As I just posted on another thread, .75% of Oklahoma City's 3.875% municipal sales tax already goes to fire and police protection. I'll once again post the breakdown of OKC's sales tax structure...

4.5% goes to the state.
3.875% goes to the city. Of that 3.875%...

1% goes to fund MAPS (temporary... in this case Ford Center upgrade)
2% goes to the general budget (Permanent)
.75% goes to police and fire (Permanent)
.125% goes to the Oklahoma City Zoo (Permanent)

And once again, the sales tax rate isn't even going to change, so it is in no way going to impact people's pocket books as we've been paying the rate for ten years.

So, since police and fire already has a permanent funding source from sales tax, and are attacking the temporary funding source for MAPS 3, a program whose projects ARE VITAL to continue elevating Oklahoma City's quality of life, I have only one question left for the opposition...

Do you care to change your bull**** story?

In fairness to the other side, Pulse, the 3/4 cent earmarked sales tax has been around since 1989 but the amount is obviously not enough enough to provide for permanent staffing of additional fire fighters and police. I've suggested in another thread (http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/19717-police-firemen-have-another-route.html) that, if the public favors the union staffing need position that an additional dedicated tax of another 1/4 cent or so shouldn't have that much trouble passing.

As I understand it there is also the question about whether or not the money collected is being used for other purposes.

As I just posted on another thread, .75% of Oklahoma City's 3.875% municipal sales tax already goes to fire and police protection. I'll once again post the breakdown of OKC's sales tax structure...

4.5% goes to the state.
3.875% goes to the city. Of that 3.875%...

1% goes to fund MAPS (temporary... in this case Ford Center upgrade)
2% goes to the general budget (Permanent)
.75% goes to police and fire (Permanent)
.125% goes to the Oklahoma City Zoo (Permanent)

And once again, the sales tax rate isn't even going to change, so it is in no way going to impact people's pocket books as we've been paying the rate for ten years.

So, since police and fire already has a permanent funding source from sales tax, and are attacking the temporary funding source for MAPS 3, a program whose projects ARE VITAL to continue elevating Oklahoma City's quality of life, I have only one question left for the opposition...

Do you care to change your bull**** story?Since the tax rate is the focus of this thread, for clarification purposes I have a question. When you say attack, in what context are you using it for? Attacking in general? Attacking the current rate? Attacking by using a portion of the use tax? I just curious. FYI in the next week I will be compiling some facts and figures regarding the 3/4 PS Sales Tax

In fairness to the other side, Pulse, the 3/4 cent earmarked sales tax has been around since 1989 but the amount is obviously not enough enough to provide for permanent staffing of additional fire fighters and police. I've suggested in another thread (http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/19717-police-firemen-have-another-route.html) that, if the public favors the union staffing need position that an additional dedicated tax of another 1/4 cent or so shouldn't have that much trouble passing.

I agree, however, that 3/4 of a cent is in addition to a good portion of the 2% tax that goes to the city's general fund.

In all honesty, this whole thing sounds like a completely seperate issue from MAPS that public safety needs to work out with the city. It didn't become public until MAPS3 went public.

The whole "I won't do this for you unless you do this for me" is just juvenile.

I also posted this in another forum:

I understand the total OKC Public Safety Budget is $290 million. If 1% sales tax equates to $100 million, where is the rest of Public Safety being funded from in addition to the dedicated public safety 0.75%/$75 million sales tax?
I'd like to know all the sources for total annual Public Safety spending.

I
n fairness to the other side, Pulse, the 3/4 cent earmarked sales tax has been around since 1989 but the amount is obviously not enough enough to provide for permanent staffing of additional fire fighters and police. I've suggested in another thread that, if the public favors the union staffing need position that an additional dedicated tax of another 1/4 cent or so shouldn't have that much trouble passing.

Exactly!


Why didn't the Mayor initially lead the idea of additional support for City Services. Through a tax or whatever. He's saying he's willing to do it now as an afterthought.

On Flash Point this morning he says....In one breath he says they are "separate issues". Then in the other he tells us he planned to use the "USE" tax from MAPS3 to support police and fire....in the same Flash Point he says if MAPS3 doesn't pass our Police and Fire Problems will multiply.

Our problems are going to multiply all of the sudden now?...IF MAPS3 doesn't pass....So we definitely have a problem...by his admission...so why hasn't he addressed it??

Geez..

According to the City's adopted budget for FY/09-10, here is a breakdown of the 3/4 cent Public Safety Sales Tax. The Revenue (income) figures are ESTIMATES, Personal Service Expenditures (expense) represents the ESTIMATED wages and benefits for the 200 additional Firefighters, and the 200 additional Police Officers for which the tax was meant to fund, as well as, obligated to fund. The Transfer figures represent money being shifted from the PSST over to the City's General Fund. What this means in plain english is Transfers = General Fund (income) relief. Transfer amounts are ACTUAL not estimates. The City makes sure they get each and every single penny back into their General Fund.(Personal Disclosure)Transfers= Kickback.

Fire Revenue- $34,937,773.
Expense- $21,951,210.
Transfer- $11,263,377.

Police Revenue- $34,937,773.
Expense- $23,707,114.
Transfer- $ 8,647,270.

Total Revenue- $69,875,546.
Expense- $45,658,324.
Transfer- $19,910,647.

Here are two more important facts. The City inflates the actual per Firefighter expense for bugetary purposes. The City holds vacancies throughout the fiscal year( in FY/03-04 they held 43). These two factors inflated cost and not filling vacant positions create savings to the budget.

The approximate amount of $4,306,575. that remains is divided between the F & P departments and used for other misc. expenses, capitol outlay, or held as a Fund Balance (savings account).

