Wambo

I find it silly to gripe and moan about sprawl and decline in areas that affect no one other than those who call them home, and in whom there resides no want for change. Why do we have to rescue someone from a fate of their own making? What is so remarkable about the average community that we should feel so inclined as to fight their fights?

It isn't just about their property. It affects their neighbors and spreads to devalue an entire area.

I agree completely that it takes a human connection. The problems arise when we don't have any connection to our neighbors. Then we get to feeling no connection to the neighborhood. It took time, but I think that's what the neighborhood watch program brought back to my fathers neighbors. Once you rebuild that connection, you're headed in the right direction.

It isn't just about their property. It affects their neighbors and spreads to devalue an entire area.


Circle of influence. Just affect yours. What I feel Peter addressed in his original post was a blanket approach to change areas that are none of his concern A.) Geographically, as he does not live here nor B.) Reasonably, as so much of this city is on the decline due to money, sprawl, darwinism, whatever.

It is not in our interests to pay for the upkeep of an area whose socio-economic state is such that it can't maintain itself? Perhaps faster bulldozers would help, but there again, what is the return? Would you put in more low income housing in spaces previously occupied by blighted storefronts? If you replaced said space with moderate, or more upscale housing, shortly one or the other population would suffer, and someone would be forced out. Would you build a new storefront, too expensive to absorb local interests? Maybe, again, we should just not drive through those parts of town, and leave the fight to those who want to pay.

I am not really sure what you are saying, MGE.

Wow, really snarky.

Says the guy who called Pete's post "drivel"...



I actually think May Avenue looks rather shabby from 63rd to 122nd. You have a huge vacant lot across from Lakehurst that, in its prime location, could be 3 or 4 story high-end condo buildings. You have (at least you did a few months ago) a couple of vacant car dealerships north of Britton and shabby looking retail strips north from there. I have ocassions to visit the Homeland at 122nd and that parking lot is weedy and the paint is peeling, there is little to no landscaping anywhere along that stretch. May Avenue should be the most prized corridor in North OKC. More needs to be done to keep up appearances.

The problem is, none of those things can really be solved by anyone but the property owners, and they won't do it.

Jbrown, you've come to my rescue. Exactly. Exactly. They won't. Why should I be bothered by that. Why should non-resident Pete and others who just can't stand that where they grew up has changed get to make a priority a place that is failing?

Jbrown, you've come to my rescue. Exactly. Exactly. They won't. Why should I be bothered by that. Why should non-resident Pete and others who just can't stand that where they grew up has changed get to make a priority a place that is failing?

Aren't you just a treasure. A lot of people, myself included, are fans of OKC either because we live there, lived there, have family there, own property there or are moving there. Most of the members of the board are interested in having people who are civic minded and care about the city join in the conversations. Plenty of people who have been on this board have moved from or returned to the area and this forum has kept them involved.

It is not a function of a message board to solve the problems in OKC. This is a message/discussion board. Unless I am mistaken, it is intended an an exchange of ideas. You are entitled to thinking that you should be able to shut down the thoughts, words and opinions of non residents (including the owner, no less) but with all due respect, you are missing the forest for the trees. It is not as if an opinion given by a nonresident hurts anyone. If nothing else, even a boneheaded one can prompt a discussion that can ultimately be helpful or constructive. To come onto the board and promptly start trying to censure the owner as unqualified to contribute is a new one.

I totally agree with most of the comments about bad planning etc... I have to say that some homeowners don't care or don't see the state of their property. I have sent numerous emails to the ACTION LINE (which I believe is a joke). A week or two goes by and I get a response that 9 times out of 10 reads no violations found. I always say WTF, you have got to be kidding me no violations! OKC is not pro or reactive to the aesthetic or maintenance of the city. I feel that is where the breakdown starts. The city needs to write citations on offenders and enforce the codes that are in place. During the last ice storm so many branches (from sucker trees that were planted by bird droppings) cause downed the power lines it took days if not weeks to repair. Property owners needs to maintain their property and if not the city needs to take charge; take care of the problem and put a lien on the property to ensure payment will be received. Today home owners are less proud and even less responsible of their homes and surroundings. I am sure Asplundah and Davey appreciate the lack of attentiveness because they are making big bucks on the slothfulness of the fine citizens of OKC. Most have become accustomed to and or have ignored the problem that the city allows to happen.

Circle of influence. Just affect yours. What I feel Peter addressed in his original post was a blanket approach to change areas that are none of his concern A.) Geographically, as he does not live here nor B.) Reasonably, as so much of this city is on the decline due to money, sprawl, darwinism, whatever.

