Two things - first, are we sure the Plaza District has a parking problem? Or do the people of OKC have a perception problem? The Plaza District seems to be booming specifically because it is built around people. I also have been to the Plaza probably 50 times and I've never once had trouble finding a parking spot. Sometimes you have to walk a block. I am sure there are business owners -- and also those used to suburban layouts -- who think any decline in sales could be remedied by more parking, but I don't think that's likely correct. If there are any lots close enough to the Plaza District for parking, I'd assume them be built up with more retail and residential that fits the area.

Second, if a parking garage were a necessity, then an appropriate one for a neighborhood could potentially have two underground floors of parking, retail at ground level and maybe two levels above. Parking garages don't have to be -- or feel like -- behemoth ugly structures and I bet something that fits the area that is two to three floors above ground level could be a real asset to the area. Maybe a smaller version of something like this:

http://buildabetterburb.org/2013/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/designing-a-better-parking-garage-slide-04.jpg

I know that's an expensive solution, which is why I wouldn't do parking near the district.

But that's in the urban core, where they can go up 5-10 stories. Even if you did one two level parking garage in the Plaza District, it would be so much more invasive to the surrounding neighborhood than a 10 story parking garage on Bricktown.

More intrusive than residential streets LINED with cars every weekend? I don't live there, but I'm not sure I agree. You impact one part of one block with structured parking. You impact 10 or 20 square blocks every weekend by asking visitors to park in front of people's homes.

I have never ever once had an issue finding parking further than 100 ft. from my location.

Another good reason to prioritize public transit to this area. Skip the car in general!

The best solution for the parking problem in the Plaza District is to create street parking on the adjacent streets. There is a huge lot next to the Lyric Academy, a 35-40 spot lot across from Lyric and a lot of street parking. I have been to shows at Lyric and to restaurants in the Plaza district and have no problems parking on 17th street and walking one block... It's an f-ing block!!!! Get out there and walk a little bit instead of complaining (not directed at anyone on this board, but people I have talked to) of the parking issues. If all the streets were full of street parking from 13th-18th street and the side streets to the east and west, then I would agree that we have a parking problem...

A lot of people in OKC are still getting used to not parking directly in front of their destination and some still don't know how to handle it. When I go to Bricktown for instance I have no issues parking at Bass Pro and walking to wherever I need to go, but I have been with friends who have refused to walk that far and do nothing but complain about parking when they are down there.

I wouldn't have any issues with this lot being that it's replacing an already existing gravel lot, with the exception that they are tearing down that duplex. The duplexes add a lot of charm to that area and its a shame to see it torn down for this.

More intrusive than residential streets LINED with cars every weekend? I don't live there, but I'm not sure I agree. You impact one part of one block with structured parking. You impact 10 or 20 square blocks every weekend by asking visitors to park in front of people's homes.

That's why I said if all the streets from 13th-18th were lined with cars and the side streets to the east and west, then we would have a parking problem. I can do down to the Plaza district any day of the year, besides the evening of the Plaza Festival, and not have a problem finding parking on 17th street or 15th street. Currently, there is not a parking problem in the Plaza District, it's a parking perception that is the problem. For example, I have had lunch with my wife in the Plaza District twice this week on beautiful days. One day, I parked in the lot across from Lyric. The other day, I parked across from Empire.

One of the key things for the Plaza District's retail and office components to grow without major new parking is to increase the residential density of the surrounding neighborhoods. This will allow more people to access the Plaza by walking directly from their homes, meaning they never need to get into their cars.

The whole area should remove single family zoning, reduce minimum lot size, reduce/drop minimum off-street parking requirements, and allow for 2–5 unit "missing middle" structures. I'm not advocating for wholesale destruction of the existing housing stock, but economics would allow many more residential units on an incremental basis by reducing many of the development restrictions.

At the very least, accessory dwelling units should be encouraged and incentivized as a quick juice for density and affordability for the neighborhoods.

Honestly some of the main streets in the surrounding neighborhoods need to have wider streets. The parking on both sides of the street leaving passage for a single vehicle is the problem.

Have the city pay home owners for the common-to-the-area strips of grass that are between the sidewalk and the street curb, then pave the street outward to the sidewalk. And use this time to revamp the sidewalk.

