Friend, when do you think contract negotiations begin? When negotiations began for this year, OKC was "recession proof" thanks to Mick's genius and then the city decided to negotiate in bad faith. Mick's money wants MAPSIII to pass recession be doomed and so pulled by his marionet, he publicly pushes for it. Same day all city departments are asked to cut 2% from their budgets, likely another 3% for the upcoming fiscal year. Mick then dances in to say that he can save all the heartburn if public safety will just submit to his use tax proposal that will provide for a limited (2 year) time. Mick still claims that this is a Public Safety ploy for money. It isn't. Exactly who is using MIII as leverage to promote their own agenda?

Well, You're stating the obvious. Of course he is pushing MAPS3. It wouldn't have been brought forth unless he pushed it. I understand your point, especially if you are within the police or fire depts. I've lost my job due to the economic downturn. The point I am trying to make is that MAPS3 and the police/fire issues are separate issues and that voting down MAPS3 because of your dispute over police/fire budgets is shooting yourself in the foot. Your tactic should be to run someone for mayor in the next election who has police/fire at the forefront of his/her agenda.

I understand what you are saying but the reason departments have been asked to cut their budgets is because we are in the middle of the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression and there isn't a major city in the country that doesn't have some significant budget problems.

If these things have been brought to the attention of all the people I mentioned for "years on end" then the majority of the people in OKC apparently don't feel there is as much of a problem as you do. I was born and raised here, left and came back, but after coming back, I don't see any more problems now than when I left 20+ years ago.

MAPS3 will cost each of us, what, maybe $100 - $200 a year? For what we get, its a small investment. What did a policeman or a fireman cost in 1995 vs. what they cost today in total pay (cash + benefits + pension, etc). With new stations, equipment and efficiencies, we may not need the same number that we did before.

I'm open to the idea of more of each but using MAPS3 as leverage isn't the way to go. They are two separate issues.

The economic downturn is absolutely no excuse. These policies were implemented during the boon years of the 90's. They were allowed to be implementd because we had a weak kneed fire chief, who was more concerned about his future aspirations to be Ward 1 councilman, than he was about doing the right thing for his department. He chose to buckle under to the demands of the city manager instead of maintaining the staffing that he knew was necessary. He chose his political future over his duties to the citizens and his employees. If you watch him on the press conferences now, he's doing the same thing. You see he'd like to be mayor some day and you can't do that if you make the power people mad.
As far as new stations etc. they are of no use without the proper manpower to staff them. Rational thought should tell you that you can't add stations and equipment and cut the people that man them. You can't increase the minimum manning on every engine in town and cut staffing at the same time. These are just some of the policies, pushed down from the city, that have us where we are today.
As far as not seeing the problems, that's because the city employees as a whole don't like to air their laundry in public. We have been trying to get these problems addressed in a mutually respectful way for a long time. Unfortunateley that hasn't work out.

An article from the JR talking about the "blank check" debate:

http://journalrecord.com/article.cfm?recid=104617

There appears to be many things we need to do (unfinished business):

1. Satisfy: Police & Fire Safety.

2. County jail? (Maybe County will master this monster!)

The economic downturn is absolutely no excuse. These policies were implemented during the boon years of the 90's. They were allowed to be implementd because we had a weak kneed fire chief, who was more concerned about his future aspirations to be Ward 1 councilman, than he was about doing the right thing for his department. He chose to buckle under to the demands of the city manager instead of maintaining the staffing that he knew was necessary. He chose his political future over his duties to the citizens and his employees. If you watch him on the press conferences now, he's doing the same thing. You see he'd like to be mayor some day and you can't do that if you make the power people mad.
As far as new stations etc. they are of no use without the proper manpower to staff them. Rational thought should tell you that you can't add stations and equipment and cut the people that man them. You can't increase the minimum manning on every engine in town and cut staffing at the same time. These are just some of the policies, pushed down from the city, that have us where we are today.
As far as not seeing the problems, that's because the city employees as a whole don't like to air their laundry in public. We have been trying to get these problems addressed in a mutually respectful way for a long time. Unfortunateley that hasn't work out.

Perhaps so, and I will defer this to you since I have been gone quite a few years before returning. I stand by my other statements, however, that this is a different issue than MAPS3 and shouldn't have any bearing on people's votes. If they want to change the police/fire situation, take it up with the city or vote in people (or run your own candidates) whose main priority are these departments. It appears some people don't see these as being as big a problem as some of you do.

Will a quote from the City manager do? In the City's budget report for FY 2008 (can download from the OKC.gov):



Notice the date there, we are still operating with the same staffing level as at the beginning of the original MAPS.

