Good observation and objective viewpoint! It just amazes me that many of the naysayers do not have all their facts straight. Do people not know the difference between private and public development? If I lived in OKC I would vote "YES", because your city deserves a chance to continue improving it's image and making it a more desirable place to live,work and play. I understand that people have the right to vote No however, most of the no voters have very weak arguments as to why we should not vote for it. The city leaders have shown accountability and the proof that MAPS does work and they have made good on their promise. MAPS 3 has something for everyone in OKC, and you naysayers that disagree, I have to wonder that you people must be the most boring and complacent individuals that hinders progress and vision.


Progressiveboy,

I am a private developer and I can assure you that I know the difference between the 2. lol. If you think my argument is weak, read my latest post, that should just about sum it up. Leave the development to the private developers, not the mayor and his guys who are trying to convince us to foot the bill for the wants and desires of the few. If those guys want to get in the development business, they can do it like the rest of us, with their own money, not the tax payers....The people/residents that stand to gain from those projects need to foot the bill for them not the taxpayers. I know that is not an option, lol. There are many residents of OKC, who could care less about the proposed projects, because they would very seldom or never use them. It doesnt make them old fashioned, unhealthy and whatever other reason you guys can come up to try substantiate your point.

No, it's not pretty as a park, and you can't drive your SUV to it, but that doesn't mean it's toothless like you like to classify anything that disagrees with you. "Everyone is suffering" isn't an argument for a tax increase, no matter how many times people say it.
There are many residents of OKC, who could care less about the proposed projects, because they would very seldom or never use them. It doesnt make them old fashioned, unhealthy and whatever other reason you guys can come up to try substantiate your point.

Preach it!

From what I gather on their arguments, the anti-MAPS group thinks "no" will send a message to the city about setting feasible priorities, recognizing the concerns of citizens being asked to pay for projects while the city is laying them off, and a desire for transparency in government, which can't be done if you give a blank check every time they ask.

No, it's not pretty as a park, and you can't drive your SUV to it, but that doesn't mean it's toothless like you like to classify anything that disagrees with you.

That's funny...the only "anti-MAPS group" I see are the unions who are trying to punish the city for not meeting their demands...

Progressiveboy,

I am a private developer and I can assure you that I know the difference between the 2. lol. If you think my argument is weak, read my latest post, that should just about sum it up. Leave the development to the private developers, not the mayor and his guys who are trying to convince us to foot the bill for the wants and desires of the few. If those guys want to get in the development business, they can do it like the rest of us, with their own money, not the tax payers....The people/residents that stand to gain from those projects need to foot the bill for them not the taxpayers. I know that is not an option, lol. There are many residents of OKC, who could care less about the proposed projects, because they would very seldom or never use them. It doesnt make them old fashioned, unhealthy and whatever other reason you guys can come up to try substantiate your point.

Private developer? YIKES...No wonder BOB is against a program for rebuilding the inter-city.....He's for URBAN SPRAWL!!!!

That's funny...the only "anti-MAPS group" I see are the unions who are trying to punish the city for not meeting their demands...

Have you tried looking? I've talked to anti-MAPS people who weren't city employees, aren't fans of LEO, and who live in the city who are against it, just like I've talked to pro-MAPS people who don't live in Gaillardia, drive Bentley's and pay for $10 lattes. It's not that hard if you look. I've tried to get both sides to give me info to make an informed decision myself, and not once have I turned to either of the unions (as Iron could probably tell you, I'm not a fan of police officers in general).

That's funny...the only "anti-MAPS group" I see are the unions who are trying to punish the city for not meeting their demands...
There are numerous businesses that are voting NO and don't want THIS maps. They don't want to come out publically for obvious reasons. Don't think every business is FOR MAPS.

Really BOB? The only campaign I see against MAPS 3 is the one being paid for by the unions.

Apparently those other "equally powerful groups" don't feel strongly enough about it to make their position publicly known or they're figments of your imagination...

Care to spell out just who you're talking about?

I don't think ABSOLUTELY NO will be a voting option :dizzy:

I dont care to spell them out, lol.
Their position will be known on December 8th.
Thanks for the interest though.

