Don't think I even brought up the subject of budgets/costs, but was providing the factual info that showed what did happen.

IF they are built, substantially as promoted AND without going significantly over what we are told (not true of MAPS).

In regards to cost overruns....simply, they happen. With a project of this magnitude, I don't think it's easy to predict the "actual" price of these projects. Plus, you never really know for sure what the actual amount of sales taxes collected will be. It's all a guestimating game. Sure, MAPS 1 went over budget, but a 6 month extension to cover the cost overruns wasn't all that bad. You can't really blame the city for the projects costing a little more than anticipated. There's no science to predicting the costs....you don't know the true costs until the bidding process starts. Budgets, for the most part, are always guestimates. Take my church budget for example....we make a budget for the church at the beginning of every year. In the last 10 years, we've never actually made the budget, unfortunately. So, it happens with any budget, not just the city.


AGREE with the condition of the State Fair getting "worse and worse". Had hoped when Skip Wagner was replaced that the Fair would once again return to a 3 weekend run (even 4 weekends for the Centennial). But sadly, it hasn't. Bennett may have been involved with the decision to remove the monorail (he has been the Chairman of the Board of Directors since at least 2003, when O'Toole replaced Wagner).

Well just remember that the Oklahoma State Fair Grounds are more than just a 2 week annual fair...far more. In fact, they're used for horse shows and events more than they're used for the actual fair. You can't blame the condition of the annual fair on the facilities. And, improving the facilities won't improve the fair necessarily. Improving the facilities will improve the shows and events we can attract though. Having a large expo building will help us in attracting larger events and trade shows. In regards to the monorail, it simply wasn't functional anymore. There were two choices: tear it down and take it out of service, or build a new one. The costs of building a new one were quite large, and probably weren't worth it, considering it only would've been used for 2 weeks out of the year. I just don't see where the monorail is all that important. We need to be focusing on improving our ability to attract bigger and better events and horse shows throughout the year. That's the bigger focus of the actual grounds anyways.


Unfortunately, there isn't anything in the Ballot or Ordinance that says it will happen.

Well, I think public trust in the city govt. and public trust in the MAPS programs, passage of future bond issues, etc., depends upon the actual outcome of these programs. Although, yes, the ballot doesn't say it will happen, the peoples' votes dictate whether it will happen and keep city leaders accountable. The reason people have voted for subsequent MAPS programs is because MAPS 1 improved our city and produced everything it promised. All of the projects promised were completed. Had they not been completed, the chance of getting future projects passed would've been slim. Just look at the OKC Public Schools. They completely abused and misused the 1993 bond issue money. Thus, many bond issue proposals later were defeated. The public didn't trust the administration. It was only through the backing of MAPS that enough public support was able to be garnered to again try to invest money into the local school system.

Sure, city leaders could misuse MAPS 3 money. But, if they do, they'll have a tough road to climb to ever get a MAPS program passed again. And they're public reputation is at risk. If MAPS 3 passes and doesn't produce all it promises, most will call for Mick Cornett's head, and his reputation in the local community will forever be tarnished. I doubt Mick wants to leave a legacy like that.

Larry, I just think MAPS should be used to ADD to the Fairgrounds and not be used for normal operations and maintenance of it. It appears there would be some consolidation of Expo in Maps 3 but does that really amount to $60M? I think part of that money includes operations and maintenance; which I am opposed given the Fairgrounds has a revenue source (several actually).

Actually the $60 mill will go strictly to ADDING this large new Expo Building to replace aging smaller exhibit buildings. Won't be used for operations, etc. So, I guess in that sense, I'm not opposed.



the monorail was a great way to get an overview of the fairgrounds as a whole and decide where you then wanted to go. I think the sky tram is a joke. Very bad of Bennett or whoever decided to get away from a transit oriented people mover with history in favor of a one direction kiddie tram. And it probably used Maps money to get rid of the monorail, i bet.

No, actually MAPS money didn't go to removing the monorail. That came out of the fair's general budget. And, I'm not sure removing it was all too bad. We had two choices: remove it or spend millions on a new system. I'm not sure spending that kind of money is worth it for 2 weeks use out of the year.


Again, not opposed to Maps 3 because of the fairgrounds but saying the fairgrounds should be able to hold its own now or soon without having to have MAPS bail them out. It would be different if the hotel/motel tax didn't go to them.

I don't see it as bailing them out. It is adding this new Expo building, which will allow us to attract bigger and better trade shows.