Thanks Larry for your honest research, you maybe be a yes voter but I want to get your credit because at least you are willing to have a open mind.

But really, Larry OKC, what does this have to do with MAPS? Funding and staffing levels for fire and police are administrative matters to take up with the City Manager, the Mayor and The City Council. It doesn't have anything to do with these projects. You're logic is shooting yourself in the foot because if, as has happened with the previous MAPS projects, they result in increased tourism, convensions and tax revenue, there will be more funding for police and fire. Go against MAPS and you very possibly have the same or less revenue and less liklihood for additional funding.

Simple, the city will listen if you can affect them politically.

Simple, the city will listen if you can affect them politically.

This isn't a political issue. Its an issue of the improvement of our city for the future. Voting down MAPS3 won't have one iota of an effect on the leader's political futures but it WILL have an effect on the future of the city. As I have said, you're shooting yourself in the foot. Its the wrong forum to vent your frusterations regarding police/fire.

Ha ha! Unless Larry OKC has had an epiphany, he's a "No" voter! But I do do agree that he looks into things very nicely.

I'm now into completing the "Analysis & Commentary" section of Doug Dawgz Blog: The Great MAPS 3 Debate (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/11/great-maps-3-debate.html)

My first item of comment pertains equally to both sides:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/class.jpg

For your video pleasure, here is the concluding video where, by analogy, the citizens of the city go ape **** crazy and revolt over the lack of class, humility, and respect, and the corresponding presence of arrogance, cheap shots and child-like behavior which appear to be marks of what we are seeing right now ... for you young pups, this is from the 1976 movie, Network ...

q_qgVn-Op7Q&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0

LOL...that shot of the street sign that says good luck...I love it!

-Chris-

Ha ha! Unless Larry OKC has had an epiphany, he's a "No" voter! But I do do agree that he looks into things very nicely.

Thanks Doug...I WANT to be a Yes voter because I am in favor of most if not all of the "proposed" projects...but with the Ballot/Ordinance language that I just can't get past...

I could be dragged kicking and screaming given all of my other concerns (are we doing some of the projects the right way, is enough being alloted for cost over runs, etc?)

Will state again, my concerns about the $100M/year (even though it has never brought in that much to date) have been answered. Their numbers seem solid on that point. (Full explanation is found in the "Retraction" thread). There is still a possibility they can turn the ballot/ordinance language around. But time is running out on that one.

LOL...that shot of the street sign that says good luck...I love it!

-Chris-

Agree, that one is my favorite!

lol

Thanks Doug...I WANT to be a Yes voter because I am in favor of most if not all of the "proposed" projects...but with the Ballot/Ordinance language that I just can't get past...

I could be dragged kicking and screaming given all of my other concerns (are we doing some of the projects the right way, is enough being alloted for cost over runs, etc?)

Will state again, my concerns about the $100M/year (even though it has never brought in that much to date) have been answered. Their numbers seem solid on that point. (Full explanation is found in the "Retraction" thread). There is still a possibility they can turn the ballot/ordinance language around. But time is running out on that one. Larry, I understand your concern about the language of the ballot, however, with all the speculation and mistrust that is happening with MAPS 3, I believe that the city leaders will deliver on their promises. This should not be some conspiracy tale. The city has delivered on past MAPS projects so why should they not deliver now? If this were the case, then city leaders would have a lot of damage control to contain and voters very likely would not support or vote on future projects. Sometimes you have to givethe city leaders the benefit of the doubt and have a little faith. I see no reason why these projects will not get built. There may be cost overruns, even to the point where extra funds will be needed for upkeep and maintenance. Most of all, OKC must continue the momentum and renaissance. The future of OKC depends on it.

I understand what you are saying but the reason departments have been asked to cut their budgets is because we are in the middle of the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression and there isn't a major city in the country that doesn't have some significant budget problems.
Exactly!!!!! So, Here is an idea with a totally UNCERTAIN economic future let's and while we are in a "economic downturn" build a MULTI MILLION dollar PARK.:doh: Yea that's it!!!! Great Idea!!!!

The point I am trying to make is that MAPS3 and the police/fire issues are separate issues
They are related. Both issues concern this city and it's citizens. WE ARE BROKE!!! THIS CITY IS BROKE! Why don't you understand that we shouldn't be building parks, or bike trails..we should be trying to hold on to what we've got for a year or two. When the economy turns around then we'll move forward.
Unemployment just jumped over 7%!
Sales Tax down over 12%!
What part of any of that don't you understand? That's right HERE in Oklahoma. Geez. So let's build "white water rapids" and bike trails. LOL

Anyone trust the city!???? They haven't finished alot of what they started......A teacher told me today that MAPS2 was never fully finished. The FORD center wasn't finished. USE tax from this MAPS3 will be used on the ford center to help finish that. They haven't built two fire stations they agreed to build and got the money for in 2000!!!! that's right 2000....you trust the MAYOR...Manager and city????