Have you tried looking? I've talked to anti-MAPS people who weren't city employees, aren't fans of LEO, and who live in the city who are against it, just like I've talked to pro-MAPS people who don't live in Gaillardia, drive Bentley's and pay for $10 lattes. It's not that hard if you look. I've tried to get both sides to give me info to make an informed decision myself, and not once have I turned to either of the unions (as Iron could probably tell you, I'm not a fan of police officers in general).

Oh yea, I've been paying close attention. You still haven't mentioned any "anti-MAPS group" besides the unions...

There are numerous businesses that are voting NO and don't want THIS maps. They don't want to come out publically for obvious reasons. Don't think every business is FOR MAPS.


I dont care to spell them out, lol.
Their position will be known on December 8th.
Thanks for the interest though.

Oh..... so they're super double secret "anti-MAPS groups" other than the unions...now that's funny stuff!!!!

http://www.okcissues.com/okcissues.com/Links_&_Documents_files/Mick%20Cornett%20for%20Congress.mov

Listen to this. He's teamed up with the Chamber who fought against bothering the Illegal immigrants....LOL

Against big government...against more TAXS....True conservative....

I laughed the whole time....

He's a "Flip Flopper"...

Private developer? YIKES...No wonder BOB is against a program for rebuilding the inter-city.....He's for URBAN SPRAWL!!!!


Actually, I am for the development of the inner city as well as outer areas of the city. I just dont agree with the way that this MAPS 3 proposal is being portrayed. I dont agree with ballot and the motivation behind it.

Oh by the way, this no voter could be swayed if you can talk your people into adding another 100 million or so to build a 36 hole golf course at draper lake, it would be a perfect place to build a golf course. I know for a fact that Mayor Cornett and ex- Mayor Norick are avid golfers. Let's do it.

You cant be serious. You say its a good idea to commit $100 million of MAPS3dollars to build two golf courses? At Stanley Draper? This just shows how out of touch you and Iron are.

And wow, bobthebuilder must be the only private developer in OKC that is against MAPS3.

Actually, I am for the development of the inner city as well as outer areas of the city. I just dont agree with the way that this MAPS 3 proposal is being portrayed. I dont agree with ballot and the motivation behind it.


What developments in the inter-city have you participated in, BOB?

Oh yea, I've been paying close attention. You still haven't mentioned any "anti-MAPS group" besides the unions...

When I used "groups" I wasn't talking about organized resistance, I was talking about people who didn't support, and many who were completely outside the control of the union. Is that better for your semantics?

And wow, bobthebuilder must be the only private developer in OKC that is against MAPS3.

Is there a list of private developers living in OKC that are for MAPS3?

Oh yea, I've been paying close attention. You still haven't mentioned any "anti-MAPS group" besides the unions...
They do not have to be a so-called group to be labeled no voters, but if you must have another group try killthismaps.com lead by a ex-legislator.

When I used "groups" I wasn't talking about organized resistance, I was talking about people who didn't support it in a broad sense, a lot of whom aren't in the union's pockets. Is that better for your semantics?

I guess you weren't following the discussion, Chance....

I called out a poster who said that were other equally powerful "anti-Maps groups" besides the the unions. I asked who they were...

Turns out that they just happen to be super double secret groups who can't be named until after the election...LOL

I guess you weren't following the discussion, Chance....

I called out a poster who said that were other equally powerful "anti-Maps groups" besides the the unions. I asked who they were...

Turns out that they just happen to be super double secret groups who can't be named until after the election...LOL

I guess reading isn't your strong suit, I wasn't responding to you when I made the first statement. I was responding to what Betts asked, and didn't weigh in at all on the discussion you created. You ended up taking it and trying to talk about something that doesn't have any bearing on if a person on the fence, like I am, should vote for or against it.

When it comes to the 3 City Unions (Police, Fire. AFSCME) you can take it to the bank--it's all about the money, if they had been given or promised raises before MAPS3 was sent to a vote by the people, all three of them would have thrown their support for it's approval. I also have a hard time supporting the Unions when all three Union presidents are paid by the City.

