Thanks Doug, for your always heroic efforts to educate us. I appreciate and respect your opinion.

Larry, McFerron is the Political Strategist for the Chamber's "Yes For MAPS!" campaign. He ran Humphries bid for School Board recently and lost significantly.

I hope the voters are not fooled by these scare tactics which have been employed by our "No" group people--they don't realize the opportunity that awaits this city if MAPS 3 passes. It will be much harder to pass a MAPS initative if this doesn't pass.

They knew before they went to City Hall the other day that they would not be able to speak--all of this is part of a big parade to confuse voters and this City will not profit as a result; jobs will be lost, opportunities will be lost and will be stagnant for another ten years.

These projects are impressive to businesses wanting to move or expand to a new vibrant community such as ours--those of you who are considering voting yes; please get to the polls--those of you leaning toward "No," you need to reconsider.

What do we have to gain by voting down MAPS 3?

Maps was not designed to fix roads, expand police & fire--we lost out on many opportunities for businesses to relocate to our city because of the things we don't have.

A convention center will bring "new money from outside OKC" to area, which will translate into more jobs, more convention business since we are centrally located between the east and west coasts.

Don't pass up this opportunity to improve Oklahoma City's economy, image and make this place more attractive.

I hope the voters are not fooled by these scare tactics which have been employed by our "No" group people--they don't realize the opportunity that awaits this city if MAPS 3 passes. It will be much harder to pass a MAPS initative if this doesn't pass.

They knew before they went to City Hall the other day that they would not be able to speak--all of this is part of a big parade to confuse voters and this City will not profit as a result; jobs will be lost, opportunities will be lost and will be stagnant for another ten years.

These projects are impressive to businesses wanting to move or expand to a new vibrant community such as ours--those of you who are considering voting yes; please get to the polls--those of you leaning toward "No," you need to reconsider.

What do we have to gain by voting down MAPS 3?

Maps was not designed to fix roads, expand police & fire--we lost out on many opportunities for businesses to relocate to our city because of the things we don't have.

A convention center will bring "new money from outside OKC" to area, which will translate into more jobs, more convention business since we are centrally located between the east and west coasts.

Don't pass up this opportunity to improve Oklahoma City's economy, image and make this place more attractive.

It does not matter to me one way or the other how you, or anyone else for that matter votes on MAPS, yes or no. Although I've had a lot to say on this issue, never have I said anything believing I was going cause a yes voter to become a no voter. Why, because I know better. It's not happening.

Now you want to talk about scare tactics. Not only do you want to talk about them, you want to insinuate the no camp are the only side using those type of tactics. Has the No side been lilly white through all of this, no.

However I think it's safe to say the other side may need to wash off a little dirt themselves. Have you read Dougs analysis? If not please do. Look at which side played the scare tactic game, the same game you accuse the no side of the issue of having sole ownership of. Then see who played the cheap shot game. I'll make you a deal, you take responsibility for your half of the BS and I'll do the same for my half. What do you say?

What do we have to gain by voting down MAPS 3?
Ohhhh lets see.......Just about 80 Million dollars a year. You see that money will be put directly into our city. When citizens are able to keep that money they'll spend it here and the city can keep it.

That money will stay here and help our city at a time that's very uncertain. At a time when this city is going to make CUTS. At a time when this city is BROKE!..


Maps was not designed to fix roads, expand police & fire--we lost out on many opportunities for businesses to relocate to our city because of the things we don't have.
We couldn't have a MAPS to help get our roads back into shape? That's ridiculous!!! We can have MAPS for whatever we want! Capital Improvements right?

What businesses have you spoken too that have said if we don't pass THIS MAPS they won't move to OKC. What businesses are going to relocate to OKC because of a "Central Park"? I'm listening...What a joke!!!

Iron, do you honestly think each of us putting twelve dollars a month "into the city" is going to do anything for the economy? What are you going to do with your twelve dollars? One movie? One CD? Half a book? Three hamburgers? Twelve cokes? And who's that money going to go to? Harkins Theaters? United Artists? Barnes and Noble? McDonalds? Coca-Cola. Any of those sound like they're keeping all the money locally? The majority of your twelve dollars is most likely going to leave the city and go into the pockets of corporations located elsewhere.

Each of us would have to pledge to spend every one of those twelve dollars we save locally, to pool our money together and spend it on something that is actually designed to make the city better if we want to make a difference locally. Sound familiar?

And again, did you vote in December 2007, or is this your first foray into local politics? You might check and see what was on that bond issue.

Larry Nichols said that if the first MAPS hadn't passed, he would have moved Devon to Houston. Are you so close with the CEOs of all our local corporations that you know without question we're not at risk for the same thing happening with a different corporation if this one doesn't pass? Have you spoken to every CEO of every company thinking about moving their headquarters to make sure they'll be great with MAPS not passing? Have you done any reading about what corporations are looking for when they relocate? Of course we don't know for sure that passing MAPS is going to cause a business to relocate here. But I can guarantee you that if we don't pass MAPS nothing is going to be done here that will make any CEO look closer. We're far more likely to get new businesses by passing MAPS than by voting it down.

