I've started what will probably be my last MAPS 3 blog article. It will be different than the others in which I largely attempted to lay down as objective information about MAPS 3 that I could, along with some criticisms. The purpose of the new article, though, is persuasion. Naturally, it will have far too many words in it, but I don't know how else to do it. The object is to look at the city from a historical perspective, its prior periods of boom and bust, city pride, or lack thereof, and the like.

Its intended audience is the undecided vote ... I'm pretty much sure that almost all folks here have had their minds made up for quite a time. That's why I haven't too often gotten involved with all the banter here which seems to go on and on and on ... with very little new information being presented. Just arguments.

Right now, you can play with a little Christmas tree and hear a tune, if you want. The link is Doug Dawgz Blog: MAPS 3 -- Time To Decide (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/11/maps-3-time-to-decide.html) ... clicking the graphic below will also get you there.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/mapschristmastree.jpg (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/11/maps-3-time-to-decide.html)

You're amazing, Doug. Oklahoma City is lucky to have you.

Thanks, Betts. I've got the "short version" up now, subject to correction and change if I think of something better to say:



I'll give a short version and a longer one. The short version is this:

1. One should never take the city's progress for granted. Looking back at the city's history shows periods of boom, periods of lethargy, and periods of bust. I'll detail those in the long version.

2. MAPS 3 has the potential to dramatically change our city for the better — it is a game-changer. I'm NOT one of the people who say that if MAPS 3 doesn't pass, the city is somehow doomed. But, I am one who sees MAPS 3 as a golden opportunity to leap-frog over what might otherwise take decades to accomplish. The projects are good solid projects which will, at the least, improve the city's quality of life and, quite possibly, directly or indirectly cause substantial economic benefit to flow our way from people and/or businesses that are not part of our city today. That means tourism, and that means the possibility of attracting businesses to locate here. If the latter does occur, that's a plus. But the quality of life factor for our citizens will occur, regardless.

3. City officials can be trusted to live up to their end of the deal. Even though MAPS 3 does, in fact, place a heck of a lot of trust in our elected officials to complete the projects the city says it will complete, the trust is warranted.

4. The objections to MAPS 3 are insufficient for us not to take advantage of the opportunity presented. Some objections make no sense at all, and they can be discarded out of hand. Other objections have a more reasoned basis and some do have merit. However, in balance, such objections do not outweigh what the city has to gain if MAPS 3 passes.

That's the short story.

The longer one is about to be stated ... stay tuned.

This morning I've finished the article. It is long so you may not want to read it. If you are anti-MAPS 3, it won't change your mind ... no pretense on on my part that I will change your minds nor you mine. It is primarily written for the undecided voter and it would take a pretty serious voter to plow through all the pages. I'll include 21 screen shots below from Doug Dawgz Blog: MAPS 3 — Time To Decide (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/11/maps-3-time-to-decide_30.html)


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_01.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_02.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_03.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_04.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_05.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_06.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_07.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_08.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_09.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_10.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_11.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_12.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_13.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_14.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_15.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_16.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_17.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_18.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_19.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_20.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_21.jpg

Doug, I agree with varying degrees, #1 thru #3. But am completely on the other end when it comes to #4 and #5. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I sincerely hope that your faith in this "handshake deal" is justified. I just don't see it. We have contracts and the like to protect the interests of the parties involved. There is very little protection offered the taxpayer with MAPS 3. The "contract" is heavily weighted in the City's favor. I hope you end up being 100% right and I am 100% wrong because that would be the best thing for us all.

With all due respect (and there is a lot of it), your #5 graphic is incorrect. The item on the right side "unspecific ballot" completely wipes out every single one of the items on the left side. The inescapable fact that none of the items on the left are mentioned anywhere in the legally binding documents (the Ballot/Ordinance) leaves that side empty. I have stated before, and will state again, even though I have some concerns about individual projects like the Convention Center info, I support all of the "proposed" items and hope we do end up with them all, as promised and within budget. History has shown that at least 2 of the 3 won't end up being the case.

You say that City leaders have earned our trust by completely everything they said they would do with previous MAPS, seemingly ignoring that (at least with the 1st MAPS, there was specific language that had some teeth to it), that essentially required them to keep their part of the bargain. That is missing with MAPS 3.