It is not in our interests to pay for the upkeep of an area whose socio-economic state is such that it can't maintain itself? Perhaps faster bulldozers would help, but there again, what is the return? Would you put in more low income housing in spaces previously occupied by blighted storefronts? If you replaced said space with moderate, or more upscale housing, shortly one or the other population would suffer, and someone would be forced out. Would you build a new storefront, too expensive to absorb local interests? Maybe, again, we should just not drive through those parts of town, and leave the fight to those who want to pay.

MGE, I think you miss the point. If what you are saying is somehow accepted, why do cities all over America have zoning laws, preservation and maintenance requirements to meet community standards? Regulations and laws to prevent unmitigated sprawl? All Pete and others are saying is that many of these things are missing here in Oklahoma City and the results are not pretty. Literally.

Was I arguing with the owner? Heavens to Betsy, I should address him with due regard because he is above reproach.

Isn't the point that he censures, (and censors) this site very little, proof to some degree that he is an advocate of free speech?

In what capacity should I serve this site? Until the plug gets pulled on my side of the discussion I'm going to assume that he is relatively unphased by what I say as it pertains to his feelings. Should I change his or any mind in the process, score one for my side. Should I be persuaded to change via the natural course of free discussion - also benefitial and a testament to this site.

I'll not praise the man because he owns a talksite. I may applaud some of his arguments, maybe not this one....

Jbrown, you've come to my rescue. Exactly. Exactly. They won't. Why should I be bothered by that. Why should non-resident Pete and others who just can't stand that where they grew up has changed get to make a priority a place that is failing?

I was talking about N. May specifically. That damage is done, and those areas are a little shabby, but nowhere near something the city could condemn and demolish.

Pete is advocating for better planning in the future so this doesn't continue to happen in new areas.

Yes JBrown, I know what you were talking about. Really why does N. May matter? Continue to use it, or don't. I just don't see why loving the town you live in means trying to hang on to every spot that has at anytime in your life touched you.

These are not what gives a city character. These are really areas of town used primarily by people who live there or near there and will age and be repaired until they fall apart and then something new will emerge.

I'll admit that zoning is a necessary tool for development of aesthetically pleasing environments, but it won't fix the situation in areas of town that have already foundered.

Putting a Deep Fork at 15 and Agnew isn't going to make me want to eat there. And the big expensive sign leading into the stockyards won't change things for the stockyards or mulligan flats.

Yes JBrown, I know what you were talking about. Really why does N. May matter? Continue to use it, or don't. I just don't see why loving the town you live in means trying to hang on to every spot that has at anytime in your life touched you.

These are not what gives a city character. These are really areas of town used primarily by people who live there or near there and will age and be repaired until they fall apart and then something new will emerge.

I'll admit that zoning is a necessary tool for development of aesthetically pleasing environments, but it won't fix the situation in areas of town that have already foundered.

Putting a Deep Fork at 15 and Agnew isn't going to make me want to eat there. And the big expensive sign leading into the stockyards won't change things for the stockyards or mulligan flats.

So, you think we're just waxing nostalgic here? That this is about sentimentality? We're on different pages completely if that's what you think.

Was I arguing with the owner? Heavens to Betsy, I should address him with due regard because he is above reproach.

Isn't the point that he censures, (and censors) this site very little, proof to some degree that he is an advocate of free speech?

In what capacity should I serve this site? Until the plug gets pulled on my side of the discussion I'm going to assume that he is relatively unphased by what I say as it pertains to his feelings. Should I change his or any mind in the process, score one for my side. Should I be persuaded to change via the natural course of free discussion - also benefitial and a testament to this site.

I'll not praise the man because he owns a talksite. I may applaud some of his arguments, maybe not this one....

No one is asking you to praise the man. That is a childish response given the exchange.

Nor am I suggesting he is above reproach. And this isn't about free speech since this is a private board. And it isn't about the content of his speech.

However, it is his board, he makes the rules, he allows non city residents to post and to make the argument that because he doesn't live in OKC he should be quiet (although the way you said it was rude) is not an argument on the merits of his speech. On the contrary, it is looking a gift horse in the mouth and extremely ungracious to your host.

You are now suggesting that one or the other of you may be pursuaded, which is certainly valid in a message board. But you initially made the rude claim that nonresidents should have no say, making it clear that at that point, you weren't looking to change his mind and your mind wasn't open to his changing yours. Moreover, you were outright trollish in your comments to his perfectly reasonable post.