All city employees have a lot to be thankful for, good pay and benefits that no other City or State employer can match:

Sick and VL (start the day hired)
Tuition reimbursement (and some get a pay raise when they get a degree that the City pays for.
Health and Dental (for employee and family at a cost of over $10,000 a year for every employee, including retired employees.

All this, and they cry for more!!

You wrote...


From what I gather on their arguments, the anti-MAPS group thinks "no" will send a message to the city about setting feasible priorities, recognizing the concerns of citizens being asked to pay for projects while the city is laying them off, and a desire for transparency in government, which can't be done if you give a blank check every time they ask.

No, it's not pretty as a park, and you can't drive your SUV to it, but that doesn't mean it's toothless like you like to classify anything that disagrees with you. "Everyone is suffering" isn't an argument for a tax increase, no matter how many times people say it.

I responded to you...


That's funny...the only "anti-MAPS group" I see are the unions who are trying to punish the city for not meeting their demands...

You responded...


Have you tried looking? I've talked to anti-MAPS people who weren't city employees, aren't fans of LEO, and who live in the city who are against it, just like I've talked to pro-MAPS people who don't live in Gaillardia, drive Bentley's and pay for $10 lattes. It's not that hard if you look. I've tried to get both sides to give me info to make an informed decision myself, and not once have I turned to either of the unions (as Iron could probably tell you, I'm not a fan of police officers in general).

So...the only group you know of isn't actually a group...

Bobbyboy,

As a private developer, you can obviously talk about blank checks. I agree with you that this Maps plan is poorly constructed. Just like a lot of the new properties being built in this city! I see not much difference between the City leaders taking our tax money for pet projects and developers throwing up these poorly constructed neighborhoods and HAULING away the wheelbarrels of money that they overcharge the buyers. But like the citizens who will vote yes on MAPS, I guess you get what you pay for. (or sometimes you don't) Like the TV segments of in your corner or consumer watch say, never pay up front, and never work with someone who is unwilling to give you a detailed contract of what you are paying for. Hmmm is that what we are voting for?

You wrote...

I responded to you...

You responded...

So...the only group you know of isn't actually a group...

I responded to Betts, where the word "group" (note how it's singular, not plural) would obviously be used to denote the overall segment of the population that were not for it and the combined statements of reasons they were against it.

You took it and created your own pointless semantic discussion based on your own definition of the word "group", instead wanting me to try to come up with organized resistance that had no ties two either of the groups you mentioned. I misunderstood and didn't think that you were wanting to create a pointless semantic discussion based on your re-definition of the word I used, and once I figured it out that you were, I decided that such an argument was pointless and that I had no interest in trying to prove the arbitrary point you wanted to claim I was trying to disprove.

I care about getting a varied source of facts and opinion to make an informed decision, not what the definition of "is" is.

What developments in the inter-city have you participated in, BOB? Good question! We are waiting for your response BOB??

You cant be serious. You say its a good idea to commit $100 million of MAPS3dollars to build two golf courses? At Stanley Draper? This just shows how out of touch you and Iron are.

And wow, bobthebuilder must be the only private developer in OKC that is against MAPS3.


Is there a list of private developers living in OKC that are for MAPS3?

Still waiting on that list of private developers that are for MAPS3...

Still waiting on that list of private developers that are for MAPS3...

Now you're being silly. Having a disagreement is one thing but silliness is another.

Now you're being silly. Having a disagreement is one thing but silliness is another.

How is it silly? Someone accused Bobthebuilder of being the only private developer who is voting No. I'd like to see the list of private developers who are for MAPS3.

I called out a poster who said that were other equally powerful "anti-Maps groups" besides the the unions. I asked who they were..

Other than Unions they seem to be teabaggers and anti-tax groups looking to use Ron Paul's Campaign for Liberty organization to execute its campaign.

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/three-maps-3-campaigns-file-fundraising-reports/article/3421660?custom_click=lead_story_title)

How is it silly? Someone accused Bobthebuilder of being the only private developer who is voting No. I'd like to see the list of private developers who are for MAPS3.

You're being silly.....

You're being silly.....

No, seriously. Explain how it is silly for me to want a list of the Private developers who are for MAPS3.

Bobthebuilder was accused of something, I'd like to know it it is true or not. If it is true, then I'd like to see which private developers are supporting MAPS3.

