Interesting. So...we really don't need laws to govern right from wrong because we all have 'thought and reason' - therefore we don't really have to respond to any kind of authority because we are our own authority?

Now now...We are discussing religion, not law, but do you not agree that thought and reason are required to write laws to protect our individual human rights and freedom?

No - my question is WHERE does the whole 'right/wrong' guide come from? I mean - that sense of 'this is wrong' whether murder or stealing etc. - is that sense with us from birth?

The way my therapist buddies describe it is that we gain our sense of right and wrong and ability to feel empathy by virtue of having an authority/parental figure whose opionion matters to us up to age three. Intially, the desire to do right vs. wrong is both defined by them and imprinted upon us by virtue of our desire to please. In time, we adopt or reject those values as we develop a more mature sense of self. Absent a consistent parental figure at an early age (three and below), the likelihood of developing a conscience is much more limited - that is one theory of where we get sociopaths - humans who lack empathy and/or a conscience. In my guardian ad litem work, we try very hard to avoid disrupting the parent/child relationship up to age three because if they get attachment issues, they frequently don't develop a robust conscience or ability to empathize.

Personally, I suspect that contributes to some of the crime you see in poverty stricken people. More poverty, more disruptions in parent/child relationship, less empathy, more crime. Not the only reason but a contributing one. You see the problem a lot in children adopted from overseas who have not been nurtured. They have actually stopped allowing adoptions from certain countries because so many of the children are so damaged from being neglected in orphanages and you can't go back and undo it, usually. Up to age three is essential.

Now now...We are discussing religion, not law, but do you not agree that thought and reason are required to write laws to protect our individual human rights and freedom?

I'm just wondering - many of our laws (not all of them but the most basic laws ie - murder; theft; etc) are based on something. They are not based on thought/reason as much as they are based on 'right/wrong' which came from???? Seems like I recall hearing that many of our basic laws were orgianally based on the 10 Commandments - or something like that. If so - seems like religion (10 Commandments) were/are helpful to us as a society.

There are different types of law but you seem to be referring to criminal law. In our country, most of it is statutory but things that have been against the law for a long time generally came up thorough common law, based on our English heritage which is the basis of our legal system. Obviously, England has a long standing christian tradition but most of its basic laws - murder, etc., surely are mimicked in other countries who don't have a christian background. I would be interested in comparing our law with countries who don't have a christian tradition such as China or India. I never studied that and don't really have a frame of reference.

the basic reasoning and thought is:
I dont want to get murdered so lets make it wrong
I dont want my things stolen so lets make it wrong..


jeeze how hard is that?

the basic reasoning and thought is:
I dont want to get murdered so lets make it wrong
I dont want my things stolen so lets make it wrong..


jeeze how hard is that?

Okay...but WHY is it wrong? By what standard/idea/whatever determines its right or wrong? Please, please don't tell me its a 'feeling'....

Self preservation, Buckt. You pass a law to outlaw murder because you want the community to protect you from being murdered.

the basic reasoning and thought is:
I dont want to get murdered so lets make it wrong
I dont want my things stolen so lets make it wrong..


jeeze how hard is that?

the basic reasoning and thought is:
I dont want to get murdered so lets make it wrong
I dont want my things stolen so lets make it wrong..


jeeze how hard is that?

Oh..I get it. So its kind of like "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"..NOW....we are getting somewhere....

Oh..I get it. So its kind of like "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"..NOW....we are getting somewhere....

Or "I agree I won't murder anyone if everyone agrees that we'll all band together to kill anyone who does." It is a social contract where you give up the right to kill, steal, rape etc., in exchange for the community agreeing that they will do the same thing and punish anyone who breaks the rules.

I'm just wondering - many of our laws (not all of them but the most basic laws ie - murder; theft; etc) are based on something. They are not based on thought/reason as much as they are based on 'right/wrong' which came from???? Seems like I recall hearing that many of our basic laws were orgianally based on the 10 Commandments - or something like that. If so - seems like religion (10 Commandments) were/are helpful to us as a society.