The Mayor says this ballot is precisely the same format as the MAPS for Kids one and they have kept the promises there. Well not exactly, as some published letters in the Oklahoman pointed out (people with names attached as opposed the anonymity of a screen name), while money has indeed been spent, the projects that were announced have been scaled back or eliminated completely. Specifics were given and not refuted. Since it is the same format, I expect to see the same results with MAPS 3. The money will indeed be collected and spent. No doubt about that at all.

As you are well aware, the City's history is replete with examples (some even post MAPS, i.e. Bass Pro) where that trust has been violated. A couple of years ago there was a City audit and they discovered there were bond projects going back 18 years that had never been done or even started (covering 3 bond issues). The City Manager's response? The City had "other priorities". Never saw a follow-up article as to the status and when asked, there was absolutely no response from the City (Councilperson, Mayor or City Manager). We have projects going back to the 2000 bond that are yet to begin 10 years later.

So after the maps 3 what next in 2010. Maps for the new jail and the cox center will need $126 million to finish it. Where is all this money coming from when the sales tax is down now. City is cutting back, state is cutting back and Federal people are not getting a cost of living raise. My retirement check from Tinker won't be seeing a COLA raise this year and Social Security for 2 yrs. Does this sound like progress. Sorry but I'm voting no with my Fire and Police buddies.

So after the maps 3 what next in 2010. Maps for the new jail and the cox center will need $126 million to finish it. Where is all this money coming from when the sales tax is down now. City is cutting back, state is cutting back and Federal people are not getting a cost of living raise. My retirement check from Tinker won't be seeing a COLA raise this year and Social Security for 2 yrs. Does this sound like progress. Sorry but I'm voting no with my Fire and Police buddies.


So like your Police and Fire buddies are saying, your'e only voting no because there's no MONEY FOR YOU.

So like your Police and Fire buddies are saying, your'e only voting no because there's no MONEY FOR YOU.

Many voters routinely vote their pocketbook. Or the "what's in it for me?". Thus the political consideration to include a range of projects, some appealing to different demographics (i.e., Senior Aquatic Centers), hoping there will be enough support among the projects that it can overcome an unpopular one (Convention Center).

So like your Police and Fire buddies are saying, your'e only voting no because there's no MONEY FOR YOU.
What's in it for you? A Senior Aquatic Center? That I'll be stuck with paying for? Every Year! No thanks. Use your retirement money and pay your way.

A central park full of bums? A money pit rail? #1,#3,#4,and #5 are all wrong! #2 doesn't even matter. None of us are taking for granted the past successes. It's THIS current list of PET projects that we don't want to pay for. FORGET City services. These projects on their own aren't going to MOVE us anywhere.

I'll be voting for everyone. That's how I should have voted in MAPS 1. That's how I voted in MAPS for Kids, because I didn't have any children in the Oklahoma City public schools, but voted for it anyway. There's a way to vote that includes civic-mindedness, that doesn't ask "What's in it for me?" What I think the voter should ask is, "What's in it for my city? What can I, as a person, do to make my city a better place for everyone to live in?"

So, I 'll vote yes for the senior who might love to have a place to gather with friends, exercise and socialize, especially those in parts of town that might not have the health clubs and amenities that they would like. I'll vote yes for the people in town who have kids on crew teams, and for our Olympic trainees who live here. I'll vote yes for the bike riders and walkers for whom it's currently unsafe to ride, increasing bike trails and sidewalks. I'll vote yes for the streetcar, but even more for the promise it gives up of creating a decent mass transit system in this city for not only the disadvantaged, who truly need it, but also for our air quality and road quality. I'll vote yes so that we can have a beautiful public park like Chicago, Boston and Houston, for a free place our citizens can gather to enjoy a day in the sunshine, for exercise, for festivals, for community events. I'll vote yes for the people who love to go to the fairgrounds to those shows, even if I don't. If I want a park, maybe they'd like a building. And finally, I'll vote for a convention center, even though I may never use it, to bring visitors to Oklahoma City, to add to our economy with dollars that didn't originate here.

I'll probably use three of the projects, but our citizens will benefit from all 8. That's all I need to know when I vote. If I only used "what's in it for me" everytime I looked at any course of action, I'd be a pretty sorry individual.