Since the tax rate is the focus of this thread, for clarification purposes I have a question. When you say attack, in what context are you using it for? Attacking in general? Attacking the current rate? Attacking by using a portion of the use tax? I just curious. FYI in the next week I will be compiling some facts and figures regarding the 3/4 PS Sales Tax

I really shoudn't use the word attack, but public safety's opposition to the 1% temporary sales tax being used to fund MAPS3.

According to the City's adopted budget for FY/09-10, here is a breakdown of the 3/4 cent Public Safety Sales Tax. The Revenue (income) figures are ESTIMATES, Personal Service Expenditures (expense) represents the ESTIMATED wages and benefits for the 200 additional Firefighters, and the 200 additional Police Officers for which the tax was meant to fund, as well as, obligated to fund. The Transfer figures represent money being shifted from the PSST over to the City's General Fund. What this means in plain english is Transfers = General Fund (income) relief. Transfer amounts are ACTUAL not estimates. The City makes sure they get each and every single penny back into their General Fund.(Personal Disclosure)Transfers= Kickback.

Fire Revenue- $34,937,773.
Expense- $21,951,210.
Transfer- $11,263,377.

Police Revenue- $34,937,773.
Expense- $23,707,114.
Transfer- $ 8,647,270.

Total Revenue- $69,875,546.
Expense- $45,658,324.
Transfer- $19,910,647.

Here are two more important facts. The City inflates the actual per Firefighter expense for bugetary purposes. The City holds vacancies throughout the fiscal year( in FY/03-04 they held 43). These two factors inflated cost and not filling vacant positions create savings to the budget.

The approximate amount of $4,306,575. that remains is divided between the F & P departments and used for other misc. expenses, capitol outlay, or held as a Fund Balance (savings account).

I think we can all admit that sales tax revenue is not a stable funding source for something as critical as police and fire protection. Unfortunately, the Oklahoma Constitution prohibits municipalities from using property tax for general operations. GO bonds can pay for additional funding, but just like MAPS, GO bonds are temporary. Citizens would be asked to repeatedly vote for a new CIP for police and fire every few years just to keep funding alive.

I think we can all admit that sales tax revenue is not a stable funding source for something as critical as police and fire protection. Unfortunately, the Oklahoma Constitution prohibits municipalities from using property tax for general operations. GO bonds can pay for additional funding, but just like MAPS, GO bonds are temporary. Citizens would be asked to repeatedly vote for a new CIP for police and fire every few years just to keep funding alive.

Thanks Andy for the figures. Pulse, does that still sound like a bull**** story? The city has been reducing their general fund obligation to the police and fire departments since the 3/4 cent sales tax passed. They reduced the number of FF and PO's paid for in the general fund so that we will never see the 200 ADDITIONAL FF's the tax was supposed to provide for. In the last ten years the FD call volume has increased by 85% while they have lost 49 positions. Hardly what the people voted for. They've become very creative in their methods of diverting these funds but anyone with a fair eye can see through their bull**** story. I still can't believe these are the people you are trusting with this vague ballot.

I like how a park is "vital" compared to police and fire services. Seriously? Some people on here seem to have completely lost perspective. I don't claim to know the whole story with the police and fire stuff, but you are sure buying what the mayor is selling when you think that the city will dry up and blow away without MAPS 3.

I like how a park is "vital" compared to police and fire services. Seriously? Some people on here seem to have completely lost perspective. I don't claim to know the whole story with the police and fire stuff, but you are sure buying what the mayor is selling when you think that the city will dry up and blow away without MAPS 3.

It's not going to dry up and blow away, but do you really think Oklahoma City is anywhere near where it could be, or should be if we want to be taken seriously as a major city? Can you not look at the massive changes MAPS created and think that MAPS 3 has the potential to do the same? As I've said, we're so far behind some of the other cities we want to emulate that if we stop improving things, we risk staying as far behind or falling farther behind. I want to catch up, and that takes action. What amuses me is that we keep seeing all this "rich people" paranoia, and yet, if we as a city don't improve ourself, we have to sit back and expect those "rich people" to do it for us. Rich people don't put in streetcars or mass transit or build public parks (except for Larry Nichols, to whom I am incredibly grateful, but who is the exception rather than the rule), they don't build sidewalks or bike trails. We need to be proactive as a city and as citizens, and work to make this a better place in which to live, to remove that "backwater" and "dustbowl" image we've got, to make this a vibrant, progressive city.

I like how a park is "vital" compared to police and fire services. Seriously? Some people on here seem to have completely lost perspective. I don't claim to know the whole story with the police and fire stuff, but you are sure buying what the mayor is selling when you think that the city will dry up and blow away without MAPS 3.

I never said the park was "vital" compared to police and fire services. Don't put words into my mouth. BOTH are vital, but public safety using MAPS as a pawn is not the answer. Sorry, but it's not.

Campaigning the city for a better, permanent funding source is the answer, but no one seems to get that through their head. Why didn't they go public with this before MAPS? No one has still been able to answer that one.

Thanks Andy for the figures. Pulse, does that still sound like a bull**** story? The city has been reducing their general fund obligation to the police and fire departments since the 3/4 cent sales tax passed. They reduced the number of FF and PO's paid for in the general fund so that we will never see the 200 ADDITIONAL FF's the tax was supposed to provide for. In the last ten years the FD call volume has increased by 85% while they have lost 49 positions. Hardly what the people voted for. They've become very creative in their methods of diverting these funds but anyone with a fair eye can see through their bull**** story. I still can't believe these are the people you are trusting with this vague ballot.

The police and fire unions are crying for more money, and that is by opposing a program that is funded by a temporary one cent sales tax while they have permanent funding through a dedicated .75% sales tax in addition to the lions share of a 2% general sales tax fund.

