Now that the city has made it's statement, are there other entities waiting in the wings to dovetail their projects with MAPs development?
Any companies waiting for something like this to tip the scale as they weigh decisions to relocate here, etc?

Look for that to come once the projects become closer to actual construction. The other major worry from the developers is the economy in general. Lets say a company wanted to build a condo tower along the park, they might have a very hard time securing financing for a significantly speculative project like that right now. Hopefully, as time goes on, credit will become reasonably available and private investment will add another billion or 2 to the downtown area. I hope the C of C and the City will be concentrating on publicizing the city, what has been accomplished, whawt is to come and pitch it for corporate relocations. MAPS3 and the previous MAPS projects are exactly the kind of thing businesses look for when searching for a can-do city to move to.

This should solidify OCU's desire to move their law school downtown. They were waiting to see what MAPS 3 did. So they should begin moving forward on that plan now, which will result in renovations to the Fred Jones building.

Look for that to come once the projects become closer to actual construction. The other major worry from the developers is the economy in general. Lets say a company wanted to build a condo tower along the park, they might have a very hard time securing financing for a significantly speculative project like that right now. Hopefully, as time goes on, credit will become reasonably available and private investment will add another billion or 2 to the downtown area. I hope the C of C and the City will be concentrating on publicizing the city, what has been accomplished, whawt is to come and pitch it for corporate relocations. MAPS3 and the previous MAPS projects are exactly the kind of thing businesses look for when searching for a can-do city to move to.The down economy is also a two-edged sword. Credit; not so good. Project costs (at least in the shorter term); good. Lot's of hungry contractors (i.e. Thunder practice facility).

This should solidify OCU's desire to move their law school downtown. They were waiting to see what MAPS 3 did. So they should begin moving forward on that plan now, which will result in renovations to the Fred Jones building.

This will undoubtedly result in either law firms building office buildings nearby or private developers building office towers next to the law school to accommodate law firms which would want to be located nearby. OCU Law will be a game changer for downtown for sure.

The down economy is also a two-edged sword. Credit; not so good. Project costs (at least in the shorter term); good. Lot's of hungry contractors (i.e. Thunder practice facility).

That should be true so the oversight committees better be doing their jobs getting the most bang for the buck. Inflation is inevitable so this could offset some of those future inflation-driven added costs.

I think we will see this. Not tomorrow, but in the coming months and years.

This will undoubtedly result in either law firms building office buildings nearby or private developers building office towers next to the law school to accommodate law firms which would want to be located nearby. OCU Law will be a game changer for downtown for sure.

Mid,

What impact do you think there will be on all of that if they decide to move the County Jail? Especially if it is on the edge of the 10 miles that one article mentioned?

Mid,

What impact do you think there will be on all of that if they decide to move the County Jail? Especially if it is on the edge of the 10 miles that one article mentioned?

It's hard to say. I don't really know what's being planned or if they're going to move the criminal courts out to Choctaw. It'll make it more expensive and more time consuming to do criminal law, so ultimately, I think either way, fewer folks will be willing to do criminal law. Especially folks who only do just a little bit of it.

Mid,

What impact do you think there will be on all of that if they decide to move the County Jail? Especially if it is on the edge of the 10 miles that one article mentioned?

I'm not mid, but I would anticipate an increase in appearances via closed circuit video proceedings between the jail and the courthouse. these are already in use in OK Co. courts and elsewhere to limit some risks and manpower issues re transport back and forth of the the jumpsuit brigade.

This will undoubtedly result in either law firms building office buildings nearby or private developers building office towers next to the law school to accommodate law firms which would want to be located nearby. OCU Law will be a game changer for downtown for sure.

Plenty of office space existing downtown...I don't know how much new construction will take place...?

Plenty of office space existing downtown...I don't know how much new construction will take place...?

And more to come when Devon vacates their current locations to move to the new building. Hopefully, new businesses will find downtown the "place to be" rather than the convenience of the suburbs and fill that empty space.

I think more of the new investment downtown will be more of the apartment and condo type in the short run.