Many voters routinely vote their pocketbook. Or the "what's in it for me?". Thus the political consideration to include a range of projects, some appealing to different demographics (i.e., Senior Aquatic Centers), hoping there will be enough support among the projects that it can overcome an unpopular one (Convention Center).Actually I think all of the projects are all about community building through development of spaces that provide opportunities for connection.

What's in it for you? A Senior Aquatic Center? That I'll be stuck with paying for? Every Year! No thanks. Use your retirement money and pay your way.

A central park full of bums? A money pit rail? #1,#3,#4,and #5 are all wrong! #2 doesn't even matter. None of us are taking for granted the past successes. It's THIS current list of PET projects that we don't want to pay for. FORGET City services. These projects on their own aren't going to MOVE us anywhere.The aquatic center in Arkansas had a fee associated with it for use. MAPS 3 provides the place as I understand it.

With the negative view you have of Oklahoma City and the people who live here I do wonder why you would stay here.

I'll be voting for everyone. That's how I should have voted in MAPS 1. That's how I voted in MAPS for Kids, because I didn't have any children in the Oklahoma City public schools, but voted for it anyway. There's a way to vote that includes civic-mindedness, that doesn't ask "What's in it for me?" What I think the voter should ask is, "What's in it for my city? What can I, as a person, do to make my city a better place for everyone to live in?"

So, I 'll vote yes for the senior who might love to have a place to gather with friends, exercise and socialize, especially those in parts of town that might not have the health clubs and amenities that they would like. I'll vote yes for the people in town who have kids on crew teams, and for our Olympic trainees who live here. I'll vote yes for the bike riders and walkers for whom it's currently unsafe to ride, increasing bike trails and sidewalks. I'll vote yes for the streetcar, but even more for the promise it gives up of creating a decent mass transit system in this city for not only the disadvantaged, who truly need it, but also for our air quality and road quality. I'll vote yes so that we can have a beautiful public park like Chicago, Boston and Houston, for a free place our citizens can gather to enjoy a day in the sunshine, for exercise, for festivals, for community events. I'll vote yes for the people who love to go to the fairgrounds to those shows, even if I don't. If I want a park, maybe they'd like a building. And finally, I'll vote for a convention center, even though I may never use it, to bring visitors to Oklahoma City, to add to our economy with dollars that didn't originate here.

I'll probably use three of the projects, but our citizens will benefit from all 8. That's all I need to know when I vote. If I only used "what's in it for me" everytime I looked at any course of action, I'd be a pretty sorry individual.I for one really appreciate you commitment and dedication to the City of Oklahoma City. I have no doubt at all that your motives really are for the good of the entire community and I think you've demonstrated that again and again.

I doubt I'll use any of the projects of this MAPS. I certainly haven't used much of the other MAPS projects.

I do admire your perseverance and consistency in contributing to this forum.

Not much I can add to that ol' bean

:congrats::congrats::congrats::congrats::congrats:

:yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock:

I am glad that I am not so self absorbed as Iron Ass seems to be. I do not feel that the penny I spend on sales tax is for my good, but for that of the City as a whole. Can you envision a city populated with over fifty percent of it's citizens having the mentality of Iron. That is what I would call ugly.

After this--like a great movie trilogy--I do not think there should be any more MAPS projects. What I do think they should do, is keep the city tax exactly as it is but keep that extra penny going into that fund where future independent projects can be voted on by the people and paid for by the people as they see fit. If, say, in any one or two year period if certain items aren't approved then the money goes toward secondly important projects as surplus money, like street repair (and/or upgrades) and sidewalks. Yes, I know that money was approved in with the 2007 GOB but it never hurts to have extra available as we have seen the cost of the new I-40 go up and up.

I also would support a permanent penny tax dedicated to public interest projects.

Iron, this one's for you.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/kumbaya800.jpg

It's estimated that if (WHEN) MAPS3 passes, it will cost the average person $10.00 per month, to me that's well worth it for the increase in quality of life it provides for all citizens.

What's in it for you? A Senior Aquatic Center? That I'll be stuck with paying for? Every Year! No thanks.

You can pay $25 a year for these aquatic centers, $25 a month for Aspen or the Y, or sit and rot I suppose.

Love it!



iron, this one's for you.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/dougloudenback/coretoshore/maps3/kumbaya800.jpg

Go MAPs 3!!!
Go Betts, MAPs' first lady.
Go Doug, Ambassador for MAPs.