Please explain, in detail, why that is silly.

I'd truly like to know.

No, seriously. Explain how it is silly for me to want a list of the Private developers who are for MAPS3.

Bobthebuilder was accused of something, I'd like to know it it is true or not. If it is true, then I'd like to see which private developers are supporting MAPS3.

Please explain, in detail, why that is silly.

I'd truly like to know.

I dont need a list, I just know it would be stupid to be against maps3 if one were a private developer. Why would you be against something that is incredibly positive for your line of work. Could you imagine a concrete company be against a bond for road improvements? Its no different.

Again, we havent heard what kind of developer BOB is, but it doesnt sound like one that is very bright.

Still waiting on that list of private developers that are for MAPS3...

I haven't polled private developers but I have talked to the Odoms and the Mashburns, the two largest developers in SW OKC and they're for MAPS 3...

The South OKC Chamber, the largest collective group of businesses in S OKC is also on board for MAPS 3...

Again, we havent heard what kind of developer BOB is, but it doesnt sound like one that is very bright.

I wouldn't go that far, but it does seem his stance would not be in his best interest. I had the pleasure of attending a recent Urban Land Institute meeting where one of the speakers said something which should be elementary to developers, but to this young, dumb attorney, was pretty insightful. The speaker said that property values were nothing more than a reflection of how much people want to live in a community. A bit simplistic, but at the end of the day, it's tough to argue with that.

So it would seem to me that projects such as MAPS, which will undoubtedly make OKC a more attractive place to live to a lot of folks will inevitably result in higher property values and higher profits for developers.

Why a developer of any kind would want the status quo with regard to real estate prices is totally beyond me.

WOW you yes people are right, why didnt i see this before. I cnat believe i ever thought anything bad form our governemnt. I trust them to do the "RIGHT" thing with the money, lets all give them our first born and trust that they will grow our children to be exceleent leaders like they are. oh what joy.

seriously people if you trust that our governemtn will do it the right way you probably got some waking up todo.

WOW you yes people are right, why didnt i see this before. I cnat believe i ever thought anything bad form our governemnt. I trust them to do the "RIGHT" thing with the money, lets all give them our first born and trust that they will grow our children to be exceleent leaders like they are. oh what joy.

seriously people if you trust that our governemtn will do it the right way you probably got some waking up todo.Ah. I thought you were probably an anarchist.

I wonder how many others have Ronald Reagan as their role model one campaign. Talk about Illegal immigration in one breath and fiscal responsibility. Then a year or so later just SPEND SPEND SPEND. I listened to Kirk Hump on Flash Point as he ranted about the Spending in Washington, corporate welfare and the like. Then he sits their with that smug smile and soaks up and begs for Tax Dollars for MAPS...

Mick is a "flip flopper" Who know what he really is. He'll say anything to win or further his point. He's no different that what the said "Kerry" was. Perfect politician. Talks out of both sides of his mouth.

Then the worst is the "YES" folks are like sheep. Following MICK and the like around blindly...Can I get a BAHHHHHHHHHHHH....

Mr. MAYOR Let's DEBATE on MAPS!!!!! Let citizens hear both sides.

Vote "YES" on MAPS!

Some people never learn (or listen), but yet they want others to listen to them.

I've asked many of the Not This people, 1) if MAPS III doesn't pass, how they would improve the city and 2) would they agree to the city removing the OT contract requirement if the city would hire additional officers/force. ...

Im still waiting on an answer.

But I figured I would be, because it seems as that all their claims are rhetoric. They are trying to go after the mayor and using OKC as hostage. MAPS III should have nothing to do with public safety - but yet these people are so discontent with the mayor that they want to pull a political stunt that could jeopardize OKC's forward momentum for the next few years. NAME ONE private investment downtown that is slated for development anytime in the next 4+ years (aside from Devon)?

OKC needs this shot in the arm, to finish the job of building a tier 2 city. Will there be more work, sure - but we need the foundation and we need a tier 2 foundation in our core; YESTERDAY!!!

I am confident, if the MAPS 3 downtown projects are completed - retail will return to the core and that will create spin-off, that if zoned correctly will result in the high end/profile shopping alternatives that do not exist in this state.

