I think that a 40-50 story apartment building downtown would be a big hit.

Easy now, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

as long as each unit doesn't go for a quarter million...

amen.

I calculated that the Devon Tower will cost almost $400 a square foot to build, if the estimates given earlier were accurate. They don't need to make a profit on their space. I'm not sure how a 40 to 50 foot tower could possibly have living space that wouldn't cost a quarter million per unit, if the developer isn't a nonprofit organization.

I think Metro was right when he said the difference between OKC and some of the other cities with less expensive downtown or near downtown living space is that most of the less expensive housing in other cities is in older buildings, which we just don't have.

Construction is supposed to start October 1st - which means we're less than 30 days away. Are we still on target, or could this get pushed back?

lets just build a skyscraper so tall in downtown OKC so that when youre up at the top floor you can look immediately to your south and see all the better opportunities south of the Red River.

lets just build a skyscraper so tall in downtown OKC so that when youre up at the top floor you can look immediately to your south and see all the better opportunities south of the Red River.

Niceeee...

lets just build a skyscraper so tall in downtown OKC so that when youre up at the top floor you can look immediately to your south and see all the better opportunities south of the Red River.

Can we then build a mega waterslide off of that that goes all the way down to Wet N' Wild--wait, is that still there?!?

lets just build a skyscraper so tall in downtown OKC so that when youre up at the top floor you can look immediately to your south and see all the better opportunities south of the Red River.

Mireaux - the hiway is there and the bridge is open across the Red River. Good luck to you!

Mireaux - the hiway is there and the bridge is open across the Red River. Good luck to you! Mireaux, your welcome to Texas anytime. You are correct, there is so many opportunities that await in Texas and we would embrace you with our "can do" spirit!!

I calculated that the Devon Tower will cost almost $400 a square foot to build, if the estimates given earlier were accurate. They don't need to make a profit on their space. I'm not sure how a 40 to 50 foot tower could possibly have living space that wouldn't cost a quarter million per unit, if the developer isn't a nonprofit organization.

You really can't compare an elaborate corporate HQ to a residential tower.

Devon's figures include a massive atrium, big park, an auditorium, a huge parking garage, a health club, connecting to the Colcord and the Underground, etc., etc. It also includes furniture, window coverings, telecommunications, wiring, and many other things a developer wouldn't include in a residential building. Even the construction itself is very different with taller floors and suspending ceilings, and differences to the floors and HVAC systems.

Having said all that, a true high rise with great views and amenities might actually warrant some of the prices currently being charged by developments that offer neither.

lets just build a skyscraper so tall in downtown OKC so that when youre up at the top floor you can look immediately to your south and see all the better opportunities south of the Red River.

Opportunities that you have to wait more than a year and a half for? I take it your one of those Texas kiss-ass types that wants to make sure that increasing opportunity in Oklahoma doesn't happen.

Just remember your coveted Texas loves to tax the crap out of its own people who seem to be happy with paying those taxes.

Mireaux, your welcome to Texas anytime. You are correct, there is so many opportunities that await in Texas and we would embrace you with our "can do" spirit!!

Sorry, pal. I've done enough time in Texas to learn to appreciate Oklahoma more than when I moved. Oklahoma City has a "can do" spirit, but you Texas lovers just love to practice suppression for every positive goal Oklahoma City tries to accomplish.

So, let's get this thread back on topic. It's about the Devon Tower, not about Texas.

So, let's get this thread back on topic. It's about the Devon Tower, not about Texas.

Damn straight!

lets just build a skyscraper so tall in downtown OKC so that when youre up at the top floor you can look immediately to your south and see all the better opportunities south of the Red River.

There are plenty of opportunities in Texas is you dont have a popper work visa.

We'll be calling it "Mexas" in ten years.

:ou

Someone is finally getting downtown OKC and other buildings modeled in Google Earth. Check it out............

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk92/gandjdunlap/googleokc.jpg

That's cool, but how does it relate to Devon Tower when it's not in the model?