I think more of the new investment downtown will be more of the apartment and condo type in the short run.

Do you mean in building them or selling/renting the ones already available?

While job hunting and looking for a place to relocate my grandmother, I've found that there's a glut of empty apartments and condos in the downtown area.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to build more while so many existing ones remain empty.

Once the park and convention center are underway, I am talking about new developments around those or between the park and the river. Things are slow now, but in 2 years they will hopefully be picking up. That glut is why I don't really see much going on immediately. Creditors who would lend money for such projects would know about it too.

Once the park and convention center are underway, I am talking about new developments around those or between the park and the river. Things are slow now, but in 2 years they will hopefully be picking up. That glut is why I don't really see much going on immediately. Creditors who would lend money for such projects would know about it too.

Put that on top of the likely economic recovery picking up over the next two years. Things should be starting to really pick up at the perfect time. Timing isn't everything, but it sure is helpful. It appears that if they are on target, this was probably the perfect time to pass MAPS.

Now if they can lock in some contracts before inflation or demand for construction labor picks up...great.

Momentum is also a huge draw for bringing in businesses from the outside. New jobs, a better impression of OKC for prospective businesses and families that may have OKC on their radar, now.

Saw Mike Carrier (CVB Director) at the Chamber watch party last night. He commented that even before MAPS passed, he already had architects and developers contact him about the Convention Center. Said he expected a lot more calls today and in the ensuing weeks. People across the country were watching us yesterday, as much as it pains some people to believe that. MAPS is a BIG deal.

I'd venture to say that most sizeable A-E firms are scouring verbiage, concept plans, community area plans, and any other source of information leading to work regarding MAPs 3...probably have been for a while. To just get a feel for the scope, both fiscally and conceptually will help them begin to put together a pitch.

I've found that there's a glut of empty apartments and condos in the downtown area.

For sale condos, yes, but I don't think there's a glut of apartments for rent. That supply is fairly limited.

Park Harvey
Legacy
Deep Deuce
and a few small buildings with a few lofts

Things will pick up downtown when the economy improves. The more that's built and the more things that are being planned downtown, the more attractive it will be for people looking for a different residential experience. I'm not worried. I think we'll see a boom in downtown housing over the next 10 years. It's a fun place to live, but it takes a little bit of a spirit of adventure right now. Someday we'll have a grocery store, a pharmacy, etc, and people will wonder why they didn't move down earlier.

Yes I heard a rumor that XXXX is moving here due to the fab seniors aquatic center and muddy kayak eddys!

Yes I heard a rumor that XXXX is moving here due to the fab seniors aquatic center and muddy kayak eddys!
Outstanding! Heard the same rumor that the AARP is moving it's headquarters to our fair city. Guess that makes it official.

...

Ah hears Dixie Chicks muzak.

The down economy is also a two-edged sword. Credit; not so good. Project costs (at least in the shorter term); good. Lot's of hungry contractors (i.e. Thunder practice facility).
"Things" are not "on sale" in the building industry as much as the general public would like to think, when prices were high everyone was building on the credit bubble, supplies were tight because of demand. By now most manufacturers have closed plants and laid off people and severely cut production to bring the market more in line with demand, so supply wise, there really aren't any great bargains out there at this time, the market already adjusted after a year. In the labor market, many have headed back to where they came from (either other states or countries) so the abundance of labor is not there like it once was but still a little more elastic than the supply market.

I am fighting the perception of everything being on sale on a couple of projects. The ones who are willing to go "lowball" on everything have already pretty much gone out of business. There were many "contractors" who got into the business when things were going nuts, mostly they were nothing but money people who started firms with the people who knew how to build, most of those people have lost their jobs and/or gone on to stable firms by now. Mainly because the money people sucked what they could out of those companies even faster than the credit could keep up and then filed bankruptcy, leaving the building people and lawyers to clean up the mess. I know of several that have gone through this in the Central Texas area.

I have one project that for the past year bids have come in consistently between 4-6 million, once in March and just a month ago, the owner still wants it for two million and is determined to shop it to anyone who will look at it in hopes of finding his price. Pretty much, if he finds someone to build it for the price he wants, that is when he really needs to start worrying, it won't be finished for that price, I can guarantee you of that.

