OH and these issues have been raised and the media is starting to cover them. Go to okcissues.com. Google okc issues and take a look. Of the respective leaders from each Department have tried to bring this to the counsel and mayors attention. I don't mean Union Leaders either. I mean Police Chief and Fire Chief...but hey they are crazy too.

I don't expect to change your opinions or vote. Just give you a little different perspective. A real perspective. I'd like a park and enjoy bricktown, but We are on the brink of some big Safety problems here in our city. I don't think some of you will believe that until something tragic is happening to you or your family and services stretched will not be able to prevent something horrible from happening. I know none of the Policeman, Fireman or City Employee's want that to happen. They don't want more PAY..they want a little help doing their jobs effectively. [QUOTE/]

No one wants that to happen. So, give us the data. Has a study been done looking at per capita employement of police and fireman compared to other cities? Have studies been done looking at recommended per capita police and firemen relative to population density? How do we compare? Again, I don't think anyone opposed the concept of having adequate police and fire protection at all. We just need to know how bad the deficit is, if there is one.

[QUOTE=iron76hd;262110]I also KNOW that some of the current people in our government have PERSONAL interests in mind and not the welfare of their employees or citizens. Personal gain and recognition is what drives them. Unfortunately, they are doing it at the expense of City Workers Safety and the Citizens in General. That makes them more disgusting than others. The Police Officers in this City have already voted not to support MAPS3. I'm sure the other City Services will do the same. Vote NO for MAPS3. The mayor and counsel can do better.

Let's not make this about people's personal interests. Sometimes one person's personal interests may benefit many, even if by accident. What part of "the funding for MAPS will have no effect on funding for police and fire whether it is passed or not" do you not understand? It sounds like a, "You're not paying enough attention to me, so I'm going to try and take away your favorite toy" type attitude. MAPS should either be passed because it's good for the city and it's what people want, or people should vote against it because they don't want the improvements or they don't think it will be good for the city. It shouldn't be voted against to punish someone. That's called cutting off your nose to spite your face, and that type of attitude is not going to win friends and influence people where our police and firemen are concerned. These are two completely separate issues, and should be addressed as such.

Let me try again. The TAX for MAPS3 should be spent on adding adequate City Workers. NOT for a Park etc....

They are different issues. One is much more vital for this city than the other. One needs immediate attention. The other is a luxury at this time and not a necessity. But both have to do with MONEY apparently so they are exactly two different issues.

The Policeman and Fireman shouldn't have to beg for support from counsel members for adeqate staffing, but they have for several years.

A responsible counsel would never put this to a vote of the people. If they want to do that. Let's be really responsilbe and admit that there is a shortage of personnel. Let them give the numbers. Give the study that was conducted. Admit the shortages in each of the City Services and then in the next breath say...Vote yes for MAPS3.

What's sad is all the respective leaders wanted by addressing the counsel is for them to add something in MAPS3 for City Services. Then put that to a vote of the people. Why wouldn't they do that? I've been told less than one tenth of a cent would have been plenty....They IGNORED their city employee's....

Let the people have the real facts. Let the leaders of each service come right after the Mayor in his MAPS3 conference and tell the state of their respective department. Shortage of manpower etc...

That's being responsible. Then let's see what the citizens really think of MAPS3. Informed citizens won't vote for MAPS3. not a chance.

The Mayor stated the Police and Fire Unions are mad about not getting a raise this year, and thats their reason for speaking out against Maps 3. Whether the employees actions are right, or wrong, or whether you agree, or disagree, with their actions, that doesn't give the Mayor the right to stand in front of a news camera and say things that are absolutly not true. But thats what he did, and thats pathetic.

The Unions agreed to forgo a raise. The Firefighters were only wanting some assurances that their vacations would not continue to be cancelled after they had been approved, planned and paid for. The City said no. Their response was, no raise, and if we approve your vacation request, and later decide to cancell your vaction you've planned and paid for, we can, and we will, and if you don't like it, to bad. Sorry your going to lose that $2,000.00 you had to pay down to book your trip. To bad the Mayor can't tell the truth.