You ever heard of an economic stimulus plan? MAPS is that.

And by the time we even get started on most of these projects the economy will be headed back up. You remember what OKC's economy was like in 1992 when we passed the original MAPS? My son is depending us to think ahead, think about the future, and pass MAPS 3.

Tomorrow at 3pm, 1600 Culbertson- Kelly and Cornett will be trying to convince the East Siders that they aren't being asked to get on the back of the MAPS bus (sorry for the un PC analogy, I know there is no real transit in the plans).

McFerron is reporting via his Moore call center that MAPS is T A N K I N G

Better have some good stuff for these folks.

we are not in 1992? are we? Is this city in the same shape today as 1992? or are we better since MAPS1 or 2

Tomorrow at 3pm, 1600 Culbertson- Kelly and Cornett will be trying to convince the East Siders that they aren't being asked to get on the back of the MAPS bus (sorry for the un PC analogy, I know there is no real transit in the plans).
better have some extra security at that one...Skip is a gone election time. I think i'll attend that one. I might get a good laugh..

I think I will run. When they ask "can a white guy win in ward 7?" I can reply "uhhh...Skip won."

I think I will run. When they ask "can a white guy win in ward 7?" I can reply "uhhh...Skip won."
LOL!!!! Boy were they fooled huh? That won't happen again I put $$$ on it!!!

Is the $600K (to round off) of tax receipts directly from rentals of the Cox Facilities or does that include the directly-related receipts from Hotel/Motel taxes, rental car taxes, sales taxes from shopping and restaurants, etc?

Only had the partial quote when I made the initial post. Here is the complete paragraph (Chamber's Convention Study, page 16).


In recent years, the Cox Center has been responsible for generating an estimated average of $592,000 annually in city sales tax receipts; and hotel occupancy taxes totaling $212,000 used for State Fairgrounds improvements, $141,000 used for the Oklahoma City Convention and Visitors Bureau and $35,000 for sponsoring special events. It is estimated that the operations of a new convention center could increase annual tax collections in these specific areas to approximately $1.6 million in city sales tax receipts, $580,000 in revenue for State Fairgrounds improvements, $386,000 in funding for the OCCVB and $97,000 to help sponsor special events.

Some of the other's you mentioned (shopping and restaurants, etc) would be covered in the economic impact multiplier which brings the point where the cost and the revenue eventually meet down considerably.

The full report was available at the Chamber's website but I can't locate it now. If anyone wants it, send me a private message with an email address and I can send it to you (21 pg, pdf format) or if someone can tell me how to post it here, I will attempt to do so.

we are not in 1992? are we? Is this city in the same shape today as 1992? or are we better since MAPS1 or 2

I would have to say better because of Maps 1 & 2. Maps 3 would only push it to that next level. Economy will only benefit fromthe passage of Maps 3. As for economic stimulus look at how many jobs will required for the construction of all the projects. How does this hurt?

Ponca City has Community wi-fi. Oklahoma City doesn't even have a public access station because Cornett let it go away at the requests of the COX lobbyists. These are the things we could get for a fraction of the cost of these projects, and would benefit us much more...that is what really hurts.

I would have to say better because of Maps 1 & 2. Maps 3 would only push it to that next level.
Interesting. The call volume for this city has tripled over that time frame. The Population has increased over 20% that doesn't include a lot of the Illegal Aliens. There are fewer officers answering calls for service when you dial 911 than there were in 1989. At some times during the week, a SINGLE officer will be responsible for patrolling over 100 square miles. Two fire stations have been closed. Over 50 fire positions have been cut from an already inadequately staffed Fire Department. That's what you've gotten for your TAX Money. Congradulations!

As for economic stimulus look at how many jobs will required for the construction of all the projects. How does this hurt?
Mmm. You don't know much about Construction. I'd like for you to walk to the job site and tell me how many Oklahomans are working for FLINTCO? Please tell me when the job fair is gonna be and where. I know plenty of Oklahomans that are looking for a job. I didn't know they were only gonna hire Oklahomans. I mean you know unemployment is up as of last week to OVER 7% right HERE. Better yet. How many U.S. Citizens are working?