I've seen first hand how some union heads work and I've been appalled at the outright misdirection used as political retribution against the Mayor for not lining union coffers.

It's estimated that if (WHEN) MAPS3 passes, it will cost the average person $10.00 per month, to me that's well worth it for the increase in quality of life it provides for all citizens.
Count me in for 33 cents a day.

Doug, if you're so inclined, you could always put a Shannon figure over by the FF and Policia reps .... maybe even hang a lil' flowthrough Lipton bag on him for some bling bling

Thanks, Betts. I've got the "short version" up now, subject to correction and change if I think of something better to say:



I'll give a short version and a longer one. The short version is this:

1. One should never take the city's progress for granted. Looking back at the city's history shows periods of boom, periods of lethargy, and periods of bust. I'll detail those in the long version.

2. MAPS 3 has the potential to dramatically change our city for the better — it is a game-changer. I'm NOT one of the people who say that if MAPS 3 doesn't pass, the city is somehow doomed. But, I am one who sees MAPS 3 as a golden opportunity to leap-frog over what might otherwise take decades to accomplish. The projects are good solid projects which will, at the least, improve the city's quality of life and, quite possibly, directly or indirectly cause substantial economic benefit to flow our way from people and/or businesses that are not part of our city today. That means tourism, and that means the possibility of attracting businesses to locate here. If the latter does occur, that's a plus. But the quality of life factor for our citizens will occur, regardless.

3. City officials can be trusted to live up to their end of the deal. Even though MAPS 3 does, in fact, place a heck of a lot of trust in our elected officials to complete the projects the city says it will complete, the trust is warranted.

4. The objections to MAPS 3 are insufficient for us not to take advantage of the opportunity presented. Some objections make no sense at all, and they can be discarded out of hand. Other objections have a more reasoned basis and some do have merit. However, in balance, such objections do not outweigh what the city has to gain if MAPS 3 passes.

That's the short story.

The longer one is about to be stated ... stay tuned.

Doug,
Its not because I dont believe in or want OKC to progress.
Its I dont trust the elected officials.
They cant seem to deliver city services as it stands now.
We're in a budget shortfall, we're asking the low income and fixed income to pay for this for a lot longer then previously.
The mass transit portion for example is a small size, and most likely not alleviate any traffic jams or heavy use areas.
Let them come to us with smaller projects and we can judge the progress as we go.
Why are we going for the convention/tourism dollar only?
If in addition with MAPS we had a more diverse population and lose the "redneck" mentality that still bubbles inside a sizable population here in OKC.
Do you know what in addition grows a city?
Its the welcome mat towards diversity,& creative people.

Doug,
Its not because I dont believe in or want OKC to progress.
Its I dont trust the elected officials.
They cant seem to deliver city services as it stands now.
We're in a budget shortfall, we're asking the low income and fixed income to pay for this for a lot longer then previously.
The mass transit portion for example is a small size, and most likely not alleviate any traffic jams or heavy use areas.
Let them come to us with smaller projects and we can judge the progress as we go.
Why are we going for the convention/tourism dollar only?
If in addition with MAPS we had a more diverse population and lose the "redneck" mentality that still bubbles inside a sizable population here in OKC.
Do you know what in addition grows a city?
Its the welcome mat towards diversity,& creative people.

MAPS 3 is what will deliver us the diversity and make this place a better city for creative people. Thanks gmwise for your support of MAPS 3!

> Why are we going for the convention/tourism dollar only?

For the same reason other communities do. Outside dollars come in, get spent and the folks spending those then depart. Your community benefits from those dollars. And in addition, the residents also have access to the facilities.

A beauty of MAPs is you're by and large not relying on covering interest on debt (though yes there is some), so your costs are down.

You're relying on outsiders to help raise the money, one estimate I've seen is in the 30% range for all MAPs dollars come from touristas and other out of towners, commuters and generic passer throughs.

So while MAPs is not solely about bringing in tourista funds, every dollar that does come from outside OKC is a dollar not needed for an OKC resident.

On a much smaller scale, it's why Norman has a new conference center and hotel, by far the nicest in our county and for miles and miles except for downtown OKC. We also want dollars from elsewhere coming into our community, so the developer for the Embassy was heavily courted to come here with it.

I like our growth down here, and I like what OKC is doing up there, and I think positive growth in OKC also helps us in Norman.