You are correct that Pete doesn't censure people very often, something that we all appreciate. Appreciating it and taking advantage of it are obviously not the same thing. He may not say anything to avoid pulling rank but that doesn't mean that other board members can't note your unprovoked hostility towards him.

Just to be clear, no one will ever be censured for expressing their opinion.

But if you can't express it without getting personal and attacking the person rather than the post, then that's a different matter.

So, let's get off discussing people and get back to discussing the matter at hand.

Thanks.

No one is asking you to praise the man. That is a childish response given the exchange.

Nor am I suggesting he is above reproach. And this isn't about free speech since this is a private board. And it isn't about the content of his speech.

However, it is his board, he makes the rules, he allows non city residents to post and to make the argument that because he doesn't live in OKC he should be quiet (although the way you said it was rude) is not an argument on the merits of his speech. On the contrary, it is looking a gift horse in the mouth and extremely ungracious to your host.

You are now suggesting that one or the other of you may be pursuaded, which is certainly valid in a message board. But you initially made the rude claim that nonresidents should have no say, making it clear that at that point, you weren't looking to change his mind and your mind wasn't open to his changing yours. Moreover, you were outright trollish in your comments to his perfectly reasonable post.

You are correct that Pete doesn't censure people very often, something that we all appreciate. Appreciating it and taking advantage of it are obviously not the same thing. He may not say anything to avoid pulling rank but that doesn't mean that other board members can't note your unprovoked hostility towards him.

I'm trollish, I guess. I'll remember to keep my postings polite, because you said so. It seems that the old posters (speaking site life not life life) are uncomfortable with an influx of opposition to this site. If thats the case, I'll know when I'm no longer allowed to ty....









Gotcha!

We are all used to opposition and and give and take. Being polite is more than most of us can do, consistently - but rudeness takes it to a different level. We all slip, sometimes. I'll leave it at that.

Great discussion and observations Pete. There is a sizeable chunk of OKC that is rundown and blighted in every direction: north/northwest (Britton & Western, NW 122 & Penn, NW Expy. & Macarthur/Council, etc.), east (NE 23 & Kelley/MLK, NE 16 & MLK, etc.), south (pretty much the whole area north of I-240 and south of downtown between I-44 and I-35), and west (NE 10 & Council, NW 39 & Meridian, etc.) And then you have lots of blighted areas in the inner city as well especially west of downtown towards Fair Park, around OCU, and various pockets around NW 23 that are getting better. The people I know who have moved to Edmond and Moore have done so to escape these blighted areas, or neighborhoods adjacent to them, and for the good schools. Are the poor schools to blame? Section 8 housing? I'm not sure but it needs to be addressed. Yes downtown is pretty nice but it's not good if the rest of the city is crumbling around it, which is the case with OKC.

I totally agree that the zoning has been a huge issue for OKC. Moving back after 8 years in the Portland, OR area it has been shocking to see the types of development that is allowed. In the NW they force you to use every available parcel of land before they allow you to develop anything beyond that for mass housing. Most of Edmond would still be only be 5-10 acre parcels based on the zoning laws in the NW.

I don't understand at all the idea that it shouldn't matter that neighborhoods are dying as long as you don't live there. I'm sure the person who says that then gets upset when there is a murder or drugs or something else. I love seeing people care about our city and using their resources to make a difference.

A great example of this is a ministry called The Refuge. It is across the street from the City Rescue Mission. The story is basically that a guy from CA bought the building not realizing it was a crack house (one of the worst in OKC). When he visited he decided that God had called him to do something about it so he moved here with his family and began getting rid of the drug dealers and helping the people who wanted help. Now, the entire street has changed and there are young people moving into these apartments to help the people living around there.

I know that is a very Christianized example but the bottom line is it shows someone who cares enough to get involved. I think it takes a holistic approach. Zoning laws, concerned citizens, caring churches, improving schools, etc.

I think there is a little bit of difference between full-on blight and just general inner city areas. Some of what you are describing isn't there yet. The Capitol Hill area is a thriving latino district. Just because the whites left doesn't make it blighted.

I think there is a little bit of difference between full-on blight and just general inner city areas. Some of what you are describing isn't there yet. The Capitol Hill area is a thriving latino district. Just because the whites left doesn't make it blighted.