They argue that with MAPS 3 passing that police and fire services will be in peril. That's the bull**** story.

What they SHOULD be saying is with the continued growth of Oklahoma City, the current funding trend would put the fire and police protection in peril. I would buy that. If I were them, I would have been going public with this problem long ago. That would have put the city in a position BEFORE MAPS to address their needs.

As far as the vague ballot is concerned, there was information released as to why the wording of the ballot is extremely different. It turns out the wording of the original MAPS ballot was illegal, and to avoid possible challenges, the ballot for MAPS 3 had to generalize MAPS 3 as a single project, not multiple projects as it was on the first ballot.

We need to be proactive as a city and as citizens, and work to make this a better place in which to live, to remove that "backwater" and "dustbowl" image we've got, to make this a vibrant, progressive city.

Yea let's be like Houston. We already lead them in 3 of 7 Major crime categories. We beat them in Rape, Burglary, and Theft. We are neck and neck in Assaults. And they have 2 Million People in their city.

We lead Phoenix in Rape, Burglary, Theft and Assault.

Seattle...We lead them in Murders, Rape, Assault, Burglary and Theft.

Violent Crime Rates On The Rise | KSBI Thunder TV | News Sports Radar Weather Cams | Oklahoma City | News (http://www.ksbitv.com/news/46662862.html)

Big League City alright. Betts looks like your priorities are in line with the Mayor's. Unfortunately, you and the Mayor's :doh:good "quality of life" are a little out of the "norm" shall we say....:bright_id

The police and fire unions are crying for more money, and that is by opposing a program that is funded by a temporary one cent sales tax while they have permanent funding through a dedicated .75% sales tax in addition to the lions share of a 2% general sales tax fund.

How much is that lions share of the 2% general sales tax?

The police and fire unions are crying for more money, and that is by opposing a program that is funded by a temporary one cent sales tax while they have permanent funding through a dedicated .75% sales tax in addition to the lions share of a 2% general sales tax fund.

They argue that with MAPS 3 passing that police and fire services will be in peril. That's the bull**** story.

What they SHOULD be saying is with the continued growth of Oklahoma City, the current funding trend would put the fire and police protection in peril. I would buy that. If I were them, I would have been going public with this problem long ago. That would have put the city in a position BEFORE MAPS to address their needs.

As far as the vague ballot is concerned, there was information released as to why the wording of the ballot is extremely different. It turns out the wording of the original MAPS ballot was illegal, and to avoid possible challenges, the ballot for MAPS 3 had to generalize MAPS 3 as a single project, not multiple projects as it was on the first ballot.I brought this over from another thread. As you can see, you are right. We should have done a better job of voicing our concerns to the public years ago. Hopefully this lesson will not be forgotten in the future

To say that no one from the Fire or police departments said anything about staffing concerns until the MAPS 3 press release is not actually correct.

I can not speak for the administrations of either the Fire or Police departments, or the FOP. But I can assure you the IAFF has been talking about Firefighter staffing issue since 2001. Talks with Fire Chiefs, Councilpersons, and the City Manager have at best only been able to maintain the status quo.

When the Fire Dept. staffing level was at 999 in 2000 the City manager began his reduction plan. We argued against the reduction of staffing every year but to no avail. We had year after year of cuts that brought staffing down to 948 in 2004.

The City Managers plan was to continue making cuts down to a level of 900. The best we were able to accomplish is getting him stopped at 948. The only thing that kept him from his goal was the economy and the threats of a lawsuit.

Now with the economy as his cover and a game plan 6 years in the making he sees his oportunity to resume his plan. Our mistake I see now was that we did not take our vocal protest to the public years ago.

Yea let's be like Houston. We already lead them in 3 of 7 Major crime categories. We beat them in Rape, Burglary, and Theft. We are neck and neck in Assaults. And they have 2 Million People in their city.

We lead Phoenix in Rape, Burglary, Theft and Assault.

Seattle...We lead them in Murders, Rape, Assault, Burglary and Theft.

Violent Crime Rates On The Rise | KSBI Thunder TV | News Sports Radar Weather Cams | Oklahoma City | News (http://www.ksbitv.com/news/46662862.html)

Big League City alright. Betts looks like your priorities are in line with the Mayor's. Unfortunately, you and the Mayor's :doh:good "quality of life" are a little out of the "norm" shall we say....:bright_id

Don't throw crime stats in our faces. Police officers arrest criminals, not prevent them from committing crimes. Do you seriously think a rapist is going to check the staffing numbers of OKCPD to determine whether he's going to rape his next victim?

By adequately staffing police, response times will be increased, but it will damn sure not keep someone from busting in.

By increasing the quality of life, you decrease crime rates. Houston may have lower "rates" in some crime categories, but quality of life in Houston is incremental. There's a whole ward the HPD tries not to touch because things are so bad.

Don't throw crime stats in our faces. Police officers arrest criminals, not prevent them from committing crimes. Do you seriously think a rapist is going to check the staffing numbers of OKCPD to determine whether he's going to rape his next victim?

By adequately staffing police, response times will be increased, but it will damn sure not keep someone from busting in.

By increasing the quality of life, you decrease crime rates. Houston may have lower "rates" in some crime categories, but quality of life in Houston is incremental. There's a whole ward the HPD tries not to touch because things are so bad.

prepare to get trolled!

By increasing the quality of life, you decrease crime rates.

link(s)? lol! for the troll gallery

How much is that lions share of the 2% general sales tax?

Just FYI...

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/maps-3-could-generate-public-safety-money-city-says/article/3416820?custom_click=lead_story_title)

MAPS 3 could generate public safety money, Oklahoma City says (11/12/09)

Ward 1 Councilman Gary Marrs, a former fire chief, said he's upset about union claims that the city doesn't adequately support public safety. He noted that two-thirds of the city's annual general fund budget goes to public safety.