Maybe the Mayor and Council got some small raise (but nothing I am aware of, if anyone has an article or link...). There was an election not too long ago where they were trying to double(??) the pay for the Council persons and Mayor. That measure was defeated.

Not taking either side on this one...There was a recent Oklahoman article that mentioned in the Firefighters contract, they are guaranteed a certain amount of overtime pay (if worked or not) and get paid overtime pay while on vacation. Think the article said the reason those items were agreed to in the contract were to offset the staffing shortages that the City acknowledged existed. Chart showed in the last fiscal year, more than $7.3M was paid in overtime to firefighters and another $5.2M was paid to police ( a total 87% of City overtime paid).

Here are some intersting highlights from the “Overtime a Hot Issue” linked pic at:

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/burningthroughmoney)

“The firefighters’ frequent time-and-a-half overtime payments are legally required by federal labor laws and the annual collective bargaining agreement between the city and firefighter union.

As a result, nearly every city firefighter collected overtime between July 2008 and July 2009. Firefighters received overtime pay regardless of whether they worked more than scheduled because their union contract guarantees regularly scheduled overtime.

Because overtime hours are part of their regular schedule, firefighters often collect overtime while on vacation or personal leave.”

and this...

Copeland said the union is willing to discuss changing firefighter schedules to cut down on overtime — particularly if the city hires more firefighters as a result of the new schedule.

But hiring more firefighters would likely cost the city more money than current overtime payments, Marrs said.

then this....

Last month, the city council and the fire union each rejected the other’s final offer for a new contract. The union wants raises and new hires the city says it can’t afford.

Fireman are paid for staffing shortages? Maybe so. From what i understand this is part of their contract.

What about the part where the City recently denied their contrat and an arbitrator said the city's offer was unfair and threw out their offer and accepted fire's offer.

A raise in which Fireman last week said they would give back if the city would just hire and fill fire vacancies.

As for Policeman. So their overtime shouldn't be paid. Is that a problem? When the have to stay over their regular 10 HOUR shift they should work for free? i don't know of any other police department that does that in the country. I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the "fair labor act".

Yes police and fire negotiate a contract every year. PAY is not the issue. MANPOWER IS

I really don't understand this police and fire thing. Do they think if MAPS is voted down the sales tax just get reassigned?

It simply goes away and we still have the same problem. As a citizen of okc I'm slightly offended our public safety enitities are trying to use MAPS to get what they want when even they know they have nothing to do with each other.

If they help maps get defeated do they actually think they will be helping their cause?

It appears Nikon also wants a new road repaved to her suburban driveway every 2 years. Folks, quit living in the suburbs if you want nicer roads. We have the 3rd largest (land area wise) city in the U.S. and one of the about 47th in population. Roads don't pay for themselves and we don't have enough people living here to pay for them. The suburbs have been ever expanding and NW and North OKC have been getting the newest roads for the last few decades. To say N and NW OKC doesn't get new roads is laughable at best, they are the newest roads in OKC. The INNER CITY has been neglected for decades and rightfully it should be fixed first, more people live here, it's the heart and soul of the city, and of course in the worst shape. AND as others said, we surely wouldn't want the facts to get in the way, since over a BILLION has been set aside for road construction and repaving all over the metro.

Metro, could you please describe the location of the line that differentiates "inner city" from "outer city"? I have a hard time believing there are more people in what I think of as "inner city" than the entirety of the REST of Oklahoma City...

Also, please don't blame what you call the suburbs for wanting their streets maintained. Those of use who live in the northern/southern areas aren't the ones who annexed the land decades ago. I realize the "inner city" hasn't received the treatment its needed, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the potholes everywhere else.

Iron, you are not going to win any support for the police and fire departments by opposing MAPS 3. All it will do, as is clear from the responses to you in the threads you have been posting in, is lose support. You have already had one poster declare his opposition, are you aiming for more?

I really don't understand this police and fire thing. Do they think if MAPS is voted down the sales tax just get reassigned?