Iron, do you honestly think each of us putting twelve dollars a month "into the city" is going to do anything for the economy? What are you going to do with your twelve dollars? One movie? One CD? Half a book? Three hamburgers? Twelve cokes? And who's that money going to go to? Harkins Theaters? United Artists? Barnes and Noble? McDonalds? Coca-Cola. Any of those sound like they're keeping all the money locally? The majority of your twelve dollars is most likely going to leave the city and go into the pockets of corporations located elsewhere.
12 dollars? mmm. 100 million projected/551000 in pop in OKC. That's $181 dollars per citizen per year.... that's $724 for a family of four per year.. right thats $5068 over 7 years...Median household income in oklahoma is $44,000 a year...so is that almost 2% of their annual income that will be for a Central Park etc..per year... doesn't sound like much but you aren't struggling to make any payments now..lucky you..think though some are may VOTE NO.. I don't have a problem with that. I'm sure not going to think it's an insignificant amount for everyone!

If only one person is working in the home and the other parent is a stay at home parent that's over 3% a year...May not sound like much, but to many families at THIS time it is. That's why not THIS maps at This time.

Have you spoken to every CEO of every company thinking about moving their headquarters to make sure they'll be great with MAPS not passing? Have you done any reading about what corporations are looking for when they relocate? Of course we don't know for sure that passing MAPS is going to cause a business to relocate here. But I can guarantee you that if we don't pass MAPS nothing is going to be done here that will make any CEO look closer. We're far more likely to get new businesses by passing MAPS than by voting it down.
No I haven't. That's what I'm asking for from your side of the argument. What companies CEO's are waiting for the results of MAPS3 to relocate to Oklahoma City. That's what your argument suggests. What companies are moving to Oklahoma City? Names? How many jobs are they bringing? When are they starting to build? That's what the mean when they say "pie in the sky". How can you guarantee me anything? Which CEO's have you spoken to that are moving here when we build a Central Park, Senior Aquatic Center, White water rapids or maybe it's the biking trails that are going to have them start pouring in...:LolLolLol

Come on Betts...you don't believe that...Do you?

> ... 100 million projected/551000 in pop in OKC. That's $181 dollars per
> citizen per year.... that's $724 for a family of four

The above math premise is, not surprisingly, no better than most of the ramblings and misinformation put out by folks who are too busy fussing to think straight.

How anyone, with even a smidgen of education, could be so silly as to argue a sales tax will be borne only by a city's residents is rather sad.

Yes or No, have a happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Stuff yourselves to the gills because tomorrow will be another day for hammering away.

12 dollars? mmm. 100 million projected/551000 in pop in OKC. That's $181 dollars per citizen per year

$181 divided by 12 = $15. Whoops, I was off by $3. That's an average as well, and does not take into consideration any money being put into our economy by visitors. There are people who pay more. There are many people who pay less. Again, what precisely will $15 a month do to improve our economy? How can you apply it directly to the Oklahoma City economy, without that $15 leaving to Atlanta, Chicago, New York, Portland when you buy your coke, your CD, your book, your cup of coffee, your cigarettes, your Nikes? The best way I can think of is MAPS. We know, at least, that the money we spend will directly benefit our city, and indirectly the citizens residing in our city, with more jobs and better quality of life.


No I haven't. That's what I'm asking for from your side of the argument. What companies CEO's are waiting for the results of MAPS3 to relocate to Oklahoma City. That's what your argument suggests. What companies are moving to Oklahoma City? Names? How many jobs are they bringing? When are they starting to build? That's what the mean when they say "pie in the sky". How can you guarantee me anything? Which CEO's have you spoken to that are moving here when we build a Central Park, Senior Aquatic Center, White water rapids or maybe it's the biking trails that are going to have them start pouring in.

Come on Betts...you don't believe that...Do you?

I believe what I stated above. I believe there is a FAR better chance that a company will relocate to Oklahoma City if we pass MAPS than if we don't. Precisely why should the lack of mass transit, the lack of a downtown park, the lack of river improvements, the lack of sidewalks and trails, etc make Oklahoma City attractive to businesses looking to relocate?

Yes or No, have a happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Stuff yourselves to the gills because tomorrow will be another day for hammering away.
Now, that's talkin' turkey! Happy Thanksgiving, all.

Same to everyone else. I actually might finish work today in time to get some warm turkey. Fingers crossed!

> ... 100 million projected/551000 in pop in OKC. That's $181 dollars per
> citizen per year.... that's $724 for a family of four

The above math premise is, not surprisingly, no better than most of the ramblings and misinformation put out by folks who are too busy fussing to think straight.

How anyone, with even a smidgen of education, could be so silly as to argue a sales tax will be borne only by a city's residents is rather sad.

You are 100% right Kevinpate... anyone have any figures on how much of our sales tax base comes from non-OKC residents?

Even math using the entire metro population would be better (less that 1/2 of iron's math)... and it would still be W R O N G!

