http://bluedometulsa.com/index2.php#/home/) and they don't even include Fassler Hall which is a wonderful nearby concept. And I'd still say that Cherry Street and Brookside are both at least equal to anything in OKC.

I love OKC, and there is so much positive momentum in the City, but this is an extremely weak area for OKC if the city is trying to claim it's a "big league city." There is no other major city that lacks these types of areas like OKC does.

Agreed. Little Rock has only the River Market and not much else, but its metro is less than half the size of OKC's. I guess we have to remember that for the longest time OKC was absolutely dismal for its size and played more on the level of Little Rock, Jackson MS, and Knoxville than its true peer cities. This city was neglected and haunted by an inferiority complex. In the past ten years much progress has been made to change that but there is still more to do. This is one of the areas where OKC needs improvement. I strongly believe that it will come within the next few years unless the local economy tanks.

A lot of people say the conservative nature of OKC is to blame, but Louisville is a city with very similar demographics, income, and creative class to OKC and its fast becoming a magnet for young professionals because of its nightlife and sophistication. If it can be done in Louisville, it can be done in OKC.

Even though some of you don't like Bricktown, you can't just act like it doesn't exist.

It is, in fact, a huge bar/club district and bigger than anything in Tulsa or most cities of OKC's size.

People from OKC are very quick to discount Bricktown but people from other cities often point to it and say, "Why can't WE have something like this?"


The grass is always greener.

First, Western is either OKC's best or 2nd best local, walkable bar scene with it's 3 or 4 bars. I like Western, but just 3 or 4 bars is not much. That's pathetic for a city the size of OKC. I stand by the statement that Tulsa's scene is dramatically better. And I don't care if a place serves food during the day if it's primarily considered a bar at night. Nova is a good example. But there are way more of those in Tulsa anyway - Just in the Brady District Crystal Pistol and Sound Pony both come to mind as bar only places... Anyway, here is the Brady District site (http://www.thebradyartsdistrict.com/map/)- take note of the number of bars near each other: It is vastly superior to anything in OKC. Same with the Blue Dome (http://bluedometulsa.com/index2.php#/home/) and they don't even include Fassler Hall which is a wonderful nearby concept. And I'd still say that Cherry Street and Brookside are both at least equal to anything in OKC.

I love OKC, and there is so much positive momentum in the City, but this is an extremely weak area for OKC if the city is trying to claim it's a "big league city." There is no other major city that lacks these types of areas like OKC does.

Western has VZD's, Nova, Sipango, and the Lobby all within a 2 block area. Plus some restaurants that serve drinks at night in a 4 block area.

Frankly (as Pete points out) Bricktown wins the density/walkability argument over Western and anything in Tulsa, so this argument is pretty much moot.

This thread is about Plaza Court, so I'm not turning this into a pissing match between Tulsa and OKC. We will just have to agree to disagree (although I agree with you that it wouldn't hurt for a few nicer places in OKC).

Even though some of you don't like Bricktown, you can't just act like it doesn't exist.

It is, in fact, a huge bar/club district and bigger than anything in Tulsa or most cities of OKC's size.

People from OKC are very quick to discount Bricktown but people from other cities often point to it and say, "Why can't WE have something like this?"


The grass is always greener.

I'm guilty of this. Bricktown gets so much scorn on here, yet I've taken lots of people from out of town and they all love that area. Its funny because Bricktown is pretty much the measuring stick of any entertainment district in this region yet the way people trash it you would think it was a dump.

The Purple Bar has become one of my favorite places in the city and I just discovered it a few months ago.

LOL, it's kind of silly to say we have too many irons in the fire. There is not one entity controlling all of the districts in OKC that could accomplish what you want. The districts in Tulsa that people like aren't that way because anyone tried to make sure that they hit a critical mass before some other area was developed.

It's not that we have entities controlling the districts but entrepreneurs choose where to put their new haunts. The McNellies Group has a real attraction to the Brady and thus they help pack the district. If nothing else he developers try to make sure the fewer districts hit critical mass.

OKC's bar scene can be a bit divey at times. No doubt a dive bar can hit the spot sometimes, but it would be nice to go to a place where I didn't have to inhale cigarette smoke.

I will say that Western Avenue is quite dense and walkable and I and many other people have gone up and down it on a night out.

I also find the notion that the bar scene in Tulsa as "dramatically better" pretty laughable, and I'm in the coveted young professional demographic. Please name one bar in Tulsa that also doesn't front as a restaurant during the day (the only place I can think of is the Max Retropub).

Western doesn't even have uniform sidewalks. I really wish the streetscape initiative would consider a way to better link Western to the Classen Triangle area. It's walking distance arguably, just lacks a clear pathway.

Western doesn't even have uniform sidewalks. I really wish the streetscape initiative would consider a way to better link Western to the Classen Triangle area. It's walking distance arguably, just lacks a clear pathway.Hey technically anything is walking distance. lol I walked from North Edmond to downtown OKC before.

Bricktown is tops in terms of a viable, walkable bar scene. Through the lens of a more perfect world, Western is incredibly disjointed. It needs to have more flow...If everything from 40th to 44th were Restaurant/Bar + a particular type of retail (say something like clothing or furniture or things related to the spice shop), that 4 block segment would be a resounding success.

The Plaza, because of it's layout, would be the best bar district in the city if it gained 4 or 5 bars between McKinley and Indiana, but that would require residential being rezoned for restaurant/bar (and the same thing could be said of the "Classen Triangle"...and really will likely be necessary to connect Western/Classen Triangle)

The most rational place for focus on a budding Bar district is 2 or so block radius @ 10th/Walker. With the bar going in at the top of the Osler and hopefully the biergarten concept at the old auto shop at 10th/Hudson, 4 more bars in the area would make it a great night time district. It also helps that the Hospital is right there, which is a high employment facility. It's also close to Deep Deuce, and the Edge will be right there, I'd LOVE to see MidTown focus on getting 4 to 8 more bars/pubs near the roundabout in the next 5 years.

Since we often compare OKC to Louisville here - I see Bricktown as our still developing version of 4th Street Live; and Western as our very compact version of Bardstown Road.

4th Street Live! :: Home (http://www.4thstlive.com/)

And a couple photos from Bardstown Road.....