... I'm not sure spending that kind of money is worth it for 2 weeks use out of the year. ...

Hi Patrick,

Curious, but how is that much different than the Ford Center improvements that are being made for the team that only uses it for 41 days a year? (The reduction in seats discussion)


... In regards to the monorail, it simply wasn't functional anymore. ...

Also, will have to research this now, but if memory serves, the monorial was fully functioning when they decided to tear it out...will report back after I see what I can dig up...

:-)

haven't found if it was functional or not but definitely sounds like it was expensive to maintain

Okla. State Fair officials gather market research on public’s opinion (Journal Record, 9/26/2003)

The monorail is so old, parts aren’t made for it anymore, Wagner said, and getting parts custom-made is expensive. “The monorail is not likely to last no matter what we do, regardless of the renovation,” Wagner said. One of the options being considered is to transform the line in such a way that fair-goers can get on and off at a number of locations, using the line to get around the fairgrounds in a type of car superior to that which is used now.

Let's cut through the size crap. I added up every sq foot of rentable space in the entire Cox Business Services Convention Center.

Room Dimensions Sq. Ft.
Meeting Room 1 46' X 27' 1,265
Meeting Room 2 46' X 27' 1,269
Meeting Room 3 46' X 26' 1,219
Meeting Rooms 4 46' X 40' 1,855
Meeting Rooms 5 46' X 29' 1,365
Meeting Rooms 6 26' x 25' 680
Meeting Rooms 7 24' X 30' 738
Meeting Rooms 8 25' X 53' 1,349
Meeting Rooms 9 49' X 32' 1,575
Meeting Rooms 10 49' X 33' 1,631
Meeting Rooms 11 49' X 33' 1,631
Meeting Rooms 12 49' x 32' 1,575
Meeting Rooms A 48' X 65' 3,278
Meeting Room B 51' X 65' 3,508
Meeting Room C 103' X 109' 11,216
Meeting Room D 51' X 65' 3,508
Meeting Room E 48' X 65' 3,278
Meeting Rooms 14 40' X 32' 1,283
Meeting Rooms 15 40' X 32' 1,283
Meeting Rooms 16 51' X 32' 1,639
Meeting Rooms 17 51' X 33' 1,697
Meeting Rooms 18 51' X 33' 1,680
Meeting Rooms 19 51' X 33' 1,680
Meeting Rooms 20 51' X 32' 1,593
Meeting Rooms 21 29' x 22' 672
Boardroom 41' x 23' 887
Arena 32,000

Grand Total: 85,354

That puts OKC right between the Hickory Metro Convention Center (84,023) and the Lexington Convention Center (86,494). The option before the OKC voters on the convention center is to compete for conventions, or not to compete.

Let's cut through the size crap. I added up every sq foot of rentable space in the entire Cox Business Services Convention Center.

Room Dimensions Sq. Ft.
Meeting Room 1 46' X 27' 1,265
Meeting Room 2 46' X 27' 1,269
Meeting Room 3 46' X 26' 1,219
Meeting Rooms 4 46' X 40' 1,855
Meeting Rooms 5 46' X 29' 1,365
Meeting Rooms 6 26' x 25' 680
Meeting Rooms 7 24' X 30' 738
Meeting Rooms 8 25' X 53' 1,349
Meeting Rooms 9 49' X 32' 1,575
Meeting Rooms 10 49' X 33' 1,631
Meeting Rooms 11 49' X 33' 1,631
Meeting Rooms 12 49' x 32' 1,575
Meeting Rooms A 48' X 65' 3,278
Meeting Room B 51' X 65' 3,508
Meeting Room C 103' X 109' 11,216
Meeting Room D 51' X 65' 3,508
Meeting Room E 48' X 65' 3,278
Meeting Rooms 14 40' X 32' 1,283
Meeting Rooms 15 40' X 32' 1,283
Meeting Rooms 16 51' X 32' 1,639
Meeting Rooms 17 51' X 33' 1,697
Meeting Rooms 18 51' X 33' 1,680
Meeting Rooms 19 51' X 33' 1,680
Meeting Rooms 20 51' X 32' 1,593
Meeting Rooms 21 29' x 22' 672
Boardroom 41' x 23' 887
Arena 32,000

Grand Total: 85,354

That puts OKC right between the Hickory Metro Convention Center (84,023) and the Lexington Convention Center (86,494). The option before the OKC voters on the convention center is to compete for conventions, or not to compete.