How anyone, with even a smidgen of education, could be so silly as to argue a sales tax will be borne only by a city's residents is rather sad.
Oh Personal attack!! Personal attack!! :LolLolLol This is the part where most of the Yes votes on this site cry foul!...If I had typed that...
That's a lot like the math betts used for Police Officers. You now see what I was thinking when I read that and she has "high dollar" education. She's a Dr.

Again, what precisely will $15 a month do to improve our economy? How can you apply it directly to the Oklahoma City economy, without that $15 leaving to Atlanta, Chicago, New York, Portland when you buy your coke, your CD, your book, your cup of coffee, your cigarettes, your Nikes?
I guess it will do plenty! It will by other ridiculous math give us $100 million dollars a year. Keep things in perspective if possible. Betts are worried about paying their rent, car payment, getting food for their family. They aren't buying CD's etc..

You are 100% right Kevinpate... anyone have any figures on how much of our sales tax base comes from non-OKC residents?

Even math using the entire metro population would be better (less that 1/2 of iron's math)... and it would still be W R O N G!

Undrstand what you guys are saying and if someone knows the percentage of out of OKC residents would be helpful. Agree a more accurate calculation would be the metro area number. Can also see why he used OKC numbers oonly as they are the only ones allowed to vote. In the end see all sides on this one.

As expressed by others, hope everyone has a great Turkey Day. One thing to be thankful for is the opportunity to have these kinds of debate/discussion.

Agree a more accurate calculation would be the metro area number. Can also see why he used OKC numbers oonly as they are the only ones allowed to vote.

Using just the greater metro area population, though an obvious step toward a more complete answer, is still somewhat apples and oranges. Who can vote for the tax is very unrelated to who pays for the tax.

Even if you draw a 70, 90, 120 mile radius centered around the new Devon site, such a population base would still exclude 100% of every sales tax dollar paid by tourists and other non-metro residents fro outside the radius, whether in town for business or pleasure, or not even in town at all. After all, that method would still exclude every tax dollar from anyone who purchases items subject to sale tax from a local OKC source via phone, internet or mail and then has those items trucked, mailed or otherwise delivered to them.

If it was a personal attack to challenge the position as being abjectly silly for anyone with even a smidgen of education, then so be it. We have mods who can admonish me or take whatever action they deem appropriate.

I offer no retraction. It absolutely is a demonstrably silly proposition, and that is a charitable description.

Common sense facts: maps 3 projects 100 million/yr. & that penny has never made more than 92.5 million a year and that was in good times not like now, 9 straight months of tax decline - over 12% decline last month which in turn will make the current maps for thunder/nba come up well over 15 million short when it expires in March. All construction costs go up yearly which will make alot of the projects cost more than estimates once they are built. Ballot is vague and gets them freedom to do almost anything. Transit ride tickets generally are subsidized 50%, times are bad right now, this should be enough reasons to vote no. This is too big, too vague, and it is not a good time to continue this tax. People need a break, let's fix what we have before we move forward.

times are bad right now, this should be enough reasons to vote no

Well we might as well start planning for soup kitchens then. We would never want to plan for the times to improve anytime during the next 7 1/2 years.

$181 divided by 12 = $15. Whoops, I was off by $3. That's an average as well, and does not take into consideration any money being put into our economy by visitors. There are people who pay more. There are many people who pay less. Again, what precisely will $15 a month do to improve our economy? How can you apply it directly to the Oklahoma City economy, without that $15 leaving to Atlanta, Chicago, New York, Portland when you buy your coke, your CD, your book, your cup of coffee, your cigarettes, your Nikes? The best way I can think of is MAPS. We know, at least, that the money we spend will directly benefit our city, and indirectly the citizens residing in our city, with more jobs and better quality of life.



I believe what I stated above. I believe there is a FAR better chance that a company will relocate to Oklahoma City if we pass MAPS than if we don't. Precisely why should the lack of mass transit, the lack of a downtown park, the lack of river improvements, the lack of sidewalks and trails, etc make Oklahoma City attractive to businesses looking to relocate? Agree with Betts. To many people living in OKC will fight progress no matter what. If I were a CEO of a Fortune 500 company based on what OKC has to offer, I would have to say no thanks. OKC has made strides, however it still has more to make it a more "desirable" place. I hope OKC wins on this vote for the sake of it's future.

Common sense facts: maps 3 projects 100 million/yr. & that penny has never made more than 92.5 million a year and that was in good times not like now, 9 straight months of tax decline - over 12% decline last month ...

Understand what you are saying and I had some of the same concerns about the revenue projections. Those have been resolved and the City's numbers seem fairly solid. Even with using the recession Ford tax shortages as the starting point for the math. Please see my post starting the Retraction thread for details.

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/19846-retraction-maps-3-funding-concerns.html

Using MAPS for Kids, the Mayor stated that they came within $2M of the revenue projections. Did the math on it and that is a 0.4% difference. That is less than a half a percent. I would be thrilled beyond description if they could get their cost estimates that close!