I believe that the city leaders will deliver on their promises. ... If this were the case, then city leaders would have a lot of damage control to contain and voters very likely would not support or vote on future projects. Sometimes you have to give the city leaders the benefit of the doubt and have a little faith. I see no reason why these projects will not get built.

Why? Based on what? OKC history is replete with the stupidity you described. Mostly pre-MAPS, but some cases even post-MAPS. That also presumes this same Council will be around during the nearly 8 years the tax will be collected. It only takes a majority vote on the Council to change the "intent" (besides, the Intent Resolution is non-binding). We have had 3 different Mayors since MAPS (they have all been on the same page for the most part, but no guarantee the next Mayor will be). How many different Council people have there been since MAPS 1? There is only 1 council person that is totally against this MAPS but 2 others have said that there are things in it they don't like. Only takes those 3 and 2 more to shift things around.


The city has delivered on past MAPS projects so why should they not deliver now?

The 1st MAPS had accountability built into it. The projects were not only listed but some with an amazing amount of detail for a Ballot (details are usually in the Ordinance). This isn't the case with this MAPS. NONE of the "proposed" projects are listed or mentioned. The infamous Intent Resolution is not mentioned or referenced. They could have done so but deliberately chose not to. The question is Why? Why set this up in such a way that all sort of redirecting of funds can happen unless they were planning on doing that? Say whatever you think will get you the most votes, then if it is convenient, maybe keep some of the promises. If not, no problem, all they have to do is change the "intent" (they have done it before, was found to be legal). Classic bait-n-switch?


There may be cost overruns, even to the point where extra funds will be needed for upkeep and maintenance.

The City can practically guarantee there will be cost over runs. Question is how much? In the 2007 bond issue in a FAQ section, the City admitted over runs on City projects average 8%. MAPS 1 was 47.75% higher than what voters were told. Yet they are only allowing 2.2% with MAPS 3?

Upkeep and maintenance are usually funded outside of the direct sales tax. With MAPS 1, it was the accompanying Use Tax that was earmarked for that purpose (this was the intent that was changed and the money diverted for Bass Pro). Another revenue stream is naming rights (the Arena naming rights money was earmarked for that).


Most of all, OKC must continue the momentum and renaissance. The future of OKC depends on it.

Don't disagree but with or without MAPS 3, the forward momentum WILL continue. It has been ongoing for the past 16 years (1993) when the original MAPS passed. This argument would have a lot more weight to it if it wasn't for one particular project...the Devon Tower (and resulting Project 180). One successful project leads to another and another and another....

At some times during the week, a SINGLE officer will be responsible for patrolling over 100 square miles.

I refuse to believe this.

I refuse to believe this.

Why?

I refuse to believe this.

We have well over 100 sq. mi. of empty land in OKC. This is no biggie.

And what balance of the remaining 500sq. is populated. Still lots of people to protect with very little manpower I should say.

We have well over 100 sq. mi. of empty land in OKC. This is no biggie.


And what balance of the remaining 500sq. is populated. Still lots of people to protect with very little manpower I should say.

We have well over 100 sq. mi. of empty land in OKC. This is no biggie.

We do? 100 sq miles of EMPTY land? Where? And it's no biggie? Mmm Well if your door is getting kicked in and your at one end and an officer is at the other i beg to differ. But where is the 100 square miles of totally empty land? You've told everyone how SMART you are so enlighten me. LOl

100sq miles? Who posted that, Joan PeterS???

This isn't a political issue. Its an issue of the improvement of our city for the future. Voting down MAPS3 won't have one iota of an effect on the leader's political futures but it WILL have an effect on the future of the city. As I have said, you're shooting yourself in the foot. Its the wrong forum to vent your frusterations regarding police/fire.

Wrong on the political affect, this will be very important in upcoming elections, especially the Mayor's race. Unfortunately some of the other's that might run against Cornett are sitting pretty close to him on the horseshoe.

Wrong on the political affect, this will be very important in upcoming elections, especially the Mayor's race. Unfortunately some of the other's that might run against Cornett are sitting pretty close to him on the horseshoe.
So, who are you going to run for mayor? Brian Walters? :omg: :woowoo:

So, who are you going to run for mayor? Brian Walters? :omg: :woowoo:

No, I thought I might vote for Humpreys if he could come out of retirement because of his squeaky clean past. Oh I sorry, I forgot he is the co-treasurer of Maps 3, the last person I would trust with any money.

So, who are you going to run for mayor? Brian Walters?
I don't think that was the suggestion, but is it your opinion that Mr Walters couldn't do as good or a better job as Mayor?