That pix just made downtown OKC look extremely ugly.

That pix just made downtown OKC look extremely ugly.

yeah it does!!! brown lanscape and missing buildings!:fighting2

That pix just made downtown OKC look extremely ugly.

I take it your not familiar with Google Earth

I take it your not familiar with Google Earth

Why is it Google Earth seems to always take pics of OKC and OK in general during the winter when everything is brown?

Why is it Google Earth seems to always take pics of OKC and OK in general during the winter when everything is brown?

It isn't Google Earth itself that is taking the images. If you look at the bottom of the Google Earth application it shows you all of the sources for that particular extent.

As for the winter, Aerial Photography companies take Aerial photos during the winter because of tree cover. Things stand out more during the winter than they would during the summer. Yes you have to deal with lower shadows in the winter, but when you have little tree cover so you can see homes and streets much better.

it just makes the city look so barren and unattractive

it just makes the city look so barren and unattractive

You're right, it doesn't look attractive at all, but those images were not taken to be put on Google Earth, they were used first for data collection (streams, roads, homes) and not meant for the daily viewer to find where they live.


Back on Topic: There is a press conference by COTPA today at 2 to discuss Parking Garage expansion.

I here they are using the lighting firm Arclight International to illuminate the exterior. I wonder what the lighting scheme will be.

rezoneOKC - Urban Infill and Development (http://rezoneokc.com/sites/index2.html)

Does anyone think that the new Devon Tower will spur future developments of high rises in downtown OKC? Are they needed? Or are we just DREAMING that we need additional condos/high-rise living/office space downtown? Do we really think it's needed and will be supported? I'm not trying to be negative...just realistic. Nobody more than ME would like to see the downtown skyline be FILLED with high rises...I'm just not sure the demand is there. BUT I HOPE IT IS!!!!!!

I don't know about FILLED, but I won't be surprised if we get a couple more mid rises.

When you say mid rises...do you mean something along the lines of the current Devon building? Like 15 stories or so...? Or are we talking more 20+??

mid-rise - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mid-rise)

I also won't be surprised if we get a new high-rise corporate tower, albeit not near as high as the new Devon Tower will be.

mid-rise - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mid-rise)

I also won't be surprised if we get a new high-rise corporate tower, albeit not near as high as the new Devon Tower will be.

Who'se gonna build it an fill it? There has to be some demand for space and they also have to have a developer who can get credit - not easy to do right now.

Who'se gonna build it an fill it? There has to be some demand for space and they also have to have a developer who can get credit - not easy to do right now.

If we can get the glut of Class C property off the market via residential conversion then that will go a long way towards getting some new towers constructred.

Who'se gonna build it an fill it? There has to be some demand for space and they also have to have a developer who can get credit - not easy to do right now. That is why OKC Chamber of Commerce needs to attract major HQ for OKC. It can be done! Diversification is the key. How about attracting major insurance companies, financial firms. I agree that OKC needs to grow it's home grown companies as well, but it does not hurt if 1 or 2 major Fortune 100 or 500 companies can base their operations here. Logistically, OKC is in the middle of the country with 3 major highways running through it so that helps.

The problem is getting people to realize it's a good place to be. They want to cosmo address, but then they have to pay the higher rates of those cities. We're still fighting the good fight on our image. Until we can conquer that, we're going to have to fight tooth and nail to get something like that here. And I would see having to make a lot of concessions to get it.

But think about it. How often do people build a new high-rise HQ in a new city?

Not to mention the 800-pound gorilla to the south can match or exceed and is willing to do so to veer the potential HQ mover to their state. Until OK eliminates corporate income taxes, we will have great trouble attracting that type of HQ. Every state in the union competes for them.

