Thanks, and once again, Andy, those are powerful comments. Where are good investigative journalists (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/10/about-our-principal-bee-watcher.html) when you need them?Could they be biting their tongues, with their hands tied behind their back? I don't know.

Could they be biting their tongues, with their hands tied behind their back? I don't know.

If there were much of anything to it, you know the contra-publications like the Gazette would be more than willing to report. DOK is another issue, no offense in any way meant to our resident friend.

What part of my posts were mindless. Or was that just something colorful to type? Who have I insulted? Door to Door is a good Idea. Start on the NE side of Oklahoma City. That's were you need the most support. I'll go with you. I'll call Patrick and carry a stretcher. I'll pick you up at the second house, strap you down and help get you checked into OUHSC. They can't wait to hear how your park, convention center, and walking trails are going to benefit them. :LolLolLol

I doubt those folks on the NE side are too pro-police either considering some of the racism that's been displayed by the department in past years.

According to DougDawgs blog, the duration in which to collect the money and finish the proposal was to be seven years. I trust that is accurate. During that seven-year period, talks began on how to continue the progress by continuing the MAPS plan with a MAPS 3.

Duration of tax collection was 7 years, but masterplan for MAPS for Kids has always been through 2012.


My questions regarding MAPS 2 are. (1) Were all of the projects completed? (2) If not, did we collect enough money to complete them and have it in reserve? (3) If the answer to my second question is no, how will that be accomplished? Common sense, or at least history, would lead me to believe that had we not finished the plan for the reason of a shortfall in revenue or because of cost overruns, those issues would have been addressed as they were in MAPS 1.

Plan is ongoing and will be complete in 2012.


Here is my concern, and I hope my concern turns out to be unfounded. I am highly skeptical in the belief that all of MAPS 2 was, or is completed. If they have not been, my paranoia tells me lack of money is the reason. My conspiracy theory is this. MAPS 2 is not finished, there is no money to finish it, and the option to address those issues by extending the tax in reality is no longer an option because of the NBA teams wish to relocate to OKC. To extend MAPS 2 would have been a deathblow to MAPS 2.5, and there is no doubt, at least in my mind, the powers that be would allow that to happen.

If you've been to any of the MAPS for Kids meetings, or read any of the public MAPS for Kids reports, you'd know that MAPS for Kids is right on track and expected completion is 2012.

http://www.okc.gov/OCMAPS/ocmaps_library/OCMAPS%20ANNUAL%20RPT%202008.pdf

As of the end of 2008, not even half of the money collected was spent yet.


This brings me to my last issue of concern, which has to do with what I have been told regarding MAPS 2.5. This information came to me, second hand, from City Hall. To simply put it, (1) the Ford Center upgrades/ new Practice Facility project, MAPS 2.5, is going to fall short of completion based upon a number of various reasons. Additional NBA requirements being one of them. (2) This has not been brought to light by City leaders for fear of the negative impact it would have on MAPS 3. (3) MAPS 2.5 will be completed, at all cost, and the money will come from MAPS 3. (4) This can be accomplished if MAPS 3 is adopted by the vote of the Citizens due to the vague ballot language. I will hold judgment on this until there is proof this information is correct. I hope that proof does not come after the fact.

Highly doubt it. If it works like MAPS 1 did, items on the "wish list" just won't get all completed. Don't expect MAPS 3 money to be used for the Ford Center.

I don't know what will happen with MAPS3. I feel like RATIONAL citizens will prevail and after finally knowing what's going on with city services the will VOTE NO. Even those of us that want to support MAPS3, will change their mind THIS TIME. Until they see other needs addressed. Not wants. Needs.

All of your progress will be halted I guess. That's too bad. Citizens will be a alot safer because their already stretched city services won't be stretched anymore.

Funny you think MAPS 3 failing is going to lead to safety improving. simply put, sales tax goes back down to 7.375% and we're left with the same problem. Doesn't accomplish anything other than getting lower taxes, exactly what Mark Shannon is after.


