Oklahoman offers ?paid volunteer leave? for employees campaigning for MAPS 3 | OKG Scene.com (http://tinyurl.com/yzscowf)

I guess that is putting money where their mouth is. I appreciate when someone does something tangible to advance something.

The Oklahoman is a private enterprise and its ownership is entitled to offer whatever it wants to its employees.

We all know that the Oklahoman's brass is in support of MAPS. You can learn that from their editorial page. The Gazette is also fairly pro-MAPS, but the Gazette has been asking a lot more critical questions than the Oklahoman has.

I think though that the Gazette article about the Oklahoman's offer to its employees is a somewhat misleading attempt to point out unprofessional journalism on the part of their main competitor. The Oklahoman offers paid volunteer leave for doing a lot of things out in the community because it makes them look good.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they offered paid volunteer leave for campaign AGAINST (although I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't either, it's just a possibility). I would reckon though that the Oklahoman, probably a large bastion of non fire/police union workers, doesn't have too many AGAINST the measure.

I would certainly hope that the Gazette also offers paid volunteer leave to employees who are volunteering in the community, at least for non-political volunteer gigs, which is what applies to the Oklahoman's newsroom.

The Oklahoman hasnt been professional in journalism in recent history.

The Oklahoman is a private enterprise and its ownership is entitled to offer whatever it wants to its employees.

Yes, but unfortunately it masquerades as a forum for professional journalism also. I guess no one should be suprised when the head of the Chamber of Commerce is the head of the local paper also. I wonder how many other times the employees have been offered this option or is this just a one shot deal. I know what I'd bet on.

Yes, but unfortunately it masquerades as a forum for journalism also. I guess no one should be suprised when the head of the Chamber of Commerce is the head of the local paper also. I wonder how many other times the employees have been offered this option or is this just a one shot deal. I know what I'd bet on.

lol good bet.

Yes, but unfortunately it masquerades as a forum for professional journalism also. I guess no one should be suprised when the head of the Chamber of Commerce is the head of the local paper also. I wonder how many other times the employees have been offered this option or is this just a one shot deal. I know what I'd bet on.

The newsroom, aka the arm of the Oklahoman that "masquerades as a forum for professional journalism" was informed to disregard the memo and has never gotten paid volunteer leave for political campaigns in the past, either.

You would have known that if you read the article, instead you chose to leave a comment that showed how woefully uninformed you are. Keep 'em coming I suppose.

lol good bet.

Yeah, I've got family that works in management there. I think I already know the answer.

The newsroom, aka the arm of the Oklahoman that "masquerades as a forum for professional journalism" was informed to disregard the memo and has never gotten paid volunteer leave for political campaigns in the past, either.

You would have known that if you read the article, instead you chose to leave a comment that showed how woefully uninformed you are. Keep 'em coming I suppose.

Well since your so informed on the daily operation of the local paper, answer the question. I don't care if it's the newsroom, the print room or the delivery people. I don't care which employment division you pull them from. How often have they been offered this option in the past?

The Police and Fire Union Presidents are paid by the City and they are free to voice their oposistion, how is that OK.

The Police and Fire Union Presidents are paid by the City and they are free to voice their opposition, how is that OK.

I think they're paid by union dues?!

Good for the Gazette for publishing this on a non-publication (today, they generally publish on Wednesdays) day. Here's a crop of the part that I found most interesting ...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/gazette_12_4_crop.jpg

You will note my comment. I have maintained all along, and do today, that the blending of the press and government has been and is an inappropriate conflict of interest, particularly so when editorial policy influences its news gathering and dissemination, which it has.

At least one person in the OPUBCO organization who is in a position of authority would seem to agree.

ON EDIT: The Gazette's story has now been expanded to report on Thompson's response.

Additionally, this was reported in Poynter On-Line. Wikipedia says that the Poynter Institute ... Poynter Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poynter_Institute) ...


The Poynter Institute is a school and resource for journalism located in St. Petersburg, Florida. It is the owner of the company that publishes the St. Petersburg Times and Florida Trend Magazine. It is in close proximity to the Nelson Poynter Memorial Library on the University of South Florida St. Petersburg campus. It was founded in May 1975 by Nelson Poynter, chairman of the St. Petersburg Times and Congressional Quarterly bearing the name Modern Media Institute. [1] In 1984 it changed to The Poynter Institute for Media Studies.

There are 2 links to Poynter On-Line about this:

The main article (http://www.poynter.org/column.asp?id=45&aid=174353) (which does not include the follow-up stuff) ... not that the article's "tag" is "Ethics"

The feedback page (http://www.poynter.org/article_feedback/article_feedback_list.asp?user=&id=174353#31126) which includes a good bit more.

I think the biggest problem is the implied expectation that their employees should use their 3 days of "community volunteer time" to support this cause. I wonder if an employee wanted to use their time to campaign against MAPS if the offer still stood. It certainly didn't say it would.

I think they're paid by union dues?!

The union heads are paid by taxpayers. Phil Sipe (fire) is paid $98,000 and his total benefits package costs the taxpayers $120,000. Gil Hensley (police) is paid $91,000 and his total; benefits package costs the taxpayers $115,000. In the current police contract negotiations that are the root of all this mess, the police are demanding a SECOND taxpayer-funded union employee.