Now, with MAPSI and II, and if C2S is successful and can truly transform the land south of downtown to the river into an attractive, desireable area for people to want to live and play, the long-term effect will be to paint a far better face on the city for those looking to relocate their businesses and corporations. However, there is a large group of nay-sayers in this city that don't understand the concept of investment. They feel investment in their city is a waste of money and don't understand that we all benefit, at a minimum, indirectly from large scale redevelopments of our inner city. This pervasive attitude paints a bad image on the city.

We have Midfirst bank and American Fidelity insurance are two massive homegrown companies that could benefity from moving downtown. I have heard rumors that American Fidelity wants to move downtown.

And if Chesapeake keeps expanding they could push Midfirst off of their land (at the right price) and Midfirst could move back downtown.

I don't see any of this happening anytime soon, maybe in the next 20 years as downtown continues to develop.

Not to mention the 800-pound gorilla to the south can match or exceed and is willing to do so to veer the potential HQ mover to their state. Until OK eliminates corporate income taxes, we will have great trouble attracting that type of HQ. Every state in the union competes for them.
Texas has corporate income taxes, it is just called a "franchise tax", between that and the property taxes there isn't much difference between the two states tax burdens.

It's not the corporate tax that draws them to Texas. It is the 0 personal income tax rate that attracts highly paid execs to want to live in Texas. They will move the company there for personal reasons, not necessarily because it is best for the shareholders. Overall, the tax rates are comparable between OK and TX, but the burden is shifted to lower income property owners.

They all get their money, they just use different methods to skin the cat. My overall tax burden was lower in OKC than here in Austin. Property taxes here are ridiculous and going up more, plus there is no way we could ever sell our house for what Travis County has it appraised for...but that is a different discussion. My sisters house in OKC is about the same as ours and values are similar, her property taxes are 1/5th of what ours are. I suppose if you are wealthy and live frugally, then it could be a boon for you but most who make a lot of money pay a lot in property taxes. Some of the homes along the lakes here are paying into the high 5 figures every year for property taxes.

They get it, they all do, somehow, some way.

It's not the corporate tax that draws them to Texas. It is the 0 personal income tax rate that attracts highly paid execs to want to live in Texas. They will move the company there for personal reasons, not necessarily because it is best for the shareholders. Overall, the tax rates are comparable between OK and TX, but the burden is shifted to lower income property owners.

I am surprised that highly paid execs are willing to pay Texas' exuberant property taxes, that increase each year for various reasons, including the rising property value of a neighbor's home. One of the directors at my company in Houston has to take off a day each year to protest his rising property taxes in Harris County. Mine have increased 20% since 2006 on a stagnant home value.

Yes, Oklahoma has an income tax... that decreased its rate in the last several years. Sure, you'll pay more income taxes when you get a raise or a larger bonus, but many wealthy people know how to recover that money. In Texas, you are pwned by the county, the city, and the school district, all of which are on the property tax rolls.

Just found out some details concerning parking in the upcoming months.

Beginning October 1st, only tenants of the Oklahoma and Corporate towers with paid monthly parking will be able to park in the west parking garage (no more public hourly parking). In addition, the outside surface parking to the south and the access to/from Sheridan will be closed.

Beginning December 1st, the west garage will close for expansion through April 30th, 2010. All non-reserved parking will be moved to the Cox Convention Center's parking. On May 1st, the west parking garage will re-open to non-reserved monthly parking.

Reserved parking in the east garage will remain unchanged (for now).

It'll be exciting to see some more stuff happening again. They've already been working on the 2nd floor walkway between the east garage and the Oklahoma Tower.

Some new renderings from ojb.com...

South of front entrance.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/Devon001.jpg

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/Devon002.jpg

New Colcord patio.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/Devon003.jpg

View from the southwest.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/Devon004.jpg

I am surprised that highly paid execs are willing to pay Texas' exuberant property taxes, that increase each year for various reasons, including the rising property value of a neighbor's home. One of the directors at my company in Houston has to take off a day each year to protest his rising property taxes in Harris County. Mine have increased 20% since 2006 on a stagnant home value.