That will be a good thing. This Mayor will address the city services or the next one will. I doubt you'll have as many City Counselmen and Women acting like little sheep and following so blindly in the future.

If the campaign you launch is anything like what I've seen here, you can expect a bad taste to be left in city hall's mouth for a long time, so you can kiss any increases in city services good bye.


There will be some eventually that will listen to reason and address real city issues. Then we can all move on.

In other words, "real" issues being those YOU feel are important.


Until then don't be so gutless. Get a mind of your own. Get an opinion of your own. You do that by trying to get all of the facts. Try to see the other points being made by ALL of those who don't agree with MAPS3. At least give another citizen a listen. Don't be insulting folks for no other reason than their opinion differs from yours.

Hmmmm...you've been coming right out and telling people to vote no. I don't see how that's giving people a mind of their own.


It's easy to insult on a computer. :poke: I don't think this is where we need to do that. I thought many of you were mindless, spineless, and complete idiots as you discredited everything that was told to you by folks who are actually providing services to this city.

I thought I was the evil sinner for calling people whiners and trolls, and this from you? Wha?


I could quote several completely irrational responses to real numbers given by folks. Not cut and paste 2004 statistics from a census or the DOJ.

Still waiting for better numbers. All I've heard from you is your own personal stories and experiences, not any numbers, except for 9 cops on the south side of OKC.


If I and those doing those jobs had no conscience, We could go to work and only answer one call at a time. Take the appropriate time needed for the call and ignore all those calls for help by citizens piling up. Let crime run rampant in this city due to understaffing. We can't do that. Instead we run call to call patching up things to stay available for the priority calls. You see. We're getting our checks. We are (if we live) going to retire. It's a duty to our citizens, conscience, fellow employee's, and this city that keeps us hammering away.

There are hardworking folks and lazy folks anywhere you go, including the police and dire depts.


The only thing on here that's a little annoying is reading sarcasm and insults from folks and then when the favor is returned you guys whine about it.

Whose calling who a whiner now?


I'd be a liar if I say I didn't laugh at that and get annoyed at the same time. Unfortunately for those that insult, I try to get upset at stuff typed or said, but it's not in my makeup. I definitely know for many here that's not the case. :LolLolLol

Who insults? "mindless, spineless, and complete idiots"


And VOTE NO:congrats:

Hmmm...you telling people how to vote? What happened to "Until then don't be so gutless. Get a mind of your own. Get an opinion of your own. "

Doug, I'm sorry, but no. I am not at liberty to reveal the identity of my source, or the identity of theirs. I completly understand where your difficulty lies. As I said, I will not pass judgement until this hearsay regarding 2.5 has been confirmed as the truth. I hope it can be truthfully denied. I would hope if these alegations are legitimate that the person at city hall would bring them to light. I know the person who passed these issues to me did not, and would not, fabricate a story like this. As for the concerns I have regarding MAPS (4KIDS) 2, those are mine alone

I think it's a little premature to say whether we're over or underbudget on MAPS 3 considering we're still collecting it. We might not be on target at this stage on the game, but we still have several months to go.

For MAPS for Kids, just read the city's financial reports on it. It's public record.

... My questions regarding MAPS 2 are. (1) Were all of the projects completed?

While the collection of the sales tax has ended, construction of the projects is going to be continuing for a few years, scheduled to end in 2012. The City’s website probably answers some of your question:

City of Oklahoma City | OCMAPS (http://www.okc.gov/ocmaps/index.html)

“Many of the largest construction projects are finished, while work continues at numerous schools throughout Oklahoma City. Over 70 new and renovated schools totaling $470 million in construction will be completed when the program draws to a close in 2012.”

“The OCMAPS school construction program includes more than 100 projects and is projected to cost approximately $470 million. It will take 10 years to complete all of the new buildings and renovations scheduled for 72 school sites”



(2) If not, did we collect enough money to complete them and have it in reserve?

This one is a little more difficult to answer definitively. There have been posters in these threads that said they had first hand knowledge of projects being cut back (like a gym not getting built if I remember correctly). But this is unverified information so has to be looked at closely. There seems to be a general lack of reporting of cost over-runs etc with MAPS 2 (as compared to MAPS, where there were lots of problems that were reported in the media). That may be because everything has been built on time and on budget (but given the MAPS history, that seems unlikely).