Back to putting up more signs.

The union heads are paid by taxpayers. Phil Sipe (fire) is paid $98,000 and his total benefits package costs the taxpayers $120,000. Gil Hensley (police) is paid $91,000 and his total; benefits package costs the taxpayers $115,000. In the current police contract negotiations that are the root of all this mess, the police are demanding a SECOND taxpayer-funded union employee.

Back to putting up more signs.

Are they not working in those respected positions?
I mean do they not work as firefighters and police officers that serve duty?

For MAPS3 (I am, with reservations) or against MAPS3....this is an embarrassment.

Many corporations have volunteer day compensation, but they certainly don't include political campaigns in that definition! It's to work for groups that need volunteers to supplement United Way funds (as an example). For this to be a newspaper who has been editorially over-the-top on this election offering this to employees is unbelievable. For this to be a newspaper whose publisher is the Chamber head in the MAPS campaign makes it beyond belief.

As Doug pointed out, this is getting national attention for the blatant ethical issues involved. Is there no shame from these people who seem to show a desperation for passage of this thing?

I'm voting YES despite the incestuous and good old boy club giving me every reason not to.

Maybe the Washington Post will issue a memo in 2012 allowing employees a day off to volunteer for (what they would say) is the all-important re-election of President Obama. Wouldn't we all think that would be despicable? Yet, some seem to think the city's daily newspaper, published by the chamber head, to issue a similar memo on an election of self-interest is somehow okay???? Really????

So Mike, where were you when the Washington Post let all of their workers off for the inauguration?

It's just the way that newspapers are getting to be these days man. Journal Record > Gazette > Oklahoman (sans Lackmeyer who is a GREAT writer/reporter).

So Mike, where were you when the Washington Post let all of their workers off for the inauguration?

It's just the way that newspapers are getting to be these days man. Journal Record > Gazette > Oklahoman (sans Lackmeyer who is a GREAT writer/reporter).

If they did it for Obama and didn't for Bush, it's wrong. But not nearly as bad as them paying employees their salaries with a memo telling them they can go campaign for Obama on the company dime.

Really, I'm honestly blown away that ANYBODY (for or against this MAPS election) can defend this. It's simply a memo that will embarrass The Oklahoman for years to come, as well it should.

Well I think that Kelly Fry needs to be promoted, because if NOT for her, the Oklahoman would be looking much, much worse than it is now.

I think they're paid by union dues?!

No, they do not work as police or fire officers, they work solely as union bosses, officing out of their union lodges.

The union heads are paid by taxpayers. Phil Sipe (fire) is paid $98,000 and his total benefits package costs the taxpayers $120,000. Gil Hensley (police) is paid $91,000 and his total; benefits package costs the taxpayers $115,000.

Geez. No wonder we can't afford more cops. Pretty ridiculous salary for someone who didn't even need to graduate high school to qualify.

Maybe the Washington Post will issue a memo in 2012 allowing employees a day off to volunteer for (what they would say) is the all-important re-election of President Obama. Wouldn't we all think that would be despicable?

A partisan election with candidates involved is a whole other story. Plus, the newsroom--the journalists are excluded from this offer, so I don't see the issue.

A partisan election with candidates involved is a whole other story. Plus, the newsroom--the journalists are excluded from this offer, so I don't see the issue.

Oh, I very much disagree. If anything, it's worse than any election for a candidate! In local elections ballot/tax initiatives are far more important than any single office. Especially in Oklahoma City when the elective offices take a back seat in a Council/Manager form of local government. These come with big contracts for local business who have connections with the head of the chamber, who led for the MAPS 3 campaign and is also publisher of the newspaper! The journalists being excluded, I am guessing, was a second thought after the storm of criticism began. But regardless, the newspaper has many employees beyond the journalists and putting them to use as a ground army in a GOTV operation and at the same time publishing the city's only daily newspaper is just wrong.

Hey, I'm for MAPS! But I fail to see why other people supporting MAPS can't admit that this crosses the line. It's an incestuous relationship involved with electoral politics, and whether that's for a candidate or for an initiative with lucrative contracts....it's wrong.

Hey, I'm for MAPS! But I fail to see why other people supporting MAPS can't admit that this crosses the line. It's an incestuous relationship involved with electoral politics, and whether that's for a candidate or for an initiative with lucrative contracts....it's wrong.
At least mike can admit it! like little sheep you all are....BAAAAAAA

It's bad folks no matter what side you are on. Follow the money! It's a shame. This City is in trouble as long as our current leaders foster this CLOSE city government/Private business relationship. The lines get blurred to easily and then citizens get left behind.

If we were voting for something that could MAKE this city money. Like a NASCAR track or the largest amusement park in the world. I'd understand a little more and I'm not a NASCAR fan. Voting for MONEY pits? I just don't understand this stuff. I guess people from all around this country are going to come to OKC and use our FREE park, trails, and aquatic centers....LOL..What a joke.

That's what's happening. Why do you think they've garnered every connected person they can think of and are running dramatic speeches and commercials.