I don't think that was the suggestion, but is it your opinion that Mr Walters couldn't do as good or a better job as Mayor?
Absolutely. But, not a problem. He would have absolutely no chance of being elected, possibly not even to a second term in his own ward.

you brought up a very god point with 100sq miles orwhatever that 1 police oficer has to cover. they may not ne densly populated bu do you remember what happened in march of this year? remember those wildfires that destroyed numerous homes in 3 cities. did they ever say how many homes where lost in okc areas? i cant remember that fact but did you see the amount of fire equipment and personal that was out there protecting the less populated part of the city just because there was a need and citizen who needed help. lots of them. not only was that going on but inside the city they had many house fres along with the regular medical calls. I promise that even the police will respond out there in numbers when something happenes. so less force on both fire and police hurt the general good of the poeple.

both departments are there for your own good and to protect you and serve you. why cant you think that maybe we should help those guys whim day in day out help us with any question of problem we have. Both department members realize that maps 3 projects would be great and would vote for it if things were different like what man people have ben saying.

Citizens neither department really asks for much from their ctizens. sure you might see a fireman holding a boot collecting money but 100% of that man goes to jerry's kids. it does not go into the department.

Police and fire are asking for you guys to think of them and stand with them as they serve you, stand with them to show the city that the citizens care about our police and fire and that the city needs to look at what the city NEEDS rather than wants. I am personally getting kind of bored with this forum because it is the same arguments over and over. I just ask that you stand with us on this issue and help the people who are there to help you 24/7 rain or shine.

like other workers in the nation most of the firemen who are at risk for getting thier jobs cut have families to support. sure people lose their jobs but why should they lose it so that a park and other wants of certain high paying people want to have but dont need it. i am not asing sympathy just saying, anyone who loses thier jb i feel sorry for, so why are you risking families to be hurting because we want to build a park.
like others said the use tax runs out june 31 2011 with those 10 "promised" and not even mentioning the amount of people that are possibly going to retire in jan.

Once again look out for those people that look out for you and vote no this time.

you brought up a very god point with 100sq miles orwhatever that 1 police oficer has to cover.

Since you put this comment on two separate threads, I'm going to respond twice, especially since this comment was printed in the Gazette, which tends to give it legitimacy.

I noticed the letter stating that fact in the Oklahoma Gazette. It wasn't clear precisely what was being referred to, as the numbers don't add up. Oklahoma City is 622 square miles in size, and we have 1,029 police officers. That comes out to a figure of 1 police offer per .55 square mile. Now, obviously people have to have time off. Not counting vacations, there are about 4 40 hour shifts a week, which brings the math up to 1 police officer per 2.3 square miles or so. I'm not going to do the math to factor in vacations, but it probably puts you up, at most, to 1 officer per 4 square miles. Even if you had half of your officers in administrative positions, we're talking one officer per 8 square miles.

For one officer to have to cover 100 square miles, we'd have to have a force of about 35 officers or so, or 70 if half were administrative.

Since you put this comment on two separate threads, I'm going to respond twice, especially since this comment was printed in the Gazette, which tends to give it legitimacy.

I noticed the letter stating that fact in the Oklahoma Gazette. It wasn't clear precisely what was being referred to, as the numbers don't add up. Oklahoma City is 622 square miles in size, and we have 1,029 police officers. That comes out to a figure of 1 police offer per .55 square mile. Now, obviously people have to have time off. Not counting vacations, there are about 4 40 hour shifts a week, which brings the math up to 1 police officer per 2.3 square miles or so. I'm not going to do the math to factor in vacations, but it probably puts you up, at most, to 1 officer per 4 square miles. Even if you had half of your officers in administrative positions, we're talking one officer per 8 square miles.

For one officer to have to cover 100 square miles, we'd have to have a force of about 35 officers or so, or 70 if half were administrative.


BETTS

Are you also factoring in things like the gang unit, needed specifically in certain areas of town? How about SWAT? Detectives? How about long term injuries, cops and firemen get hurt saving stuff, or get ill with things that everyone is susceptible to. Factor some more, you'll probably get close.

Your available police personnel drops from 1,029 to 35 by factoring in other duties? I don't know how many gang officers there are, but whatever part of the city they are patrolling needs to be cut out of the available land calculations, if they are out on the street. If they're not, what are they doing? And are SWAT officers sitting around all the time waiting for a SWAT incident? What are the statistics on that? Over 50% of the officers are detectives and administrators? If that's the case, maybe your department is top heavy. In my department, we do both administration and work in our profession. As far as long-term injuries are concerned, what percentage are out on administrative leave? I cannot imagine it's that high, as much of your personnel is young, and there aren't that many people getting shot on the job, or we'd be hearing about it all the time. There has to be data showing how many police offers are patrolling, and I suspect it's more than 35, but if I'm wrong, I'd love to see the data.