It may be that the Media doesn’t have the resources to devote to an indepth look. MAPS consisted of 9 projects. MAPS 2 included “Over 70 new and renovated schools” where 70% of the sales tax went. This doesn’t include the 30% that went to other school districts within the OKC city limits. “...funding to the 23 other public school districts that serve Oklahoma City resident students. By the conclusion of the program $153 million in city sales tax will have been expended for over 400 approved projects”. The sheer number of projects to investigate would be daunting.

MAPS for Kids money is often lumped together but consisted of 2 parts: the 7 year, one-cent sales tax and the $180M school bond issue (100% of this money went to OKC school district). The “More Info” sidebar of a recent Oklahoman article “Oklahoma City MAPS out big plans” stated $714M was raised.

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/oklahoma-city-maps-out-big-plans/article/3402004?custom_click=headlines_widget)


(3) If the answer to my second question is no, how will that be accomplished? Common sense, or at least history, would lead me to believe that had we not finished the plan for the reason of a shortfall in revenue or because of cost overruns, those issues would have been addressed as they were in MAPS 1.

Reportedly, the school district had already gone thru the $180M in the MAPS for Kids bond issue and successfully passed the $248.3M 2007 School Bond issue (covering many of the items that we were already paying for with MAPS for Kids money). So who knows?




This brings me to my last issue of concern, which has to do with what I have been told regarding MAPS 2.5. This information came to me, second hand, from City Hall. To simply put it, (1) the Ford Center upgrades/ new Practice Facility project, MAPS 2.5, is going to fall short of completion based upon a number of various reasons. Additional NBA requirements being one of them. (2) This has not been brought to light by City leaders for fear of the negative impact it would have on MAPS 3. (3) MAPS 2.5 will be completed, at all cost, and the money will come from MAPS 3. (4) This can be accomplished if MAPS 3 is adopted by the vote of the Citizens due to the vague ballot language. I will hold judgment on this until there is proof this information is correct. I hope that proof does not come after the fact.

Understand and share your concerns about the Ballot and Ordinance language as nothing in it prevents money raised by the tax from being used for other projects.

Reports of Ford Center Improvements and the Practice facility are a mixed bag

The Practice Facility: 3 months of the 15 month Ford tax was earmarked for the Practice Facility ($24M, more or less). The bids went came in and it is projected to cost just $10M.

Ford Center Improvements: We saved about $1.6M on the new scoreboard. Not everything is coming in below budget though, one article stated that some unspecified projects were costing almost half a million more.

Sales Tax not meeting projections: An article in June stated that “the tax approved by voters ... has produced $4.2 million below projections.” Subsequent articles have indicated that sales tax collections are still below projections, so that number has probably risen.

What does that mean if there is a significant funding gap?

Some highlights from this article (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4282224):

“If the gap between the expected cost and incoming revenue doesn’t improve, the city can start trimming projects or seek new modes of funding, such as tapping into a use tax fund of $3.1 million.”

“Dan Mahoney, the team’s spokesman, said the Thunder would not engage in a public discussion of the arena upgrades and would defer any comment on the funding situation to the city. He would not say whether the franchise would prefer to spend its own money on the upgrades rather than having the city make cuts.”

“If you’re talking about a million dollars, then we can look at tweaking it. If you’re looking at $10 million or $15 million, then you’re looking at not doing something the way it was proposed or not doing it at all,” Ryan said.”



Just as a side note, I would label them: MAPS (1.0), the 6 month “extension” as MAPS 1.5, the Ford/NBA tax as MAPS 1.75, MAPS 2(MAPS for Kids) and finally MAPS 3. Granted it isn’t in chronological order...LOL

Duration of tax collection was 7 years, but masterplan for MAPS for Kids has always been through 2012.



Plan is ongoing and will be complete in 2012.