I tend to agree with you, of course. I was sad to see so many areas in far west OKC from Penn towards Council had gone so far downhill when we were there in June. A lot of those places were iffy for years but some of them don't look like anyone had taken out the trash or painted a front door since 2000. When my kids went to PCW in the 80's/90's, I drove them to school because thugs tried to steal my kid's shoes when he rode the bus but it was still a nice school. Now, not so much.

Did someone suggest that minorities = blight? A lot of people seem to automatically assume that everyone they don't know and the ones the don't like are racists as soon as they criticize or even offer an accurate factual description of something that impacts one race harder than another. What tends to happen are that people in poverty, as a group, tend to not take good care of property. There are a lot of generational poor who not only lack money but lack basic home maintenance knowledge, surely. However, many new immigrants and minorities fall into a lower socioeconomic range, at least for a time, so some of the places that are the poorest have a large number reflecting that group. Many don't have the funds or the inclination to pour money back into structures they don't own. Today's immigrants aren't that much different than when the Irish immigrated. Other groups that tend to congregate are the poorer trailer parks with their stereo typical "white trash," the latino populations that are new to the country and haven't had time to build up wealth, and even the new asian immigrants who tend to congregate in certain areas of a city. In the areas around many apartment complexes crime tends to be much higher when you have a lot of people living closely together, particularly when drugs are involved and there are a lot of people out of work with time on their hands. Statistically, that affects some groups far harder than others. Pretending that isn't so is not realistic and puts ideology before reality. There are many, many exceptions but it is what it is.

Whites (and people with means) tend to move to greener pastures suggesting that beginning of blight comes prior to the flight. And the notion that only whites are the ones fleeing is sorta racist, itself. And there are tons of low income white people living in blighted areas.

I recall that Lansbrook used to host an Affair in the Park (or some such name) back when I lived in that area. I understand it may not be there any longer and may have been merged into the downtown festival. Does anyone know if this is true or any of the history?

I remember that being a really big annual event.

I totally agree that the zoning has been a huge issue for OKC. Moving back after 8 years in the Portland, OR area it has been shocking to see the types of development that is allowed. In the NW they force you to use every available parcel of land before they allow you to develop anything beyond that for mass housing. Most of Edmond would still be only be 5-10 acre parcels based on the zoning laws in the NW.

I don't understand at all the idea that it shouldn't matter that neighborhoods are dying as long as you don't live there. I'm sure the person who says that then gets upset when there is a murder or drugs or something else. I love seeing people care about our city and using their resources to make a difference.

A great example of this is a ministry called The Refuge. It is across the street from the City Rescue Mission. The story is basically that a guy from CA bought the building not realizing it was a crack house (one of the worst in OKC). When he visited he decided that God had called him to do something about it so he moved here with his family and began getting rid of the drug dealers and helping the people who wanted help. Now, the entire street has changed and there are young people moving into these apartments to help the people living around there.

I know that is a very Christianized example but the bottom line is it shows someone who cares enough to get involved. I think it takes a holistic approach. Zoning laws, concerned citizens, caring churches, improving schools, etc.

There are so many good stories that happen as a result of forward thinking and or course, most importantly compassion. I love to hear of areas that are turned around by a growing community cynergism.

Rarity though is the ingredient that makes it so sweet.

I'm writing to say that zoning is not going to change these areas, investment is. I see a lot about zoning and changing things around areas that are "blighted." My point is why? We cannot save them all, we really cannot save the majority of them. Until someone is willing to post that they are investing in an area, and providing support to affect change then, again, this is just banter. We hold heros as mentioned above in such esteem because they made a move, they didn't sit about citing problem areas and complaining that their property values were losing because some neighbor didn't take care of his property.

The change they created was in spite of and around "blight." Until we sequeste a socioeconomic group from the rest of the populus (which is of course wrong), it remains an inevitablity that every area will have concerns with a changing environment and the "threat" of perhaps an infiltration of "less than desireable" things around them.

The fortunate few who have amassed a healthy portion of the American dream need to have a contingency for an event such as this.

There are so many good stories that happen as a result of forward thinking and or course, most importantly compassion. I love to hear of areas that are turned around by a growing community cynergism.

Rarity though is the ingredient that makes it so sweet.

I'm writing to say that zoning is not going to change these areas, investment is. I see a lot about zoning and changing things around areas that are "blighted." My point is why? We cannot save them all, we really cannot save the majority of them. Until someone is willing to post that they are investing in an area, and providing support to affect change then, again, this is just banter. We hold heros as mentioned above in such esteem because they made a move, they didn't sit about citing problem areas and complaining that their property values were losing because some neighbor didn't take care of his property.