31153116

Since we often compare OKC to Louisville here - I see Bricktown as our still developing version of 4th Street Live; and Western as our very compact version of Bardstown Road.

4th Street Live! :: Home (http://www.4thstlive.com/)

And a couple photos from Bardstown Road.....

31153116

Agreed. Louisville is definitely inspiration for OKC. Their demographics are similar so what works there is pretty likely to work in OKC.

Louisville is about 10-15 years ahead of OKC in my opinion. Its offerings are more akin to that of Charlotte despite being the same size as OKC. OKC today would probably be on the level of Louisville if not for the '80s-90s bust.

Agree that the biggest and most walkable bar district in OKC is Bricktown. How can anyone not agree with that. I'm not wild about the crowds the area draws though. There are one or two bars I think are cool.

Campus Corner in Norman is probably the second most dense cluster of bars in a walkable area in the metro. It's a fun non-threatening crowd. The only drawback is that it is Norman... a weird alternate universe where everything is OU and Greek centric for nine months, and then completely non-existent for the remaining three.

Midtown is probably OKC's best shot at a walkable bar district that attracts the professional crowd. It has a couple of options right now and sounds like that will be growing soon.

Western Avenue is okay, but is it just me or does that area always look run down?? I'm not sure why that is. Also, there are only a handful of true bars there... although I don't really mind that because restaurants like Sushi Neko do have such great ambiance.

Paseo can actually be kind of great on nights in the summer when there's a big turnout during one of their art walks and there's lots of wine sampling going on. Otherwise it's just kind of sad down there.

Hipster Triangle... I just don't get it. It's not walkable, and OKC's concept of hipsters is just weird. Every time I go there all I see are cross-dressers, chain-smoking guys, and girls who desperately wish they were in a bigger city (probably because they are so severely outnumbered by the other two groups). Also, is OKC possibly the only major city left that allows smoking in bars?? I never see that anywhere else anymore.

Plaza District... doesn't really feel like a 'district' to me right now. But I agree it could be something in five or ten years. Realistically ten at OKC's standard pace.

Classen Curve... it just has the one bar. I think. So it's more like driving to that one pub in that one strip mall. Same goes for Memorial.

Deep Deuce, Automobile Alley... maybe one day.

Tulsa's not that much better off as far as quantity and density. But where they make up for it is in better quality of the patrons and bars / bar owners. Visiting a bar there you're more apt to run into people with interests a lot more in line with some of America's largest cities. Business owners there do seem better at keeping their finger on the pulse and knowing which bands of the moment to try and attract to their venues, or what services to offer in a bar in today's world. I never see enough of that here in OKC. A few are trying.

I don't want to discount Bricktown. It's great for visitors, Thunder games, etc. BUT this doesn't change the fact OKC needs a walkable district full of LOCAL, hip bars. Saint's in Plaza is what I'm talking about, not Bricktown's places like Coyote Ugly. This isn't a Tulsa/OKC pissing match, but in this one area OKC has a lot to learn from Tulsa. I was just in Tulsa visiting family and friends and the Brady District has improved dramatically from the last time I was there. There are literally 10-15 high quality local bars (and new restaurants, a hotel, residential, a great urban park) within a couple blocks of each other. OKC has nothing comparable. If OKC could catch up in this area it would be great for the City.

I don't want to discount Bricktown. It's great for visitors, Thunder games, etc. BUT this doesn't change the fact OKC needs a walkable district full of LOCAL, hip bars. Saint's in Plaza is what I'm talking about, not Bricktown's places like Coyote Ugly. This isn't a Tulsa/OKC pissing match, but in this one area OKC has a lot to learn from Tulsa. I was just in Tulsa visiting family and friends and the Brady District has improved dramatically from the last time I was there. There are literally 10-15 high quality local bars (and new restaurants, a hotel, residential, a great urban park) within a couple blocks of each other. OKC has nothing comparable. If OKC could catch up in this area it would be great for the City.

Agreed. This is something OKC needs that pretty much all other cities of comparable size have. I've always wondered how Tulsa, being smaller, seems to outdo OKC in so many areas, this being one of them. Only since the arrival of the Thunder has the momentum really shifted in OKC's favor. Young professionals look for these things when trying to decide where to move or whether to stay around after college or move away so its good for the city as a whole to have them. Don't get me wrong, I am pro-OKC all the way, but I am simply stating the facts.

This has been discussed on City-Data forum and most people seem to blame the conservative/religious nature of OKC but I don't buy that at all.

This has been discussed on City-Data forum and most people seem to blame the conservative/religious nature of OKC but I don't buy that at all.

OKC is hardly more religious or conservative than Tulsa so that has nothing to do with it at all.

OKC is hardly more religious or conservative than Tulsa so that has nothing to do with it at all.

I think it'll take a group of entrepreneurs singularly focused on one area that can lobby police, code enforcement, traffic changes if needed and the ability to promote it well. Even among fellow recent OCU alums, the Plaza is a mystery. There can be two of those groups, The Blue Dome and The Brady have matured quite well next to each other. I would say Midtown and the Plaza are in the best place momentum wise to grow "local" bar districts.

I think it'll take a group of entrepreneurs singularly focused on one area that can lobby police, code enforcement, traffic changes if needed and the ability to promote it well. Even among fellow recent OCU alums, the Plaza is a mystery. There can be two of those groups, The Blue Dome and The Brady have matured quite well next to each other. I would say Midtown and the Plaza are in the best place momentum wise to grow "local" bar districts.

There can be many more than two. Tulsa has Brady, Blue Dome, Cherry St, Brookside and is a much smaller city than OKC, that being said, the city is much more dense than OKC. There are no empty pockets anywhere from 1st to 71st and riverside to HW 169.

Also, greenwood will probably emerge next for Tulsa, as well as further river development.

The Pearl District at 6th and Peoria is already starting to emerge. There's a nice little art bar and The Phoenix, which is a fantastic coffee/bar/deli place.

Noticed the Chasin' Tail pet store near NW 16 and Blackwelder is out-of-business. Went there a couple of times during Plaza events (with our dogs). The staff was very friendly and the shop done nicely. However, both times we visited we noticed live tiny critters in the 'gourmet' dog treats they were selling - so we never patronized them.