It simply goes away and we still have the same problem. As a citizen of okc I'm slightly offended our public safety enitities are trying to use MAPS to get what they want when even they know they have nothing to do with each other.

If they help maps get defeated do they actually think they will be helping their cause?

Yes, they do. They're trying to point out to a media that won't listen to them that along with all this wonderful new growth and rebirth of the downtown area that MAPS 3 is supposed to rain down upon us, there is NO allocation for a corresponding expansion of fire and police protection.

Considering that they otherwise have no stake in opposing MAPS, I have to figure they take their position (and their opposition) pretty seriously, and as such it is not a capricious or frivolous stand.

Yes, they do. They're trying to point out to a media that won't listen to them that along with all this wonderful new growth and rebirth of the downtown area that MAPS 3 is supposed to rain down upon us, there is NO allocation for a corresponding expansion of fire and police protection.

Considering that they otherwise have no stake in opposing MAPS, I have to figure they take their position (and their opposition) pretty seriously, and as such it is not a capricious or frivolous stand.

So how does defeating MAPS 3 get them anywhere closer to what they want?

Metro, could you please describe the location of the line that differentiates "inner city" from "outer city"? I have a hard time believing there are more people in what I think of as "inner city" than the entirety of the REST of Oklahoma City...

Also, please don't blame what you call the suburbs for wanting their streets maintained. Those of use who live in the northern/southern areas aren't the ones who annexed the land decades ago. I realize the "inner city" hasn't received the treatment its needed, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the potholes everywhere else.

You're a couple weeks late after the party ended, but I'll be glad to answer your question. The "old" OKC, or "inner city" is typically defined as NW 63rd to the North, Portland to the West (although I'd say MacArthur), SW 59th to the south and about I-35 to the east. As you mentioned, the "inner city" or especially within the I-44 west to SW 15th South, to NW 23rd north and I-240 east area has been seriously neglected for decades. The problem I have is people wanting to live in OKC limits, out by Deer Creek around 178th or 220th or on Morgan Rd. or Sara Rd. west and OKC having to provide sewer, utilities, roads, and other infrastructure because developers are building tons of new subdivisions, even with quarter miles or even square miles of unused land in between, when there are plenty of infill plots available south of Memorial Rd.

So how does defeating MAPS 3 get them anywhere closer to what they want?

I agree. Perhaps the police and fire issue needs its own thread.

The problem I have is people wanting to live in OKC limits, out by Deer Creek around 178th or 220th or on Morgan Rd. or Sara Rd. west and OKC having to provide sewer, utilities, roads, and other infrastructure because developers are building tons of new subdivisions, even with quarter miles or even square miles of unused land in between, when there are plenty of infill plots available south of Memorial Rd.[/QUOTE]

Metro

As I have pointed out to you before, if the City were to deannex these areas they would not "have" to offer the services. A City leader, such as yourself, should start the deannexation drive since it seems to irk you so much. If people did not want to live in those areas, the developers would not develop them. It is not that they want to live in OKC that they buy, it is that they want to live in that area. I live south of Memorial and do not have a dog in this fight, but I do believe in fair play and if the City wants to keep this land within the City limits they have an obligation to provide City services.

Yes, I'm well aware of that, long before your post. I'm not a city leader, just a very active concerned citizen in the community, particularly downtown. I have talked to several city leaders about deannexation, even Mick, and that's the last thing on their mind. I suppose it IS worth another shot, if we can collectively get together and get a largescale effort going. If anyone wants to donate some money to the cause, I'll gladly set up a website and get the ball rolling. Sorry, but I'm maxed out right now on my personal course to become debt free.

I hope that was a joke. We spent 56 million on the above. We added ZERO people to use the above listed equipment.

So when does adding people end? Is our city really experiencing enough growth to warrant massive additions of city workers? Not like we're experiencing a population boom here.


However, my favorite was the 12 million spent on a library.

You have a problem spending money on something educational?


The Prop 11!!!! thats the one 75 MILLION!!! We're giving away!!!! Economic Developement!!

Most cities have similar funds to put up incentives to attract jobs.