The issue is that at certain times PD numbers drop to a point where one officer may patrol over 100 sq. I can't speak to the platoon sizes at PD, but 1029 officers is the total and as you stated that puts uniformed personnel at around 400. Those of course are spread about in shifts.

Emergencies are indiscriminant in their occurrence, right? Emergencies could care less when staffing is available. Would you drive your car down the road without a seatbelt because it wasn't rush hour and the possiblity of an accident was minimal? I hope not Betts. Why then do you want to cut the city's safety belt at anytime, high call volume or low?

As to doing administrative work and "your jobs," its an unfair comparison. Your job is probably not quite as labor intensive as that of a cop/detective. Easy Betts, I said probably not.

Since you put this comment on two separate threads, I'm going to respond twice, especially since this comment was printed in the Gazette, which tends to give it legitimacy.

I noticed the letter stating that fact in the Oklahoma Gazette. It wasn't clear precisely what was being referred to, as the numbers don't add up. Oklahoma City is 622 square miles in size, and we have 1,029 police officers. That comes out to a figure of 1 police offer per .55 square mile. Now, obviously people have to have time off. Not counting vacations, there are about 4 40 hour shifts a week, which brings the math up to 1 police officer per 2.3 square miles or so. I'm not going to do the math to factor in vacations, but it probably puts you up, at most, to 1 officer per 4 square miles. Even if you had half of your officers in administrative positions, we're talking one officer per 8 square miles.

For one officer to have to cover 100 square miles, we'd have to have a force of about 35 officers or so, or 70 if half were administrative.

Betts...boy are you misinformed on how staffing works. There are only a handful of officers answering calls for service. There are fewer Officers answering calls for service NOW then in 1989! That means when you call 911 the call is only able to be answered by Patrol Officers. Due to the many responsibilities a Police Department has their are only a few PATROL Officers. I will restate that I know for a fact some shifts their were only 9 Police Officers to start a shift for the entire South Side of Oklahoma City. That's over 300 square miles. If a shooting comes out at a club that usually takes 4-7 Police officers for witnesses, crowd control, scene protection traffic control etc...
Then another division has to start taking calls to pick up the slack. Then you've spread another division thin. It's not that hard to understand and unfortunately it happens almost weekly if not daily..I wish that wasn't the situation, but it is. I encourage you to visit a local briefing station and ask some questions about Manpower.

If they're not, what are they doing? And are SWAT officers sitting around all the time waiting for a SWAT incident? What are the statistics on that? Over 50% of the officers are detectives and administrators? If that's the case, maybe your department is top heavy.
Because of MANPOWER. SWAT officers have never been full time like most large cities. SWAT officers are working every night taking calls. If you are on this specialized unit you can't even move from PATROL or you give up your position. I'm not sure if we are top heavy. Those assignments Officers per Supervisor are in accordance with what every other Police Department is doing. ONE Detective is currently being assigned 8-20 cases per DAY. ONE DETECTIVE. Those cases come in everyday. Do the Math... They are currently about 2-3 Months behind. That means make a report today and the Detective won't be able even to review it until 2010! Any subjects arrested take priority. If working that case takes two days (which is quick), then that's what they have to do. All other cases that are just reports get pushed further behind.

You can easily see why our Property Crimes Theft etc...beat most cities our size. They go unsolved and there is no police patrol to curb any of it. They do their deeds as police officers drive by from one call to another...."Big League City"....DON't THINK SO!!

All very interesting posts indeed.

And none of them have anything to do with MAPS 3.

I just found out from a friend that the 4' x 6' Not This Maps sign that I put up on the fence of a elderly handicapped woman on SW 104th has been sprayed painted with a yes. This just reinforceds why I have never cared for politicians, because they bring the worst out in everyone. It would be nice if political votes could be decided with a couple hour long televised debates to state and defend your reasons, instead all the ugly dirty truths and untruths. I am sorry if I have offended anyone at anytime and from now, I am just going to inform voters on what I know are facts and let them decide for themselves. I had a neighbor that I have been friends with for many years throw a couple F bombs at me just for asking him what he thought about Maps 3. My current thoughts are that whatever the decision is, is meant to be. I am ready for this to be done with so that everyone can move on. Also remember, for or against - please pickup all the signs once the election is over with.

Since you put this comment on two separate threads, I'm going to respond twice, especially since this comment was printed in the Gazette, which tends to give it legitimacy.