Oh well. A few short days and we'll be done. Whether it's MAPS YES OR NO. The same disgusting relationship will be steering this city and not it's citizens. Only a select few and that's truly a shame.

At least mike can admit it! like little sheep you all are....BAAAAAAA

It's bad folks no matter what side you are on. Follow the money! It's a shame. This City is in trouble as long as our current leaders foster this CLOSE city government/Private business relationship. The lines get blurred to easily and then citizens get left behind.

That's what's happening. Why do you think they've garnered every connected person they can think of and are running dramatic speeches and commercials.

Oh well. A few short days and we'll be done. Whether it's MAPS YES OR NO. The same disgusting relationship will be steering this city and not it's citizens. Only a select few.

No, it won't be a select few. When MAPS passes it will be due to the will of the voters. And we will all benefit when our city's tax base expands, our property values rise, our city becomes more of a destination for visitors and new residents, and we have more economic opportunity.

Who really cares who is involved with the planning if it benefits our city?

Oklahoma City is on a roll, and there's no reason to stop now. Our best days are ahead, and we are going to pass MAPS and keep moving forward.

what is really sick is "PAID VOLUNTERR TIME OFF" that is sick that this world has come to PAYING people to volunterr because they dont care enough about thier issues to do it for free.

I think everyone can agree on that

I and i know hundreds of no people have VOLUNTEERED MANY hours I riks losing my part time job because i have spent all my free time trying to keep my DREAM job that i have had since i was 4. but thats ok since you get a park you can sit in in the tall grass because the parks department took a budget cut and already cant maintain it.

I am glad to see some people against the OKLAHOMAN on this. I would understand if they gave both equal sides of the story instead of runing a 4 page bash on the fd. thats sad.

but i guess no matter where you look you will never have media that is truely nuetral and that sucsk for both parties.

I have lost much sleep over our 40 personal budget cut because my neck is on the chopping block and my family has suffered as well. All we want is more needs instead of wants. put more fireman on the streets to help the manning. have you noticed for the past 2 months of so there has been 1-5 FIRE A DAY in OKC. some crews make multiple fires. while yes thats what we get paid for and i am glad god gave me the opportunity to be where i am in this city working for you guys but sometimes being able to go on vacation is nice too. shoot a day off without being told the day before you have to come in would be nice.

same with police. we want help. lets get our parks department up to par so the day that we come out of a 12% sales tax revenue decrease for 9 straight months we can build a park.

Just because some of the stuff doenst get built right now doesnt mean we are going to quit. I myself would love some of the stuff it offers but not at this time.

It sad to see the mayor lie to the citizens to turn them against the fd in which is only here for the citizens and are some of their only healthcare.

Well i really hope maps fails and the city ca sit down and see what happened and reorganize and attack this again a different way with different features. until then i am going to be stressing as the Jan 1 2010 budget cuts take affect, not to mention the 3-4% budget cuts in JULY 2010 as well.

has anyone heard of a "taxpayers Lawsuit" just wondering if there is one. I do know that in 1989 a 3/4 cent sales tax was passed to give OCFD 200 additional firefighters to what they had then. well we are at the number, what happens if they lay off 40 and we fall below that number. isnt that a violation of the city by collecting taxes when the funds are to go someplace but those positions are lost. just wondering. i nkow some are lawyers around here.

really please vote no.

have lost much sleep over our 40 personal budget cut because my neck is on the chopping block and my family has suffered as well. All we want is more needs instead of wants. put more fireman on the streets to help the manning. have you noticed for the past 2 months of so there has been 1-5 FIRE A DAY in OKC. some crews make multiple fires. while yes thats what we get paid for and i am glad god gave me the opportunity to be where i am in this city working for you guys but sometimes being able to go on vacation is nice too. shoot a day off without being told the day before you have to come in would be nice.

Your department has sustained a 2 percent cut, the same as all city government. TWO PERCENT. IN the WORST ECONOMIC CONDITIONS SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

No pay cut. No layoffs. Not even furloughs.

You don't live in reality if you think this is bad. For people in state government, the average budget cut is 12 percent. People are being furloughed. People are getting fired. People are working overtime without pay.

Get a grip. Even people in the private sector are suffering.

We know how much cops and fire get paid. They get paid well, as they should.

This recession will end, and if MAPS is passed, our city will continue to grow its revenue base, and pay raises and additional personnel will be possible.

NO PAY CUT NO LAYOFF NO FURLOUGHS. ar you kidding the mayor has threatned all that on us. Fire gets paid well as you make your rank the same as the military or any other job. I understand people in the private secotr is suffereing but how is hiring a bunch of mexicans who cant speak english going to help the economy? those truley are the only ones who want the kinds of jobs that maps will creat in any near futures. dont believe me. go talk to the paving crews. wait they are to poor for your likes. our city has grown

and we have not been alowed to increas personal to a safe number. WHY CANT YOU SEE THIS. probalby becuase your job does nothing more then answer phione, place on hold. take message. repeat. oh and grab the newspaper fo your boss to read. i now understand.

and we have not been alowed to increas personal to a safe number. WHY CANT YOU SEE THIS. probalby becuase your job does nothing more then answer phione, place on hold. take message. repeat. oh and grab the newspaper fo your boss to read. i now understand.