Noticed the Chasin' Tail pet store near NW 16 and Blackwelder is out-of-business. Went there a couple of times during Plaza events (with our dogs). The staff was very friendly and the shop done nicely. However, both times we visited we noticed live tiny critters in the 'gourmet' dog treats they were selling - so we never patronized them.

It has been replaced by The Salvage Room -- Oklahoma City (http://www.thesalvageroomokc.com/test/)

The soft opening is tomorrow night.

This is kind of short notice, but...

http://okc.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/ufoREDposter-590x763.jpg


Yep, tonight at the Istvan Gallery (https://www.facebook.com/Istvan.Gallery)
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/2478_56232572029_8137879_n.jpg


Brought to you by the United Filmmakers of Oklahoma (UFO)



UFO is an expanding group of directors, writers, actors, artists, producers, crew people and more who come together for the sole purpose of creating independent films.
Future plans include two independent features to be shot in Oklahoma and a variety of diverse film projects later this year.
All skill levels are welcome to join UFO.



More info here:
OKC 356: #3 United Filmmakers Showcase - OKC.NET (http://okc.net/2013/02/14/okc-356-3-united-filmmakers-showcase)

I'm thinking of buying a home in the Plaza District and wanted the crowd-sourced opinion of the people here. It's a relatively nice house on 15th, but it's surrounded by some not so nice houses, as I'm sure you can imagine for that area. I've been hearing how this area is up and coming, which looks to be true right on 16th street, but I'm seeing little evidence of it on the housing front south of 16th. I've also been told by several friends who live in Gatewood or Miller to absolutely avoid the area because of the crime (one of my friends who lived on 15th had her house broken into twice in two months a couple years ago, so she moved).

Do you guys have any opinions as to the future of this area? I'm really hoping the development and rejuvenation right on 16th starts spreading south because I think that area could be really great.

It seems North of 16th has better prospects for the next 5 to 10 years for sure, but if you're going to hold onto the house long term, south of 16th probably has more growth potential.

I would think 15th will see growth sooner rather than later since it's so close to the Plaza, but it is going to take a little bit of time.

This is kind of short notice, but...

http://okc.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/ufoREDposter-590x763.jpg


Yep, tonight at the Istvan Gallery (https://www.facebook.com/Istvan.Gallery)
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/2478_56232572029_8137879_n.jpg


Brought to you by the United Filmmakers of Oklahoma (UFO)




More info here:
OKC 356: #3 United Filmmakers Showcase - OKC.NET (http://okc.net/2013/02/14/okc-356-3-united-filmmakers-showcase)

That looks like it would have been fun. Please give us more advance notice the next time something like this is planned.

I'm thinking of buying a home in the Plaza District and wanted the crowd-sourced opinion of the people here. It's a relatively nice house on 15th, but it's surrounded by some not so nice houses, as I'm sure you can imagine for that area. I've been hearing how this area is up and coming, which looks to be true right on 16th street, but I'm seeing little evidence of it on the housing front south of 16th. I've also been told by several friends who live in Gatewood or Miller to absolutely avoid the area because of the crime (one of my friends who lived on 15th had her house broken into twice in two months a couple years ago, so she moved).

Do you guys have any opinions as to the future of this area? I'm really hoping the development and rejuvenation right on 16th starts spreading south because I think that area could be really great.

Burglaries are fairly common throughout OKC. It's necessary to get a dog and an alarm system and solid doors and locks no matter what neighborhood you choose to live in.

You have to decide for yourself what your level of comfort is. if you're willing to move into a true urban frontier, you will reap the most benefits on your investment long term -- provided the area eventually gentrifies. I'm not familiar with the precise block of 15th you're looking at, but the closer to the Plaza the better, in my opinion.

Years ago, I remember parts of Jefferson Park were very sketchy. There were gang members wearing colors driving through the area, pulling drive bys, discharging their weapons, and just flat out trying to intimidate you (it usually worked). There were homicides and open-air crack deals right over by where Cheever's is now. Now look how much it has changed. People bought houses there for a song and now they're worth substantially more money.

Classen Ten Penn is a neighborhood that will take years (or even a decade or two) to gentrify, but there will be areas of more immediate gentrification, and those areas will abut the Plaza District. Don't be frightened off by your friend's experience -- that could have happened in multiple nabes in OKC that most of us would consider "safe."

Also, remember that you can make changes to deter burglaries by increasing the security (i.e. making it more difficult to enter), adding more lighting to deter people from even entering your yard at night, and having an alarm that will sound if they come in. Those things will are all preventative. But at the end of the day, if someone really wants your stuff, they are probably going to get it.

I'm thinking of buying a home in the Plaza District and wanted the crowd-sourced opinion of the people here. It's a relatively nice house on 15th, but it's surrounded by some not so nice houses, as I'm sure you can imagine for that area. I've been hearing how this area is up and coming, which looks to be true right on 16th street, but I'm seeing little evidence of it on the housing front south of 16th. I've also been told by several friends who live in Gatewood or Miller to absolutely avoid the area because of the crime (one of my friends who lived on 15th had her house broken into twice in two months a couple years ago, so she moved).

Do you guys have any opinions as to the future of this area? I'm really hoping the development and rejuvenation right on 16th starts spreading south because I think that area could be really great.

Years ago I lived in that area and even had rent houses with a partner in the surrounding neighborhood.

The reality is the area has been severely crime-ridden for a very long time - burglaries, prostitution, drug crimes, gangs, etc.

Will it revive at some point - probably. But I honestly don't see the area south of 16th getting noticeably better for a very long time (10+ years at least). We looked there again before buying and decided it just wasn't worth it.

The Plaza area is nice to walk, shop, and patronize, but I doubt you'd find yourself walking the dog, jogging, riding a bike, etc. on any of the surrounding streets (especially to the south, or making friends with too many of your neighbors).

When I did live in the area some renters I had were broken into, but I never was. I had two attempts, but both times they fled as soon as the alarm went off. My only renters that suffered from theft were those who did not have alarms that they used or left things outside or cars not in the garage.

What I hated though was both times the would-be burglars with my home kicked in the back door prior to the alarm going off. While they stole nothing, I had to totally replace the back door and door jams both times.

