Andy, in response to your first statement I would say that if you only respond with mindless drivel I wasted my time and the time of others that might read it.

As to your question I would say that should it become evident that someone else feathered their nest due to insider information on a city project I would have a big problem there also.

I would also add that I do have empathy with firefighters that have their vacations cancelled. It is not good city management to do it. I have no way of knowing if fire and law enforcement are understaffed as I have not heard both sides of the story. Like many others here I do find it unsavory that law enforcement and fire are trying to bring down improvement of the city as their bargaining chip in contract negotiations. Nothing would please me more to see the end of it.You define mindless drivel quite well.

Andy, in response to your first statement I would say that if you only respond with mindless drivel I wasted my time and the time of others that might read it.

ohhh geezzz.. I laughed...Andy...your full of mindless drivel!! :LolLolLol

I
am very glad he gave us back our money, to be used to improve our town, instead of him using our money, to improve his building.

Me too. Thank you, sir.:congrats:

Please don't attack poor Andy. It is apparent he lacks understanding of these basic issues. He appears to be business challenged. It's not fair to pick on him.

Please don't attack poor Andy. It is apparent he lacks understanding of these basic issues. He appears to be business challenged. It's not fair to pick on him.

What a condescending ass. Please don''t assume you know any more about the goings on of this citys government or their everyday dealings and business model than Andy. He has been dealing with them for years. For many years on a very personal level. He has worked with everyone from the mayor, city manager and council,to the business people who push their buttons behind the scenes. He tried to work with them in a fair and honest way, when that was his job, and got stonewalled almost every time. He has beaten them in arbitration or district court more times than they care to admit. So unless you can match his record of dedication and service to the city and it's citizens please keep your condescending remarks to a minimum. Your character is showing.

I think you were probably thinking you would prefer the company to relocate to Houston.

Touche!


However, I am less than enthusiastic about not calling B.S. on a statement being made that claims Devon is paying for the upgrades to the Myriad Gardens.

Basically what you are saying is you don't like TIFs. That's why I said that's a whole other issue. Otherwise, I think my stance has already been covered by Popsy and Patrick.


Tell me Patrick, how was it going to become "his" money. For the money to become his, did someone have to give it to him? Who would the money belong to if it was never to become his money?

I know better than to think that you don't really understand this. You just want us to spell it out for some reason.

1) It's true that there's a TIF on this project, just like elsewhere in this city and in hundreds of other cities.

2) It's true that companies building within a TIF zone would have that money be applied to their project and the infrastructure directly tied to it.

3) It's true that Nichols is the CEO of Devon Energy

4) It follows that as the CEO, this money was "his" to use as he saw fit, but he didn't keep it for "himself" by using it on his project, but rather gave it over to be used to revamp the entire business district as well as a public parkland.


If you have an issue with TIFs, bring it up in another thread or one of the ones we've had in the past. All money can be tracked back to taxpayers at some point, whether it be through taxes or things we buy. All this is semantics really, and it's started with me trying to clear up that the Myriad Gardens is NOT a MAPS 3 project in any way.

but Wambo, Andy seems not to understand what a TIF is nor how Devon's TIF being loaned ahead of time to OKC benefits the city (and Andy).

As for Devon's money - if Nichols does not build a skyscraper, then NO TIF - and therefore can keep his money. If he builds a skyscraper, he could have demanded the city give him a portion of the TIF for his skyscraper (as most developers in most cities do).

But Larry did not do this. In fact, Larry is insisting that the money go to improve DOWNTOWN and is even giving the money ahead of when it SHOULD be paid. In case you still don't understand, TIF is assessed based on present value of property. So in this case, assume Devon's property is worth close to zero (so zero property tax - for argument's sake; we know in reality it is worth more but probably not more than a few 10,000 in property tax)....

Now, in 2013 - when OK county does an assessment, the property will be worth $750M and therefore the TIF would collect the increase. BUT instead of waiting until 2013 to pay the TIF, DEVON is loaning the city the money NOW to do improvements in the TIF zone (hence the name, DEVON TIF). ...

This is a class act, and I wish more people 'donated' their tax money to the city before they even needed to pay it in the first place.

As for the city paying interest on the loan, isn't it only fair that this is the case? Can the city issue any bond or get any loan from a bank and not pay interest? Why would one expect a business who agrees to pay their future tax increment 3 years before it is even assessed as such - to give that money to the city without DEVON realizing the premium associated with it's current cash value (for all of those finance majors out there ... haha).

Have YOU ever prepaid ANY tax 3 years ahead of time based on projections that may or may not be correct? Have YOU ever given a bank or financial instrument YOUR MONEY that did not pay you Interest?

I don't think this is that hard to figure out - DEVON is a true asset to downtown OKC and there is NO PERSON in my opinion who could cry foul on anything Nichols is doing. He could have easily asked Houston to defer 20 years of tax and assist with building the skyscraper down there - and you know what - Houston would have done it too!

but Wambo, Andy seems not to understand what a TIF is nor how Devon's TIF being loaned ahead of time to OKC benefits the city (and Andy).

As for Devon's money - if Nichols does not build a skyscraper, then NO TIF - and therefore can keep his money. If he builds a skyscraper, he could have demanded the city give him a portion of the TIF for his skyscraper (as most developers in most cities do).

But Larry did not do this. In fact, Larry is insisting that the money go to improve DOWNTOWN and is even giving the money ahead of when it SHOULD be paid. In case you still don't understand, TIF is assessed based on present value of property. So in this case, assume Devon's property is worth close to zero (so zero property tax - for argument's sake; we know in reality it is worth more but probably not more than a few 10,000 in property tax)....