One of the key things for the Plaza District's retail and office components to grow without major new parking is to increase the residential density of the surrounding neighborhoods. This will allow more people to access the Plaza by walking directly from their homes, meaning they never need to get into their cars.

The whole area should remove single family zoning, reduce minimum lot size, reduce/drop minimum off-street parking requirements, and allow for 2–5 unit "missing middle" structures. I'm not advocating for wholesale destruction of the existing housing stock, but economics would allow many more residential units on an incremental basis by reducing many of the development restrictions.

At the very least, accessory dwelling units should be encouraged and incentivized as a quick juice for density and affordability for the neighborhoods.

Which we are already seeing with Ben Sellers' developments, as well as other multi-family units coming online. I know the owner of the empty lot on the north side of 16th street, just east of Blackwelder and he plans to build a triplex on the spot if he can figure out the financing and get it pre-leased.

Apologies that I didn't have time to snap a picture, but I noticed when I drove by today, that work has started on the 16th and McKinley housing development.

something about a shipping container snow cone stand

Which we are already seeing with Ben Sellers' developments, as well as other multi-family units coming online. I know the owner of the empty lot on the north side of 16th street, just east of Blackwelder and he plans to build a triplex on the spot if he can figure out the financing and get it pre-leased.

Isn't it for sale now?

something about a shipping container snow cone stand

http://newsok.com/snow-cone-stand-debate-sends-chills-through-plaza-district/article/5500963

I love the idea of a shipping container snow cone stand that will cater to all members of the community. It doesn't sound like the mechanic is making changes to his property either way, so why not allow the development? I hope this comes to fruition.

Here is where this container snow cone place will be going.

It's a huge blank spot on a key corner; the tables will be an especially nice addition:



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/plazaice3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/plazaice2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/plazaice1.jpg

I wish there was some way to incentivize the owner of the property to renovate.

I wish there was some way to incentivize the owner of the property to renovate.

I believe the snowcone stand is incentive. It's telling that the owners of the garage have no interest in selling their property to the many developers who've approached them over the years, but are eager to assist a non-profit which seeks to benefit the larger neighborhood around them. Instead of complaining about a property that's been successful since long before the Plaza District existed, someone is finally encouraging them to participate in the revival in their own way.

^^^^^^^^
Honestly, that's my takeaway too. It's obvious that despite the looks of the property, the garage is popular and busy. It would be nice if they could make the building look a bit nicer but the garage is contributing positively to the surrounding neighborhood - and they want to work together with this non-profit that will help the community. It absolutely sounds like a win to me!

I don't see where I said this wasn't a good project.... It would just be nice if the building was updated.

It seems as though the rendering in Steve's article indicates a fresh coat of paint for the trimwork of the building, or at least the section closest to 16th Street. That would be a notable improvement as well if that is the case.

I don't see where I said this wasn't a good project.... It would just be nice if the building was updated.

Nothing personal AP, gentrification is just a touchy subject in the Plaza.
http://www.thelostogle.com/2016/06/01/plaza-district-gentrifier-wants-to-crush-a-nonprofit-snow-cone-stand/

If you want to see how big an issue this has become, read some of the letters submitted to the Urban Design Commission before the 4+ hour meeting where it was approved: https://agenda.okc.gov/sirepub/view.aspx?cabinet=published_meetings&fileid=3197298

I think (don't quote me on this) the only opponents of this were the owners of Pie Junkie, because they thought it would take business away from them.

Jeff Struble owns the building directly to the west and they are planning to put a breakfast & lunch spot in the space immediately adjacent to the garage.

Lighting up: Entertainment and nighttime retail help districts thrive

By: Molly M. Fleming The Journal Record June 1, 2016

OKLAHOMA CITY – The Lyric Theatre board of directors wanted a permanent home. What the Plaza District received in return was a key to its future growth, according to a development consultant.

Oregon-based Civilis Consultants Principal Michele Reeves said food and entertainment are important first steps to any district’s revitalization because they touch the senses.

“Theater is a destination,” she said. “It provides multi-sensory entertainment so people have a different interaction with the space. That’s really what a district needs to get on the map. I’d say food and entertainment are the two most-common drivers.”