That's when I moved to a bit more deterrence that I use to this day.

I know you didn't ask specifically about burglary deterrence, but here are the things we do and have used over the years.

Some will say this entire effort is overkill, but we find it unobtrusive and its prevented a single break-in from happening (or even attempts) and we continued to live in a crime ridden area until this year.
1.) Motion sensors around our property (we have 8 of these covering the entire property). You get an audible tone whenever someone comes onto your property. Not only does it alert you to someone's presence, but often when someone walks up to your door they too hear the buzz and know you've been alerted. When we go out of town we leave the receiver with our neighbor and just turn a couple of sensors on. Amazon.com: Chamberlain CWA2000 Wireless Motion Alert: Camera & Photo (http://www.amazon.com/Chamberlain-CWA2000-Wireless-Motion-Alert/dp/B002ISVJL6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361187175&sr=8-1&keywords=driveway+motion+sensor+chamberlin)

2.) Motion activated flood lights with built-in camera and audio alert. We have these over our driveway and back porch. Ours is a different brand and also utilizes 'the cloud' to backup video footage and streams live to my smartphone and has battery backup. I really like these! Someone walks up to driveway at night and it announces, "You're trespassing!" Plus lights them up and takes video of them and alerts me via a text message. Also great to keep your cars or yard decoration safe(er). Ours has a remote to turn them off and on (less annoying when coming and going at night). Amazon.com: SmartGuard 120W 4-in-1 security system: motion activated light+camera+SD card memory+audio warning: Electronics (http://www.amazon.com/SmartGuard-120W-security-system-activated/dp/B0042CTM4C/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1361187264&sr=1-3&keywords=motion+sensor+flood+light+audio)

3.) Wireless motion activated lights. We have several of these attached to trees, side of the house, pool house, fence, etc. Battery operated and run off LED's (very bright). They activate when they sense motion. Helps to startle trespassers, alert you and neighbors and provides the needed light to our security video cameras pointed towards those directions. Also just good for lighting up your path while walking around your property at night. Amazon.com: Mr. Beams MB363 Wireless LED Spotlight with Motion Sensor and Photocell, Black, 3-Pack: Home Improvement (http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Beams-MB363-Spotlight-Photocell/dp/B008X099PQ/ref=pd_sim_e_6)

4.) A good security camera system. We started with this brand below and then moved to a different higher resolution brand that didn't require proprietary cameras and cable and had cloud ability, battery backup and a DVD burner. The key features to look for are resolution (600 lines+), night capability, an ease to use DVR and smartphone notification. A dedicated monitor is nice, but ours can be viewed by any TV in the house on a specific channel. Also critical to either hide the DVR well or put it in a DVR lock box mounted to the wall or foundation. *$999.00 after $100 Instant Savings* Revo 16 Channel Surveillance System with 8 High-Resolution 600TVL Cameras & 2 TB Hard drive. - Sam's Club (http://www.samsclub.com/sams/revo-16-channel-surveillance-system-with-8-high-resolution-600tvl-cameras-2-tb-hard-drive/prod6070671.ip?navAction=push)

5.) Keypad locks. Love these, specially when the kid was living at home (as he was terrible at losing his keys). No key to lose or have stolen. Plus, we can assign a temporary code for a one-time use on the door coming into the garage or pool house if someone needs to leave something for us and we don't want it on the porch. Amazon.com: Schlage FE575 PLY 626 ELA Plymouth Keypad Entry with Auto-Lock and Elan Levers, Brushed Chrome: Home Improvement (http://www.amazon.com/Schlage-FE575-PLY-626-ELA/dp/B001COEZTU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1361188647&sr=8-2&keywords=keyless+lock)

6.) Locking mailbox. We had some neighbors suffer from mail theft (Netflix DVD's, birthday cards, etc) so we got a locking mail box. Also great when you go out of town because nobody can see your mail piling up and realize you're gone. Amazon.com: Solar Group MSK00000 Extra Large Lockable Security Wall Mount Mailbox, Black: Home Improvement (http://www.amazon.com/Solar-Group-MSK00000-Lockable-Security/dp/B000CSK2EY/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1361189065&sr=8-4&keywords=locking+mailbox)

7.) A good alarm system is key - but you've gotta use it for it to be useful. We turn ours on even if we are just going to 7-11. We also got two wireless panic remotes. These are great to keep on you, but don't leave one in your car for obvious reasons. A system that sends you a text or phone call is good too.

8.) We also have an inside dog that will bark if anyone comes onto the property and has learned when the motion sensors go off that that means someone is around and he goes on alert.

If nothing else its good piece of mind and when added over time it really doesn't cost that much and it all pretty much blends into the background and isn't noticed. Honestly, I don't fear a burglary that much (that's what insurance is for), I just don't want the inside of the house vandalized or my wife to be in danger of physical attack from an intruder.

I really wish a group of 4-8 home buyers (or a developer) could go in and buy a stretch of homes and rehab them (starting on 15th street). If you could get pockets of rehabbed homes then I think more buyers would consider this a real option.

Figured I'd give my $0.02 on the topic as well. I live on the north side of 16th Street (near St. Francis), bought our house about 6 months ago. Maybe we've been lucky, but neither us nor any of our nearby neighbors have experienced any crime problems since we moved in. I'm sure the situation is different on the other side of 16th Street, and that the further away from the Plaza District you get the less gentrification you will find. However, in Gatewood you routinely see people out jogging, walking their dogs, etc. throughout the neighborhood.

There are still pockets of the Gatewood area that have yet to gentrify, and even more so in the Classen Ten Penn area. I really think a lot of these areas are a block by block determination, so it's hard to classify the entire neighborhood one way or the other. At the end of the day I believe the Classen Ten Penn area will be reviving (I believe in a recent chat Steve said this might be one of the next major developments you see happen near the Plaza District), but don't expect it to be fully revived in the next couple of years.

My wife and I love the Plaza District and hope to see more development on the south side of 16th in the near future. There are new shops, restaurants, and bars opening up every couple of months, and it's exciting to be within walking distance to so much great stuff. Buying a house on 15th near the Plaza could end up being a great investment, but depending on the rest of the neighborhood, it could take years (5-10 years) to really come to full fruition. Whether that is the right decision for you has in large part to do with your tolerance for living in a neighborhood going through transition versus a neighborhood that has already transitioned. From what I've heard, the area is substantially better than it was even 5 years ago, so who know what it will look like in another 5 years.