Patrick. you aren't quite as up to speed as you think. Did you say in 2000? over 9 years in reference to the cars? Are you aware that a police car in our pool system can reach over 100,000 miles in about 2-3years. So if we wait 9 years...mmm you do the math.

The bond issue was passed in 2000. The cars weren't purchased until long after that. If we can't get more than 2-3 years out of a cruiser, we need to shut down our police dept and forget about it.


You can buy all the fancy technology you want. Desks, Buildings, cars, trucks etc..but with limited manpower to operate the stuff what good is it??? that's the point!!

You're the one that's claiming manpower is limited. I think you'd say that no matter how many officers/firefighters we had. In your opinion we should keep adding people every year, even though our population is not growing significantly.


I can imagine new equipment is greatly appreciated, but additional manpower is and has been the need for several years.

Why? It's not like our city is growing a whole lot.


PEOPLE are what's needed. P-E-O-P-L-E!!!! Warm Bodies!!!! More Policeman. More Fireman. More City Workers.

When does it stop? Maybe the current bodies we have now need to be more efficient before we consider hiring more bodies. It actually makes more econimic sense not to hire more people and just pay overtime......health care, benefits packages, etc. are expensive, much more expensive than overtime.


Voting NO for maps3 won't automatically fix any of the above problems. But get serious. $777 million dollars for MAPS is should be spent on some of the other problems FIRST. That's the point!!

The reality though is that if MAPS 3 fails, you still won't get any of the above. We both lose. It isn't like that $777 mill gets reassigned for hiring more officers and firefighters.


Is anyone aware that a recent study was done on just the Police Department. A study suggested by the Council. A study done by an independent company. The study suggested the current Police Department is understaffed by at least 250 to 500 officers. That's 250 minimum!! Try doing what ever job you do effectively short 250 people. The study that is being IGNORED by the Mayor, City Manager, and City Counsel. Actually Patrick I'm sure you are aware of the study you seem up to speed on what's going on.

Again, this has nothing to do with MAPS. If you want this addressed, the city general revenue budget needs to be changed. Voting yes or no on MAPS won't affect the general budget and how money is spent in this city. Voting no on MAPS won't send more money to hire more police officers or firefighters. The problem remains regardless of if MAPS passes or fails.


And lastly, Make NO MISTAKE. This is NOT about raises like the Mayor eluded to tonight on the News. That seemed funny the Mayor and counsel got themselves a little pay raise recently but I didn't think that was a problem. I heard about the Mayors new job also. The one with a company that stands to benefit quite nicely with the new MAPS3.

And exactly how will MAPS 3 help him in his position at an advertising firm?



I don't expect to change your opinions or vote. Just give you a little different perspective. A real perspective. I'd like a park and enjoy bricktown, but We are on the brink of some big Safety problems here in our city. I don't think some of you will believe that until something tragic is happening to you or your family and services stretched will not be able to prevent something horrible from happening. I know none of the Policeman, Fireman or City Employee's want that to happen. They don't want more PAY..they want a little help doing their jobs effectively.

What you don't seem to understand is that MAPS has nothing to do with the fate of city employees. The two aren't in any way related. And really, like I said, cheaper to pay ore overtime than hire more people and have to pay mroe benefits.


I also KNOW that some of the current people in our government have PERSONAL interests in mind and not the welfare of their employees or citizens. Personal gain and recognition is what drives them.

That's your opinion. And, I don't see the problem in personal gain to some extent. Afterall, isn't one of the main reasons people run for the lowly paid high effort job of mayor for personal gain anyways, in addition to public service of course. I bet if there wasn't a chance for personal gain very few people would take the office.


Unfortunately, they are doing it at the expense of City Workers Safety and the Citizens in General. That makes them more disgusting than others. The Police Officers in this City have already voted not to support MAPS3. I'm sure the other City Services will do the same. Vote NO for MAPS3. The mayor and counsel can do better.

Vote No for MAPS 3, so our quality of life can suck, while our numbers of officers and firefighters still continue to dwindle or remain stagnant, and nothing gets done. That's right, stick with status quo. I hear ya! Let's not improve our city. Let's keep living in a 3rd tier city.