The change they created was in spite of and around "blight." Until we sequeste a socioeconomic group from the rest of the populus (which is of course wrong), it remains an inevitablity that every area will have concerns with a changing environment and the "threat" of perhaps an infiltration of "less than desireable" things around them.

The fortunate few who have amassed a healthy portion of the American dream need to have a contingency for an event such as this.

Or you can be like irishlover over on City-Data's forum and tell anyone not to go to OKC or even they should consider his beloved Texas just because he had an unfortunate experience with his property in Crown Heights.

There are so many good stories that happen as a result of forward thinking and or course, most importantly compassion. I love to hear of areas that are turned around by a growing community cynergism.

Rarity though is the ingredient that makes it so sweet.

I'm writing to say that zoning is not going to change these areas, investment is. I see a lot about zoning and changing things around areas that are "blighted." My point is why? We cannot save them all, we really cannot save the majority of them. Until someone is willing to post that they are investing in an area, and providing support to affect change then, again, this is just banter. We hold heros as mentioned above in such esteem because they made a move, they didn't sit about citing problem areas and complaining that their property values were losing because some neighbor didn't take care of his property.

The change they created was in spite of and around "blight." Until we sequeste a socioeconomic group from the rest of the populus (which is of course wrong), it remains an inevitablity that every area will have concerns with a changing environment and the "threat" of perhaps an infiltration of "less than desireable" things around them.

The fortunate few who have amassed a healthy portion of the American dream need to have a contingency for an event such as this.

I don't think anyone is saying that zoning can change those areas. The idea is that zoning and proper urban growth boundaries and growth management can keep this problem from repeating itself and also encourages the redevelopment of neighborhoods rather than continuous building on the edges.

We can't fix everything, but we can give people in areas considered blighted good schools so they at least have a chance to succeed. We can give them better mass transit so they have opportunities for employment without necessarily having to own a car. We can help fix up neighborhoods so that people learn to take pride in what they have, no matter how modest. Those are all reasonable, reachable goals, and part of what make a city a better place for all of its residents.

We can't fix everything, but we can give people in areas considered blighted good schools so they at least have a chance to succeed. We can give them better mass transit so they have opportunities for employment without necessarily having to own a car. We can help fix up neighborhoods so that people learn to take pride in what they have, no matter how modest. Those are all reasonable, reachable goals, and part of what make a city a better place for all of its residents.

Almost had me, til this post. You cannot teach someone to take care of what they have. Again this must come from within. Nobody from outside the flats is gonna tell the flats how to live.

I'll agree with better schools, but at the end of the day, those kids gotta go home. With luck they will get a glimpse of how much better things can be, then....they'll move to the burbs where they can get supper in the movie theaters.

Almost had me, til this post. You cannot teach someone to take care of what they have. Again this must come from within. Nobody from outside the flats is gonna tell the flats how to live.

I'll agree with better schools, but at the end of the day, those kids gotta go home. With luck they will get a glimpse of how much better things can be, then....they'll move to the burbs where they can get supper in the movie theaters.

I completely disagree that you cannot teach someone to take care of what they have. Pride can do a lot. Neighbors can teach other neighbors how to care for what they have by modeling. Schools can help teach children as well. Unless you were being facetious, which is difficult to tell on a message board, for those of us who don't live in the burbs and don't care to live in the burbs, it is not necessarily middle class mecca. Maybe that's why you're not that concerned about MAPS passing? If you consider the burbs the goal, then why spend money to improve our city?

I completely disagree that you cannot teach someone to take care of what they have. Pride can do a lot. Neighbors can teach other neighbors how to care for what they have by modeling. Schools can help teach children as well. Unless you were being facetious, which is difficult to tell on a message board, for those of us who don't live in the burbs and don't care to live in the burbs, it is not necessarily middle class mecca. Maybe that's why you're not that concerned about MAPS passing? If you consider the burbs the goal, then why spend money to improve our city?


Not the goal, just a goal. My argument has always been that a movement can only begin from within. Neighbor to neighbor, from previous posts, I'll assume you live in Mesta, or Heritage or Crown, so lets just use those as examples. Excellent spots, neat, clean, historical one of my favorite runs. Lets look at the surrounding areas. Not so much. Why?

One cannot influence others of differing socioeconomic backgrounds because the rules of one's covenant don't pertain. You can throw a stone in any direction from those really cool spots and hit, the dregs. When will those spots change? When an affluent, or at least socioeconomically equal person chooses to move in, and then wait, and wait, and wait until others of the dregs can move out so that more of the north face, ug trodding, mojito swilling like can move in.