My job is really nothing like this.

EXACLTY> i dont know what goes on in your job and you dont ours. so when we say we need help from the people we serve we hope that they realize that we know our job better than the MAYOR or his helpers do.

NO PAY CUT NO LAYOFF NO FURLOUGHS. ar you kidding the mayor has threatned all that on us.

Wow. I'm sorry you're threatened. But for the rest of us, IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. Quit acting like you're so put upon compared to everyone else. You're not. And you don't seem to have any sympathy for anyone else.

Please remember that there are people who are going through this now and are suffering through the holiday.

There are currently no furloughs or pay cuts of OKC public safety employees. There are, however, many of those -- up to and including layoffs -- for many state employees and people in the private sector.

Also, you are making the FALSE assumption that OKC pro-MAPS voters would not support police and fire in your efforts to be better staffed. I admit you're making it harder to support you because you are trying to destroy an initiative that will help our city for your own personal needs. This is highly annoying. You can't see it because you're on the inside.

Why do you assume OKC citizens don't want to help you? Why do you insist on taking it out on MAPS? Can you not see how destructive -- and counterproductive -- this is?

MAPS failing will not lead to a raise for public safety.

I think you're seriously misguided and that your union leadership has made a major mistake in taking this approach.

ITs not about a raise. i dont care about my salary. i care about staffing. Maps will come back if it gets shut down. so if in march we made a propsition to RAISE taxes and give it to fire on top of this they citizens would go for it? NO they wont thats why a majority vote no. TAXES. I feel bad for the people that got laid off, my brother included many freidns in the oil field who have seen a decline. i understand Of course i dont want to be laid off. WHO WOULD.

like i said i want maps to fail not because my union told me to. (i not much a union person. bad respresentation when i was a child) i am doing this to hope the the MAYOR and CITY council sees what is needed why do we need to build grandstands at the boat house. let aubry. those are the things that makes you wonder.

ITs not about a raise. i dont care about my salary. i care about staffing. Maps will come back if it gets shut down. so if in march we made a propsition to RAISE taxes and give it to fire on top of this they citizens would go for it? NO they wont thats why a majority vote no. TAXES. I feel bad for the people that got laid off, my brother included many freidns in the oil field who have seen a decline. i understand Of course i dont want to be laid off. WHO WOULD.

like i said i want maps to fail not because my union told me to. (i not much a union person. bad respresentation when i was a child) i am doing this to hope the the MAYOR and CITY council sees what is needed why do we need to build grandstands at the boat house. let aubry. those are the things that makes you wonder.

This is not about building grandstands at the boathouse. If you think it is, I don't think we can have a reasonable conversation.

You want your staffing needs met now, and you will do anything to do it, including punishing the citizens by working to defeat MAPS.

1. Working to defeat MAPS does not solve your staffing problems. It doesn't address your staffing problems. It has no bearing on your staffing problems.
2. MAPS is not and has never been a funding source for city personnel. It is and always has been about developing infrastructure to improve the quality of life in our city.
3. Your efforts to defeat MAPS are creating enemies among constituencies that would normally support your efforts and needs.
4. If MAPS passes, and our city continues its momentum as a tourism destination as well as a destination for new companies and PEOPLE, the tax base will grow. This is the source of revenue that gives you a paycheck.

If you cannot sensibly address these questions, you're being dishonest with yourself and everyone on this board.

i can address all of them.
i think maps defeat will get the city to sit down and see what the city needs IE more fire personal and firestations that a study showed the city need for the size.

just becuase something has NEVER been used for a funding source doesnt mean it cant be. maybe we need to prioritize where our $777 millon is being spent. the boathouse grandstands was just an example to me of somethin that chesapeak should do. not the city. my opionion. i feel that the big companies are using the city to help them out more than anyone else. they arent as big as they are being dumb.

If people get mad at me and wont support me because of my PERSONL opions then shame on them. does that mean i shouldnt talk to my freinds who voted obama because i dont believe in his values. we arent against MAPS, we are against this maps right now. I am a transplant here but from what i saw with maps for kids.. awesome. lets give them more.

If our city is as recession proof as i have heard then we will grow. our sales tax revenue has been down 12% for past 9 months straight and they were hoping but doubtful that black friday would help. i didnt hear anything post then. tax base will grow when the programs that generate taxes come in. ie convention center, but when we have to compete with the lawns being mowed or grass being cut of a 70 acre park ontop of out numerous other parks then it wont grow by that much.

From day 1 on this job the fire chief said that we are the ONLY city department that is solely based on the citizens and we WORK for the citizens and he expects us to treat our employeers (YOU) as such.

we cant talk all day about this but my opions about how i see maps failing would help the CITY wont change. just like my political views on healthcare and abortion. You have your set ways and i do mine.

too me i think maps is sort of like a CITI bank bailout for our companies here. they big guys are going to get all the $$$ from this. thats my opion. the mayor while working for his advertising firm will be getting paid from people who use the firm he works for to advertise here. i see a problem with that.