I'm in the middle of buying a house in the core, but landed a few blocks north of here. I just don't see the neighborhood south of the Plaza turning around any time soon (but I'd love to be wrong). I've looked at a house in just about every neighborhood inside the 235 - 44 - River loop, and there are areas that are poised for a much quicker rebound than south of 16th, west of Classen.

Not too far from there, and for not too much more cash, Crestwood is a viable option. That was my second choice neighborhood. PM me if you want some free advice based on my recent experience.

When you're looking, take note of the number of multi-family homes, as the more of them there are on the street, the less likely you will see significant effort made at gentrification.

I have often wondered if the Plaza is going to wrap around any of the streets to the point that it is also located on 15th or 17th, or if it's going stay solely on 16th. At some point, it's going to have to start rezoning residential for commercial. That's probably 7 to 10 years down the line.

I have often wondered if the Plaza is going to wrap around any of the streets to the point that it is also located on 15th or 17th, or if it's going stay solely on 16th. At some point, it's going to have to start rezoning residential for commercial. That's probably 7 to 10 years down the line.

I've wondered this also, but have always thought (at least for more retail/restaurants) it more likely to expand further in an east/west line, past Blackwelder to the east and Indiana on the west, at least in the near future. There are a number of apartment complexes just north of 16th between Indiana and Gatewood on 17th that seem like they would be prime candidates for some sort or redevelopment in the next 5-10 years as well, either retail or redeveloped residential.

Figured I'd give my $0.02 on the topic as well. I live on the north side of 16th Street (near St. Francis), bought our house about 6 months ago. Maybe we've been lucky, but neither us nor any of our nearby neighbors have experienced any crime problems since we moved in. I'm sure the situation is different on the other side of 16th Street, and that the further away from the Plaza District you get the less gentrification you will find. However, in Gatewood you routinely see people out jogging, walking their dogs, etc. throughout the neighborhood.

There are still pockets of the Gatewood area that have yet to gentrify, and even more so in the Classen Ten Penn area. I really think a lot of these areas are a block by block determination, so it's hard to classify the entire neighborhood one way or the other. At the end of the day I believe the Classen Ten Penn area will be reviving (I believe in a recent chat Steve said this might be one of the next major developments you see happen near the Plaza District), but don't expect it to be fully revived in the next couple of years.

My wife and I love the Plaza District and hope to see more development on the south side of 16th in the near future. There are new shops, restaurants, and bars opening up every couple of months, and it's exciting to be within walking distance to so much great stuff. Buying a house on 15th near the Plaza could end up being a great investment, but depending on the rest of the neighborhood, it could take years (5-10 years) to really come to full fruition. Whether that is the right decision for you has in large part to do with your tolerance for living in a neighborhood going through transition versus a neighborhood that has already transitioned. From what I've heard, the area is substantially better than it was even 5 years ago, so who know what it will look like in another 5 years.

16th and Francis and 15th and Blackwelder are like night and day - and yet only blocks apart. We actually spent the better part of 3 years looking for a home more in your area -Classen to Broadway, and 13th to 23rd with no luck (either too expensive upfront, or too expensive going forward).

We have lots of friends in your general area, and while they say they've been victims of crime (mostly just casual theft), they feel very secure.

I'd certainly consider investing in the 15th and Blackwelder area, I just wouldn't live there with a family.

That being said, the revitalization of the Plaza is the best thing to happen in that area in a long time.

I'm in the middle of buying a house in the core, but landed a few blocks north of here. I just don't see the neighborhood south of the Plaza turning around any time soon (but I'd love to be wrong). I've looked at a house in just about every neighborhood inside the 235 - 44 - River loop, and there are areas that are poised for a much quicker rebound than south of 16th, west of Classen.

Not too far from there, and for not too much more cash, Crestwood is a viable option. That was my second choice neighborhood. PM me if you want some free advice based on my recent experience.

While I do think that the area S of 16th has long term potential, I'm not sure if it's going to be in the time frame you're looking for. But, we'd LOVE to have you in Crestwood, I've lived there for quite a while, great neighborhood! and still very close to the Plaza.

16th and Francis and 15th and Blackwelder are like night and day - and yet only blocks apart. We actually spent the better part of 3 years looking for a home more in your area -Classen to Broadway, and 13th to 23rd with no luck (either too expensive upfront, or too expensive going forward).

We have lots of friends in your general area, and while they say they've been victims of crime (mostly just casual theft), they feel very secure.

I'd certainly consider investing in the 15th and Blackwelder area, I just wouldn't live there with a family.

That being said, the revitalization of the Plaza is the best thing to happen in that area in a long time.

No big, but I think he was referring to St. Francis church, around Kentucky Avenue, not Francis Avenue.

Years ago I lived in that area and even had rent houses with a partner in the surrounding neighborhood.

The reality is the area has been severely crime-ridden for a very long time - burglaries, prostitution, drug crimes, gangs, etc.

Will it revive at some point - probably. But I honestly don't see the area south of 16th getting noticeably better for a very long time (10+ years at least). We looked there again before buying and decided it just wasn't worth it.

The Plaza area is nice to walk, shop, and patronize, but I doubt you'd find yourself walking the dog, jogging, riding a bike, etc. on any of the surrounding streets (especially to the south, or making friends with too many of your neighbors).

When I did live in the area some renters I had were broken into, but I never was. I had two attempts, but both times they fled as soon as the alarm went off. My only renters that suffered from theft were those who did not have alarms that they used or left things outside or cars not in the garage.

What I hated though was both times the would-be burglars with my home kicked in the back door prior to the alarm going off. While they stole nothing, I had to totally replace the back door and door jams both times.

That's when I moved to a bit more deterrence that I use to this day.

I know you didn't ask specifically about burglary deterrence, but here are the things we do and have used over the years.