At the Uptown 23rd District, on NW 23rd Street, food first brought people to the run-down area. A Good Egg Dining Group opened Cheever’s Café in 2000. Co-founder Keith Paul said he and his wife, Heather, never thought they would see the Tower Theater reopening like it will this summer.

“When we first started with Cheever’s, the only time we talked about the Tower Theater was when Heritage Hills’ residents would tell us about it,” he said. “It didn’t even hit our radar what impact the Tower Theater will have once it gets open.”

Reeves said food is important because everyone has to eat, and people typically aren’t afraid to cross cultural boundaries for food. However, Paul said Cheever’s started as a neighborhood restaurant because no one north of NW 63rd Street would come to the area.

Lyric opened in 2000 and was the lone venue in a district that wouldn’t see another investor until 2006, when developer Jeff Struble started purchasing property, including the building that is now home to The Mule. The formerly desolate area is now seeing a duplex torn down to create more parking, and the district has a 98-percent occupancy rate.

But Lyric Theatre Executive Director Paula Stover remembers it wasn’t always a bustling street. She said her board wanted to move there for its permanent home because changing locations didn’t make the organization look stable. When it came time for the first board meeting in the Plaza District, Stover received some phone calls.

“A couple of board members called and asked if it was safe for them to park their cars down here,” she said, laughing about the irony since the same callers had approved the move.

The theater’s move also meant it could open its student academy, fulfilling one of its missions to educate young people. The academy opened in 2001. In total, the theater employs about 250 people, from teachers to directors. With that many people working in the district, Stover said it is an economic driver for the area.

“Our people have to eat,” she said. “Previously, we had to go to 23rd Street.”

Stover was honored for her efforts in bringing The Lyric to The Plaza on Wednesday at the Plaza District’s annual Urban Pioneer Awards luncheon.

“I can’t believe we’ve been here that long,” she said. “When you think about those years – the change has been rapid.”

City of Oklahoma City Arts Liason Robbie Kienzle said bringing arts to a developing district helps expose it to a new crowd. She said she can see that happening next at NW 12th Street and Pennsylvania Avenue, where Current Studio is having evening classes and events. Since people are there working after-hours, the area has activity, and sparks curiosity as people pass. Before Current Studio took up residency, the place was dark at night. The studio is near Nic’s Grill.

Reeves said for a district to continue its development once it has entertainment venues, the nearby retail stores need to come to life at night as well. She said she’s worked in a small town that revitalized its theater, and the shoe store across from the theater wasn’t open at night. When the store started lighting its front window, theater-goers would return the next day.

“You want to make sure your district looks good at night when it’s closed,” she said.

Apparently, the building on the corner of 16th and Classen is being demolished today.

Apparently, the building on the corner of 16th and Classen is being demolished today.

The NW corner? I had seen some activity there recently but I was hoping they were remodeling and not getting ready to mow it down.

It's been known for some time I thought that the old Marcos had been bought and would be demolished... there's a thread in here somewhere about it

^^^^^^^
The corner is being completely redeveloped, with much better land use. This is a good thing.

Yes, the NW corner of NW 16th & Classen is being cleared for a future mixed-use project.

Exact details have yet to be revealed by this is a development by the Pivot Project guys so it will be first class.

Believe there will be apartments with retail / restaurant space.

From https://twitter.com/awkwordy:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sanmarcos082016.jpg

Yes, the NW corner of NW 16th & Classen is being cleared for a future mixed-use project.

Ahhhhh.... Last I had heard it was in the hands of a restaurant group.

Yes, the NW corner of NW 16th & Classen is being cleared for a future mixed-use project.

Exact details have yet to be revealed by this is a development by the Pivot Project guys so it will be first class.

Believe there will be apartments with retail / restaurant space.

From https://twitter.com/awkwordy:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sanmarcos082016.jpg

This is fantastic news. That building has been an eyesore and terrible entry point for the Plaza. Really excited to see what the Pivot guys pull off here.

We should see detailed plans announced soon.

You can bet it will be cool.

Glad to finally see movement on this. that is such a prime spot and has been such an eyesore. I am glad a top notch developer is working this because its a great opportunity for an amazing entry point for the plaza.

Is that a new bus stop? I don't remember having seen it there.

Is that a new bus stop? I don't remember having seen it there.