Soonerguru...I was right..just like I knew I was.

A little narcissistic are we?


I know what we can do. DE ANEX all of downtown.

Absurd.



I also agree with you Patrick. I feel VERY confident their will be a few different faces on the Counsel soon. It's a Counselman or Counselwomans obligation to KNOW the state of their city's services. And yes to vote their constituent's desires, but also do what's best ethically for the entire city. Let's get real. Citizens don't know what's going on exactly with our city's services. A counselman sits in those private meetings, not citizens. So citizens are blind to what's really going on. They depend on that Counselman to make the right vote. SHAME on that city counsel. They were in the meetings that told them how short in manpower each agency is and has been.

Ummmm....that's called a representative form of government.


ZERO backbone. A bunch of sheep following a leader that's a wolf in sheeps clothing. At least one member had the nerve to see the writing on the wall and try to do something better for the city. It's funny that the counselman who's part of Oklahoma City has been neglected the most and who has the majority of his constituent's against all MAPS voted yes. He may be the worst of them all. He apparently didn't look at any poll numbers about his own ward before voting. Good job SKIP!!!! I can promise you're a gonner!!!! LOL

Ummmm, your beloved conucilman is against all tax increases, even those that would add more fire fighters or police officers.

Let me try again. The TAX for MAPS3 should be spent on adding adequate City Workers. NOT for a Park etc....

Problem is that's not going to happen. Salaries for city service workers don't come out of MAPS3 type proposals. I REPEAT: Comes out of the general budget.


They are different issues. One is much more vital for this city than the other. One needs immediate attention. The other is a luxury at this time and not a necessity. But both have to do with MONEY apparently so they are exactly two different issues.

Involve two completely different funding methods. And MAPS 1 was a luxury as well...so were you against it as well? If so, you're in the minority for sure.


The Policeman and Fireman shouldn't have to beg for support from counsel members for adeqate staffing, but they have for several years.

So does the federal government. We need more doctors at the VA. What do you think about raising federal taxes to pay for more healthcare workers at the VA? Huh? We're understaffed. Hospitals are in trouble...you in favor of raising taxes for socialized medicine? Post office is understaffed....you in favor of a postal bailout?


A responsible counsel would never put this to a vote of the people.

A responsible council wouldn't put to waste the momentum we've built with previous MAPS.


Let's be really responsilbe and admit that there is a shortage of personnel.

Again, it's a budget issue....has nothing to do with MAPS taxes.



What's sad is all the respective leaders wanted by addressing the counsel is for them to add something in MAPS3 for City Services. Then put that to a vote of the people. Why wouldn't they do that? I've been told less than one tenth of a cent would have been plenty....They IGNORED their city employee's....

The MAPS Program was never designed to hire more city employees. It's called Metropolitan Area Projects, not Metropolitan Hire More City Employees.


Let the people have the real facts. Let the leaders of each service come right after the Mayor in his MAPS3 conference and tell the state of their respective department. Shortage of manpower etc...

Again, not a MAPS issue. If you want funding changed argue for changes in the city budget.


That's being responsible. Then let's see what the citizens really think of MAPS3. Informed citizens won't vote for MAPS3. not a chance.

Respectable polls show it passing, mainly because of the positive impact of the 2 prior MAPS projects, which I guess you opposed. If you don't like what MAPS 1 gave us, then get the heck out of town and move somewhere else.

The Mayor stated the Police and Fire Unions are mad about not getting a raise this year, and thats their reason for speaking out against Maps 3. Whether the employees actions are right, or wrong, or whether you agree, or disagree, with their actions, that doesn't give the Mayor the right to stand in front of a news camera and say things that are absolutly not true. But thats what he did, and thats pathetic.

The Unions agreed to forgo a raise. The Firefighters were only wanting some assurances that their vacations would not continue to be cancelled after they had been approved, planned and paid for. The City said no. Their response was, no raise, and if we approve your vacation request, and later decide to cancell your vaction you've planned and paid for, we can, and we will, and if you don't like it, to bad. Sorry your going to lose that $2,000.00 you had to pay down to book your trip. To bad the Mayor can't tell the truth.