Did humans exist within societies thousands of years prior to the 10 commandments? Of course. Did those societies have laws? Of course.

Is there anything wrong with the 10 C's? Nope. Are the 10 C's original thought or did they evolve from human society? You know the answer.

Did humans exist within societies thousands of years prior to the 10 commandments? Of course. Did those societies have laws? Of course.

Is there anything wrong with the 10 C's? Nope. Are the 10 C's original thought or did they evolve from human society? You know the answer.

I take it that you are saying the some of the basis for our laws have no religious/religion connected to them?

I take it that you are saying the some of the basis for our laws have no religious/religion connected to them?

I'm saying that religion is a creation of man. You can take it from there.

I'm saying that religion is a creation of man. You can take it from there.

Help me understand. Are you saying that in America today -if we had no/zero/nada what are calling 'religion' influence then we'd have utopia?

Help me understand. Are you saying that in America today -if we had no/zero/nada what are calling 'religion' influence then we'd have utopia?

Nope. We will never have utopia with all these humans around here. :wink:

Oh..I get it. So its kind of like "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"..NOW....we are getting somewhere....

no its more like self interest..and we all know how the stated philosophy about Christianity is all about giving and serving others...

Or "I agree I won't murder anyone if everyone agrees that we'll all band together to kill anyone who does." It is a social contract where you give up the right to kill, steal, rape etc., in exchange for the community agreeing that they will do the same thing and punish anyone who breaks the rules.

YES


By jove she's got it.

Nope. We will never have utopia with all these humans around here. :wink:

LOL
My mom once told me she is looking for the "perfect" church.
I told her please dont join it...

Nope. We will never have utopia with all these humans around here. :wink:

I knew it! I knew it! There would be something we could agree on...and we do! Because of this agreement it almost makes me want to sing "Give Me That Ole Time Religion" - but I won't...LOL....

I knew it! I knew it! There would be something we could agree on...and we do! Because of this agreement it almost makes me want to sing "Give Me That Ole Time Religion" - but I won't...LOL....

I'm sure there are many things we agree on.

But your old time religion has yet to result in utopia as well. The conflicting religions of the world have resulted in human suffering and death for millenia. Religions have been arguing over which group of them god loves more for all of religious history, and all of the Abrahamic religious call for the true believers to kill the infidel. Therein lies the problem and the subject of the OP.

While most modern religions have abandonded killing infidels, all of the Abrahamic religions still rely on personal guilt and fear to fill the financial coffers and recruit new members while maintaing the financial base of the old timers. Is this really an effective social model?

If you feel you must have a religion, I suggest Buddhism, although it may be more of a philosophy than a religion. I've never seen Buddhist televangelists, or door to door recruiters, or guilt tripping Buddhists passing the offering plate. Seems one has too seek and find them and then embark upon a personal journey of spiritual enlightenment without imposing your beliefs upon others through fear and guilt. No fear of hell. Kinda of peaceful sounding to me......

What do Buddhists believe - Beliefs of Buddhism (http://buddhism.about.com/od/introductiontobuddhism/a/budbeliefs.htm)

And no, I'm not Buddhist. If I were, you guys would not likely see me here enjoying all these delightful time wasting debates.

Mr. Instructor -

Just wondering - holiday's like Thanksgiving; Christmas are obviously rooted in religion - do you or your family celebrate them? From what I'm trying to understand about you - I kind of doubt that observe them at least not in the religious sense. Right or wrong?

Theres many agnostics as well as atheists/ even satanists,lol, who celebrate them as a way to enjoy time with family.

Theres many agnostics as well as atheists/ even satanists,lol, who celebrate them as a way to enjoy time with family.

Yeah but is Thanksgiving/Christmas gathering for agnositics and others you mention the same as a family reunion...no religious reason for meeting?