I noticed the letter stating that fact in the Oklahoma Gazette. It wasn't clear precisely what was being referred to, as the numbers don't add up. Oklahoma City is 622 square miles in size, and we have 1,029 police officers. That comes out to a figure of 1 police offer per .55 square mile. Now, obviously people have to have time off. Not counting vacations, there are about 4 40 hour shifts a week, which brings the math up to 1 police officer per 2.3 square miles or so. I'm not going to do the math to factor in vacations, but it probably puts you up, at most, to 1 officer per 4 square miles. Even if you had half of your officers in administrative positions, we're talking one officer per 8 square miles.

For one officer to have to cover 100 square miles, we'd have to have a force of about 35 officers or so, or 70 if half were administrative.

You lost me on this one...Sorry if I missed it but how many patrol officers per shift for those 622 square miles?

All very interesting posts indeed.

And none of them have anything to do with MAPS 3.
I can only spoon feed you so much flinty...Added venues will NO DOUBT bring more crime and reports. Does any empty bar on it's own require police service? not usually unless it's vandalized or burglarized. Add 100-300 drunk people to it nightly and of course it does. inside the bar outside the bar ..DUI's ..car burglary's ..assaults, rapes..etc...

The idea that more building and venues ...park, convention center doesn't require additional police support is :bright_id....Wake up.. Need I read it to you very slowly?

However, those 100 to 300 people are somewhere in Oklahoma City at any given point in time, and have to be supervised, if they are the type that typically require supervision. Unless creating a new bar or park causes people to spontaneously generate out of thin air, the number of officers per capita is the same. The kind of people who go to a bar are going to go whether it's a new one or an old one, and so I fail to see how MAPS is going to require an increase in police protection required, at least until all projects are up and running, and even then, only if population density increases.

Yes, we would like to think that MAPS will help increase the population of Oklahoma City, but it won't happen overnight. So, on December 9th, the need for officers will be remarkably similar to what it is on December 8th, whether MAPS passes or not. It may not be the number of officers you'd like to have, but the failure of MAPs isn't going to spontaneously generate police officers either.

I can only spoon feed you so much flinty...Added venues will NO DOUBT bring more crime and reports. Does any empty bar on it's own require police service? not usually unless it's vandalized or burglarized. Add 100-300 drunk people to it nightly and of course it does. inside the bar outside the bar ..DUI's ..car burglary's ..assaults, rapes..etc...

The idea that more building and venues ...park, convention center doesn't require additional police support is :bright_id....Wake up.. Need I read it to you very slowly?

I'd love to see stats on how many crimes are related to bar activity per night. Especially the assault and rape numbers.

I can only spoon feed you so much flinty...Added venues will NO DOUBT bring more crime and reports. Does any empty bar on it's own require police service? not usually unless it's vandalized or burglarized. Add 100-300 drunk people to it nightly and of course it does. inside the bar outside the bar ..DUI's ..car burglary's ..assaults, rapes..etc...

The idea that more building and venues ...park, convention center doesn't require additional police support is :bright_id....Wake up.. Need I read it to you very slowly?Thanks for being patient with me. I am certain if I were blessed with your greater intellect, heroic abilities, and superior integrity that I would be able to apprehend your argument.

As to doing administrative work and "your jobs," its an unfair comparison. Your job is probably not quite as labor intensive as that of a cop/detective. Easy Betts, I said probably not.

I'll go easy on you. I don't know if my job is a labor intensive as a cop, although I can guarantee you I'm on my feet more, unless you have some that still walk a beat. Right now, I'm in the midst of a 15 day, 24 hours a day shift. I have absolutely no time during those 15 days when I'm not at least sitting here holding a phone and waiting for it to ring. I've got a bit of time that I have to spend on the computer, and I'll confess I multitask a bit and post here. But my phone can and does ring virtually every night of those 15 days, sometimes on the hour or half hour. Then, during the day, I go in to work and walk or stand at least half of the 10 to 12 hours I spend there for the entire 15 days. After that, I go to the easier part of my job for 2 to 4 weeks when I'm only infrequently on call and only have to work 8 to 9 hours a day, no weekends, and then it's back to the 15 day stint again. No overtime for me, either.

That's why I have some trouble feeling sorry for people who want to hire more people so they can work less, and who get paid overtime. I do have a lot of empathy for people who get their vacation cancelled with little to no notice, and if I were the fire chief, I can guarantee you it wouldn't happen. I'd go work their shifts for them, and call all the news media to come take a look.

Thanks for being patient with me. I am certain if I were blessed with your greater intellect, heroic abilities, and superior integrity that I would be able to apprehend your argument.
Come on just "joshin on you a little"...:poke:

So after Humphries campaign, run by Pat McFerron and CMA Strategies was completely destroyed...if MAPS 3 tanks, as he says it is, does he ever work in this town again? And if so, why?