If you've been to any of the MAPS for Kids meetings, or read any of the public MAPS for Kids reports, you'd know that MAPS for Kids is right on track and expected completion is 2012.

http://www.okc.gov/OCMAPS/ocmaps_library/OCMAPS%20ANNUAL%20RPT%202008.pdf

As of the end of 2008, not even half of the money collected was spent yet.



Highly doubt it. If it works like MAPS 1 did, items on the "wish list" just won't get all completed. Don't expect MAPS 3 money to be used for the Ford Center.

Thanks, you have answered my questions regarding MAPS 2. I guess I should have looked a little harder.

But I thought the MAPS 1 wish list did get completed. Wasn't that what the 6 month extension was for? I hope your right about MAPS 3. I don't expect MAPS 3 money to be used on the Ford Center. Is there, or do you know of some guarantee that says it won't? Other than blind faith.

I think it's a little premature to say whether we're over or underbudget on MAPS 3 considering we're still collecting it. We might not be on target at this stage on the game, but we still have several months to go.

For MAPS for Kids, just read the city's financial reports on it. It's public record. Don't you mean MAPS 2.5 (the F.C.)? Please keep in mind I'm not making that claim. That is unconfirmed hearsay given to me second hand. I am attempting to hear it from the original person as we speak.

Doug. I'm not sure if you're needing permission to block them. If so, granted. I've been paging through yours since the first day. If the one pertaining to me didn't say "IRON" in the beginning i'd gone right by it.

I just don't agree with moving on MAPS3 right now. I don't have the same opinion as most longtime posters here. I don't think that makes me a bad person.

I operate in MOSTLY in black and white. I leave alot of the gray up to politicians and a few bad lawyers.

You might be surprised how much I really support growth in this city at the right time. I'm not sure how I got on this site, but just as you've been disgusted by my posts. I've felt the same way about all the good ol'boy back patting in reference to MAPS3 I've had to muddle through on this site.

I guess it'd be like you posting on a site that was contrary to supporting MAPS3. I know if I supported MAPS3 I'd been welcomed with open arms.

If andy's got your ear then that's good. I doubt he'll make much progress as with all of your links your part of the blind leading the blind.

Doug. I'm not sure if you're needing permission to block them. If so, granted. I've been paging through yours since the first day. If the one pertaining to me didn't say "IRON" in the beginning i'd gone right by it.

I just don't agree with moving on MAPS3 right now. I don't have the same opinion as most longtime posters here. I don't think that makes me a bad person.

I operate in MOSTLY in black and white. I leave alot of the gray up to politicians and a few bad lawyers.

You might be surprised how much I really support growth in this city at the right time. I'm not sure how I got on this site, but just as you've been disgusted by my posts. I've felt the same way about all the good ol'boy back patting in reference to MAPS3 I've had to muddle through on this site.

I guess it'd be like you posting on a site that was contrary to supporting MAPS3. I know if I supported MAPS3 I'd been welcomed with open arms.

If andy's got your ear then that's good. I doubt he'll make much progress as with all of your links your part of the blind leading the blind.

Wow, you really have done an excellent job of driving a lot of supporters of your efforts away from you. I hope you're not a paid pol for the unions, because you fail. I will alert everyone in my email, facebook and other lists about the unions' actions against MAPS, and I will encourage everyone I know to vote down any future pay or manpower increases for the police and fire departments.

Congratulations on your eminent failure.

:LolLolLol

Sooner ru...I doubt I'd need the support of your 8-10 friends to garner support for Police, Fire, or City Services.

My mission was to give a few FACTS about the issues surrounding the city employee's failure to support MAPS3. Which I did. I'm not a politician and into the "sucking up" to get support. I prefer to use FACTS and then the voters can decide.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble. MAPS3 will not pass. You'll be sorely dissppointed and mark my words, City Services problems will eventually get addressed. The powers that be won't have any choice.

Doug..sorry it was pointed out to me that I missed a movie reference...you know like you used.