Yup. They're being installed throughout the city.

There is already some NIMBY opposition to apartments being built there. I know it is a vocal minority but as a newish resident (almost two years) to the neighborhood it gets old.

There is already some NIMBY opposition to apartments being built there. I know it is a vocal minority but as a newish resident (almost two years) to the neighborhood it gets old.

Yes the Nextdoor thread is insufferable:
(1) Apartments always reduce property value!
(2) There are too many apartments!
(3) No one told me this was happening!
(4) This will reduce the rent I can charge on my apartments, and mine have been here longer.
(5) Why can't all development at this major, high-traffic intersection be restricted to quiet yoga studios, wine bars, hip but quaint bookstores and NO APARTMENTS? Is that too much to ask?
(6) I live near the Plaza and I choose to believe that the meteoric rise in my property value over the last ten years is not due to the area becoming fashionable and desirable and safe but is rather due to the universe giving me my due as a hardworking American. People parking on the street upsets me greatly. That is all.
(6-250) WHERE WILL THEY PARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes the Nextdoor thread is insufferable:
(1) Apartments always reduce property value!
(2) There are too many apartments!
(3) No one told me this was happening!
(4) This will reduce the rent I can charge on my apartments, and mine have been here longer.
(5) Why can't all development at this major, high-traffic intersection be restricted to quiet yoga studios, wine bars, hip but quaint bookstores and NO APARTMENTS? Is that too much to ask?
(6) I live near the Plaza and I choose to believe that the meteoric rise in my property value over the last ten years is not due to the area becoming fashionable and desirable and safe but is rather due to the universe giving me my due as a hardworking American. People parking on the street upsets me greatly. That is all.
(6-250) WHERE WILL THEY PARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spot on. At first there was concern that it would be "low income housing" and now 20 reply later the debate is that there are no good jobs in OKC so no one can afford to live there. Some of these people (I know it is a vocal minority) live in an OKC that I don't recognize.

The area around the Plaza continues to improve.

These are a couple of recently renovated fourplexes on NW17th near Braums:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/plaza092616c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/plaza092616d.jpg

Very nice restoration

Very nice restoration
Will you stop? You never have anything nice to say about OKC and are always negative!!! ;)

Will you stop? You never have anything nice to say about OKC and are always negative!!! ;)

Too Funny:hobbes:

My biggest gripe is the fact that they took out that nice bald cypress in front. Shame.

Those are two separate buildings, both renovated.

Ahhh gotcha...my mistake, lol.

Yeah, I realized later those look like a 'before and after' instead of two separate buildings.

There are actually a whole row of them there on 17th and that immediate area has some really cool older multi-family housing stock that is slowly being restored.

Is anyone knowledgeable about the building which sits on the south east corner of NW 16th and Indiana Ave? It looks like it was once a gas station. I know it has been a number of things in the past. The owner appears to have recently painted the building and cleaned up the exterior in a great way. It believe it ceased to operate as a convenience store sometime around when the exterior work was done. I'd love to have insight as to what is planned for this space, if anything.

Also, any word on progress or plans for the two-story infill project that is supposed to be next to Chiltepes? IIRC, it is a Struble project, so I'm excited to see what happens. I haven't heard much of anything about this project in a while.

Thanks!

The rumor is that Empire's turning the former Chiltepes store (not the restaurant) into a to-go location.

The rumor is that Empire's turning the former Chiltepes store (not the restaurant) into a to-go location.

Like to-go food, or pizza by the slice? Or both?

I couldn't find the thread for this project, but it's great to see that this will result in a mixed-use development.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5526480?access=8c5f220362b6ad640d5e5c6c1ce4b91d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_theoklahoman

However, I really disagree with this statement. I don't think parking is key to the district, but maybe there's something I'm missing... It just seems like if the Plaza District keeps it up with quality urban devlopments, people will find a way there...


“And parking is so huge — the district needs parking very badly. This will be important to keep our area thriving.”

I couldn't find the thread for this project, but it's great to see that this will result in a mixed-use development.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5526480?access=8c5f220362b6ad640d5e5c6c1ce4b91d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_theoklahoman

However, I really disagree with this statement. I don't think parking is key to the district, but maybe there's something I'm missing... It just seems like if the Plaza District keeps it up with quality urban devlopments, people will find a way there...