Will somebody get rich developing it? SURE. That is the point of capitalism. Governments all the time gentrify areas to improve the tax base (and quality of life). As long as the rules are fair and equitable and there is proper oversight (and not just the good ole boys), then there is nothing wrong with public investment spurring private development.

No person owns any land adjacent to the central park area today, the city bought it all up. But I would EXPECT the city to sell off sections according to the C2S plan once the park is complete/near complete; and I would expect that the city would receive MORE than what it paid for in the land's current state. (that's also a victory, by the way). ...

I think people need to be less narrow minded and think more globally, think more futuristic - this is about Oklahoma City! That's what MAPS always is, you can't pick through and vote individually - that defeats the purpose of having MAPS in the first place.

Again, do you think the projects will improve OKC's QoL and/or image? Yes Or No.

I think YES - regardless of this or that (I have some bones, just like most people); but overall, we need this investment in our city.

VOTE YES!!!

Some people never learn (or listen), but yet they want others to listen to them.

I've asked many of the Not This people, 1) if MAPS III doesn't pass, how they would improve the city and 2) would they agree to the city removing the OT contract requirement if the city would hire additional officers/force. ...

Im still waiting on an answer.

But I figured I would be, because it seems as that all their claims are rhetoric. They are trying to go after the mayor and using OKC as hostage. MAPS III should have nothing to do with public safety - but yet these people are so discontent with the mayor that they want to pull a political stunt that could jeopardize OKC's forward momentum for the next few years. NAME ONE private investment downtown that is slated for development anytime in the next 4+ years (aside from Devon)?

OKC needs this shot in the arm, to finish the job of building a tier 2 city. Will there be more work, sure - but we need the foundation and we need a tier 2 foundation in our core; YESTERDAY!!!

I am confident, if the MAPS 3 downtown projects are completed - retail will return to the core and that will create spin-off, that if zoned correctly will result in the high end/profile shopping alternatives that do not exist in this state.

Will somebody get rich developing it? SURE. That is the point of capitalism. Governments all the time gentrify areas to improve the tax base (and quality of life). As long as the rules are fair and equitable and there is proper oversight (and not just the good ole boys), then there is nothing wrong with public investment spurring private development.

No person owns any land adjacent to the central park area today, the city bought it all up. But I would EXPECT the city to sell off sections according to the C2S plan once the park is complete/near complete; and I would expect that the city would receive MORE than what it paid for in the land's current state. (that's also a victory, by the way). ...

I think people need to be less narrow minded and think more globally, think more futuristic - this is about Oklahoma City! That's what MAPS always is, you can't pick through and vote individually - that defeats the purpose of having MAPS in the first place.

Again, do you think the projects will improve OKC's QoL and/or image? Yes Or No.

I think YES - regardless of this or that (I have some bones, just like most people); but overall, we need this investment in our city.

VOTE YES!!! Agree. It seems the naysayers have no substantial backup to their rhetoric or that they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the leaders of OKC will not fulfill the promises of MAPS3. All one has to do is look at the undeniable success that MAPS 1 and 2 did for OKC. As I mentioned earlier, many naysayers act like this is a big conspiracy and that MAPS is not in the interest of their own lives? Yes, I am sure that $$$ figures will have to be readjusted and there will probably be cost overruns but the benefit that OKC will receive will be a more well rounded city and that outsiders perception of OKC will change. It is bad that "some" residents in OKC do not want progress no matter at what cost, but when outsiders perceive your city in a negative way then it is time that change must take place in order to remain competitive in the region. Sometimes people have to take a risk and gamble in order for things to get done. It is time to put a little faith in your city leaders and make things happen!

Some people never learn (or listen), but yet they want others to listen to them.

I've asked many of the Not This people, 1) if MAPS III doesn't pass, how they would improve the city and 2) would they agree to the city removing the OT contract requirement if the city would hire additional officers/force. ...


1) Start by re-opening some of the aquatic centers that have been closed over the last few years. MAPS and M4K were hugely successful, right? Then prove it by using the tax revenue earned from the previous MAPS to fund the aquatic centers that were shut down due to lack of funding.