Sounds pretty childish to me, almost like the people on the east side that threatened to vote down the Ford Center improvements because Dr. Porter was fired. I don't get my way, I punish you and we all lose. Sounds like a typical 8 year old mentality.

I really don't understand this police and fire thing. Do they think if MAPS is voted down the sales tax just get reassigned?

It simply goes away and we still have the same problem. As a citizen of okc I'm slightly offended our public safety enitities are trying to use MAPS to get what they want when even they know they have nothing to do with each other.

If they help maps get defeated do they actually think they will be helping their cause?


Exactly.

Yes, they do. They're trying to point out to a media that won't listen to them that along with all this wonderful new growth and rebirth of the downtown area that MAPS 3 is supposed to rain down upon us, there is NO allocation for a corresponding expansion of fire and police protection.

This is an area the police and fire are already patrolling. Not like it's a new part of town. Why the need for more people?


Considering that they otherwise have no stake in opposing MAPS, I have to figure they take their position (and their opposition) pretty seriously, and as such it is not a capricious or frivolous stand.

They have a stake. By opposing MAPS, they can kiss any chances of getting the city counsel to listen to any increases in funding goodbye.

Patrick.

I got it. It doesn't matter what facts say. You think one doesn't have anything to do with the other. I've tried to explain how they do relate.

This city's citizens shouldn't VOTE to spend one more dime on ANYTHING until we've addressed the major shortage of support. In every city service. Fire, Police and City Workers in General.

You should tune in to 1000am. 5 to 7 Mark Shannon is at least getting some facts out there. You can also google. "okc issues podcast" and listen to interviews from police and fire leaders. A study that was approved by counsel to evaluate the Police Department will be available to Mark Shannon today or tomorrow. A study that every citizen can read about the true state of our police department staffing levels. it's called the "Berkshire Study". A study that was so hard for the Mayor to swallow that he left the meeting early never to return.

A study that says we are short at min 200 uniformed officers may be need as many as 500 to meet CURRENT city needs. A study that says our Gang unit of 12 needs to really be approximately 40 to combat the CURRENT Gang problem.

Policeman and Fireman have alot of pride in their city. You haven't heard about the staffing problems because they believe in supporting our counsel and Mayor. The Mayor has promised to address these issues every year and we've waited. and waited..and waited. But now not only has he failed to listen and now he's pushed maps3 forward. They just can't wait any longer. They've grumbled within and have kept this information from citizens, trying to protect the Mayor and Counsel. Now they feel they have no let citizens know. Not only is the saftey of each Policeman and Fireman been a problem for several years because of understaffing, but now it's becoming a real problem for our citizens. And NOW they are going to know it. And they can at least make an informed VOTE.

In reference to maps1. Do your home work. I was in the very very slight majority and did vote YES, but maps1 one barely passed. I do want growth and would be happy to vote YES for maps3 AFTER we address ALL of our city services.

So VOTE NO. I'll be on the other thread that's about police and fire.

Sounds pretty childish to me, almost like the people on the east side that threatened to vote down the Ford Center improvements because Dr. Porter was fired. I don't get my way, I punish you and we all lose. Sounds like a typical 8 year old mentality.So what your saying is you condemn the actions of the Police Officers and Firefighters, and condone the Mayor telling lies. Great code of ethics you have there Doc.

Andy, with all due respect, you have stated that you have a disagreement with the city. You have not actually explained where any lies were told. What you have said (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you wanted raises... that didn't happen due to budget constraints. You wanted assurances on vacations, that didn't happen either due to budget constraints.

For the mayor to have lied, he'd have to be untruthful. From the sound of things, you didn't get what you want, now you want to hold the city hostage until you do. All the while, you're impairing the city's actual ability to get you what you want by impairing its ability to expand its tax base through development.

Andy, with all due respect, you have stated that you have a disagreement with the city. You have not actually explained where any lies were told. What you have said (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you wanted raises... that didn't happen due to budget constraints. You wanted assurances on vacations, that didn't happen either due to budget constraints.