Way to "cut through the size crap". ;-) Ummm, minor detail but, you left out the Exhibit Halls, which add another 100,000 square feet.

Way to "cut through the size crap". ;-) Ummm, minor detail but, you left out the Exhibit Halls, which add another 100,000 square feet.

Crap! Your right. Good catch. Here are the details.

Exhibit Hall Dimensions Sq. Ft.
A 62' X 64' 4,032
B 53' X 64' 3,456
C 52' X 64' 3,328
D 53' X 64' 3,456
E 62' X 64' 4,032
1 125' X 199' 25,074
2 159' X 199' 31,400
3 125' X 199' 25,074
Exhibit Hall SubTotal 99,852
Other Space Alreedy Defined Subtotal 85,354

New (and final) grand total: 185,206 sq feet


Now I have to question the web site listing the size of each convention center. Did they only count meeting space for all convention centers or did they include exhibit space as well. Assuming they only got OKC wrong we now fall between the American Bank Center Convention Center in Corpus Christi (182,758) and the Prime F Osborne in Jacksonville, FL (187,480). Still 300,000 sq feet short of being competitive.

That is a very interesting catch indeed.

It would be nice if these web sites could be consistent, but still 185K is still too small for OKC to compete with peers in Denver, Indy, and Nashville. ... I think we are forced to do it (if you otherwise dont want to) just for the sake of OKC catching up to it's peer cities.

As for the Fairgrounds issue, again - I support MAPS 3 and encourage everyone to do the same. But I just find it rather contentious that this seemingly white elephant can't really do anything on its own.

And yes, I am no longer a full-time OKC resident; however I think the monorail should have been saved or retrofitted or rebuilt because it was unique and could/should have been/remained a draw for the fair (and could have been used other times, maybe even expanded to downtown OKC....).

I think MAPS would/could have been appropriate for that. Also, why was the replacement a one direction kiddie tram? why not build something much better that circles the entire fair park (with multiple stops). .....

I think if the fairgrounds improvements/upgrades really made it a destination - rather than just focusing on the horse-barn crowd; then probably it would find more support. Like I said, it gets at least two funding sources (fees/rental and Hotel-Motel %). That isn't peanuts and should make it sustainable since it gets used more than just 2 weeks in a year.

But I digress, Patrick. We still agree on almost everything. lol :)

... however I think the monorail should have been saved or retrofitted or rebuilt because it was unique and could/should have been/remained a draw for the fair (and could have been used other times, maybe even expanded to downtown OKC....).

I think MAPS would/could have been appropriate for that. ...

I agree, and as indicated in my prior post, it seems it was too expensive to maintain. Haven’t run across the article yet, but seem to recall the monorail was in the way of some of the expansion and was the final blow to it. As far a MAPS funding it, an article posted by Doug (Pre-MAPS vote) said that there was quite a bit of latitude with the Transportation element. Although I remember a downtown streetcar emphasis, the ballot said the could be looking at that or a monorail (which could have included a tie in with the fairgrounds on out to the Meridian hotel corridor) etc. But probably cost prohibitive and would have required federal funding (which we didn’t get), so we went with the rubber tired Trolleys instead.

Under the original 1993 MAPS proposal, the Transportation element was to cost $16M ($3M from OKC, balance from the Feds). Under MAPS 3, the Downtown Streetcar element is 8.125 times as much ($130M)

Las Vegas’s monorail was largely privately built/funded and its 4 mile length cost $88M/mile ($352M), opened in 2004. They had plans to expand it to Downtown Vegas ($400M for 2.3 miles) but federal funding fell through (where have we heard that before) and now planned expansion is to the airport (private funding again, the extension would be another 4 miles). The Vegas one is nice, runs ontime and is reasonable in price. Can pay per stop or get a 24 or 48 hour pass. It’s drawbacks are that it runs behind the properties on the Strip and there is a good long walk to get from the Monorail stop and the Strip (plus any return trips to the Monorail, mutilplied by any further stops). The advantage for me was one of the stops was the Hilton and instead of it being in front of the hotel, and having to walk a good distance thru the Casino, it dropped off right at the Star Trek: The Experience attraction.

Not a criticism at all, just something to take into consideration when designing any sort of fixed path system (is it where you are at and does it go where you want to go).