A significant concern lies with the cost side as they are only allowing 2.2% for cost over runs when the City acknowledges that projects average 8% over. And MAPS 1 was 47.75% over what voters were told.

Instead of budgeting $17M (2.2%), they should be allowing a minimum of $62M (8%) upwards to $371M (47.75%).

Agree with Betts. To many people living in OKC will fight progress no matter what. If I were a CEO of a Fortune 500 company based on what OKC has to offer, I would have to say no thanks. OKC has made strides, however it still has more to make it a more "desirable" place. I hope OKC wins on this vote for the sake of it's future.
If you were the CEO, depending on the company. You'd do exactly what is bringing the downfall of this country. Which is, move all of your jobs to another country. Just like DELL is doing. After getting millions in tax breaks they are slowly doing just that.

Well we might as well start planning for soup kitchens then. We would never want to plan for the times to improve anytime during the next 7 1/2 years.
Oh yes. If THIS doesn't pass were going back to "soup kitchens". We'll go backward..."don't loss the momentum!!!" It will be another 7 1/2 years until we have anymore growth in this city. NO other Businesses will move to OKC...Don't Stop Progress!!! Give me a break!

I offer no retraction. It absolutely is a demonstrably silly proposition, and that is a charitable description.
No, I don't care if you retract the statement. Oh well, thank you for being so kind with your "Charitable description". Don't whine when I return the favor. I've been admonished several times for the same thing. I can assure you i've done the same..."charitable descriptions"... :LolLolLol

Quick question to anyone who might know: Are they planning on tearing down the State Fair Speedway to build the new convention space or is it going just south of that?

Oh yes. If THIS doesn't pass were going back to "soup kitchens". We'll go backward..."don't loss the momentum!!!" It will be another 7 1/2 years until we have anymore growth in this city. NO other Businesses will move to OKC...Don't Stop Progress!!! Give me a break!

Wow, you really lack basic reading comprehension. I hope what you do for a living doesn't require following directions.

Well we might as well start planning for soup kitchens then. We would never want to plan for the times to improve anytime during the next 7 1/2 years.I'm not sure we'll get to the point of needing soup kitchens. However, if we do, things are more likely to go as planned, if you have a plan. I hope we are planning for improvment over the next 7 1/2 years.

Doug's information on his blog is some the fairest, most neutral writings I have seen during the whole run up to the vote. An interesting part is that both sides are maybe pushing their agendas for hidden reasons. We can discuss the post-mortem after the vote. Good public policy should include a wide variety of stakeholders in the conversation. The projects are not guaranteed and can be changed by any future city council. They could have put each project up for a vote. The average cost of the tax will be $1000 a person or $4000 per family. I put this together to add to the debate ;) video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHAd1PjYLSE) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2651/4138849931_6949601741.jpg YouTube Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHAd1PjYLSE) The Math: The figures come from Tom Anderson - project coordinator for the city, a past city budget director, and Mark Snead /OSU Economics Professor and OKC's Budget Forecaster. When confronted the Chamber president Roy Williams agreed.

Quick question to anyone who might know: Are they planning on tearing down the State Fair Speedway to build the new convention space or is it going just south of that?

Have not seen anything to suggest the convention center will go anywhere other than between the river and downtown, and closer to downtown.

Some of the other construction specifically planned for the fairground might impact the speedway somehow, but not the convention center.

Doug's information on his blog is some the fairest, most neutral writings I have seen during the whole run up to the vote. An interesting part is that both sides are maybe pushing their agendas for hidden reasons. We can discuss the post-mortem after the vote. Good public policy should include a wide variety of stakeholders in the conversation. The projects are not guaranteed and can be changed by any future city council. They could have put each project up for a vote. The average cost of the tax will be $1000 a person or $4000 per family. I put this together to add to the debate ;) video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHAd1PjYLSE) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2651/4138849931_6949601741.jpg YouTube Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHAd1PjYLSE)

In another thread, David, I did the math showing that to spend the $1500 you claim over just a 7 year period, you'd have to spend $1783/month on taxable items. Unlikely for the average Oklahoman.

But for $4000? $4000/7 = 571/12=$47.58/month.

If $47.58 = 1% of x, then x = $4,758.00 you're claiming the average family spends on taxable purchases.

Maybe in some parts of Oklahoma City, but not in average parts of Oklahoma City is that true.

1. Midtowner watch the whole video you miss big parts. 2. Are you calling City and Chamber officials liars? This is their math not mine. The Math: The figures come from Tom Anderson - project coordinator for the city, a past city budget director, and Mark Snead /OSU Economics Professor and OKC's Budget Forecaster. When confronted the Chamber president Roy Williams agreed.

1. Midtowner watch the whole video you miss big parts. 2. Are you calling City and Chamber officials liars? This is their math not mine. The Math: The figures come from Tom Anderson - project coordinator for the city, a past city budget director, and Mark Snead /OSU Economics Professor and OKC's Budget Forecaster. When confronted the Chamber president Roy Williams agreed.