Police officers arrest criminals, not prevent them from committing crimes.
LOL...We try to catch them in the act but never do. We ALWAYS just arrest them after the fact. Your perception of our Police Department could be because their is no Manpower to do proactive policing, but we do catch a few in the act believe it or not. I can't even touch much of your post it's almost laughable.

Do you seriously think a rapist is going to check the staffing numbers of OKCPD to determine whether he's going to rape his next victim?

Not necessarily, but citizens do consider that as factor before they relocate or decide to stop for a visit.


By increasing the quality of life, you decrease crime rates. Houston may have lower "rates" in some crime categories, but quality of life in Houston is incremental.

Some call Houston the armpit of Texas. Did you know that?:bright_id


there's a whole ward the HPD tries not to touch because things are so bad.
Interesting that was my point! Which ward won't Houston PD touch. I have several contacts at Houston PD and i'd be curious to hear about that.

Well the Police and Fire need to keep something in mind here. By making a fuss about this in the manner they are, they are in danger of losing public support for their cause. If MAPS 3 fails to pass, the citizenry will consider it the fault of Police and Fire now whether they are the real cause of that failure or not. That being said...consider this folks. The next time a vote comes around to support you, the public will remember (and there will be groups making sure the public remembers) how MAPS 3 failed, and how we missed out on continuing our path to improving our city because some people got their feelings hurt.

You guys haven't considered what type of fight you've picked can have on your case. Who's going to vote for an increase in taxes for you if you complain all the time? Look at the OK County Sherrif for an example of how that always backfires. You need to have your own campaign to help your cause...not fighting one that improves the city WITHOUT question. The rationalization of the groups of how MAPS3 is unneccessary is very shortsighted. If we all thought that way, we would never have had MAPS 1...and where would we be today? We'd be continuing to decline and fall off the radar, losing population and losing even more money for you.

The best plan of actions is to #1, seek out federal grants to purchase the equipment you need. That removes the burdon of those dollars on your normal budget...freeing them up for employee expenses. #2, seek out bonds to do more of the same. This same policy has worked for other cities in the metro...look at MWC. They have the best rating in the state, and they aren't getting extra tax dollars from their citizens. It's just managed better...even including the new stations (bonds...hello). #3, if these things aren't working, start a campaign to let the public know of the problems...it's your job to convince them that we need to help out and add a bit of taxes. We're already one of the lowest taxes around, we can bump it up some and still be one of the lowest. If you explain things rationally without kicking dirt around on the playground, you'll get a lot more done. We all know HQ needs to be dozed over....but didn't the Santa Fe station get a facelift not long ago? You can't say things aren't being done. But it's your job to convince the public...and pissing and moaning about projects that the citizenry know to help out the city's continual climb, isn't going to help. In fact, it will hurt your argument.

Interesting that was my point! Which ward won't Houston PD touch. I have several contacts at Houston PD and i'd be curious to hear about that.

I was always told it was the fifth ward.

I was always told it was the fifth ward.
Funny. You stated it as a matter of fact. You see the difference between you and I is I like to speak about facts. So a homeless person in Downtown OKC could have told you the information? Wow! This is what you said...

There's a whole ward the HPD tries not to touch because things are so bad.
Well, we'll soon know from someone who lives it. Not was "told" it. If it turns out it's true. I'll give you credit. If it turns out you're wrong....
You see the statement on it's own sounds hard to believe. I've never heard of this place in Houston that's lawless and in "free for all" mode. So i'm curious.


Well the Police and Fire need to keep something in mind here. By making a fuss about this in the manner they are, they are in danger of losing public support for their cause.
Point taken. This decision to not support MAPS3 was not made lightly. I'm sure there are a few people that will blame the "Unions" if it doesn't pass. I definitely believe they will not support Police or Fire in the future as sort of a Tit for Tat response. Maybe, I have too much faith in people to believe that a large number will all of the sudden HATE the Police or Fire for standing on a different side of an issue.

I'll tell you, that this city's safety is at risk. Right Now! The Manpower shortage is about to be more evident than anyone wants. Maybe then their will be the citizen outcry everyone is looking for. From talking to hundreds of citizens over the last few days, I've learned that many are voting NO for some other reason besides Public Safety. The Public Safety issue is just something else to add their failure to support MAPS3. Keep in mind. If blaming Police and Fire is your answer along with retaliation by not supporting anything for them on any issue. Then fine, but you're in the minority.
It would be easy to say I'll be on a crusade to stop all future MAPS projects if this one passes, but that's ridiculous. I take it one election and issue at a time. I'd suggest you do the same, to ensure your "responsible" with you vote. :bright_id
I'll agree these issues about the lack of Manpower to provide adequate Police and Fire Service should have been made public years ago. Instead of trying to handle each issue behind closed doors and shielding the public from the truth. We should come out publicly years ago.

You guys haven't considered what type of fight you've picked can have on your case. Who's going to vote for an increase in taxes for you if you complain all the time?

When have you ever heard us complain? Please cite some cases of us complaining other than the current situation. If not for the current goings on you and everyone else would still be blissfully ignorant of what's been going on for the last 10 to 15 years. We tried to work with the people who could fix the problems, only to be told they didn't see a problem. If you can't read some of Andy157's posts and realize why this has come to a head then nothing I can say will help.


This same policy has worked for other cities in the metro...look at MWC. They have the best rating in the state, and they aren't getting extra tax dollars from their citizens. It's just managed better...