Handy comparison of various monorial’s cost is here:
How much does Monorail cost? (http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/HowMuch.html)

Las Vegas’s monorail was largely privately built/funded and its 4 mile length cost $88M/mile ($352M), opened in 2004. They had plans to expand it to Downtown Vegas ($400M for 2.3 miles) but federal funding fell through (where have we heard that before) and now planned expansion is to the airport (private funding again, the extension would be another 4 miles). The Vegas one is nice, runs ontime and is reasonable in price. Can pay per stop or get a 24 or 48 hour pass. It’s drawbacks are that it runs behind the properties on the Strip and there is a good long walk to get from the Monorail stop and the Strip (plus any return trips to the Monorail, mutilplied by any further stops). The advantage for me was one of the stops was the Hilton and instead of it being in front of the hotel, and having to walk a good distance thru the Casino, it dropped off right at the Star Trek: The Experience attraction.

Handy comparison of various monorial’s cost is here:
How much does Monorail cost? (http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/HowMuch.html)

You cannot "pay per stop". The base fare for the Vegas Monorail is $5. Yes, that's $5.00 for a one-way ticket, even if you travel only to the next stop. Yes, they do also have an all-day ticket for $13. But, as Larry noted the thing is so out-of-the-way from everything, I don't imagine many people buy full day tickets. That thing is a complete waste.

The trolley system needs to run at street level. We already have problem with people using the conncourse. We need to put people at street level. What would be nice is if the trolley had hop-on capability. That way you catch the trolley between stops just by waving your hand to the driver.

You cannot "pay per stop". The base fare for the Vegas Monorail is $5. Yes, that's $5.00 for a one-way ticket, even if you travel only to the next stop. Yes, they do also have an all-day ticket for $13. But, as Larry noted the thing is so out-of-the-way from everything, I don't imagine many people buy full day tickets. That thing is a complete waste.

Thats what I meant, sorry if it wasn't clear. You can get the 24 pass or pay $5 every time you get on.

What is sad are all of the cities a lot smaller than OKC that have convention centers with 3 or 4 times as much space.

These are particularly embarassing:

Birmingham-Jefferson Convention Complex AL - Birmingham 485,216
Mobile Convention Center AL - Mobile 386,154
Spokane Convention Center WA - Spokane 356,870
Hot Springs Convention Center AR - Hot Springs (not Little Rock) 314,175
Century II Performing Arts & Convention Center KS - Wichita 256,482
Shreveport Convention Center LA - Shreveport 245,438
Von Braun Center AL - Huntsville 201,804
Duluth Entertainment Convention Center MN - Duluth 169,343
Amarillo Civic Center TX - Amarillo 113,577
Lubbock Memorial Civic Center TX - Lubbock 95,338


The Cox is a joke. We gotta do better.

These are particularly embarassing:

Birmingham-Jefferson Convention Complex AL - Birmingham 485,216
Mobile Convention Center AL - Mobile 386,154
Spokane Convention Center WA - Spokane 356,870
Hot Springs Convention Center AR - Hot Springs (not Little Rock) 314,175
Century II Performing Arts & Convention Center KS - Wichita 256,482
Shreveport Convention Center LA - Shreveport 245,438
Von Braun Center AL - Huntsville 201,804
Duluth Entertainment Convention Center MN - Duluth 169,343
Amarillo Civic Center TX - Amarillo 113,577
Lubbock Memorial Civic Center TX - Lubbock 95,338


The Cox is a joke. We gotta do better.

Agree completely, question is with the new convention center, will we be?

As pointed out earlier by someone else, hard to tell what the numbers for other convention centers include (is it the total building or just sellable space?)

From the Chambers Convention Study, this is what we have with the Cox, what is proposed with the Phase 1 (MAPS 3) and some future expansion.

Total Sellable Space:
(Cox) 153,600 sf
(Phase 1) 285,000 sf
(Phase 2) 425,000 sf

Total Building Space
(Cox) 1,000,000 sf (again, horribly skewed by the arena)
(Phase 1) 570,000 sf
(Phase 2) 850,000 sf

When comparing against other centers, have to remember, this is the size of their CURRENT ones, not ones that will be around 6 to 10 years from now (Chamber's/Mayor's guesstimate), much less the Phase 2 numbers which would probably be an additional 10 years or so.

You guys are sooo serious,,!!! That's good..!!

You guys are sooo serious,,!!! That's good..!! I remember when my fathers company (Hunzicker Bros.) left bricktown.... it was in baaad shape. I am so proud that OKC is in this overhaul. I mean, It's great..I'am over-whelmed that bricktown and the OKC downtown area is liveable. If I am ever able to do so, I would live in "Downtown" OKC.