Good grief Wise, you have aligned yourself on the "redneck" side of the Maps3 issue and you seem to be complaining about it bubbling inside a sizable population here in OKC. Seems to me that diversity has a place for rednecks also. Or do you feel you are one of the creative people that is not being welcomed? I do not understand your position. The people you claim not to trust are the people that "we the people" elected. If you do not trust them for something specifically, you need to start a recall petition.

GMWise, as I said, I have no illusion that anything I've written will prompt anyone who has already decided to vote no to change his/her mind. My audience was those who are undecided.

> Why are we going for the convention/tourism dollar only?

For the same reason other communities do. Outside dollars come in, get spent and the folks spending those then depart. Your community benefits from those dollars. And in addition, the residents also have access to the facilities.

A beauty of MAPs is you're by and large not relying on covering interest on debt (though yes there is some), so your costs are down.

You're relying on outsiders to help raise the money, one estimate I've seen is in the 30% range for all MAPs dollars come from touristas and other out of towners, commuters and generic passer throughs.

So while MAPs is not solely about bringing in tourista funds, every dollar that does come from outside OKC is a dollar not needed for an OKC resident.

On a much smaller scale, it's why Norman has a new conference center and hotel, by far the nicest in our county and for miles and miles except for downtown OKC. We also want dollars from elsewhere coming into our community, so the developer for the Embassy was heavily courted to come here with it.

I like our growth down here, and I like what OKC is doing up there, and I think positive growth in OKC also helps us in Norman.

I am just saying the high cost of fuel, the health and security concerns as well as the cutbacks companies and individual have make most recently.
Tourism and the Convention business is NOT a sure thing.

I am just saying the high cost of fuel, the health and security concerns as well as the cutbacks companies and individual have make most recently.
Tourism and the Convention business is NOT a sure thing.

Nothing is a sure thing. But we do have a track record and the ability to project within a certain margin.

Our tourism dollars have grown exponentially. With a nice convention center capable of holding larger events, we will get more convention business. This is good for our economy because guests spend money here, pay room taxes, pay sales taxes, give a boost to our service industries, shop our retail stores, etc.

There is not much downside.

Of course, we also could get hit by a giant meteor.

Good grief Wise, you have aligned yourself on the "redneck" side of the Maps3 issue and you seem to be complaining about it bubbling inside a sizable population here in OKC. Seems to me that diversity has a place for rednecks also. Or do you feel you are one of the creative people that is not being welcomed? I do not understand your position. The people you claim not to trust are the people that "we the people" elected. If you do not trust them for something specifically, you need to start a recall petition.

If you want MAPS3 to include what I define as diversity, you need to rid yourselves of people like Sally Kern types.
Its not the only thing but when you have backwards people like that.
They set Oklahoma and Oklahoma City back years if not decades.
It is already hard to encourage some to consider moving here to work at local employers

If you want MAPS3 to include what I define as diversity, you need to rid yourselves of people like Sally Kern types.
Its not the only thing but when you have backwards people like that.
They set Oklahoma and Oklahoma City back years if not decades.
It is already hard to encourage some to consider moving here to work at local employers

Who is on Sally Kern's side? Not me. And if I had to guess, I would be willing to bet Mrs. Kern is as anti-MAPS as she can get.

FWIW, the anti-MAPS crowd seems to be a bastion of rednecks.

If you want MAPS3 to include what I define as diversity, you need to rid yourselves of people like Sally Kern types.
Its not the only thing but when you have backwards people like that.
They set Oklahoma and Oklahoma City back years if not decades.
It is already hard to encourage some to consider moving here to work at local employers
Not disagreeing with what you said about Ms. Kern, but she's not a member of the city council and hopefully never will be.

Not disagreeing with what you said about Ms. Kern, but she's not a member of the city council and hopefully never will be.



No, thankfully, that bitch is a resident of Warr Acres.

No, thankfully, that bitch is a resident of Warr Acres.
Thank you Jesus!

Personally, I believe that it's things like MAPS that help diversify us. Many of the projects would appeal to the so-called "creative class". It should make our city appeal to those who are the antithesis of people like Sally Kern.

There are people like Sally Kern in every city in this country. it is what it is. We give Sally way too much attention, moreso than the general population who is Oklahoma-unaware.