Mr. Instructor -

Just wondering - holiday's like Thanksgiving; Christmas are obviously rooted in religion - do you or your family celebrate them? From what I'm trying to understand about you - I kind of doubt that observe them at least not in the religious sense. Right or wrong?

Buckt, I'm agnostic, meaning I don't know if there is a god or not, and neither does anyone else actually know. I choose to not waste time with religious persuits. Call me an apethetic agnostic. Here's a church I'd join if I weren't so darned apathetic:

The Church of the Apathetic Agnostic welcomes you (http://www.uctaa.net/index.html)

Here's the Articles of Faith:

1. The existence of a Supreme Being is unknown and unknowable.


2. If there is a Supreme Being, then that being appears to act as if entirely apathetic to events in our universe.


3. We are apathetic to the existence or non-existence of a Supreme Being.

Seriously, I was raised Baptist. As I got older, I questioned the "faith". I learned that Christianity is only the latest version of religion with a savior born of a virgin, whose mother was Mary or a synonym of Mary, who was cricified, buried and rose from the dead. I also learned that the ten commandments were essentially the same as is found in the Egyptian book of the dead. If there is a god, it is not the god of the Abrahamic religions, therefore I reject all of the Abrahamic religions as hybrids of other ancient religions.

As to Christmas and Thanksgiving, we get together with family and enjoy our visit and food traditions. My wife's side still practices Christianity, but essentially just say a blessing over the food and that's the extent of it. Probably similar to a majority of evolving Christians in America today. My family considers birthdays as having greater significance than any traditional religious holiday, because that is your date of entrance onto this planet and is cause for celebration.

So there you have it, "Holiday's for the Agnostic 101".

Yeah but is Thanksgiving/Christmas gathering for agnositics and others you mention the same as a family reunion...no religious reason for meeting?

Well as in any family there's some who look at it that way or another.

Buckt, I'm agnostic, meaning I don't know if there is a god or not, and neither does anyone else actually know. I choose to not waste time with religious persuits. Call me an apethetic agnostic. Here's a church I'd join if I weren't so darned apathetic:

The Church of the Apathetic Agnostic welcomes you (http://www.uctaa.net/index.html)

Here's the Articles of Faith:

1. The existence of a Supreme Being is unknown and unknowable.


2. If there is a Supreme Being, then that being appears to act as if entirely apathetic to events in our universe.


3. We are apathetic to the existence or non-existence of a Supreme Being.

Seriously, I was raised Baptist. As I got older, I questioned the "faith". I learned that Christianity is only the latest version of religion with a savior born of a virgin, whose mother was Mary or a synonym of Mary, who was cricified, buried and rose from the dead. I also learned that the ten commandments were essentially the same as is found in the Egyptian book of the dead. If there is a god, it is not the god of the Abrahamic religions, therefore I reject all of the Abrahamic religions as hybrids of other ancient religions.

As to Christmas and Thanksgiving, we get together with family and enjoy our visit and food traditions. My wife's side still practices Christianity, but essentially just say a blessing over the food and that's the extent of it. Probably similar to a majority of evolving Christians in America today. My family considers birthdays as having greater significance than any traditional religious holiday, because that is your date of entrance onto this planet and is cause for celebration.

So there you have it, "Holiday's for the Agnostic 101".

Thank you so much for sharing this. Don't get the big head here but I enjoy hearing your point of view. If you'd be interested I'd like to go a little deeper but not through this venue (OKC Talk). I'm wondering if there is a way to send a private message?

Yeah but is Thanksgiving/Christmas gathering for agnositics and others you mention the same as a family reunion...no religious reason for meeting?

For my wife, kids, and I there is no religious connotation whatsoever. However, for many in my family Christmas at least is partially a religious celebration. We look at it as a celebration of friends and family, more or less anyway.

For my wife, kids, and I there is no religious connotation whatsoever. However, for many in my family Christmas at least is partially a religious celebration. We look at it as a celebration of friends and family, more or less anyway.