1. You got another thing coming if you think your scorched earth tactics will get everyone to "sit down" and listen to your demands. This is not how to handle a negotiation. This is a last-ditch, bridge-burning approach.

2. MAPS is a temporary, not permanent, funding source. Therefore, it would not be appropriate to use for a permanent need, i.e. additional firefighters. It is designed to build infrastructure. Nothing else.

3. What I'm suggesting here is that your active anti-MAPS crusade is alienating you from the voters most likely to support you in the future (and by the way, a lot them voted for Obama). If you don't understand how that is bad politics, I don't know what to say. This isn't comparable to you and a buddy disagreeing on a vote in a presidential race.

4. Forbes said OKC is recession proof, but I laughed out loud when I read the article (as I would have if it were written about any other city.). The point here is that our tax base and city have improved dramatically after the passage of each MAPS vote. MAPS III will be just as transformative, as it addresses some of the things that will differentiate us from other cities, not just have us fighting to keep up. Further, the point is that the revenue that funds your pay check comes from the tax base. An expanded tax base helps you (and clearly a contracting tax base makes your life stressful). We need to move forward and police and fire will benefit just as much as anyone else from our city's continued growth.

And lastly, your comment about the big companies here benefitting from MAPS is a paranoid fantasy. How does, say, Chesapeake benefit from more hiking trails? Better public transit? Well, they do benefit because it becomes easier for them to recruit and retain workers, but there's no big financial payoff. And more, what would be bad about having our major employers make money? Isn't that what we want?

lets see chesapeak boat house. races, stands, they own land. hmmmm...

No its not a permantent funding source but why not use maps to help CITY departments avioding layoffs and budget cuts UNTIL the nation get out of the recession. i just dont see why you cant see what i am saying and i know i cant see what you are saying. but i really think that is the city is soooo broke they have to lay off public safety maybe we should find something to help that problem RIGHT NOW. not a park.

I think Chesapeake's interest in the boat house is more philanthropic than financial. I think McClendon owns land, but it, like the Humphreys, is south of the river, which makes it a completely separate area to be developed, and which will not be affected to any significant degree at all by MAPS.

I would have taken the city's use tax offer, and told them that, while it's a help, it's not enough and negotiations will be ongoing. That would be a win-win situation for your unions, whereas I see opposition to MAPS as a lose-lose one.

I've updated my Doug Dawgz Blog: Quo Vadis, Oklahoman? (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/11/quo-vadis-oklahoman.html) article to include the above developments. Screen shots of the update portion of the article appear below and they trace how this stuff came about ... all excepet one item .. WHERE did the original source, Poynter, get its stuff from ... from someone in the Oklahoman organization, presumably ...

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"This recession will end, and if MAPS is passed, our city will continue to grow its revenue base, and pay raises and additional personnel will be possible."

Yes, that all sounds reasonable and we have heard it before. Now where was that? Ah yes, it was with MAPS, MAPS for Kids and even the Ford (that quality of life factors would lead to a larger tax base, and more revenue for the City, staffing issues would be addressed). "A rising tide lifts all boats". The tax base did indeed increase, revenue increased (from the yearly average of $66M with MAPS to a projected $100M/year with the Ford & MAPS 3). So where did all of the money go? Where is the increased staffing?

I haven't looked at every claim the F&P have made in these threads (and don't have a dog in the fight) but the ones I did look up, support what they have been saying. According to the City's own budget reports they are operating at the same level as several years ago. The City has admitted that they are understaffed by 200 officers (mol). What have they offered with MAPS 3? Only under pressure did the City come forward and offer anything (and only through the accompanying use tax). That use tax "commitment" was only for the 1st couple of years of the 7.75 year tax. Would have only prevented the layoff of personnel. And the 20-27 that would be "added" would have still left them 170 (mol) short of current needs. And since it is a temporary tax, once the tax ends, the funding source and most likely the positions will go away as well. Once you tie in a temporary tax into this, then it becomes a safety issue and you can't ever let that funding source go.

1. Working to defeat MAPS does not solve your staffing problems. It doesn't address your staffing problems. It has no bearing on your staffing problems.
2. MAPS is not and has never been a funding source for city personnel. It is and always has been about developing infrastructure to improve the quality of life in our city.
Interesting! Flip...Flop....Isn't that what your commercial says. "MAPS WILL put more police and fire on the streets? Please explain? Which is it? It can't be both, surely you know your contradicting what's being said now.

3. Your efforts to defeat MAPS are creating enemies among constituencies that would normally support your efforts and needs.
What enemies? Is everyone who has a reasonable perspective or different opinion that you an ENEMY? A little immature are we? Don't worry you'll grow out of that.

4. If MAPS passes, and our city continues its momentum as a tourism destination as well as a destination for new companies and PEOPLE, the tax base will grow. This is the source of revenue that gives you a paycheck.