I assume you still live in MWC. If so you might want to stop in at one of your local firehouses and find out how they feel about their situation before you use them as an example of how good things can be. I grew up in MWC too, and still have friends who work for the MWCFD. They do have the only ISO rating 1 in the state. They got this because of the hard work and training put in by the men and women at the stations.
Do you know how the city repaid them? Approx. 4-5 years ago, when the 29th St. construction was starting to kick at full speed, the city manager came to the police and fire employees and told them that if they would forego raises for 4 years they would use that money for infrastructure to speed the 29th St. project up. After this time they would catch the police and fire employees up in pay to where they should be. 4 years later when they came to the city and asked to be caught up they were denied. You see the city manager had died and his assistant (who was well aware of the agreement) had taken his place. His response was "I didn't make that agreement with you". Now they have reached an agreement with their city, but only after a prolonged fight.
So unless you know what goes on behind the doors, don't assume you know more about what's happening than we do. We are very aware of the risks associated with our stance.

There's a whole ward the HPD tries not to touch because things are so bad.
Flushed your credibility down the tubes. Your WRONG! I'm not surprised.

Houston PD officer says. That 5th ward was very crime ridden 25 to 30 years ago and did have one of the higher crime rates. Today, it's not even in the top 5 of crime ridden beats. The Southwest side of the city has the higher crime rates and has for several years. Their high crime rates are due to what he called "new arrivals". Illegal immigrants.
There is no part of the city "they won't touch".
So unless you know what goes on behind the doors, don't assume you know more about what's happening than we do.
That's some sound advice for you. Consider taking it.

Funny. You stated it as a matter of fact. You see the difference between you and I is I like to speak about facts. So a homeless person in Downtown OKC could have told you the information? Wow! This is what you said...


I was told that by a Mongtomery County Sheriff in Conroe. Everyone in Houston had said that the fifth ward in Houston is dangerous, and that Houston cops try to avoid that area.

So I bumped into the Sheriff at Kroger and asked him, out of curiousity, if that is true. He said he doesn't think any officer wants to find themselves in the fifth ward, but they have to.

So, it wasn't some homeless guy in OKC. :)

Flushed your credibility down the tubes. Your WRONG! I'm not surprised.

Houston PD officer says. That 5th ward was very crime ridden 25 to 30 years ago and did have one of the higher crime rates. Today, it's not even in the top 5 of crime ridden beats. The Southwest side of the city has the higher crime rates and has for several years. Their high crime rates are due to what he called "new arrivals". Illegal immigrants.
There is no part of the city "they won't touch".
So unless you know what goes on behind the doors, don't assume you know more about what's happening than we do.
That's some sound advice for you. Consider taking it.

Hey now, there is no need to attack me. I never assumed anything, much less know more about what is happening. If I am told this by someone in uniform, I can't assume the guy is an idiot. I am not a Houston native, so I have to take their word.

LarryOKC,
Concerning councilman Marrs comment about the two-thirds of the general fund going to public safety. I would like to clarify that the amount he is talking about includes all of the public safety services (police, fire, EMSA, 911 call center).

With that being said, he is very careful NOT to talk about how the City has not increased the number of authorized positions within the police department since 1989. Councilman Marrs is also very careful NOT to mention that the City has made the decision to decrease the number of officers assigned to patrol duties during this same time. These decisions have been made while the City has increased by over 100,000 people and over 55,000 commercial/residential structures have been added.

Finally, the City also does not like to talk about how this has caused the response time to priority one calls to increase to almost ten minutes seventy percent of the time. The earliest response time information available from the City is from 1996 and that shows that ALL priority one calls were responded to in an average of just over seven minutes.

Visit the following link for more facts:
http://www.okcissues.com/okcissues.com/Links_&_Documents_files/Not%20This%20MAPS%20info-1.pdf

You can also check out a Powerpoint presented by chief Citty to the city council in February of 2009 at the following link:
http://www.okcissues.com/okcissues.com/Links_&_Documents_files/police_powerpoint.pdf

I believe I have posted this information on another thread but I thought it was worth pointing out here.

LarryOKC,
Concerning councilman Marrs comment about the two-thirds of the general fund going to public safety. I would like to clarify that the amount he is talking about includes all of the public safety services (police, fire, EMSA, 911 call center).

With that being said, he is very careful NOT to talk about how the City has not increased the number of authorized positions within the police department since 1989. Councilman Marrs is also very careful NOT to mention that the City has made the decision to decrease the number of officers assigned to patrol duties during this same time. These decisions have been made while the City has increased by over 100,000 people and over 55,000 commercial/residential structures have been added.

Finally, the City also does not like to talk about how this has caused the response time to priority one calls to increase to almost ten minutes seventy percent of the time. The earliest response time information available from the City is from 1996 and that shows that ALL priority one calls were responded to in an average of just over seven minutes.

Visit the following link for more facts:
http://www.okcissues.com/okcissues.com/Links_&_Documents_files/Not%20This%20MAPS%20info-1.pdf

You can also check out a Powerpoint presented by chief Citty to the city council in February of 2009 at the following link:
http://www.okcissues.com/okcissues.com/Links_&_Documents_files/police_powerpoint.pdf

I believe I have posted this information on another thread but I thought it was worth pointing out here.

And again, you guys are attacking a project with a temporary funding source instead of campaigning for a permanent funding source. What part of this do you guys not get?

You guys need to understand that I strongly agree that staffing needs to be increased in both departments, but opposing MAPS 3 because of these issues is not the best road to take. What if MAPS 3 was for police and fire? What if $777 million was used to fund new positions? What happens when the seven year tax expires? How THEN would OKCPD and OKCFD fund new positions?

And if this problem as been happening for 20 years, why wait until MAPS 3 to blow the horn?

If you campaigned for permanent funding increases, then money for new positions would never be in jeopardy.

I never assumed anything, much less know more about what is happening.

Here I'll let you read it again.