So if Tom Anderson says the average family of four pays over $4,000 per month in OKC on taxable purchases, then that somehow makes what you're selling more credible.

Tell me this -- does your family spend this much on taxable purchases? Do you even know any families where this is the case?

I'm here to tell ya -- I come from a pretty well-to-do family and we never spent anywhere close to that except when making major purchases. I also practice family law in OKC with mid-to-high-income clients. In the course of doing this, I have to become very familiar with their personal finances -- probably even more familiar than my clients are. I rarely see that sort of spending going on -- and when I do? The bulk is spent on debt service for purchases not subject to sales tax.

In short, you're either presenting this information in a very misleading/false manner, or your source is wrong. I'm guessing the former.

I'm here to tell ya -- I come from a pretty well-to-do family
Everyone knows that. Your always right mentality supports it.

1. Midtowner watch the whole video you miss big parts. 2. Are you calling City and Chamber officials liars?
Good question. In Midtowner's world he's the authority on everything. Not one side or the other. There are those FACTS. Then there is Midtowner's world and we're just living in it. :doh: LOL

Doug's information on his blog is some the fairest, most neutral writings I have seen during the whole run up to the vote.
Agreed.

Hi, David. How've you been? Hope your mom is well. Thanks for the nice comment. Naturally, I'll be writing a piece about why I'm voting yes, to accompany the other kinds of articles, but not just yet.

I hadn't noticed you posting about MAPS 3 before the above. You still live in Warr Acres?:gossip: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/yesmaps.gif

Have not seen anything to suggest the convention center will go anywhere other than between the river and downtown, and closer to downtown.

Some of the other construction specifically planned for the fairground might impact the speedway somehow, but not the convention center.I saw that also. I wonder if he meant to say exhibit center rather than convention? I guess I need to ask him.

The average cost of the tax will be $1000 a person or $4000 per family.

Well worth it just for the park alone

Well worth it just for the park alone

And an even better bargain when one ignores the made up overstated figure.
Assuming the passage of MAPs, I'll be happy to continue to pay that extra penny whenever I'm within the collection area.

from: tom.anderson@okc.gov

Dear Mr. Glover,

I enjoyed our conversation this morning.

With regard to your question as to what percent of Oklahoma City sales tax is paid by Oklahoma City citizens, the Finance Department has just recently received information on this topic. Based on an economic analysis conducted by Oklahoma State University economist Dr. Mark Snead, the average Oklahoma City resident can expect to pay about $10 per month for the 15 months the Ford Center Improvements Sales Tax will be in effect. This is based on economic data that shows 30.5% of Oklahoma City's sales taxes are paid by people who live outside the City. For the $120,000,000 estimated to be collected through the one cent sales tax, this means approximately $36.6 million will come from people who are not citizens of Oklahoma City.

I hope this information is responsive to your questions. Please do not hesitate to contact me should you have additional questions or comments.

Regards,

Thomas A. Anderson
Executive Manager - Special Projects
Office of the City Manager

from: tom.anderson@okc.gov

Dear Mr. Glover,

I enjoyed our conversation this morning.

With regard to your question as to what percent of Oklahoma City sales tax is paid by Oklahoma City citizens, the Finance Department has just recently received information on this topic. Based on an economic analysis conducted by Oklahoma State University economist Dr. Mark Snead, the average Oklahoma City resident can expect to pay about $10 per month for the 15 months the Ford Center Improvements Sales Tax will be in effect. This is based on economic data that shows 30.5% of Oklahoma City's sales taxes are paid by people who live outside the City. For the $120,000,000 estimated to be collected through the one cent sales tax, this means approximately $36.6 million will come from people who are not citizens of Oklahoma City.

I hope this information is responsive to your questions. Please do not hesitate to contact me should you have additional questions or comments.

Regards,

Thomas A. Anderson
Executive Manager - Special Projects
Office of the City Manager

One thread would probably be quite enough, but, since you've posted it more than once, I'll ask my question again.

I agree that the math works out very nicely to $10 per person per month, recognizing that many people pay more and many pay less. However, I am curious as to why sales tax paid by businesses inside Oklahoma City was not factored into this equation. Is there a sales tax rebate for all city businesses which I am not aware of? I suspect Devon and Chesapeake buy enough equipment annually to almost dwarf what we mortals are capable of spending.

Hi, David. How've you been? Hope your mom is well. Thanks for the nice comment. Naturally, I'll be writing a piece about why I'm voting yes, to accompany the other kinds of articles, but not just yet. I hadn't noticed you posting about MAPS 3 before the above. You still live in Warr Acres?: I have been good. Mom is well. I was torn on Maps 3 - really wanted to be for it. I still live in the Village.

I was torn on Maps 3 - really wanted to be for it.

:lol2:

Sure you were really riding the fence on this one

I thought Republicans were for smaller government and lower taxes, I thought Democrats were against regressive taxation. So who is for the Maps 3 Tax - Independents that are PRO corporate socialism?