Refer to #2. Didn't you just say MAPS isn't a funding source? Then in #4 you say that it gives us our paycheck. You can't be serious. They will give anyone a vote. Listen you think people are going to be coming from all over for a CENTRAL PARK? SENIOR Aquatics CENTER? BIKE TRAILS and SIDEWALKS? :LolLolLol That's going to be a new package everyone. OKC travel package. You can battle the bums in central park or ride your bike on some bike trails or if you're old you can swim. Back up your family and get your checkbook. Come one! Come All! Oh yes...they'll be lining up! :LolLolLol

Refer to #2. Didn't you just say MAPS isn't a funding source? Then in #4 you say that it gives us our paycheck

Learn to read. MAPS is a temporary, not permanent, funding source. Police and fire need a permanent funding source.

I spelled it out very clearly for those who know how to read or aren't actively trying to twist information to suit their argument. That is what you do. That is what people who don't have a good argument do. You are one of those people.

Learn to read. MAPS is a temporary, not permanent, funding source. Police and fire need a permanent funding source.

I spelled it out very clearly for those who know how to read or aren't actively trying to twist information to suit their argument. That is what you do. That is what people who don't have a good argument do. You are one of those people.

Soonerguru please address LarryOKC's post above. You seem to want to address everything that Iron says, but shy away from the very good argument Larry makes. The same argument has been made by others and myself, but we never seem to get any answer to it. If the previous MAPS have been so successful, and I agree they have, where is the additional manpower the additional funding was supposed to bring? Why have we actually seen manpower decreases while the funding has gone up? Why should we believe the city leaders this time when history shows us they aren't telling the truth?

Soonerguru please address LarryOKC's post above. You seem to want to address everything that Iron says, but shy away from the very good argument Larry makes. The same argument has been made by others and myself, but we never seem to get any answer to it. If the previous MAPS have been so successful, and I agree they have, where is the additional manpower the additional funding was supposed to bring? Why have we actually seen manpower decreases while the funding has gone up? Why should we believe the city leaders this time when history shows us they aren't telling the truth?

Wambo, I do not work for the city or the city manager. I am a citizen here. I want our city to continue moving forward.

I have no understanding of the inner-working of city government. But I do need to decide whether staying in this city will be the best decision for my family. That's why I'm in support of MAPS.

When MAPS is passed, I would be interested in doing what I can to help fire and police, but it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

Didn't you just say MAPS isn't a funding source?

It's not. You will benefit from the increased tax base, not the MAPS fund itself. It's not so hard.

The point is, the failure of this proposition in no way gets you your increased manpower. You are voting against it to spite the city, and you are burning bridges with many who would have otherwise supported your cause.


Soonerguru please address LarryOKC's post above. You seem to want to address everything that Iron says, but shy away from the very good argument Larry makes. The same argument has been made by others and myself, but we never seem to get any answer to it.

We can address that issue, but it's irrelevant to MAPS 3. Had your unions not held the city and citizens hostage on MAPS 3, I and many other pro-MAPS types would have been lined up to support you on this issue. Now, we may be less inclined to do so because of the unions' tactics.

Whatever is done regarding fire and police, it would be a significant mistake to do it via a temporary funding source only.

The public safety crowd, though not within some beef, picked a baseball diamond to play soccer on, and then as fans showed up, basically starting telling them they are all nuts to be as happy as they are with the services they presently receive.

Not much wonder they don't seem to be making the progress they hoped to be making.

Hopefully, after the 8th, everyone can take a breath and figure out what can, and should, be done regarding PS desires. And do so in a context that makes way more sense than the past few weeks have.

"This recession will end, and if MAPS is passed, our city will continue to grow its revenue base, and pay raises and additional personnel will be possible."

Yes, that all sounds reasonable and we have heard it before. Now where was that? Ah yes, it was with MAPS, MAPS for Kids and even the Ford (that quality of life factors would lead to a larger tax base, and more revenue for the City, staffing issues would be addressed). "A rising tide lifts all boats". The tax base did indeed increase, revenue increased (from the yearly average of $66M with MAPS to a projected $100M/year with the Ford & MAPS 3). So where did all of the money go? Where is the increased staffing?

I haven't looked at every claim the F&P have made in these threads (and don't have a dog in the fight) but the ones I did look up, support what they have been saying. According to the City's own budget reports they are operating at the same level as several years ago. The City has admitted that they are understaffed by 200 officers (mol). What have they offered with MAPS 3? Only under pressure did the City come forward and offer anything (and only through the accompanying use tax). That use tax "commitment" was only for the 1st couple of years of the 7.75 year tax. Would have only prevented the layoff of personnel. And the 20-27 that would be "added" would have still left them 170 (mol) short of current needs. And since it is a temporary tax, once the tax ends, the funding source and most likely the positions will go away as well. Once you tie in a temporary tax into this, then it becomes a safety issue and you can't ever let that funding source go.

As has been stated several times, the same study that says the police are understaffed by 200 officers also states that if they switch from their current 10 hour day, 4 days a week schedule to the more common 8 hour day, 5 days a week schedule, they would be OVERSTAFFED by 78 officers,

As has been stated several times, the same study that says the police are understaffed by 200 officers also states that if they switch from their current 10 hour day, 4 days a week schedule to the more common 8 hour day, 5 days a week schedule, they would be OVERSTAFFED by 78 officers,Are you sure about your facts? Are you sure they work 10 hours a day, 4 days a week? You may be 100% correct. But I think your only 1/2 correct. But hey your batting .500

At least mike can admit it! like little sheep you all are....BAAAAAAA

It's bad folks no matter what side you are on. Follow the money! It's a shame. This City is in trouble as long as our current leaders foster this CLOSE city government/Private business relationship. The lines get blurred to easily and then citizens get left behind.