There's a whole ward the HPD tries not to touch because things are so bad.

So unless you know what goes on behind the doors, don't assume you know more about what's happening than we do.
Take the advice and let's move on. :tiphat:

Pulse, why should they campaign for a new permanent funding source when one is already in place? The city should abide by the vote of the people and use the money as it was voted to be used. I don't know all of the ins and outs here, but what I am reading and being told is that the funding is being misapplied as it concerns the public safety aspect. The firefighters and police officers on this board are trying to tell us what has been happening the last couple of years or more with their negotiations with the city manager and council.

And again, you guys are attacking a project with a temporary funding source instead of campaigning for a permanent funding source. What part of this do you guys not get?
Why don't you understand that we have been asking for a permanent funding source. That's why the leaders went before the council. We don't decide what goes to the voters. We would have loved to see a permanent funding tax go on the same ballot with MAP3. That's what we wanted.

And if this problem as been happening for 20 years, why wait until MAPS 3 to blow the horn?
Good question! That's our own fault, but when every year your promised next year. You have hope. Then after so long you have to call bull when you've heard it so long. So our only recourse is to go Public. None of us are politicians and quite frankly despise having to go over the city counsel to the public.

opposing MAPS 3 because of these issues is not the best road to take
That's easy to say, but when every other avenue has been exhausted. Then letting the public know is the only other option. What's your suggestion? We are all ears...We would have gladly tried something else...

Why don't you understand that we have been asking for a permanent funding source. That's why the leaders went before the council. We don't decide what goes to the voters. We would have loved to see a permanent funding tax go on the same ballot with MAP3. That's what we wanted.

Good question! That's our own fault, but when every year your promised next year. You have hope. Then after so long you have to call bull when you've heard it so long. So our only recourse is to go Public. None of us are politicians and quite frankly despise having to go over the city counsel to the public.

That's easy to say, but when every other avenue has been exhausted. Then letting the public know is the only other option. What's your suggestion? We are all ears...We would have gladly tried something else...

Wouldn't a public campaign for increasing fire & police safety after MAPS not have worked?

In 2010, after the passage of MAPS 3, I would have sent a message to the media after one final "no" from city leaders for a request to increase funding to hire additional staff.

My message would have been "With the anticipated increase in activity generated as a result of MAPS 3, we are facing a greater burden in police and fire protection as the city has not increased staffing for police and fire since 1989."

That will then put pressure on the city from both pro and anti-MAPS parties, and then everyone is on the same page, perhaps even the city government.

okcpulse,
For the last two years the representatives from the police union have been meeting with city council members and telling them that we needed a funding source for additional staff. (They knew about it prior to then, this was just official meetings.) This issue is no surprise to them.

When the MAPS 3 campaign was revealed the police union representatives once again went to the city council and asked for a solution. The City said NO. The police and fire were given no other solution.

It is only within the last week that the City has mentioned that the use tax COULD be used to resolve the staffing needs of both departments. They will NOT give any specifics about how much of the use tax would be given to fire and police. They will not put ANYTHING in writing concerning hard numbers in relation to their offer. The offer only says they will CONSIDER giving SOME monies from the use tax. Ask yourself why the City would not make the offer they made to the fire and police public?

It is for this reason that the offer was refused....... Specifics are required. With each MAPS tax the fire and police have been told to wait their turn. The City has encouraged police and fire to be silent for the good of the City. The City did not want the citizens to hear how bad the situation is. Fire and police are finished being silent about the issue and waiting.

For the last two years the representatives from the police union have been meeting with city council members and telling them that we needed a funding source for additional staff. (They knew about it prior to then, this was just official meetings.) This issue is no surprise to them.

When the MAPS 3 campaign was revealed the police union representatives once again went to the city council and asked for a solution. The City said NO. The police and fire were given no other solution.

Exactly! Citizens shouldn't have to wait for 2-4 hours for a Police Officer to quell a disturbance with a neighbor or investigate a suspicious car parked down the street etc... Address the NEEDS... then Address the wants. Park, Convention Center, etc...

Lets get some transparency here.
Cornett Blogs (http://markshannon.com/CORNETT.htm)
Home (http://nomaps3.com/)

Facts...

http://www.okcissues.com/okcissues.com/Links_&_Documents_files/Not%20This%20MAPS%20info-1.pdf

I've stated my case. Police and fire should publicly campaign for a permanent funding source. I am 100% behind you guys getting the help you need, but I don't appreciate being attacked and being told I should take advice. It's as much of a learning process for me as it is for anyone.

Public safety officials have been going to the city about this for years. I get that now. But I would have gone public long ago. Anyway, it doesn't matter now. The public knows about the city's safety concerns, and now city officials must deal with it. The cat's out of the bag.

But in a city like Oklahoma City, who has to work twice as hard as other cities to compete, you have to address your needs AND your wants, which in OKC's case are needs. Top notch public safety, education, recreation and transportation are the magic four elements to ensure a thriving city.

Top notch public safety, education, recreation and transportation are the magic four elements to ensure a thriving city.
Amen. Preach it! It's the order, in which you address each one. The order you just listed is almost perfect except I'd move recreation to last. In my opinion, A 70 acre park, walking trails, sidewalks, an fair improvements are Recreation and so far from the OKC citizens I've spoken to they agree.

Public safety officials have been going to the city about this for years. I get that now. But I would have gone public long ago. Anyway, it doesn't matter now. The public knows about the city's safety concerns, and now city officials must deal with it. The cat's out of the bag.
You won't get arguments there either. We're finding out that failing to make this an issue for all of the public to hear was a big mistake. To be honest, It's very embarrassing and unprofessional to tell a citizen that they had to wait 4 hours to have their accident worked because the city officials REFUSE to address Manpower shortages. Lesson learned though.