I'll go easy on you. I don't know if my job is a labor intensive as a cop, although I can guarantee you I'm on my feet more, unless you have some that still walk a beat. Right now, I'm in the midst of a 15 day, 24 hours a day shift. I have absolutely no time during those 15 days when I'm not at least sitting here holding a phone and waiting for it to ring. I've got a bit of time that I have to spend on the computer, and I'll confess I multitask a bit and post here. But my phone can and does ring virtually every night of those 15 days, sometimes on the hour or half hour. Then, during the day, I go in to work and walk or stand at least half of the 10 to 12 hours I spend there for the entire 15 days. After that, I go to the easier part of my job for 2 to 4 weeks when I'm only infrequently on call and only have to work 8 to 9 hours a day, no weekends, and then it's back to the 15 day stint again. No overtime for me, either.

That's why I have some trouble feeling sorry for people who want to hire more people so they can work less, and who get paid overtime. I do have a lot of empathy for people who get their vacation cancelled with little to no notice, and if I were the fire chief, I can guarantee you it wouldn't happen. I'd go work their shifts for them, and call all the news media to come take a look.


Betts

This work of which you speak sounds truly hideous. Long hours are terrible, and those of us who work them can testify. I will not contest the difficulties of your job, but of all people you should understand the implications of safely performing a job that necessitates safety at all times, with less manpower than needed. Again, this is a little about days off, a lot about safety. At any rate, I hope that you sleep deeply, and fast, when you do.

So after Humphries campaign, run by Pat McFerron and CMA Strategies was completely destroyed...if MAPS 3 tanks, as he says it is, does he ever work in this town again? And if so, why?

Maybe I am sleep deprived or something but someone has lost me again...what the heck are you talking about? Humphreys? Understand he is co-treasurer of the MAPS 3 campaign and former Mayor but what is this post about? Thanks for any additional info in advance!

I have said multiple times that it shouldn't be us versus us. I'd far rather see both sides work together FOR MAPS, and then see popular support for our policemen and firemen take hold. But I'd also like to see people understand that careers in which we serve sometimes require more of us than other jobs, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't have a lot of time to do volunteer work so my job serves that purpose. Sometimes the satisfaction of a job well done and people helped is a greater thing than money or time

golfer i saw that too and it is ashame that people are so scared that they will lose that they trash their opposistions prperty to make theirs better. all that did was make them look worse and like scum.

The ctizens wont be mad at fire nd police when maps fails. just you guys on here will. There are great nmbers that are no on maps. maps 1 won some 30000 to some 20000 votes and same with mas 2 so it has never been a land slide. sorry folks but your wish of the community hating fire i really dont hink will happen. with a 90% approval ratng it would be hard to get people to really change their minds over how they feel as a service that they use.

...There are great nmbers that are no on maps. maps 1 won some 30000 to some 20000 votes and same with mas 2 so it has never been a land slide....

Agree to a certain extent. MAPS barely passed with 54% (hardly the "mandate" the Mayor stated in a otherwise solid video that Betts posted). MAPS for Kids did better, with 61% passage of the voters.

I've finally finished the post which began this thread about the "Great Maps 3 Debate." The analysis part took some time to do. The full post is here: Doug Dawgz Blog: The Great MAPS 3 Debate (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/11/great-maps-3-debate.html)

The part that's been added over the past 2-3 days is the analysis part, as well as a Document Appendix. The analysis part is shown graphically below. The Document Appendix is not shown, other than its introduction. I've done my best to be even-handed in the analysis, and, as you can see, my opinion is that both press conferences fared poorly in the credibility factor ... and the city used the "Fear Card" on occasion (actually, all such cards were thrown by the mayor) and the unions used "Cheap Shot" cards (all such cards were tossed out there by Gil Hensley). Altogether, the press conferences present a pretty ugly showing form both sides. The city deserves better than that from MAPS 3 proponents and opponents. At least, that's how I see it. Anyway, here is my analysis:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/parsing01.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/parsing02.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/parsing03.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/parsing04.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/parsing05.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/parsing06.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/parsing07.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/parsing08.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/parsing09.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/parsing10.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/parsing11.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/parsing12.jpg

As I said, the Document Appendix is not shown here. It presently contains several documents which are related to the city's offer, particularly from the firefighter perspective.

While I don't see that MAPS 3 and the union staffing issues directly relate to each other, since that bone has been tossed into the pile, I thought it best that a more developed source of information exist than the plainly political comments we heard in the respective press conferences.