If we were voting for something that could MAKE this city money. Like a NASCAR track or the largest amusement park in the world. I'd understand a little more and I'm not a NASCAR fan. Voting for MONEY pits? I just don't understand this stuff. I guess people from all around this country are going to come to OKC and use our FREE park, trails, and aquatic centers....LOL..What a joke.

That's what's happening. Why do you think they've garnered every connected person they can think of and are running dramatic speeches and commercials.

Oh well. A few short days and we'll be done. Whether it's MAPS YES OR NO. The same disgusting relationship will be steering this city and not it's citizens. Only a select few and that's truly a shame.

Every city fosters a public/private relationship with local companies. It's how the world works. Those private companies employ people in the private world, people like me.

The $700 million that OKC just finished forking over for OKCPS improves the educational environment, but does it make the city MONEY? No, but what it does is create a better environment for children to thrive in learning.

Maybe you don't understand the concept of quality of life, but I do. There is a difference between some lame ass corner green patch that's called a "park" that has a swingset and monkey bars. Oklahoma City has enough of those.

More trails and a white water course? More opportunities for people to get outdoors. Maybe lop off some pounds and in turn lower their medical costs which lowers our medical costs, which means less 911 calls to emergency services whenever they have a medical breakdown from obesity or smoking their heads off, which leads to less stress on your staffing shortage. I mean, every smoker I've known who gets out and starts exercising begins complaining about their lung shortage, and eventually they push themselves to stop smoking.

New convention center? More convention BUSINESS. Who wants to set up exhibits in a boring concrete lockbox whose dimensions rarely meet today's convention standards? The ballrooms are just too damn small. But all conventions, by rule of thumb, bring in money from out of town. Well, what do ya know, it DOES make us money. A NASCAR track is a $1 billion venture that is taken on by private entreprenuers, not by the city.

As has been stated several times, the same study that says the police are understaffed by 200 officers also states that if they switch from their current 10 hour day, 4 days a week schedule to the more common 8 hour day, 5 days a week schedule, they would be OVERSTAFFED by 78 officers,

Someone help explain the math on that one (or post the info from the study). On the face, it doesn't seem to make any sense. Doesn't it take the same number of personnel to cover the shifts in any 24 hr period (no matter how the period is divided up)? By that I mean while more bodies are going in and out, at any one time there is the same number of bodies "clocked in".

Also, what F/P department works a "common 8 hour day, 5 days a week schedule"? This is common in the private sector but not in these types of positions. They work something like 2 days on and 3 days off (24 hrs shifts) don't they? Please correct if wrong on this.

Have seen articles that stated that it was cheaper for the City to continue with the admitted manpower shortage and pay over time etc than it would cost for additional employees and benefits.

Someone help explain the math on that one (or post the info from the study). On the face, it doesn't seem to make any sense. Doesn't it take the same number of personnel to cover the shifts in any 24 hr period (no matter how the period is divided up)? By that I mean while more bodies are going in and out, at any one time there is the same number of bodies "clocked in".

Also, what F/P department works a "common 8 hour day, 5 days a week schedule"? This is common in the private sector but not in these types of positions. They work something like 2 days on and 3 days off (24 hrs shifts) don't they? Please correct if wrong on this.

Have seen articles that stated that it was cheaper for the City to continue with the admitted manpower shortage and pay over time etc than it would cost for additional employees and benefits.

This disagreement is talking about POLICE STAFFING not FIRE, the police Departments of surrounding Cities work 8 hours shifts, and they don't have take home cars.

Your department has sustained a 2 percent cut, the same as all city government. TWO PERCENT. IN the WORST ECONOMIC CONDITIONS SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

No pay cut. No layoffs. Not even furloughs.

You don't live in reality if you think this is bad. For people in state government, the average budget cut is 12 percent. People are being furloughed. People are getting fired. People are working overtime without pay.

Get a grip. Even people in the private sector are suffering.

We know how much cops and fire get paid. They get paid well, as they should.

This recession will end, and if MAPS is passed, our city will continue to grow its revenue base, and pay raises and additional personnel will be possible.


Excuse me but what part of BUDGET CUT do you not understand???

Layoffs and furloughs are EXACTLY what Mr. Couch has been saying while going around the city in talks to the city employees and that is what Mr Couch is saying WILL HAPPEN! So are you saying Mr.Couch is lying? That the city is not cutting budgets, not facing furloughs, not laying off, not cutting pay by no raises but increased payouts for benefits? The city always says that the benefits package is a part of the city employees wage so if we get no raise and an increased fee to pay for benefits then ... ding ding ding... pay cut!

And actually, since there has been a hiring freeze (from The City of OKC's mouth) for almost a year then ding ding ding... that means we are short employees already from almost a year's worth of attrition. Attrition: a gradual reduction in work force without firing of personnel, as when workers resign or retire and are not replaced.