Some will say this entire effort is overkill, but we find it unobtrusive and its prevented a single break-in from happening (or even attempts) and we continued to live in a crime ridden area until this year.
1.) Motion sensors around our property (we have 8 of these covering the entire property). You get an audible tone whenever someone comes onto your property. Not only does it alert you to someone's presence, but often when someone walks up to your door they too hear the buzz and know you've been alerted. When we go out of town we leave the receiver with our neighbor and just turn a couple of sensors on. Amazon.com: Chamberlain CWA2000 Wireless Motion Alert: Camera & Photo (http://www.amazon.com/Chamberlain-CWA2000-Wireless-Motion-Alert/dp/B002ISVJL6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361187175&sr=8-1&keywords=driveway+motion+sensor+chamberlin)

2.) Motion activated flood lights with built-in camera and audio alert. We have these over our driveway and back porch. Ours is a different brand and also utilizes 'the cloud' to backup video footage and streams live to my smartphone and has battery backup. I really like these! Someone walks up to driveway at night and it announces, "You're trespassing!" Plus lights them up and takes video of them and alerts me via a text message. Also great to keep your cars or yard decoration safe(er). Ours has a remote to turn them off and on (less annoying when coming and going at night). Amazon.com: SmartGuard 120W 4-in-1 security system: motion activated light+camera+SD card memory+audio warning: Electronics (http://www.amazon.com/SmartGuard-120W-security-system-activated/dp/B0042CTM4C/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1361187264&sr=1-3&keywords=motion+sensor+flood+light+audio)

3.) Wireless motion activated lights. We have several of these attached to trees, side of the house, pool house, fence, etc. Battery operated and run off LED's (very bright). They activate when they sense motion. Helps to startle trespassers, alert you and neighbors and provides the needed light to our security video cameras pointed towards those directions. Also just good for lighting up your path while walking around your property at night. Amazon.com: Mr. Beams MB363 Wireless LED Spotlight with Motion Sensor and Photocell, Black, 3-Pack: Home Improvement (http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Beams-MB363-Spotlight-Photocell/dp/B008X099PQ/ref=pd_sim_e_6)

4.) A good security camera system. We started with this brand below and then moved to a different higher resolution brand that didn't require proprietary cameras and cable and had cloud ability, battery backup and a DVD burner. The key features to look for are resolution (600 lines+), night capability, an ease to use DVR and smartphone notification. A dedicated monitor is nice, but ours can be viewed by any TV in the house on a specific channel. Also critical to either hide the DVR well or put it in a DVR lock box mounted to the wall or foundation. *$999.00 after $100 Instant Savings* Revo 16 Channel Surveillance System with 8 High-Resolution 600TVL Cameras & 2 TB Hard drive. - Sam's Club (http://www.samsclub.com/sams/revo-16-channel-surveillance-system-with-8-high-resolution-600tvl-cameras-2-tb-hard-drive/prod6070671.ip?navAction=push)

5.) Keypad locks. Love these, specially when the kid was living at home (as he was terrible at losing his keys). No key to lose or have stolen. Plus, we can assign a temporary code for a one-time use on the door coming into the garage or pool house if someone needs to leave something for us and we don't want it on the porch. Amazon.com: Schlage FE575 PLY 626 ELA Plymouth Keypad Entry with Auto-Lock and Elan Levers, Brushed Chrome: Home Improvement (http://www.amazon.com/Schlage-FE575-PLY-626-ELA/dp/B001COEZTU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1361188647&sr=8-2&keywords=keyless+lock)

6.) Locking mailbox. We had some neighbors suffer from mail theft (Netflix DVD's, birthday cards, etc) so we got a locking mail box. Also great when you go out of town because nobody can see your mail piling up and realize you're gone. Amazon.com: Solar Group MSK00000 Extra Large Lockable Security Wall Mount Mailbox, Black: Home Improvement (http://www.amazon.com/Solar-Group-MSK00000-Lockable-Security/dp/B000CSK2EY/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1361189065&sr=8-4&keywords=locking+mailbox)

7.) A good alarm system is key - but you've gotta use it for it to be useful. We turn ours on even if we are just going to 7-11. We also got two wireless panic remotes. These are great to keep on you, but don't leave one in your car for obvious reasons. A system that sends you a text or phone call is good too.

8.) We also have an inside dog that will bark if anyone comes onto the property and has learned when the motion sensors go off that that means someone is around and he goes on alert.

If nothing else its good piece of mind and when added over time it really doesn't cost that much and it all pretty much blends into the background and isn't noticed. Honestly, I don't fear a burglary that much (that's what insurance is for), I just don't want the inside of the house vandalized or my wife to be in danger of physical attack from an intruder.

I really wish a group of 4-8 home buyers (or a developer) could go in and buy a stretch of homes and rehab them (starting on 15th street). If you could get pockets of rehabbed homes then I think more buyers would consider this a real option.

I don't want to derail this thead into a discussion of home security but I was wondering if your motion detectors are able to tell the difference between a person walking up to your house or a dog or cat. I would hate to be woke up in the middle of the night because some animal decided to visit.

No big, but I think he was referring to St. Francis church, around Kentucky Avenue, not Francis Avenue.

Re-read on a real computer screen (instead of my phone) and you are correct. My mind probably led me down that wrong path because I lived on Francis many moons ago (scariest house I ever lived in).

The church is around 20th is it not (straight North and a bit West of Blackwelder)? Certainly much closer to the Plaza and nicer than 15th, but I do see where it would still be street by street and house by house. Mostly two stories in that area isn't it?

I don't want to derail this thead into a discussion of home security but I was wondering if your motion detectors are able to tell the difference between a person walking up to your house or a dog or cat. I would hate to be woke up in the middle of the night because some animal decided to visit.

Like a home security motion sensor - it depends on how you hang it (I like to hand them no lower than 4'). It detects motion in a wide horizontal radius, and not so much in a vertical one. Don't recall any dogs setting them off, but a wasp started making a nest in one and it drove me nuts until I realized what was happening and sprayed the sensor with wasp kill.

The church is around 20th is it not (straight North and a bit West of Blackwelder)? Certainly much closer to the Plaza and nicer than 15th, but I do see where it would still be street by street and house by house. Mostly two stories in that area isn't it?

The church is between 18th and 19th and Virginia and Kentucky (north and west of Blackwelder as you said). I believe all of the homes that immediately surround the church are two stories, but there are plenty of one story houses within a block or so, especially to the west and north. It's about a two-block walk from the area around the church to the Plaza District. A couple of blocks to the east on Carey Place most of the houses are two stories as well.