Now, in 2013 - when OK county does an assessment, the property will be worth $750M and therefore the TIF would collect the increase. BUT instead of waiting until 2013 to pay the TIF, DEVON is loaning the city the money NOW to do improvements in the TIF zone (hence the name, DEVON TIF). ...

This is a class act, and I wish more people 'donated' their tax money to the city before they even needed to pay it in the first place.

As for the city paying interest on the loan, isn't it only fair that this is the case? Can the city issue any bond or get any loan from a bank and not pay interest? Why would one expect a business who agrees to pay their future tax increment 3 years before it is even assessed as such - to give that money to the city without DEVON realizing the premium associated with it's current cash value (for all of those finance majors out there ... haha).

Have YOU ever prepaid ANY tax 3 years ahead of time based on projections that may or may not be correct? Have YOU ever given a bank or financial instrument YOUR MONEY that did not pay you Interest?

I don't think this is that hard to figure out - DEVON is a true asset to downtown OKC and there is NO PERSON in my opinion who could cry foul on anything Nichols is doing. He could have easily asked Houston to defer 20 years of tax and assist with building the skyscraper down there - and you know what - Houston would have done it too!

Hot Rod, according to you, I don't know what a TIF is. If thats the case, then gosh, how do you expect me to know how they work? Now since you appear to be an expert on the matter, I sure would appreciate if you would share with me your knowledge on the subject.

However before you do, or don't, which ever the case may be, go back a few post, I could have swore I mentioned something about Mr. Nichols fronting the City his money. If you would, please point out where I cried fowl about what he is doing. Can you show where I have made disparaging comments, or spoke of him, or Devon Energy in a derogatory mannor. If I have, I need to send him a letter, and tell him I'm sorry. Until then, I anxiously await my TIF 101 lesson.

Please don't attack poor Andy. It is apparent he lacks understanding of these basic issues. He appears to be business challenged. It's not fair to pick on him.If you've got the getters then attack all you want Fido. I've been picked on by smarter folks than you.

I could have swore I mentioned something about Mr. Nichols fronting the City his money.

You did.


Touche!

Don't ever type that again! No one really says that you know.

Touche!



Basically what you are saying is you don't like TIFs. That's why I said that's a whole other issue. Otherwise, I think my stance has already been covered by Popsy and Patrick.



I know better than to think that you don't really understand this. You just want us to spell it out for some reason.

1) It's true that there's a TIF on this project, just like elsewhere in this city and in hundreds of other cities.

2) It's true that companies building within a TIF zone would have that money be applied to their project and the infrastructure directly tied to it.

3) It's true that Nichols is the CEO of Devon Energy

4) It follows that as the CEO, this money was "his" to use as he saw fit, but he didn't keep it for "himself" by using it on his project, but rather gave it over to be used to revamp the entire business district as well as a public parkland.


If you have an issue with TIFs, bring it up in another thread or one of the ones we've had in the past. All money can be tracked back to taxpayers at some point, whether it be through taxes or things we buy. All this is semantics really, and it's started with me trying to clear up that the Myriad Gardens is NOT a MAPS 3 project in any way.

I agree with you. The renovation of the Myriad Gardens is not, and never has been a part of MAPS 3 If someone claimed otherwise I must have missed that statement. Where this all started with me had to do with your statement.

Maybe I read to much into your statement when you said, "the Myriad Gardens could be considered a front yard for Devon, but they are paying for the much needed upgrades".

There is no doubt, Mr. Nichols put his and/or Devons money up front to fund the M.G. upgrades. I consider that a very kind, and extreamly class act on his part. I have never said anything to the contrary.

My point was, and still is, when it is all said and done, he will have his money back with interest, as he should, and we the taxpayers will be the ultimate project funders. Seems pretty simple to me.

I think we are mostly on the same page on this. It's a matter of semantics, and I was oversimplifying.

Someone mentioned a "front lawn for Devon Tower", and I assumed they were referring to the Gardens. They may have been referring to the central park, but I don't see how that in any way can be criticized as just being a front lawn for a building that's three blocks away.

Don't ever type that again! No one really says that you know.

Whatever. Maybe not at your firestation, but I hear plenty say it. Don't be afraid of it because it's French.

:LolLolLol

I think we are mostly on the same page on this. It's a matter of semantics, and I was oversimplifying.

Someone mentioned a "front lawn for Devon Tower", and I assumed they were referring to the Gardens. They may have been referring to the central park, but I don't see how that in any way can be criticized as just being a front lawn for a building that's three blocks away.

We have both said our piece, and I agree that we are on the same page. I probably took what you said a little to literal. You were right about me not being a big fan of TIF, or any other form of corporate welfare. Just because something is done all over the country doesn't mean I accept it. It is kind of the same as some folks around here can't accept a person opposing this MAPS. I have no problem with Mr. Nichols like I said, he should be commended for his actions. I think we can move on.

Whatever. Maybe not at your firestation, but I hear plenty say it. Don't be afraid of it because it's French.

:LolLolLol

Please pay better attention. You may be the only person here who doesn't know who he works for.

I stopped paying attention to his WHAA-WHAA-WHAA a long time ago.

Whatever. Maybe not at your firestation, but I hear plenty say it. Don't be afraid of it because it's French.

Napoleon is dead. So, I doubt anyone is afraid of anything French nor have they been for years.