Yes, we are all hurting and in hurting times there are more crimes and who is going to come out and help if we do not have adequate staffing? Hmmm? And the new visitors this will bring? Who is going to protect them?

What great publicity I see in the future:

"Those dumb Okies passed a new tax for Visitor Frills and did not put in to place adequate funding for safety in an already safety short city so now crime is at an all time high in OKC and visitors are being mugged, shot, robbed, car jacked, etc. Do not visit OKC unless you like to visit in FEAR..."


That would just project us so favorably, now huh? World Class City at its best!

Again, we can't afford to pay for dinner so why are we buying dessert?

We actually have pretty decent crime statistics compared to most cities our size. I looked them up. Visitor frills actually put more money in the pockets of the police and fire departments, because those visitors pay 3/4 of a cent of every dollar they spend to the policemen and firemen. Anything that brings more visitors in to the city helps us all. Some cities like New Orleans (not that we have a chance of aspiring to be New Orleans in the tourism department) virtually run their cities on tourist dollars, so it's nothing to be sneezed at.

A rising tide lifts all boats. Anything that helps our city economy helps all of our city employees.

Excuse me but what part of BUDGET CUT do you not understand???

I understand perfectly well. That's why I mentioned the 2 percent cut. Learn to read and stop yelling. You may have cardiac arrest.


Layoffs and furloughs are EXACTLY what Mr. Couch has been saying while going around the city in talks to the city employees and that is what Mr Couch is saying WILL HAPPEN! So are you saying Mr.Couch is lying?

I wasn't aware of the plan, but if so, welcome to the club. Numerous state agencies are already doing these. In other states, people are getting laid off. Join the club. And I have had no commentary about Mr. Couch, so I don't know what you're talking about.


And actually, since there has been a hiring freeze (from The City of OKC's mouth) for almost a year then ding ding ding... that means we are short employees already from almost a year's worth of attrition. Attrition: a gradual reduction in work force without firing of personnel, as when workers resign or retire and are not replaced.

Oh, wow. A whole year. Well state government has had one since 1992. I feel so sorry for you. And wow, eliminating jobs by attrition. Again, you have it so rough considering the fact this happens everywhere else.


What great publicity I see in the future:

"Those dumb Okies passed a new tax for Visitor Frills and did not put in to place adequate funding for safety in an already safety short city so now crime is at an all time high in OKC and visitors are being mugged, shot, robbed, car jacked, etc. Do not visit OKC unless you like to visit in FEAR..."

You're so melodramatic. I don't suppose you read the New York Times, Washington Post, etc., but the amount of press our city has generated in the last few years, mostly due to MAPS, is staggering.

Quite contrary to your angry, hysterical post, I'm sure OKC will get very, very good press for becoming one of the elite destinations for rowing in the United States, for having the only wind-power-generated transit system, for having a world-class destination park, etc. We know this will happen because we've received great publicity for less. And the angle will be that we had the vision to do this despite the recession.

Now run along now, JustTheFacts. I can see with your FOUR WHOLE POSTS on this board you are a troll who has been sent here to politick. The regular users of this site aren't so dumb as to fall for your flimsy arguments. We know you're just another NTM troll.

We actually have pretty decent crime statistics compared to most cities our size. I looked them up. Visitor frills actually put more money in the pockets of the police and fire departments, because those visitors pay 3/4 of a cent of every dollar they spend to the policemen and firemen. Anything that brings more visitors in to the city helps us all. Some cities like New Orleans (not that we have a chance of aspiring to be New Orleans in the tourism department) virtually run their cities on tourist dollars, so it's nothing to be sneezed at.

A rising tide lifts all boats. Anything that helps our city economy helps all of our city employees.

Where are you getting your facts? Waiting hours for the police to respond to calls is not good and not right. In fact, I am still waiting a couple of years later now for the police to still respond to some of my 911 calls! YEARS and still no response!

How is the visitor count and increased spent by visitors adding people to the police and fire department?

If you have this information - please share.

Thanks!

We know this will happen because we've received great publicity for less.

And we're receiving some not-so-great publicity for the unethical practices by the Oklahoman on behalf of the MAPS3 campaign.

I'm not surprised that this thread veered off-topic to the beaten-to-death Police and Fire issue, but I am surprised that so few of you seem to have no problem with what the Chamber and the OBUPCO have done.

Do tell.

And we're receiving some not-so-great publicity for the unethical practices by the Oklahoman on behalf of the MAPS3 campaign.

I'm not surprised that this thread veered off-topic to the beaten-to-death Police and Fire issue, but I am surprised that so few of you seem to have no problem with what the Chamber and the OBUPCO have done.

Oh, wow, like this issue makes the Oklahoman unethical? This is small potatoes, proving your side has nothing.

Yes, I've had problems with the Oklahoman's ethics for my entire conscious life, but this is nothing. Nothing.

I'm sure someone at the Poynter institute got their panties in a wad. And to the general public? This would have zero influence on their opinion of our city.

But positive pieces in the New York Times, USA Today, Conde Nast Traveler, etc. have a huge impact. Huge. The two aren't remotely comparable. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you know this.