Like I said earlier, some really great pockets and areas within Gatewood and the area around it, but there is such a disparity on some parts of the neighborhood that looking for homes really is a block by block effort, as it can make a huge difference in who your neighbors will be and how gentrified the area has become.

I moved into Gatewood a little over a year ago and love it.

I live on 22nd very near Penn, so Im on the outer corner and probably see more foot traffic from students and random bums, but have never had a bad encounter with them. Ive more trouble from the kids down the street playing in the street in the dark than I have from anything or anyone else.

Yes, south of 16th is sketch, but honestly, the north end of Mesta if sketch, and thats always a premium spot to say you live in the core.

No one on our street has had any issues with crime, even living so close to 23rd and penn, with all its random traffic through the area. Its a great area to walk a dog and run, as my wife and I do daily. We see tons of other in the neighborhood doing the same. If you run south of 16th, you'll even get some good motivation from the random dogs that aren't leashed. :)

The fact is that no neighborhood is going to be without crime. Gatewood has a pretty involved group of people living in it, and working towards making it a premier place to live. I wouldn't want to move back into Mesta now, I just love the diversity and the progress over here in Plaza.

My wife and I just moved to Carey Place, and just as you were saying OSUPetersson, I have never seen so much foot traffic in a neighborhood in my life. Every day there are, no joke, nearly 100 people that walk down the street, most of which walking their dog or with their children.

Having said that, my father in law is a disabled vet and lives south of 16th off Indiana and it is a much different vibe just a few blocks from us. Also, my wife is an OKC police officer and said that is one of the highest crime rates and one of the highest areas for gang activity in the city.

Before we lived within walking distance I refused to park south of 16th.

Gatewood is on the up and up, the entire neighborhood is dedicated to making it one of the best in the city. A long influx of 20 somethings are moving in all the time. Just like my wife and I, we are young and completely remodeling the house and hoping many other in the area continue to do the same.

For those interested, apologies for the late notice:



State of the Plaza
Wednesday, Feb 20th, 6:00pm
PhotoArt Studios 1738 NW 16th Street

Plaza District Reflects on Progress, Looks Forward to 2013

The Plaza District Association is pleased to host the first annual State of the Plaza, an update on district progress over the past year, and a look forward for what’s ahead in the district for 2013.
Attendees will hear from a panel of Plaza District investors, business owners, and staff. The panel includes:

* Aimee Ahpeatone and Steve Mason, Sweet Sixteenth LLC
* Darcy Schein & Leslie Coale-Mossman, Pie Junkie
* Dylan and Amanda Bradway, DNA Galleries
* Joey Morris, Cody Rowan, John Harris, The Mule
* Kristen Vails, Executive Director

Refreshments include a tasting of Pie Junkie pies, wine provided by Urban Wineworks and beer provided by COOP Aleworks.

The event is open to all Friends of the Plaza, a patronage program of the Plaza District Association. Friends of the Plaza volunteer, patronize Plaza businesses, and promote the revitalization of the District. Those interested in becoming a Friend of the Plaza can sign up at the event. Becoming a Friend of the Plaza is only $40, and Friends receive invitations to special events, grand openings, volunteer opportunities as well as Plaza District Tshirts, tote bags and stickers.

For more information, visit Support « Plaza DistrictPlaza District (http://www.plazadistrict.org/support)

My wife and I and our daughter moved into a flat on Gatewood Ave. between 16th and 17th in 2010. We rent right now (a nice flat in a hot location at below the going rate in the area), but we are looking to buy in the next couple of years. We like the area and we would prefer a home nearby.

Gatewood: Like it has been said before, Gatewood is a block-by-block proposition. I have generally found the best streets are between Classen & Douglas from 19th to 22nd, between Carey Place and Virginia from 17th to 19th, and between Indiana and Penn from 20th to 22nd. There are some interesting, large houses along 16th east of the Plaza as well. These are the areas where I would consider purchasing a home.

Classen-Ten-Penn: There are some great homes scattered throughout the neighborhood, but they are on terrible streets and surrounded by dilapidated properties. If you were to purchase in this area, you would need to be OK with being a pioneer and having a long-term investment. The best (or maybe I should say least dilapidated) street I have found is 11th between Klein & Western. Western in this area has some potential with the Istvan Gallery as a starting point. However, make no mistake, this area has a significant homeless/crazy population. The best hope for Classen-Ten-Penn is someone who will redevelop this neighborhood in entire blocks at a time. While some homes can be rehabilitated, there are many that have deteriorated to the point of no return and need to be demolished and replaced. Not to be negative, but a few renovated homes and a couple of urban pioneers is not going to create the momentum this neighborhood needs.

Crime: Since we are near the the borderline between Gatewood and C-T-P, we get the occasional folks drifting north of 16th and knocking on my door and going through my trashcans, but nothing particulary scary. I work in Midtown and my wife stays home with our now 3 kids during the day and she never feels threatened or scared. The only incidents I have seen is the occasional petty theft or somebody getting their car window smashed because they left their GPS on the dashboard. But that is true with any neighborhood. There are some interesting folks that frequent the area, but they are 99% harmless.

I am amazed with the progress the area has made in just the last 2 1/2 years we have lived here. We love the Plaza and all the activity it generates. The diversity is stunning from an economic standpoint. Since there is a significant amount of existing housing in the area, it is possible for people of all walks of life to live in close proximity to each other and participate in the revival. IMO, the Plaza/Gatewood/C-T-P is the closest thing to a true, urban neighborhood in this city.

The information you guys have provided thus far has been extremely helpful. It's amazing how much knowledge this group has. Thank you. Keep it coming, if anyone has more to add.

I live at 12th n Penn in the Youngs - Englewood district. A ton of my friends have been moving into the area and also south of 16th.

This whole discussion makes me wonder how long it will be until most residential in the Urban Core is valued at $125/sq.ft. or more (by today's currency value). I feel like there is so much momentum in the urban core that even the rougher areas could catch up pretty quickly. I'm sure it's well over 10 years away, but I think 20 to 30 years is reasonable. 23rd, The Plaza, Paseo, Western Ave all need to continue (or even boost) their momentum to accomplish this, but a couple major developments and a combination of homeowners and committed investors could move the progress along really quickly.