How about: Many Republicans, Democrats and Independents are united in their wishes for progress in Oklahoma City? Many of us, regardless of our political views towards taxation understand that MAPS gives us something visible for our money that we can see is good for the city. Many of us are civic minded individuals who understand that, as citizens, we shouldn't sit back and expect someone else to do everything for us. Many of us have seen how MAPS projects have transformed our city, and consider a penny tax a small price to pay for making our home a better place in which to live, a place we can be proud of. I'm living in a house divided, politically, and we're all voting yes for MAPS.

So who is for the Maps 3 Tax - Independents that are PRO corporate socialism?

All but the folks whose lives are driven by pessimism

I have a few questions. Were all of the previous maps projects completed? Were all the projects completed on time and how much did they go over budget, if they did go over budget?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

So who is for the Maps 3 Tax - Independents that are PRO corporate socialism?

Go us! (Because in terms of right wing radio talk show hosts, everyone is either a Republican or a Democrat, and nothing else.)

My son is a Libertarian, and he's voting for MAPS. Isn't that interesting? But, he's also a (very) young adult, and young adults are all about growing their downtown. In fact, I suspect that's the single most pro-MAPS group of all, based on conversations I've had. They want mass transit, they love the idea of an urban park and anything that stimulates downtown development, even though they can't remember the disaster that was Oklahoma City pre-MAPS.

Most young people support the dedouchebag-ification of downtown, and therefore do not support Bezdek or the creation of a new hub by those who facilitated the destruction of the functionality of Urban Station as a hub.
MAPS is a greed over taste profit over people Corporate-as-hell make your city stand out by being just like other cities big box stores everywhere pile of slop that only a young person who has not been out much would support.

I have a few questions. Were all of the previous maps projects completed? Were all the projects completed on time and how much did they go over budget, if they did go over budget?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Hope this helps...

All of the previous MAPS projects were built (but not necessarily as promised, most not on time and definitely not on budget). All of the previous MAPS projects were listed on the Ballot. None of the "proposed" MAPS 3 projects are mentioned (and they could have been).

Addressing the budget question, overall MAPS projects went 47.75% OVER what voters were told shortly before the election.

The 1st number under each project/date opened is the amount voters were told just prior to the election, except as noted, come from an Oklahoman article, Major-league status sought voters to decide on $237.6 million plan (11/14/93). The 2nd amount is the Final Cost from the City’s Website. Amounts in red are the $$$ amount it went over.

DISCLAIMER: If any of the calculations are in error, please advise.

The Ballpark (1998)
$21.8M
$34M
---------
$12.2M

The Canal (1999/2003-2004)
$9M
$23M
---------
$14M

Civic Center (2001)
$27M
$53M
---------
$26M

Cox Convention Improvements (2000)
$24.9M
$60M
---------
$35.1M

Fairgrounds Improvements (1997/1998)
Was to include a “...world class auction center to increase Oklahoma’ City’s ability to attract horse industry events. Other tax money would fund improvements to existing facilities.” Don't know if we got that or not.
$11.5M
$14M
---------
$2.5M

Ford Center (2002)
The Ford gets rather convoluted with the numbers. There were the Voters Told ($78.9), Budgeted amounts (after the vote, $74.8), bid amounts that went even lower ($64.8M), then estimates that were as high as $93M at one point). Didn't try to exaggerate and use the lowest number/highest numbers found, stuck with the voters told and the "final" numbers (does NOT include the recent $120M Ford improvements).
$78.9M
$87.7M
---------
$8.8M

Library (2004)
$15.9M
$21.5M
---------
$5.6M

Okla River (1999 - 2004)
$28.1M (This amount is the balance after the $9M for the canal is removed, in this article the Canal & River were lumped together for a total cost of $37.1M)
$53.5M (City's site still has this as an estimated amount)
---------
$25.4M

Trolleys (1999)
Originally pitched as a light rail system costing taxpayers a net $3M ($16M total cost with $13M to be in Federal funding) also, it was to be “a rail transport system, connecting west Oklahoma City [Meridian hotel cooridor] with downtown” (not just downtown area as in MAPS 3)
$3M
$5M
---------
$2M

Misc:
$17.5M (about the same amount as in MAPS 3, yet MAPS 3 is 3.25 times the amount of MAPS)

TOTAL
$237.6M
$351.7M
---------
$114.1M

Here is what voters are being told the MAPS 3 projects are going to cost (looking at the above, will be interesting to do the comparison of completed costs 10 years or so from now). Of course NONE of it is mentioned in the Ballot/Ordinance.


AT A GLANCE: MAPS 3 DETAILS
Sibebar article to Oklahoman article Oklahoma City MAPS out big plans (9/18/09)

Downtown park, $130 million
A 70-acre park, shown above in an artist’s rendering [omitted], is planned along downtown’s southern edge, between the Oklahoma River and a planned boulevard which will replace the existing Interstate 40 Crosstown Expressway when it is relocated. The park would include a cafe, a lake and other amenities. City leaders compare the idea to Discovery Park in Houston, Millennium Park in Chicago and Centennial Park in Atlanta.