2) I think I read on here that the whole OT thing is a legal requirement, not a contractual one?

I'm not against MAPS3 because of the police/fire union thing anyway so I'm not up to speed on your issue #2.

Progressive, that's what MAPS is - a gamble.

OKC took a gamble, and so far it has worked for 15 years. Whose to say this next gamble will not work? Cornett was in office while the other two MAPS were being completed, do you really think things would change that much because he chose to stick around as mayor (he could have run for Senator or higher) - JUST TO MAKE SURE MAPS 3 and C2S vision gets implemented?

I totally see past the bs most of the naysayers are posting on this forum - they are doing a firesale against the mayor. But when you ask any real question, you get no response, only apathy.

MAPS isn't perfect, and like I have said time and time again 1) I can not stand that the fairgrounds keep milking MAPS when they have several revenue streams already and 2) I think we should have started talking about MAPS 3 LONG before the late September announcement (at least should have been announced in like - June).

But arguing tit for tat and the mayor this and that, has no substance. It is not constructive. And is nothing more than whining and causing trouble. It is also very troubling "trying" to listen to any of their leaders who spit wrong figures and assumptions to scare people into believing their position.

While I could appreciate public safety workers not being able to have time off, yet they have a contract so juicy - most firefighters and dare I say ALL police officers can pull near to over 6 figure salaries; without even working it. ....

Like I said, and so far have NOT seen a response from anybody - do you really want change (as in, would you revise the contract removing the OT provisions replacing with hires)?

Or is this "Not This MAPS" rhetoric really just a song and dance attempt against the mayor's vision for OKC? So far, I have seen no merit and I am tired of having to listen to somebody screaming at the top of their lungs about the lack of public safety funding - when they are guaranteed such an impressive salary regardless if they work it.

I hate to say this, but I wish somebody would come out and call the Not This campaign what it really is. Because now was NOT the time for this. Too bad I'm not an OKC resident anymore - I'd lead the charge.

I have come to the opinion that it is futile to discuss issues with the "NO" folks as their issues are nothing but chaff thrown out to disguise their only issue, which is feathering their nest to the detriment of the good of the city. The understaffing they claim exists may or may not be accurate. We have nothing to prove it one way or the other except for a study they paid for some time back. When they claim they are sincere about their other issues my gag reflex is tested to the limit. Is there any way to get an accurate study done on the staffing problems they claim to have?

WOW you yes people are right, why didnt i see this before. I cnat believe i ever thought anything bad form our governemnt. I trust them to do the "RIGHT" thing with the money, lets all give them our first born and trust that they will grow our children to be exceleent leaders like they are. oh what joy.

seriously people if you trust that our governemtn will do it the right way you probably got some waking up todo.

What is your native language?

If the "NO" folks paid for a study of this issue it seems to me the results would come out in their slant.

I wonder how many others have Ronald Reagan as their role model one campaign. Talk about Illegal immigration in one breath and fiscal responsibility. Then a year or so later just SPEND SPEND SPEND. I listened to Kirk Hump on Flash Point as he ranted about the Spending in Washington, corporate welfare and the like. Then he sits their with that smug smile and soaks up and begs for Tax Dollars for MAPS...

Mick is a "flip flopper" Who know what he really is. He'll say anything to win or further his point. He's no different that what the said "Kerry" was. Perfect politician. Talks out of both sides of his mouth.

Then the worst is the "YES" folks are like sheep. Following MICK and the like around blindly...Can I get a BAHHHHHHHHHHHH....

Mr. MAYOR Let's DEBATE on MAPS!!!!! Let citizens hear both sides.

Some of us "yes people" are sick of the eye sore that occupies the area south of downtown. Others, like you, apparently enjoy the ghetto.

I wonder how many others have Ronald Reagan as their role model one campaign. Talk about Illegal immigration in one breath and fiscal responsibility. Then a year or so later just SPEND SPEND SPEND. I listened to Kirk Hump on Flash Point as he ranted about the Spending in Washington, corporate welfare and the like. Then he sits their with that smug smile and soaks up and begs for Tax Dollars for MAPS...