I'd be interested to hear from people who really know just how far the residential areas of the Urban Core have come in the last 10 years.

Like I said earlier, some really great pockets and areas within Gatewood and the area around it, but there is such a disparity on some parts of the neighborhood that looking for homes really is a block by block effort, as it can make a huge difference in who your neighbors will be and how gentrified the area has become.

I think this is true of all of the neighborhoods surrounding the Plaza, and probably in general for urban neighborhoods.

I live, work and my life pretty much revolves around the neighborhood and I completely agree. I live at 15th & Youngs and drive west down 15th street every day. There are actually quite a few lovely renovations happening west of the Plaza that I've noticed in the last 6 months. While I'm not sure how quickly the entire neighborhood will transform, looking at the neighborhood block by block is best. Living at 15th and Youngs, just west of Plaza is the same story. I love my block, but south and west of my block can be pretty sketchy. I've never had an issue with crime, and feel comfortable as a female living alone.

This whole discussion makes me wonder how long it will be until most residential in the Urban Core is valued at $125/sq.ft. or more (by today's currency value). I feel like there is so much momentum in the urban core that even the rougher areas could catch up pretty quickly. I'm sure it's well over 10 years away, but I think 20 to 30 years is reasonable. 23rd, The Plaza, Paseo, Western Ave all need to continue (or even boost) their momentum to accomplish this, but a couple major developments and a combination of homeowners and committed investors could move the progress along really quickly.

I'd be interested to hear from people who really know just how far the residential areas of the Urban Core have come in the last 10 years.

The entire inner northwest side--the areas south and east of 44, north of the river, and west of 235--reminds me a lot of the Inner Loop in Houston. This used to be a mostly rough area as recently as 15 years ago, but now its very exclusive. The big thing there is traffic is so god awful in Houston, it makes urban living a much better alternative than commuting. Lot of folks live in the inner loop who you wouldn't associate with urban living just because of the commuting issue, and most end up liking it. We have no similar traffic issue to woo suburbanites.

But we do have a lot of people moving here from other parts of the country who are more comfortable with the thought of living in the city than your average Okie. Also, there are a lot of people in my generation (20's and early 30's) who are--GASP--delaying marriage and/or kids. Also, you have older people whose kids have moved out, or divorced people who decide to not remarry. It certainly goes against the Oklahoma zeitgeist of getting married and popping out kids, but running to the suburbs and getting in a good school district is not as important to these folks. In my corner in midtown the changes have been immense in the past 2.5 years I've lived there. If the local economy keeps up I think you will start to see something similar to the inner loop here in 10-15 years.

FWIW I really applaud people with families who are living in the urban core, because I know as it stands now it is not an easy decision.

Antojitos Guatemalen in the Plaza District is expanding.

3488

From their FB page:


Our hidden gem will longer be hidden come 2014! Antojitos Guatemaltecos will expand it's restaurant into the entire building! We are excited about their expansion and look forward to enjoying that patio! Antojitos Guatemaltecos - Inner City Northside - Oklahoma City | Urbanspoon (http://www.urbanspoon.com/r/46/1443301/restaurant/Inner-City-Northside/Antojitos-Guatemaltecos-Oklahoma-City)

Glad to see this project moving forward, especially since it's such a high-profile corner.

I had posted the plans and renderings over a year ago.

It looks as though the Plaza district has completely failed OKC:

Discover the 10 Least Hipster Cities in the Country (http://www.movoto.com/blog/top-ten/least-hipster-cities/)


The Ten Least Hipster Cities

1. El Paso, TX
2. Jacksonville, FL
3. Fort Worth, TX
4. Oklahoma City, OK


I propose we gather at saints to toast (with obscure micro-brews) to the valiant effort that was known as "Plaza District".

It looks as though the Plaza district has completely failed OKC:

Discover the 10 Least Hipster Cities in the Country (http://www.movoto.com/blog/top-ten/least-hipster-cities/)



I propose we gather at saints to toast (with obscure micro-brews) to the valiant effort that was known as "Plaza District".

Interesting that "Just the Facts" lives in #2 and has an unhealthy obsession with #4. Coincidence? :)

Interesting that "Just the Facts" lives in #2 and has an unhealthy obsession with #4. Coincidence? :)

He grew up in Oklahoma.

He grew up in Oklahoma.

I jest.

Glad to see this project moving forward, especially since it's such a high-profile corner.

I had posted the plans and renderings over a year ago.

LOL. I must have missed it, but it must have died for awhile, as they just announced it on FB today.

Here are all the images I posted when this came through design review in April last year:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/1800nw16a.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/1800nw16b.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/1800nw16c.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/1800nw16d.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/1800nw16e.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/1800nw16f.jpg

It looks as though the Plaza district has completely failed OKC:

Discover the 10 Least Hipster Cities in the Country (http://www.movoto.com/blog/top-ten/least-hipster-cities/)



I propose we gather at saints to toast (with obscure micro-brews) to the valiant effort that was known as "Plaza District".

I can only do so much by myself.

***BTW, can we get a bicycle emoticon?***

It looks as though the Plaza district has completely failed OKC:

Discover the 10 Least Hipster Cities in the Country (http://www.movoto.com/blog/top-ten/least-hipster-cities/)
I know plenty of people in Austin who would give up the hipster invasion that has happened there, especially this week (SXSW).

New lingerie shop coming to the Plaza District:

https://www.facebook.com/TheRuffLifeOKC

Interesting that "Just the Facts" lives in #2 and has an unhealthy obsession with #4. Coincidence? :)

LOL. You have to go where the problems are. What good would it do if I spent all my effort on places that don't have a problem? As for my OKC connection - it is my adopted hometown. Nearly all of family lives in the OKC metro area.

New lingerie shop coming to the Plaza District:

https://www.facebook.com/TheRuffLifeOKC

They could have saved some money and just bought the old canine boutique sign when they went out of business and used it as their own...... "Chasing Tail"

They could have saved some money and just bought the old canine boutique sign when they went out of business and used it as their own...... "Chasing Tail"*rimshot*