There are people like Sally Kern in every city in this country. it is what it is. We give Sally way too much attention, moreso than the general population who is Oklahoma-unaware.
That's so, but Kern is a high-profile special case. Ignore the roaches and they merely multiply. The squeaky clean guardian of our morality and witch-burner from Warr Acres (who, in the national press, is unfortunately NOT identified as being from Warr Acres but instead is identified with Oklahoma City) has brought derisive national and in one instance international attention to our city on at least two occasions that I'm aware of.

She equates my representative in the state Legislature, Al McAffrey, as being more dangerous to American society than Muslim terrorists. I've never met him, but from what I've observed from a distance he is a class act. I cannot begin to describe the depth and strength of my contempt for Rep. Sally Kern, even though I've not met her, either.

It is simply not sufficient to ignore her. It is incumbent upon us to publicly and aggressively repudiate her and what she stands for at every turn. At least, that's my opinion.

There are people like Sally Kern in every city in this country. it is what it is. We give Sally way too much attention, moreso than the general population who is Oklahoma-unaware.

There may be fundy nutjobs in Chicago, Seattle, Portland, New York, Boston, etc., but they don't keep getting reelected -- and indeed, aren't getting elected in the first place.

West OKC/Warr Acres/Bethany is a pretty special place in that regard.

And yes, Betts, you are right about MAPS being a positive catalyst to draw and retain the creative class to our city. It will be very effective in that way.

Our tourism dollars have grown exponentially. With a nice convention center capable of holding larger events, we will get more convention business. This is good for our economy because guests spend money here, pay room taxes, pay sales taxes, give a boost to our service industries, shop our retail stores, etc.

There is not much downside.

I was in general agreement about the Convention Center (though it polls badly because most don't see it as anything they will end up using). It is because of that I supported it. Along the lines of what you were saying, any out of area and especially out of state money is a good thing.

But the downside is it costing us more than we are getting in return? Even if the projected numbers from the Chamber are correct, including the economic impact multiplier effect factored in (6 to 7 times). It will take 25 YEARS (see below)

Doug and I had the following exchange in the Great MAPS 3 debate:


...As the the convention center, I disagree. I am persuaded that a convention center can and does generate lots of money to the local economy. The only questions are (1) how much, and (2) is the amount worth the expense to put the city in a position to garner much larger conventions than we can presently attract? With a convention center smaller than Tulsa and Wichita, we are presumably missing out on convention revenue. That fact doesn't answer #2, but I'd suppose it's answer to be "yes."

The answer to #1 may be in the Chamber's Convention Study:


In recent years, the Cox Center has been responsible for generating an estimated average of $592,000 annually in city sales tax receipts...

So for the $60M in Myriad/Cox upgrades under MAPS 1, we are getting $592K per/year directly. To keep the math simple, presume that none of those tax $$$ would have existed without the upgrades. The $60M was completed 10 years ago in 1999. Quick and dirty math indicates a total of 101 years to for those two numbers to equal out. If the economic impact multiplier is used the number drops but still takes a long time. Rule of thumb says economic impact is the amount of NEW money being spent multiplied by 6 or 7 times (which most of the C.C. business is NEW money and lets presume that it is 100% NEW money). It brings it down to just under 15 years. The Cox will have JUST started paying for itself a few years before it is replaced and we start the cycle all over again.

From the Chamber's study for the new C.C.:


It is estimated that the operations of a new convention center could increase annual tax collections in these specific areas to approximately $1.6 million in city sales tax receipts...
(That's 2.7 times what we get with the Cox, sounds great but when you include the additional cost, not so much).

#2. So, how many years before the new C.C. cost/revenue numbers meet? Quick and dirty math indicates it will be 175 years. Even if talking total economic impact, presuming the full 7 times, that decreases the 175 years down to 25 years. (This is just for the Phase 1 under MAPS 3, when you add in the additional cost for Phase 2 in MAPS 4 or whatever, the time gets extended even further).

mugofbeer asked:

Is the $600K (to round off) of tax receipts directly from rentals of the Cox Facilities or does that include the directly-related receipts from Hotel/Motel taxes, rental car taxes, sales taxes from shopping and restaurants, etc?

Only had the partial quote when I made the initial post. Here is the complete paragraph (Chamber's Convention Study, page 16).