Yeah I disagree as well, but what do I know..

As the popularity of an area goes up so does the demand for parking, as the number of parking lots go up, walkability and quality of an area can diminish. where is the happy medium? is it possible to build a neighborhood that's amazing for both pedestrians and cars or must you sacrifice one for the other?

Yeah I disagree as well, but what do I know..

As the popularity of an area goes up so does the demand for parking, as the number of parking lots go up, walkability and quality of an area can diminish. where is the happy medium? is it possible to build a neighborhood that's amazing for both pedestrians and cars or must you sacrifice one for the other?

It IS possible to have parking AND have a vibrant pedestrian area. It is lazy thinking that they are mutually exclusive.

It IS possible to have parking AND have a vibrant pedestrian area. It is lazy thinking that they are mutually exclusive.

I agree, as long as it's done in a way that doesn't interfere with the pedestrian experience, like hiding it behind a building or putting it underground. If too many parking lots or garages are built on the street, the scale of a place begins to enlarge away from what feels comfortable and engaging to people.

What I disagree with is that having abundant parking is the key for future Plaza District development. People don't visit the Plaza because it's easy to park there, they visit because it's an awesome walkable district scaled to human beings. Currently, there is no parking problem in the area (at least I have never had an issue finding a spot, I visit the plaza frequently). If it expands with the pedestrian experience as the number one priority, people will find a way to get there regardless of how much parking there is or isn't.

I agree, as long as it's done in a way that doesn't interfere with the pedestrian experience, like hiding it behind a building or putting it underground. If too many parking lots or garages are built on the street, the scale of a place begins to enlarge away from what feels comfortable and engaging to people.

What I disagree with is that having abundant parking is the key for future Plaza District development. People don't visit the Plaza because it's easy to park there, they visit because it's an awesome walkable district scaled to human beings. Currently, there is no parking problem in the area (at least I have never had an issue finding a spot, I visit the plaza frequently). If it expands with the pedestrian experience as the number one priority, people will find a way to get there regardless of how much parking there is or isn't.

When people say parking problem in Oklahoma what they're really saying is I have to walk more than 50 yards and that's unacceptable.

When people say parking problem in Oklahoma what they're really saying is I have to walk more than 50 yards and that's unacceptable.
I'm not saying Plaza needs parking garages. but for me it isn't about not wanting to walk. there are times where people are parked on both sides of a street two block into the neighborhoods and around all corners. trying to pass through those areas is difficult and only allows for one direction of traffic and at times no place for someone "meeting" you on the street to pull over to let you pass. we have districts that are becoming locations people want to go and they don't live in a walkable distance and sadly our public transportation isn't such to get you there reasonably. If we are meeting friends in the plaza we UBER as we do to most places similar but a bit of parking here and there doesn't hurt if done correctly.

20 floors now complete:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bok111416.jpg

20 floors now complete:

20 stories in the Plaza District and they are complaining about four on the corner of 16th and Classen :)

Yeah I disagree as well, but what do I know..

As the popularity of an area goes up so does the demand for parking, as the number of parking lots go up, walkability and quality of an area can diminish. where is the happy medium? is it possible to build a neighborhood that's amazing for both pedestrians and cars or must you sacrifice one for the other?

I guess that would depend on the scale of the area that people are interested in visiting. Plaza is well-proportioned to serve the neighborhoods in the immediate vicinity, but it's become very attractive to everyone in the metro because the neighborhoods in the suburbs have no districts of their own. So long as that is the case, or there aren't larger popular areas, Plaza's gonna be packed. It's popularity is a symptom of success, it's over-crowdedness is a symptom of sprawl. Just my opinion!

I couldn't find the thread for this project, but it's great to see that this will result in a mixed-use development.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5526480?access=8c5f220362b6ad640d5e5c6c1ce4b91d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_theoklahoman

However, I really disagree with this statement. I don't think parking is key to the district, but maybe there's something I'm missing... It just seems like if the Plaza District keeps it up with quality urban devlopments, people will find a way there...http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/lead630-59333ec11be4db20166c9bc65c88eb1b.jpg


Great building.

Saw that the foundation work has begun on the retail/office space building to the west of Chiltepes. Woohoo!