Mick is a "flip flopper" Who know what he really is. He'll say anything to win or further his point. He's no different that what the said "Kerry" was. Perfect politician. Talks out of both sides of his mouth.

Then the worst is the "YES" folks are like sheep. Following MICK and the like around blindly...Can I get a BAHHHHHHHHHHHH....

Mr. MAYOR Let's DEBATE on MAPS!!!!! Let citizens hear both sides.

Fiscal responsibility does not preclude spending. It essentially means that you don't spend more than you take in (aka deficit spending). Usually, fiscal responsibility discourages debt financing. MAPS is not a debt proposition, like, say, bond measures. It is actually a fiscally responsible measure, especially compared to any kind of dept proposition. It does increase spending, but by no more than revenue.

It is also a represented tax. While you certainly are not voting on where every brick will be laid or what kind of drapes will be hung in the new convention center, you are voting more directly on how it will be spent than with how the majority of your tax dollars are spent.

Also, it's different from federal spending in that your money isn't being taken out of your community and being spent on public transit in Salt Lake City. It is used to improve the infrastructure of your community, in YOUR city. Sure, it's not literally in your backyard (and some seem to be complaining about that), but it will not use structured debt and it will be spent in your city.

Some of us "yes people" are sick of the eye sore that occupies the area south of downtown. Others, like you, apparently enjoy the ghetto.


Some of us "no people" are sick of the eye sores that occupy the rest of the city that make that "ghetto" south of Downtown look like Nichols Hills.

Why is it all about Downtown? OKC is not just Downtown.

really an anarchist? not even close. i just think that most politicians lie steal and cheet to get what they want and most do nothing but look after themselves. I dont like big governement asking the people for large amounts of money and they things that are to be built with the money just happens to help the friends of the mayor..

.
While I could appreciate public safety workers not being able to have time off, yet they have a contract so juicy - most firefighters and dare I say ALL police officers can pull near to over 6 figure salaries; without even working it. ....

Like I said, and so far have NOT seen a response from anybody - do you really want change (as in, would you revise the contract removing the OT provisions replacing with hires)?


You can't believe everything you read in the Jokalhoman. Near to 6 figure salaries refers to a very few at the top ranks of the FD.

You've been answered at least twice that I've seen. The overtime isn't a contractural provision. It's federal law. There it's been answered at least 3 times now.

Guaranteed overtime, whether you work it or not, is a federal law????? Not saying I don't believe you, but could you site that law by it's legal classification where I could research it?

I posted this in another thread, but am going to repost it here (sorry, mods).

The information, or rather, "misinformation" being put forth by the NotThisMaps campaign is laughable. Let's take a look at what they've quoted on their website (http://nomaps3.com/).

Similar language was also included in a flyer that was mailed out (to how many households, I don't know).

Here's what the website (link above) states:


In the past, neither the police or fire departments have opposed the MAPS initiatives, but MAPS 3 has gone too far. Out of ¾ of a billion dollars, not one dime is being spent on education, roads, bridges, infrastructure or emergency services – namely police and fire. This site outlines the numerous reasons why the informed voter will have to vote NO on December 8th.

Does nobody remember the GO Bond issue passed just in December of 2007. The total of the bond package is nearly $800 million, almost $500 million of which is dedicated towards ROADS.

ROADS $497 million: This proposition finances resurfacing, widening and rebuilding of more than 750 lane miles of streets, mostly in residential areas. Walkers will also benefit from the construction of 350 miles of sidewalks and trails.

BRIDGES $19.7 million dedicated to bridge improvements that are UNDER CITY PURVIEW. Many of the bridges, such as I-40 crosstown, are under ODOT. But, why not, let's mislead the public by instilling fear in them. Nothing like "informing" voters.

INFRASTRUCTURE $32.8 in Drainage, $89 million for Parks & Recreation, and the list goes on.

FIRE is getting close to $15 million for new stations

As for EDUCATION, have you heard of MAPS FOR KIDS? A MAPS project which is more or less altruistic in its design as the City reaps few direct economic benefits in the same manner that it has from the original MAPS projects. The City, as in City government, is NOT responsible for basic education funding. THAT is taken care of through the STATE and the OKCPS, paid for through property taxes.