Hence the "shorter term". I agree with most of what you said, but labor can fill back in like water when there are jobs to be had...many are still here.

Yes, labor is definitely the more elastic of the two.

I am just a bit tired of explaining to people why things aren't as cheap as they perceive they should be. One thing I tell them, is to quit paying attention to the "doom & gloom" of the national news, things are never as bad as they make it out to be and that is especially the case in Oklahoma and Texas. Then I ask then if they have halved their prices because of the recession...they usually stammer trying to come up with something to say at that point.

MAPS3 Passage Seals Deal For Private Development - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=11652502)

News9 remembers.. they're going to start off tonight with the OCU Law deal that was contingent on MAPS.

Wow, this is exciting. It will do a lot to continue the momentum started by the Film District in the western part of downtown.

"OCU officials said they'll begin working with the building's owners on getting architecture proposals Friday and hope to break ground by the summer. City leaders said, in a way, the efforts may make it the first MAPS3 "project" to get off the ground."

I personally didn't favor moving OCU Law to downtown, but I'm a bit excited now myself.

I think OCU really really needs to focus on creating a campus environment. I would love to see NW23rd around Penn and Blackwelder grow into a Campus Corner type of neighborhood.

I personally didn't favor moving OCU Law to downtown, but I'm a bit excited now myself.

I think OCU really really needs to focus on creating a campus environment. I would love to see NW23rd around Penn and Blackwelder grow into a Campus Corner type of neighborhood.

I've thought the same for almost two decades.

My only reservation still with OCU Law moving downtown is that having a streetcar line go out to Classen Blvd is really not convenient.. I would kind of think that the best linear route for a streetcar line would be up and down Walker Ave, from C2S up to Plaza Court. That would be a west edge. The east edge would be another excellent linear route, Lincoln Blvd.. just link those two and then you've got a great loop.

My only reservation still with OCU Law moving downtown is that having a streetcar line go out to Classen Blvd is really not convenient..

YES. In fact, it will be a mistake if they "force" the street car to fit the law school. That's what I was referring to in another thread about a pure, organic design process, without interference from powerful interests.

If the street car line makes sense in the context of the law school, great! If it causes the route design to be anything beyond what it should be, no dice. Hopefully cool and rational heads will be leading this process, and hopefully it is not a process marked by undue political interference.

Honestly, a Classen Blvd circuit may even be a good idea. The problem is this: With only $120 million for 6 miles, we can't afford to go out that far.

Classen would have to be a phase 2 segment in order for this to work.

I was never under the impression that they were wanting the streetcar to connect the main campus and the law campus.

They just want to make sure law students have that option for getting to the courthouse.

I was never under the impression that they were wanting the streetcar to connect the main campus and the law campus.

They just want to make sure law students have that option for getting to the courthouse.

I think the discussion was about whether it makes sense to route the rail all the way to Classen, not connecting the two campuses.

Okay sorry. I misread.

Well if we go with spokes as opposed to loops, it could make more sense, with one running along Sheridan from Classen to Lincoln or so.

Soonerguru is right.

My only reservation still with OCU Law moving downtown is that having a streetcar line go out to Classen Blvd is really not convenient.. I would kind of think that the best linear route for a streetcar line would be up and down Walker Ave, from C2S up to Plaza Court. That would be a west edge. The east edge would be another excellent linear route, Lincoln Blvd.. just link those two and then you've got a great loop.

Except for the crazy people doing the JD/MBA program, a law student's interaction with the rest of the school involves nothing more than visiting the bookstore once or twice a semester and visiting the admin building to get student IDs made and to fill out financial aid stuff. Otherwise, the law school is self-contained. A Classen rail line might be a good idea. God knows there's plenty of right of way to do that. But the law school is not really a consideration.

Here's the point: We only have 6 miles of rail, tops. We won't have the most efficient service area across downtown if we go a mile west of downtown, out to Classen.