You and the Other MAPS3 supporters are like that obnoxious, blowhard Dan Aykroyd played in the movie the Great Outdoors. Pretending everything was fine toasting wine glasses in a smokers jacket meanwhile the truth is his life and finances (the city) was crumbling within. :poke:

...But I thought the MAPS 1 wish list did get completed. Wasn't that what the 6 month extension was for? I hope your right about MAPS 3. I don't expect MAPS 3 money to be used on the Ford Center. Is there, or do you know of some guarantee that says it won't? Other than blind faith.

To the City's credit all of the MAPS projects did get built. Because most of the previous projects were so far over budget, there was talk of scraping the Arena completely, that is where the 6 month "extension" came into play.

Since MAPS came in at 47.75% over what the voters were told, if all of the "wish list" items had been included, quick-n-dirty math indicates it most likely would have meant at least a 2.5 year "extension" to cover it.

It may be what you are defining as being a "wish list" item. Due to cost over runs, many MAPS projects were scaled back, some "wish list" items within the project were cut.

The definition of a capital project is so broad, just about anything could qualify including any Ford improvements. BUT, don't see it happening with it in particular just because of the timing issue.

The down side for MAPs 3 is that by its terms, whatever the city council wants to be possible will be possible. Sure there will be a resolution, and whatever is in it will be what's in it, unless of course another resolution comes along afterwards. I haven't seen anything thus far that says that can not happen.

This MAPs vote of 2009 requires a lot of blind faith contrasted to prior incarnations of MAPs. Most at this board seem fine with that. As a non-voting but minor tax contributor, I mostly am. Whether or not the majority of those who take time to vote will be ok sith it remains the open question.

"Wish List": When most of the MAPS 1 projects were put out for bid, for each project the items for bid were the basic project, and then if extra money was available in the budget, a "wish list" of projects was also available for bid. Most of those "wish list" projects included such things as higher end furnishings, fixtures, etc., more suites (for example, Ford Center ended up coming in underbudget, so more money was available to complete more suites than in the basic plan), supreme scoreboard vs basic scoreboard, supreme sound system vs basic sound system, etc. etc.

Still no Berkshire Report...

"Wish List": When most of the MAPS 1 projects were put out for bid, for each project the items for bid were the basic project, and then if extra money was available in the budget, a "wish list" of projects was also available for bid. Most of those "wish list" projects included such things as higher end furnishings, fixtures, etc., more suites (for example, Ford Center ended up coming in underbudget, so more money was available to complete more suites than in the basic plan), supreme scoreboard vs basic scoreboard, supreme sound system vs basic sound system, etc. etc.

Patrick, to clarify, are you saying that because the Ford was under budget (it wasn't) that "supreme scoreboard vs basic scoreboard, supreme sound system vs basic sound system, etc. etc." were included? Or are you just talking about the added number of Suites (which we ended up reducing under the latest improvements)? Thanks in advance.

I don't expect MAPS 3 money to be used on the Ford Center. Is there, or do you know of some guarantee that says it won't? Other than blind faith.

Is it really such a BIG DEAL if it does??? Do we want to half-ass it? It's still good for the city.

My mission was to give a few FACTS about the issues surrounding the city employee's failure to support MAPS3. Which I did. I'm not a politician and into the "sucking up" to get support. I prefer to use FACTS and then the voters can decide.

Please don't brush all City employees with the same stroke. I know several who strongly and vocally support MAPS 3. What I still do not understand is what P/F expect to GAIN from their initiatives? From its inception, MAPS was never intended to support SERVICES, but rather special capital improvement projects aimed at economic development. If this MAPS does not pass because of the unions' efforts, then what have P&F gained? Nothing. What has the City gained? Nothing.

P&F are only setting themselves up to promote a lose-lose proposition.

On another note, and I'm not going to go back and find the exact post, but someone made note that now is not the time to think forward because we are in an economic downturn. Unless there are absolutely no means to do this, this is a fallacy. From an economic and development standpoint, there is NO BETTER TIME than in an ecomomic downturn to do what you can to not only keep up with - but push yourself ahead of - the competition. Now more than ever is the perfect time to strike forward with future development plans that can lead to even greater tax revenues for the City. It's business 101, really.