I've stated my case. Police and fire should publicly campaign for a permanent funding source. I am 100% behind you guys getting the help you need, but I don't appreciate being attacked and being told I should take advice.

Very well stated.

I've stated my case. Police and fire should publicly campaign for a permanent funding source. I am 100% behind you guys getting the help you need, but I don't appreciate being attacked and being told I should take advice. It's as much of a learning process for me as it is for anyone.

Public safety officials have been going to the city about this for years. I get that now. But I would have gone public long ago. Anyway, it doesn't matter now. The public knows about the city's safety concerns, and now city officials must deal with it. The cat's out of the bag.

But in a city like Oklahoma City, who has to work twice as hard as other cities to compete, you have to address your needs AND your wants, which in OKC's case are needs. Top notch public safety, education, recreation and transportation are the magic four elements to ensure a thriving city.I will be glad to see Dec. the 9th get here. If it passes. I hope the parties will get the bleeding stopped, address the P.S. issues, and let the wounds heal. If it fails. I hope the parties will get the bleeding stopped, go back to drawing board, hammer out a workable plan for P.S. and MAPS, get it back out, work together and make it happen, and let the wounds heal.

I will be glad to see Dec. the 9th get here. If it passes. I hope the parties will get the bleeding stopped, address the P.S. issues, and let the wounds heal. If it fails. I hope the parties will get the bleeding stopped, go back to drawing board, hammer out a workable plan for P.S. and MAPS, get it back out, work together and make it happen, and let the wounds heal.

Good luck with that. From the tenor of this forum, I don't think there will be any healing wounds for a while. Until the policemen and firemen are happy (although I'm assuming MAPS failing would thrill you all), their wounds aren't healing. And, if it fails and union lobbying is the cause, I don't know if I'm speaking for anyone other than myself when I say it will be very difficult to forget that if there's any other voting to be done. I have always been in favor of both sides getting what they need, but since I think the unions are going about it in a wrong and destructive manner, I don't know how that cannot affect my attitude.

Good luck with that. From the tenor of this forum, I don't think there will be any healing wounds for a while. Until the policemen and firemen are happy (although I'm assuming MAPS failing would thrill you all), their wounds aren't healing. And, if it fails and union lobbying is the cause, I don't know if I'm speaking for anyone other than myself when I say it will be very difficult to forget that if there's any other voting to be done. I have always been in favor of both sides getting what they need, but since I think the unions are going about it in a wrong and destructive manner, I don't know how that cannot affect my attitude.

Betts, I've been at this for over 20 years now and can tell you that the FF's have rarely held the city accountable and this is one of those rare occasions. They are always willing to work with the city. It just has to work both ways. As far as what you do in the future, that's something only you control. I have a hard time believing that MAPS 3 proponents for the city would just pick up their toys and go home. If they truly believe in what they are doing they will rework it and try again.

look i do like maps 3 and think the some of the items would be great.... at the RIGHT time. the big thing is its just not the right time right now to worry about wants. thats what its all about its not right to get wants right now.

if you are feeling the crunch at home and just have enough money to get your bills paid but are falling behind and realize that basic home improvements are a must but arent getting done, but you went to the bank to get a loan to blow the money in vegas where sure you might consider it an investment because you might get some fo the moeny back but the odd s are you wont get all of it back. would that sound reasonable? no of course not so why we giving the city a blank check to do what THEY want and THEIR terms. none of which are what the city NEEDS at this time to keep the city running.

I have a hard time believing that MAPS 3 proponents for the city would just pick up their toys and go home. If they truly believe in what they are doing they will rework it and try again.

Rework in what way? What precisely needs to be reworked, and how will that make a difference? Either MAPS as a concept is a good one or it isn't. Casually assuring people that we can always do this again in a few years sounds like rationalization as a salve to conscience. If it's a bad thing it remains bad and if it's a good thing it's as good today as it will be in 2 years.

MAPS supporters are precisely the people who are the most likely to be supportive of labor wishes because they both are concepts that probably have higher support among Democrats. MAPS probably has a broader base of support, as there are Republicans who can see the value of paying as you go instead of indebtedness, but regardless, I'm not sure it's a good idea to antagonize your fan base.

Wambo - I did grow up in MWC, but live in OKC now. I know a number of MWC PD and FD officers. The city has made up for anything they did at that time with plenty "gifts" for the department in the last couple of years. Remember that in the years that they weren't given raises, schools were laying off teachers because of huge budget problems in the state. I see no reason why civic employees should be any different from other groups and be protected in tough times. And 29th has done a crapload of good for the budget of MWC...which in turn makes more available for the departments in sales tax dollars. They might have lost a little at one time, but it's a give and take...and they got plenty out of it. You don't see MWC folks in anything but the best of equipment, now do you?

As for OKC, personally, I am going to remember how these two groups are acting when my voting comes around. I'm going to approve Maps 3 no matter what these groups say. And next time a vote comes around to approve something for these groups, they're going to have to do a better and more factual and precise job of convincing me that they need this. A lot of the arguments I've seen on the part of these groups are wants, not needs. They say they need this item or that, but really they're just to beef up an already more than adequate system. You want to see someone with problems, go find a volunteer group with a 50 year old truck. Don't piss and moan about a 10 or 15 year old one to me. You want man power, I'll give you that one...but find me a police or fire department somewhere in the country that doesn't always want more manpower.

bombermwc.

No worries. Just give them a "Blank Check"...and don't worry about it. You're an easy voter and an easy taxpayer to fleece.

You want to see someone with problems, go find a volunteer group with a 50 year old truck. Don't piss and moan about a 10 or 15 year old one to me.
I grew up in a small town with old trucks. Which one has trucks that are 50 years old? How many times does a volunteer fire department get called out? Vs how many times does a fireman in this city answer a call? You have no idea of the cost it takes to maintain old equipment for a fire department of this size that has an older truck.