Call me old fashioned but - the holiday "Thanksgiving" seems to indicate 'giving thanks' and has it's origin in America with giving thanks to God. Maybe a better word for the holiday for some could be "Family Gathering" or "Over Eat Day" if there is no religious connection to the day? (I'm just thinking out loud....)

Call me old fashioned but - the holiday "Thanksgiving" seems to indicate 'giving thanks' and has it's origin in America with giving thanks to God. Maybe a better word for the holiday for some could be "Family Gathering" or "Over Eat Day" if there is no religious connection to the day? (I'm just thinking out loud....)

Those would be fine but I'm old fashioned, too, and like old terms so I would rather keep the originals. Just a sentimental old coot, I reckon.

I come from a decided nonreligious family and Thanksgiving wasn't god centered, although we'd pray before eating, primarily because relatives gathered and many of them were Christian and it was a religious holiday, for them. Other than the prayer (and we didn't say grace before meals as a rule) I never thought about the holiday as particularly religious. Being thankful for what we had was just a backdrop for a being a fortunate soul. The big deal was that it was an annual family reunion.

Shifting to Christmas, again, pretty secular. We talked about Santa, not Jesus. And Easter was about the Easter Bunny, not the resurection. My family said we were Christian but mom freely expressed doubts and we didn't go to church or anything like that. I don't think, at this point, that someone can define these holidays as personally religious because some people see it one way and others see it completely differently.

Those would be fine but I'm old fashioned, too, and like old terms so I would rather keep the originals. Just a sentimental old coot, I reckon.

yup but sometimes we need a old coot to remind us why we left the caves...winks

So long as the human mind and heart are capable of faith, I imagine the debate will continue on, long after we, and our children's children, are no longer a part of the debate.

To your journey, wherever it leads you.

So long as the human mind and heart are capable of faith, I imagine the debate will continue on, long after we, and our children's children, are no longer a part of the debate.

To your journey, wherever it leads you.

And that is pretty much the problem. People will continue killing each other over whose imaginary god has the bigger dick. As a species we must get past this affliction. We don't just accept that cancer and Alzheimer's will just always be there.. no, we work to eradicate them. Religion and superstition should be no different.

... should be no different.

And yet, despite so many attempts, in so many lands, religion endures.
Perhaps, as some suggest, this means mankind just doesn't get it.
Or perhaps, mankind does indeed get it.

I believe I was somewhat shortsighted earlier. Upon reflection, the grandchildren of our children's grandchildren, and beyond, will likely have similar conversations on who gets it and who doesn't.

To your journey, wherever it leads you. free will is sorta like that.

Let's start from the beginning of the thread. Sam Harris is a complete lightweight prettyboy agnostic that gets way too much airtime. I'd be embarrassed if I were in his camp.

What if there was a faith whose central tenants included embracing rationality and bringing people of all faiths(or no faith) together to make the world more prosperous? what would be the harm?

Ugh, that author is shockingly ignorant about the Koran. Fail. He's not doing atheists any favors posting this drivel.

I had a very well meaning neighbor once told me how she had lost weight and how much she feels so much better about herself and how Jesus did it.
I felt as if I got a sales pitch for a self help seminar, or got tackled by one of the weight watchers recruiters.
Please note she is a really sweet lady, and oh my, can she COOK.
I think it depends on the person, and the church they attend.
As to how "religious" they are as opposed Christian.

Yeah but is Thanksgiving/Christmas gathering for agnositics and others you mention the same as a family reunion...no religious reason for meeting?

After the holidays and your question.
I think for some as it was for me is the tie from the past with those(who passed away) who were religious and the memories they were a part of.

This whole thread is pointless because religion isn't going away anytime in our lifetimes. You all need to do as I have long done and learn how to live with it and make the best of it. We may not practice it or believe in the religion, but there is much good in it and we are all better for living our lives in the best way we can - which is mostly what religions teach - at least until someone perverts and sterilizes them.