Convention center, $280 million
A new convention center is planned on the south edge of downtown near the planned downtown park. The new convention center will replace the Cox Convention Center, shown above, which opened in 1971. The new center will include exhibit halls, meeting rooms, ballrooms and parking.

Transit, $130 million
The money would pay for five to six miles of downtown streetcar lines and a downtown transit hub which will link streetcar, commuter rail and bus systems. Some money could also be used for building commuter rail lines, but the city is also seeking federal transportation money for commuter rail.

Oklahoma River, $60 million
About $25 million would go toward a whitewater kayaking venue. The exact location of that venue has not been chosen. The rest of the money would go toward improvements on the east end of the river where the city hosts rowing competitions. Those improvements include grandstands, lighting, parking, a floating stage, river beautification and other work on the rowing course.

State Fair Park, $60 million
The money would be used to upgrade public buildings at State Fair Park. Fair officials are in the midst of a $75 million overhaul of State Fair Park’s horse barns and State Fair Arena. MAPS money would be used for the other buildings at the fairgrounds such as exhibit space and meeting halls used during the fair each year.

Health and wellness aquatic centers for senior citizens, $50 million
An undetermined number of the centers would be built across the city. City officials have not said exactly where the centers will be located.

Trails, $40 million
A master plan calling for additional bicycle and walking trails all across the city has been largely unfunded. This money would pay for 57 miles of new trails, virtually completing the city’s trails plan.

Sidewalks, $10 million
Following up on the 2007 bond issue, which included $68 million for sidewalks, MAPS 3 will include money for sidewalks along major streets and near public buildings such as schools and libraries.

Other, $17 million
Contingency funds.

TOTAL $777 million

Hope this helps...

All of the previous MAPS projects were built (but not necessarily as promised, most not on time and definitely not on budget). All of the previous MAPS projects were listed on the Ballot. None of the "proposed" MAPS 3 projects are mentioned (and they could have been).

Addressing the budget question, overall MAPS projects went 47.75% OVER what voters were told shortly before the election.

The 1st number under each project/date opened is the amount voters were told just prior to the election, except as noted, come from an Oklahoman article, Major-league status sought voters to decide on $237.6 million plan (11/14/93). The 2nd amount is the Final Cost from the City’s Website. Amounts in red are the $$$ amount it went over.

DISCLAIMER: If any of the calculations are in error, please advise.

The Ballpark (1998)
$21.8M
$34M
---------
$12.2M

The Canal (1999/2003-2004)
$9M
$23M
---------
$14M

Civic Center (2001)
$27M
$53M
---------
$26M

Cox Convention Improvements (2000)
$24.9M
$60M
---------
$35.1M

Fairgrounds Improvements (1997/1998)
Was to include a “...world class auction center to increase Oklahoma’ City’s ability to attract horse industry events. Other tax money would fund improvements to existing facilities.” Don't know if we got that or not.
$11.5M
$14M
---------
$2.5M

Ford Center (2002)
The Ford gets rather convoluted with the numbers. There were the Voters Told ($78.9), Budgeted amounts (after the vote, $74.8), bid amounts that went even lower ($64.8M), then estimates that were as high as $93M at one point). Didn't try to exaggerate and use the lowest number/highest numbers found, stuck with the voters told and the "final" numbers (does NOT include the recent $120M Ford improvements).
$78.9M
$87.7M
---------
$8.8M

Library (2004)
$15.9M
$21.5M
---------
$5.6M

Okla River (1999 - 2004)
$28.1M (This amount is the balance after the $9M for the canal is removed, in this article the Canal & River were lumped together for a total cost of $37.1M)
$53.5M (City's site still has this as an estimated amount)
---------
$25.4M

Trolleys (1999)
Originally pitched as a light rail system costing taxpayers a net $3M ($16M total cost with $13M to be in Federal funding) also, it was to be “a rail transport system, connecting west Oklahoma City [Meridian hotel cooridor] with downtown” (not just downtown area as in MAPS 3)
$3M
$5M
---------
$2M

Misc:
$17.5M (about the same amount as in MAPS 3, yet MAPS 3 is 3.25 times the amount of MAPS)

TOTAL
$237.6M
$351.7M
---------
$114.1M

Here is what voters are being told the MAPS 3 projects are going to cost (looking at the above, will be interesting to do the comparison of completed costs 10 years or so from now). Of course NONE of it is mentioned in the Ballot/Ordinance.



TOTAL $777 millionHow did the City come up with the 114.1 million? Where did it come from? Thats a lot of money.

How did the City come up with the 114.1 million? Where did it come from? Thats a lot of money.

That is a good question, I don't think they underestimated what revenue would be raised by the tax, so the answer lies elsewhere. There were several additional projects that were planned, once the 9 were completed (presuming they had money left). From the 1993 Ballot:

(C)(1) Additional improvements to the Oklahoma City Fairgrounds ...