Did you know that the maintenance records for a car that was 7 years old was up over 125K. That's after the warranty expired of course. Just by trying to keep that car. That was a time when most cars in the fleet were 7 to 10 years old. Did you know we have plenty of cars that are 7-10 years old right now? Do the math. we could have bought 4 more brand new cars for that. Nice Logic. You see you know nothing about why having a 10 or 15 year old Fire Truck is unsafe, a problem or at least NOT very cost effective. :bright_id

Wambo - I did grow up in MWC, but live in OKC now. I know a number of MWC PD and FD officers. The city has made up for anything they did at that time with plenty "gifts" for the department in the last couple of years. Remember that in the years that they weren't given raises, schools were laying off teachers because of huge budget problems in the state. I see no reason why civic employees should be any different from other groups and be protected in tough times. And 29th has done a crapload of good for the budget of MWC...which in turn makes more available for the departments in sales tax dollars. They might have lost a little at one time, but it's a give and take...and they got plenty out of it. You don't see MWC folks in anything but the best of equipment, now do you?

As for OKC, personally, I am going to remember how these two groups are acting when my voting comes around. I'm going to approve Maps 3 no matter what these groups say. And next time a vote comes around to approve something for these groups, they're going to have to do a better and more factual and precise job of convincing me that they need this. A lot of the arguments I've seen on the part of these groups are wants, not needs. They say they need this item or that, but really they're just to beef up an already more than adequate system. You want to see someone with problems, go find a volunteer group with a 50 year old truck. Don't piss and moan about a 10 or 15 year old one to me. You want man power, I'll give you that one...but find me a police or fire department somewhere in the country that doesn't always want more manpower.

Maybe you need to call some of your friends on the FD to get a clearer picture. Surely you didn't miss them picketing city hall with their supporters and families? As far as any "gifts" I'm not sure what your talking about. Enlighten me. I can asssure you they didn't see them as gifts in lieu of their raises. There was a straight forward deal made, and the city reneged on their part of it. Now the PD did get caught up, but only to keep them from joining the FD in their informational picket.
As far as your stance on the OKC PD and FD, that's entirely your perogative. You and Betts and other like minded people certainly need to vote your conscience. I wouldn't expect anything different. If our arguments sound like "wants over needs" and the MAPS 3 ballot sounds like needs to you, then I'm pretty sure you and I are wasting our breath on each other.
I don't think you've seen anybody say we need items or equipment. This is about staffing plain and simple. We are operating our dept. below the numbers we had 10 years ago, while the minimum staffing levels have been raised by the city. Even the city has grudgingly admitted there is a problem.

Yeah we're wasting time on one another. And picketing in MWC....wasn't as big a deal as you think it was. They have a comfy state of life....if they didn't like it, they could have moved on to a different department by now. But this discussion isn't about the way the politics played out in MWC...my point at MWC was that it didn't take an ANTI vote of 29th by the FD to end up making things work out. And they did, whether you think so or not.

But back to OKC, yeah I'm going to continue to help vote in support of projects proven to help support and advance my city. I've said all along, it's not that I don't support the Fire or Police departments. What I don't support is the way they are going about their argument. If there is a problem, it needs to be address on its own. We're not playing the amendment game here where we tack crap on so it gets through. If there is a problem, get it address on its own and stop trying to hijack other projects.

In fairness to the other side, Pulse, the 3/4 cent earmarked sales tax has been around since 1989 but the amount is obviously not enough enough to provide for permanent staffing of additional fire fighters and police. I've suggested in another thread (http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/19717-police-firemen-have-another-route.html) that, if the public favors the union staffing need position that an additional dedicated tax of another 1/4 cent or so shouldn't have that much trouble passing.


Good point Doug; We passed one for the zoo and it has been productive and the animals are quiet for now; maybe we can pass a permanent sales (1/4 penny sales tax) for police & fire; this could quiet them until MAPS 4--expanded Rail, Soccer/Track/Football Stadium, and MAPS One aging improvements...

Good point Doug; We passed one for the zoo and it has been productive and the animals are quiet for now; maybe we can pass a permanent sales (1/4 penny sales tax) for police & fire; this could quiet them until MAPS 4--expanded Rail, Soccer/Track/Football Stadium, and MAPS One aging improvements...


Listen mac, P.S. has always backed MAPS projects, until THIS MAPS hence the name of the campaign. You're using a bad tone, insinuating that we are like animals and you are marginalizing people. If the city gets its stuff in a pile, puts its money where it is needed first (back into personnel for all departments), and then pushes MAPS - right on. P.S. is below agreed upon staffing numbers, agreed upon numbers, Atari what do you think would happen if we fought this fight retrospectively to an MIII passage. I can say honestly that a fat council with properly lined pockets would deny every request, every need as is their custom during times of negotiation. P.S. will not strike, it is against the law, and more importantly against the ethics upon which rest their profession in providing safety to the masses, what they have is good faith negotiations, the city crapped on that idea and we are where we are. This is not unions holding progress hostage, this is progress threatening to cripple and weaken the legs upon which it stands. City leaders are claiming theirs is the path of growth, certainly they've spread enough manure to grow their money tree from the Yes voters.

But this discussion isn't about the way the politics played out in MWC...my point at MWC was that it didn't take an ANTI vote of 29th by the FD to end up making things work out. And they did, whether you think so or not.

Your right, this isn't about MWC. I wasn't the one who brought them into it. Just so you know though, I talked to one of them less than a half hour ago, and he found your assertion that they had "ended up making things work out" laughable at best. Suffice it to say they are chalking it up to a lesson learned.