MAPS has and never will be INTENDED for BASIC NEEDS. It has always been about building the types of projects that go well above and beyond what is part of the "basic services package" for the City.

POPSY,
what people fail to know is that the overtime is 12 hours a MONTH. a MONTH. so 3 hours a week. so when we work 24 hours monday, 24 hours wed, 24 hourss friday and only get paid for 16 hours a day of those days we only get paid for 48 out of the 72 hours we are at work. normal jobs ould get paid all 72 hours but the Labor commision has had to make exceptions to the fire department. we dont get paid ot if we come in on our day off and work for someone. but 12 hours a month. dont believe the oklahoman they are all about slander.

its true firrtter girl. if we are getting so much money for roads and everythin you mentioned why are they still in poor shape. did you forget the bong issue in 200 for 2 firestations that the city is still keeping the money. yeah public safety number 1.

Roads are still in poor shape because the City is STILL recovering from a 21-year funding drought (1974-1995) when NO BOND ISSUE projects were passed at all. It was, for all intents and purposes, the voters' fault as the City cannot make improvements without Bond Issue money, and the basic sales taxes which support operating costs, cannot legally provide funding for capital expenses.

The City got behind and is still playing catch up. All people have to do is go back and look at a little bit of history.

Further, the $497 million for roads is meted out each year as the bonds are sold. Many projects are still being funded with 2000 GO Bond money. It will take several years for roads to be improved. They can only close so many lanes at a time.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Nor will Oklahoma City be.

if we are getting so much money for roads and everythin you mentioned why are they still in poor shape.

Because we build too many of them and have too many lane miles to maintain in a manner that would keep people from complaining about them. Hopefully we can find a way to build a public transit system that helps lessen our dependence on roads and consolidate transportation corridors to maximize maintenance dollars per mile, instead of simply building more roads to maintain further and further away that less and less people travel on.

How could we go about starting to build such a system?? Hmmmm... I don't know. I guess we got to start somewhere. Probably a good idea to start in some central location, especially since a lot of the outer areas are getting new roads with the money from the bond issue. What's a central location?? Dowtown seems pretty centralized. If only we had the opportunity to fund a new form a transportation that consolidates maintenance into a few fixed corridors starting with downtown...

Oh wait, no, let's kill that so that maybe someone some day will float some more debt to spend more money on the crappy roads we already have...

you have got to be kidding to say that the reason our roads suck is becuase we have too many of them. really do you think we are the only city in the nation that has this many roads especially this many main roads. sorry but thats not the reason. poor engineering and not spending the money it will take to actually make the raod better is the problem. because you guys want apark instead of sending that money to the roads. no it wont be our park any more than the one down the street is.

you have got to be kidding to say that the reason our roads suck is becuase we have too many of them. really do you think we are the only city in the nation that has this many roads especially this many main roads. sorry but thats not the reason. poor engineering and not spending the money it will take to actually make the raod better is the problem. because you guys want apark instead of sending that money to the roads. no it wont be our park any more than the one down the street is.

You don't know what you are talking about. We have historically been the largest city with the smallest population per square mile. Rather than spend the money on making life better for your children, you would rather spend it on autobahn quality alphalt for every square mile. Wake up and put the automobile it's place. Put it in the garage. Live closer and ride a bike. Better, get a hummer and then you won't have to worry about those pesky potholes.

Roads have nothing to do with MAPS. Transit does.

... The overtime isn't a contractural provision. It's federal law. There it's been answered at least 3 times now.

I think you're misreading the Q hot Rod is asking (or maybe I am)
I'll try to rephrase it to what I think he is asking:

Presumed the city decides it has the will to hire enough staff so that, under the new staffing levels, no one would ever work more than 40 hours in a work period again, i.e. no one would be eligible for overtime pay.
Would either the FD union or the FOP support the city taking this action, knowing the end of overtime would effectively result in paycuts for every one who used to be eligible for and used to work overtime hours.

I have no idea what it would take to reach that manpower level, and I do not know if the city would ever have the will to try it, but would the power of the unions, the rank and file, accept having no more overtime and resulting paycuts?

If I've mistated HR, I'm sure he will correct it.