Yes, Oklahoma has an income tax... that decreased its rate in the last several years. Sure, you'll pay more income taxes when you get a raise or a larger bonus, but many wealthy people know how to recover that money. In Texas, you are pwned by the county, the city, and the school district, all of which are on the property tax rolls.

Texas no longer has a great advantage when it comes to personal taxes anymore so I have to disagree with the previous poster. The attraction Texas has now is the lack of a Corporate Income Tax and the financial incentives Texas governmental entities are willing to give for a new corporate facility. Texas has created a momentum for itself, it has a positive view from people around the country and execs are willing to live there.

OK has a great disadvantage both from the tax point of view and the general image point of view that execs have of it. Projects like the Devon Tower, MAPS 3, C2S and the Thunder will certainly help change that image. MAPS I and II and MAPS 4 Kids has given that image makeover a solid foundation.

The attraction Texas has now is the lack of a Corporate Income Tax and the financial incentives Texas governmental entities are willing to give for a new corporate facility.
Texas does have a corporate income tax structure, it is called the Texas Franchise Tax (http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/franchise/).

Here is some info from the FAQ (http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/franchise/faq_questions.html).


Account and Report Form Information
8. What is franchise tax?
The Texas franchise tax is a privilege tax imposed on each taxable entity formed or organized in Texas or doing business in Texas. (Updated 03/31/08)

Taxable Entities
Rule 3.581 (http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=34&pt=1&ch=3&rl=581)

1. Besides corporations and limited liability companies (LLCs), what other entities are now subject to the revised franchise tax?
The revised franchise tax applies to partnerships (general, limited and limited liability), corporations, LLCs, business trusts, professional associations, business associations, joint ventures and other legal entities. TTC 171.0002.

2. What entities are not subject to the revised franchise tax?
The revised franchise tax does not apply to:

* sole proprietorships (except the tax does apply to single member LLCs filing as a sole proprietor for federal income tax purposes);
* general partnerships directly and solely owned by natural persons (except the tax does apply to all limited liability partnerships);
* entities exempt under Subchapter B of Chapter 171; and
* passive entities (as defined under TTC 171.0003).


Franchise Tax = Corporate income tax for all intents and purposes. I know my former boss said the effective tax rate went up when it went into effect. The only ones that get any sort of abatement are the top 2% of firms who choose to relocate from outside the state, the rest of us get screwed because we were already here or not big enough to garner any attention...which just so happens that small to medium sized businesses employ more people in any state than the largest of the large.

The focus is always on the large out of state corporations, but they are nothing more than corporate whores looking for a cheap date until it is time to find a cheaper date. I think more should be done to focus on the businesses that create the bulk of the jobs.

James Burnett's office is also doing the redesign for the Myriad Gardens. I saw them today and they look awesome! They are a lot more functional than the Central Park design!

Correct, there is a link to the images in another thread.

Texas does have a corporate income tax structure, it is called the

Franchise Tax = Corporate income tax for all intents and purposes. I know my former boss said the effective tax rate went up when it went into effect. The only ones that get any sort of abatement are the top 2% of firms who choose to relocate from outside the state, the rest of us get screwed because we were already here or not big enough to garner any attention...which just so happens that small to medium sized businesses employ more people in any state than the largest of the large.

The focus is always on the large out of state corporations, but they are nothing more than corporate whores looking for a cheap date until it is time to find a cheaper date. I think more should be done to focus on the businesses that create the bulk of the jobs.

This is correct. There is a franchise tax but one must look at the essential situation when talking about Texas and its ability to attract businesses over OK.

Any large - especially publicly traded entity MUST look for tax advantages when dealing in a global economy. The franchise tax is routinely waived for businesses looking to enter Texas to establish a HQ or a large facility and it is routinely waived for a long period of time (10-30 years). Property taxes are also routinely waived and communities in the running for a HQ or large facility are very willing to pony up money for land, infrastructure, etc. Therefore, when attracting new businesses, Texas offers 0-income tax as well as some very powerful incentives.