I'm not sure Foshee has decided to run again. Last time I talked to him about it he was undecided at best.

One of the biggest private developments associated with the passage will probably be the convention hotel(s?), but we have a bit of time before we look to that...

I'm sure the big names in convention hotels were keeping an eye on OKC, though!

One of the biggest private developments associated with the passage will probably be the convention hotel(s?), but we have a bit of time before we look to that...

I'm sure the big names in convention hotels were keeping an eye on OKC, though!

That is also an excellent point. The convention hotel, whatever kind of deal they're going to get from the city and the convention center, should all be determined before we break ground on the convention here in 6-7 years, and that will be a very controversial, contentious debate no doubt. The two should open simultaneously though.

Here's the point: We only have 6 miles of rail, tops. We won't have the most efficient service area across downtown if we go a mile west of downtown, out to Classen.

But the point of developing rail isn't just to serve existing areas, but to provide redevelopment potential for underutilized areas in close proximity. The mixed use, medium to high-rise buildings that could spring up would more than make up for the initial lack of riders.

Actually, if we connect the law school to the system, we might guarantee ourselves a steady supply of riders. Think about the easy connection between not only the school and downtown, but also Bricktown. Taking the streetcar would be much easier than driving over there.

Not as knowledgeable as I'd like to be about the Arts Festival, but is there a relevant entity that'd be willing to $upport the city regarding their future site (Central Park)?

Not as knowledgeable as I'd like to be about the Arts Festival, but is there a relevant entity that'd be willing to $upport the city regarding their future site (Central Park)?

The Project 180/Myriad Gardens refurbishment will include elements with the Festival in mind -- it will be in its current location for a while...

I'm not sure Foshee has decided to run again. Last time I talked to him about it he was undecided at best.

I think that's the "Lawyer Speak" in him, there's another very capable person that's seriously considering a run, if that person decides against running, I think Foshee is in.

Foshee will be back. I have no doubt about that.


But the point of developing rail isn't just to serve existing areas, but to provide redevelopment potential for underutilized areas in close proximity. The mixed use, medium to high-rise buildings that could spring up would more than make up for the initial lack of riders.

That's a great point. The counter to that point however is that pretty much all of downtown still has a lot of room for infill development. We just need to focus on a system. Not connecting points or anything. We just need a system that serves downtown in general. That will help encourage the most organic infill as a result.


Actually, if we connect the law school to the system, we might guarantee ourselves a steady supply of riders. Think about the easy connection between not only the school and downtown, but also Bricktown. Taking the streetcar would be much easier than driving over there.

See this is the problem with special interests though is that they're all valid. You could say that we should just build a system that gets OHC and Capitol workers into downtown, and you could say good idea. Or a system that gets Devon workers around downtown to encourage them to live there. Or a system that accentuates getting people to city hall, "because that's where the people's business is." And so on. Yeah, it's true that the law school could have a lot of riders that you want to get around downtown.. but it's too much of an outlier at this point..far from anything else.

I can also see an argument: Do we reward the forward thinkers who have been redeveloping Broadway for their prescience and willingness to take a chance, or do we put the line on Hudson in an attempt to generate development in that area? Will that discourage foot traffic and further development on Broadway in favor of the western part of the city?

Yeah there's going to be a lot of competing interests on this. It needs to be the most logical route through downtown and midtown and probably over to Lincoln. It shouldn't snake around to hit all the rich guys' offices.

Well it sounds like we're agreed on Lincoln?

If that's the case, then we could do Broadway too, but that would have to be the western edge of the loop.

What about rewarding entrepreneurs who took a chance on MidTown?

I would think, with it's proximity to SoSA, St. Anthony's as well as Heritage Hills and Mesta Park, that Midtown would be a worthy stop.

At the very least, if nothing else, there needs to be a link that runs from a Midtown aquatic center with a stop located in front of Dougs house. That would be nice, and I know for a fact it would be deeply appreciated.

at the very least, if nothing else, there needs to be a link that runs from a midtown aquatic center with a stop located in front of dougs house. That would be nice, and i know for a fact it would be deeply appreciated.

lol!!!!