In recent years, the Cox Center has been responsible for generating an estimated average of $592,000 annually in city sales tax receipts; and hotel occupancy taxes totaling $212,000 used for State Fairgrounds improvements, $141,000 used for the Oklahoma City Convention and Visitors Bureau and $35,000 for sponsoring special events. It is estimated that the operations of a new convention center could increase annual tax collections in these specific areas to approximately $1.6 million in city sales tax receipts, $580,000 in revenue for State Fairgrounds improvements, $386,000 in funding for the OCCVB and $97,000 to help sponsor special events.

Some of the others mug mentioned (shopping and restaurants, etc) would be covered in the economic impact multiplier which brings the point where the cost and the revenue eventually meet down but still a long time.

That's so, but Kern is a high-profile special case. Ignore the roaches and they merely multiply. The squeaky clean guardian of our morality and witch-burner from Warr Acres (who, in the national press, is unfortunately NOT identified as being from Warr Acres but instead is identified with Oklahoma City) has brought derisive national and in one instance international attention to our city on at least two occasions that I'm aware of.

She equates my representative in the state Legislature, Al McAffrey, as being more dangerous to American society than Muslim terrorists. I've never met him, but from what I've observed from a distance he is a class act. I cannot begin to describe the depth and strength of my contempt for Rep. Sally Kern, even though I've not met her, either.

It is simply not sufficient to ignore her. It is incumbent upon us to publicly and aggressively repudiate her and what she stands for at every turn. At least, that's my opinion.

Exactly!

Exactly!

I'm with you on this issue. However, not being a resident of Warr Acres, I don't know what the public sentiment in her district is. I wonder what the chances of unseating her might be.

Alot easier if churches are required to be audited.
I suspect her husband's congregation is contributing to the church, and somehow is engaged in money laundering, maybe even paying for the signs.The bodies and so forth.
I say this because we had a political candidate come to our church several years ago and told us how to do it, he was a right winger..justice was served, he lost.

We would all love for MAPS 3 project number 9 to be the construction of a new home for Kern back in Idaho, but that's not gonna happen.

We would all love for MAPS 3 project number 9 to be the construction of a new home for Kern back in Idaho, but that's not gonna happen.

I was thinking a family vault.

Did we forget that last summer several triathletes got sick from swimming in the nasty OKLAHOMA RIVER!! Now tell me that you would go do the water rapids, this will be a project that will not be built !

The whitewater project won't be connected to the river. It will not use river water.

Did we forget that last summer several triathletes got sick from swimming in the nasty OKLAHOMA RIVER!! Now tell me that you would go do the water rapids, this will be a project that will not be built !

That issue has been fixed. The problem was caused by effluent runoff from the stockyards and it will no longer be an issue.

That said, the water running in any river adjacent to any city in the world is bound to be funktastic.

Who is on Sally Kern's side? Not me. And if I had to guess, I would be willing to bet Mrs. Kern is as anti-MAPS as she can get.

FWIW, the anti-MAPS crowd seems to be a bastion of rednecks.

When someone calls to schedule a convention at our new downtown convention center, I doubt that they their plans will be cancelled if Sally Kern is in town--GOOD GREIF

When someone calls to schedule a convention at our new downtown convention center, I doubt that they their plans will be cancelled if Sally Kern is in town--GOOD GREIF

?

I'm for MAPS. I don't believe I understand your post.

Kern just gives us a bad name when she spouts off about gays and it makes national news. Other than that, she's just a really bad legislator whom no one cares about except the apparently braindead constituents who continue to elect her.

Did we forget that last summer several triathletes got sick from swimming in the nasty OKLAHOMA RIVER!! Now tell me that you would go do the water rapids, this will be a project that will not be built !

As stated in several posts, the water rapids will have an independant water source and WILL NOT USE WATER FROM THE RIVER. It is planned for a yet to be determined location NEAR THE RIVER, NOT ON THE RIVER

?

I'm for MAPS. I don't believe I understand your post.

Kern just gives us a bad name when she spouts off about gays and it makes national news. Other than that, she's just a really bad legislator whom no one cares about except the apparently braindead constituents who continue to elect her.

Every State and every City has their village idiot, I just don't see her being here and in office as a barrier.

Every State and every City has their village idiot, I just don't see her being here and in office as a barrier.

That is arguable. There aren't many elected officials in other cities saying gays are worst than the 9-11 terrorists.