(C)(2) All or part of a transportation system and/or related facilities to provide access between downtown oklahoma City and the vicinity of Remington Park, provided said system and/or facilities shall be funded only if a Federal grant covering not less than 50% of applicable costs is obtained.

(C)(3) Art, natural history, history, cultural, or educational museums and/or facilities;

These all got cut as far as I can tell. Then there was the 6 month tax "extension" that brought in $30M or so. The City's site states:


MAPS was funded by a temporary one-cent sales tax approved by city voters in December 1993, and later extended an additional six months. The tax expired on July 1, 1999. During the 66 months it was in effect, over $309 million was collected. In addition, the deposited tax revenue earned about $54 million in interest.

This interest amount is questionable because, then MAPS project manager, Jim Couch put the amount of interest earned (due to cost over-runs and the resulting construction delays on the Arena) something like 1/10th of that amount (nearly halfway through the 6 month "extension")


Journal Record, "MAPS may end up with cash surplus" (2/24/99)

"We feel good that the numbers that we presented today are very solid." More important, the MAPS program has earned around $4.7 million of interest income, which will be funneled back into the program. "Most of the additional interest income is due to the delay of the downtown arena," he explained. "We had anticipated spending that money earlier to begin construction of the arena and since we did not, the money was invested and has now come back with a pretty good return for us."

Seems highly unlikely considering all of the other over-runs that almost led to them canceling the Arena completely (which resulted in the 6 month "extension"). Notice the dates between Mr. Couches $4.7M figure and the end date of the tax. Just 3 months. How could the 6 month "extension" which was projected to bring in $30M ($15M by the date of his statement) lead to an additional $49M in interest? Understand that just because the tax ended that construction and spending was still ongoing, but PLEASE, someone help me with the math on that one!

If the interest amount is correct the City would be better served by delaying everything as long as possible, let all of that interest accumulate then build everything with the interest (leave the principle alone) and there would never be a need for any future MAPS sales taxes!

I saw that also. I wonder if he meant to say exhibit center rather than convention? I guess I need to ask him.

Yeah, sorry for the confusion. I meant to say the State Fairground Improvements or Exhibition Hall. One of my co-workers goes to the racetrack a lot (because her son races) and she was worried that it would be torn down. I figured there wouldn't be a better group of people to ask than here.

Thanks so much Larry. Now, I have one more question. Did they go over budget because costs went up for labor and construction or was it that they made changes to the original plans or both?

FYI - saw a blurb in another DOK article that mentioned the City of Nashville, a direct competitor to OKC and a city of relatively the same population, is voting in the next few weeks on a $585 million dollar convention center.

Thanks so much Larry. Now, I have one more question. Did they go over budget because costs went up for labor and construction or was it that they made changes to the original plans or both?
Here's an 11/15/1998 article which discussed the topic: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/MAPS%201993/maps1_1998_11_15.jpg ... I'd stick it here but it is much too large a file.

Here's an 11/15/1998 article which discussed the topic: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/MAPS%201993/maps1_1998_11_15.jpg ... I'd stick it here but it is much too large a file.

Thanks Doug for an excellent article, haven't had the time to read it all yet but certainly a sense of deja vu all over again ... haven't we heard very similar statements (that you posted elsewhere) from the City saying these are all just estimates, that the costs aren't going to be known until sometime after the vote (probably in the same time frame as in the article). The only difference I am seeing so far is the City relied on outside people to provide the estimates (are they doing the same thing this time around)? Please correct me if I am misreading anything or misrepresenting what you have said.

Thanks again!

Thanks so much Larry. Now, I have one more question. Did they go over budget because costs went up for labor and construction or was it that they made changes to the original plans or both?

The info may be in Doug's article but it was a combination of things. Labor/construction cost more for sure, but things were left out (like engineering studies, landscaping, etc) according to a Journal Record article at the time. As things progressed, wish list items for the projects kept getting added in then when costs exceeded estimates, wish list items were cut to try to bring things down again. So yes and no, things could have been much worse if they hadn't cut some of those wish list items, as it was they still came in at 47.75% over what voters were told.

The info may be in Doug's article but it was a combination of things. Labor/construction cost more for sure, but things were left out (like engineering studies, landscaping, etc) according to a Journal Record article at the time. As things progressed, wish list items for the projects kept getting added in then when costs exceeded estimates, wish list items were cut to try to bring things down again. So yes and no, things could have been much worse if they hadn't cut some of those wish list items, as it was they still came in at 47.75% over what voters were told.
Crystal ball gazing is always a hazardous thing, at best. The Oklahoman article I linked to above illustrated that estimates given the city were (a) stale at the time of the MAPS vote and (b) incomplete as to all cost items which should have been included in the estimates but weren't. On top of that, add changes in labor and material/construction costs ... it ain't easy being green.

This go around, no pretense has been made that cost statements are anything other than estimates, and $17M has been thrown in for "contingencies" which I suppose includes elbow room to deal with things like original MAPS didn't plan for. The approach taken in MAPS 3 might not give voters as much apparent feel-good security in relying on cost numbers but it may well be more realistic.