Couple all of this will cities that offer air flight to most anywhere in the world, world class universities (as much as it pains me to say it) and plenty of available labor (skilled/unskilled/educated/uneducated) it the result is a very tough opponent for new business.

OK simply needs to do more to attract new business as well as keep the ones we have (Mercruiser!).

Has anyone read the business section of the Oklahoman today....page 4B continued title, "Devon: Tower to be finished in 2015"

The article continues with a september 30, 2015 date

What's up with that? a typo?

Has anyone read the business section of the Oklahoman today....page 4B continued title, "Devon: Tower to be finished in 2015"

The article continues with a september 30, 2015 date

What's up with that? a typo?

If that's true, it's probably to coincide with the new I-40 alignment, the new boulevard (if that ever gets built) and all the new street redesigns downtown. Hope not, though.

Steve, can you jump in here and explain?

By Steve Lackmeyer


Is it a ‘bad loan’?

...............O’Connor and Harris agreed Devon would be stuck with a "bad loan” — one that either would be paid off over the increment district’s 25-year lifespan or would not be fully recovered. O’Connor added that in such a scenario, however, the city would likely not be drawing down the entire $95 million.
O’Connor said the city plans to make quarterly draws, as needed, and will rely on cash proceeds from the district as much as possible. O’Connor expects the line of credit to be terminated with an application for traditional long-term financing on Sept. 30, 2015 — when the tower is set to be completed and added to property tax rolls.
Devon spokesman Chip Minty noted as an example that the $95 million is less than the company’s typical cost to drill a single well in the Gulf of Mexico.

"Our board of directors and executive management team are in the loop and have looked at this,” Harris said. "This is just an ancillary part of doing the project.”



Read more: NewsOK (http://newsok.com/devon-tenders-95m-to-oklahoma-city/article/3403554?custom_click=headlines_widget#ixzz0S47vZ02 T)

I think it just needs to be worded more clearly? I think the date refers more to the financial mumbo jumbo, and the aside about "when the tower is set to be completed..." really means, "the tower will have been completed and added to tax rolls by the time this date arrives"

Bad headline. Note, text said "and added to the tax rolls." It usually takes a year or two for everything to be wrapped up and fully valuated.

there is a link to the images in another thread.

Which thread?

I'd like to see the renderings.

Big commercial properties are not immediately added to the tax rolls. A three year delay is a bit long seems like its typically 24 months but Devon may have negotiated something with the city?

I think you're reading too much into 2015. It's simply the time at which all parties agree everything should be done and over with. They're not saying construction will still be going on in 2015 or even 2014. As I recall, employees are supposed to start moving in late 2012 or early 2013. But that doesn't mean the complex will be totally complete at that time.

I've come to the realization that people read too much into anything.

I understand the confusion - the headline wasn't great. And I'm not sure people realize that there isn't a "one day the tower is under construction and the next day it's filled with workers." When OPUBCO built it's current home at Britton and Broadway, employees were moved in waves with construction ongoing during the transition. As I recall, this transition lasted a few months - and it's only 12 stories.
Extrapolate that to 50 stories, and then add some lag time for getting the full amount valued and added to tax rolls... and add some cushion time for construction delays. And that's how you get to 2015 on this loan closing. Hope this helps.

I went downtown today and saw that Sheridan was blocked off, and there were concrete baracades and orange cones everwhere!is Sheridan gonna be blocked off the entire construction time?

Is Sheridan gonna be blocked off the entire construction time?

In some form, yes. Two way traffic may be established soon, but, as far as I've heard, both Sheridan and Hudson will be affected throughout the entire construction time frame.

I went downtown today and saw that Sheridan was blocked off, and there were concrete baracades and orange cones everwhere!is Sheridan gonna be blocked off the entire construction time?

It's closed for two weeks for installation of electrical lines.

It's closed for two weeks for installation of electrical lines.

^^^^ cool,thanx!