For those of us who have worked in the PR profession, it's not good pub for our city, and cost us at least one prospective employer. Her comments were terribly ill-timed when we had a prospective company from out of state visiting.

Words do matter. A lot of people think she represents the average viewpoint in OKC, and this is untrue, as she represents a very nutty district. She probably couldn't be elected in the central part of the city.

It's estimated that if (WHEN) MAPS3 passes, it will cost the average person $10.00 per month, to me that's well worth it for the increase in quality of life it provides for all citizens.

It is not about $10.00 per month to me. The city leaders probably would have received alot more needed support if they would have been smart enough to hold off on mandatory cuts city wide until after the election was over. When this does not pass, they will look back on that. It is just not fair to have public safety and city services decline while everything else is booming and it sure does not make sense. The yes folks and the newspaper will tell you only what they want you to know. I have a friend that works for the newspaper and he tells me that they were told not to print any editorials that favor no and that they are also paying employees to work on the yes campaign on the side. Also has any every thought that maybe some of the maps projects could and should be done by the private industry. Good luck to all and happy hoildays, I will be glad when this is over and remember that it is just a vote and these things are just material things. Be healthy and be safe.

It is not about $10.00 per month to me. The city leaders probably would have received alot more needed support if they would have been smart enough to hold off on mandatory cuts city wide until after the election was over. When this does not pass, they will look back on that. It is just not fair to have public safety and city services decline while everything else is booming and it sure does not make sense. The yes folks and the newspaper will tell you only what they want you to know. I have a friend that works for the newspaper and he tells me that they were told not to print any editorials that favor no and that they are also paying employees to work on the yes campaign on the side. Also has any every thought that maybe some of the maps projects could and should be done by the private industry. Good luck to all and happy hoildays, I will be glad when this is over and remember that it is just a vote and these things are just material things. Be healthy and be safe.

No, it's not just a vote. It affects our city's future. Budgets are being cut because tax revenue collections are down. A vote for MAPS will ultimately bring more investment, visitation, and growth to our city, which will lead to higher tax revenues in the future.

We cannot afford to let a pissing match between two trade unions and the city affect all of us. We need to vote what is going to be best for our city in the future. This economic downturn will pass, and if we have passed MAPS 3, we will be that much more positioned for growth.

We cannot let our city stagnate over internal city politics. Vote YES for our city's future! VOTE YES FOR MAPS 3!

Damn if I could only vote by absentee ballot, but I cannot. So it's a virtual yes.

No, it's not just a vote. It affects our city's future. Budgets are being cut because tax revenue collections are down. A vote for MAPS will ultimately bring more investment, visitation, and growth to our city, which will lead to higher tax revenues in the future.

We cannot afford to let a pissing match between two trade unions and the city affect all of us. We need to vote what is going to be best for our city in the future. This economic downturn will pass, and if we have passed MAPS 3, we will be that much more positioned for growth.

We cannot let our city stagnate over internal city politics. Vote YES for our city's future! VOTE YES FOR MAPS 3!

The city will be fine with or without Maps 3.

No, it's not just a vote. It affects our city's future. Budgets are being cut because tax revenue collections are down. A vote for MAPS will ultimately bring more investment, visitation, and growth to our city, which will lead to higher tax revenues in the future.

We cannot afford to let a pissing match between two trade unions and the city affect all of us. We need to vote what is going to be best for our city in the future. This economic downturn will pass, and if we have passed MAPS 3, we will be that much more positioned for growth.

We cannot let our city stagnate over internal city politics. Vote YES for our city's future! VOTE YES FOR MAPS 3!

I couldn't agree with you more, it is unfortunate the timing of the cutbacks but the fact is the cutbacks themselves underscore the critical need for public investment from the MAPS 3 initiative! Wether or not you think each of the projects individually are the best, the cumulative effect of the passage will create jobs and continue to improve the quality of life making it much more attractive to companies who are looking relocate.

VOTE YES, VOTE YES!!!!!!!!!!!

The city will be fine with or without Maps 3.

No, the city will be the same without MAPS 3. With MAPS 3, it will be better.

I like Betts' analogy of keeping up your house and making improvements.

This city will see no move forward without MAPS 3. It will stay the same. For some people this is fine. For more people, I hope the vote shows tomorrow, this is stagnation.

MAPS 3 will improve the city.