And more power to them. I would love to be invited. Its just not something I care to write about, and act as though my motivations were based on improvement of OKC and not just a desire to surround myself with people like me.

I actually agree with you. I'm talking about neighbor to neighbor. I'm talking about, perhaps, people who have "made it" but come from the same neighborhood coming back to live and modeling both success and how one can live. People do that all over the country. Been to Harlem recently? That's a perfect example of what can happen when people care about where they came from.

I'm not motivated to surround myself with people like myself, personally. And I don't live in Crown Heights, Mesta Park or Heritang Hills, although they are very nice neighborhoods. My motivations are based on improvement of OKC. I want the city to be a better place for everyone to live. That's why my favorite MAPS project is the streetcar. It's a start for mass transit in this city, something everyone here needs, regardless of socioeconomic background, for a myriad of reasons.

I think you can model/inspire changes with single family homes but multifamily homes/apartments where the people don't have any incentive whatsoever to maintain the outside of the place or the place itself are pretty immune to that sort of thing.

I completely disagree that you cannot teach someone to take care of what they have. Pride can do a lot. Neighbors can teach other neighbors how to care for what they have by modeling. Schools can help teach children as well. Unless you were being facetious, which is difficult to tell on a message board, for those of us who don't live in the burbs and don't care to live in the burbs, it is not necessarily middle class mecca. Maybe that's why you're not that concerned about MAPS passing? If you consider the burbs the goal, then why spend money to improve our city?

So are we to assume that when your children were at home, you lived in the deep deuce and they went to the public schools?

I love this thread.

I'm not as hopeless about some of these neighborhoods as some. Around 2002 I used to live in the south part of Mesta/Heritage area, and I could watch the crackheads and hookers from my balcony. They were there day in and day out, and I even bought a gun for safety. I finally moved out of town but recently drove by my old place. That area is now SPOTLESS. No more druggies or prostitutes, and the dilapidated houses are either gone or have been restored. It is possible for some of these seedy parts of town to come back from the edge.

One area of concern though: North Western around Britton Rd. I mean, it's literally a stone's throw from Nichols Hills, so I can't understand why that area is so dirty and broke down. It makes no sense for those slums to be THISCLOSE to Nichols Hills.

I love this thread.

I'm not as hopeless about some of these neighborhoods as some. Around 2002 I used to live in the south part of Mesta/Heritage area, and I could watch the crackheads and hookers from my balcony. They were there day in and day out, and I even bought a gun for safety. I finally moved out of town but recently drove by my old place. That area is now SPOTLESS. No more druggies or prostitutes, and the dilapidated houses are either gone or have been restored. It is possible for some of these seedy parts of town to come back from the edge.

One area of concern though: North Western around Britton Rd. I mean, it's literally a stone's throw from Nichols Hills, so I can't understand why that area is so dirty and broke down. It makes no sense for those slums to be THISCLOSE to Nichols Hills.

That's basically the North Highlands though the main area is just a bit east of there. I know I heard a quote from the Pastor of Britton Christian Church (who is doing great things by the way) that the in the neighborhood surrounding his church something like 85% of homes have no father present. One of the kids I mentor go's to North Highlands Elementary and they have a good principal and staff but the kids come to school with so many problems already it's an extremely difficult job.

So are we to assume that when your children were at home, you lived in the deep deuce and they went to the public schools?

When my children were home, there was no Deep Deuce. They've been to all sorts of schools, and we've lived all over town. My youngest went to Catholic school. I would have no problem with any grandchildren of mine, should I be so lucky to have them, going to public school in Oklahoma City.

However, my oldest son bought and renovated a home in Jacksonville, in the midst of a ghetto basically, although it is precisely the kind of neighborhood MGE is talking about....one people of many different types of backgrounds are moving back to and fixing up their neighborhood. He'll be returning to live there when he gets back from Baghdad in March (God willing!) My next daughter is one of the few white people who lives in her neighborhood in Atlanta. It's a nice little neighborhood of mostly blue collar African Americans who are very proud of their neighborhood and work hard to make it nice. I hope I've taught my children the value of interacting with all different cultures, and that diversity adds richness to one's life. They seem to be living their lives in that fashion, so far.

Of course, thoughts and prayers for your son's safe return home

Of course, thoughts and prayers for your son's safe return home

Thank you. 81 days until he flies to Kuwait, and a few more until he lands in Norfolk (but who's counting!).