For the mayor to have lied, he'd have to be untruthful. From the sound of things, you didn't get what you want, now you want to hold the city hostage until you do. All the while, you're impairing the city's actual ability to get you what you want by impairing its ability to expand its tax base through development.

Mid, to begin with I'm retired from the OCFD, so this has nothing to do with my disagreeing with the City because I did not get what I wanted. So, not only have I not ask for a raise, I will say this again, the Firefighters didn't, and don't want a raise. Now I don't know what else I can say to make that any more clear.

The Mayor is telling you this has nothing more to do than with the fact that the Firefighters want a raise. That is not true, that is where the lie is. Again, I don't know how to make that explaination any more clear.

I do appreciate the opportunity to correct your misconception of what is behind the Firefighters opposition to Maps 3. I'm not, nor have I ever been a Police Officer, therefore I'll not address their concerns.

The utmost concern to the Firefighters deals with the cancelling of their schedualed and approved vacation leave. If that happen to you I doubt you would be very happy. Many times the Firefighter and his family lose great sums of money because of last minute cancellation fees, I don't believe that you or anyone else would consider that to be fair.

That issue could have been resolved by calling back EXISTING Firefighters (not by hiring additional Firefighters( another misconception)) to cover those cancellations, and by doing so would have minimal impact on the FD budget. The City chose not to address that problem.

When you take into consideration the huge budget savings the City has, and is continuing to realize because of the fact they don't fill vacancies, this allows them to save lots of money throughout the year by not having to expend the budgeted salaries.

They refer to it as "Salary Savings". What you and others hear from the Mayor and the Manager is the high cost of Firefighters salaries, what you don't hear about is how much the City saves by not hiring the Firefighters to collect those salaries.

In fairness I will admit there is more to this story which has to deal with an arbitration case over the FY/ 2009-10 CBA. The Firefighters did prevail in winning that case, and a raise was in fact awarded to them. They wish to give it back. I'll be happy to discuss the details of how that played out. But first I would ask that you look up a Oklahoma State Supream Court Case titled Stone-Taylor v. Johnson. I would also ask that you review 11-51-101, et seq. of the State Statutes. Considering your recent achivement I think you will better understand how this all transpired. By the way congratulations.

In fairness I will admit there is more to this story which has to deal with an arbitration case over the FY/ 2009-10 CBA. The Firefighters did prevail in winning that case, and a raise was in fact awarded to them. They wish to give it back. I'll be happy to discuss the details of how that played out. But first I would ask that you look up a Oklahoma State Supream Court Case titled Stone-Taylor v. Johnson. I would also ask that you review 11-51-101, et seq. of the State Statutes. Considering your recent achivement I think you will better understand how this all transpired. By the way congratulations.

Thanks for your service. I'm sure countless citizens have you to thank for being alive, so don't every think I'm trying to minimize what you have done or what your colleagues continue to do every day.

I'll give those things a look and get back to you as I'm not able to shoot from the hip on things like that without a little bit of research.

Thanks for your service. I'm sure countless citizens have you to thank for being alive, so don't every think I'm trying to minimize what you have done or what your colleagues continue to do every day.

I'll give those things a look and get back to you as I'm not able to shoot from the hip on things like that without a little bit of research.

I understand, and thanks for your thanks. I'll be the first to say, not only as a retired FF, but as a citizen as well, this has become an unfortunate turn of events. No doubt the position which the Firefighters have taken and no matter what the final outcome is, will cost them a degree of respect from a number of citizens. But I also have no doubt that when the lights come on, and a citizen calls out for help, they'll be there putting their life on the line with, or without that citizens support, respect or admiration.

I really don't understand this police and fire thing. Do they think if MAPS is voted down the sales tax just get reassigned?

It simply goes away and we still have the same problem. As a citizen of okc I'm slightly offended our public safety enitities are trying to use MAPS to get what they want when even they know they have nothing to do with each other.

If they help maps get defeated do they actually think they will be helping their cause?

I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mid, to begin with I'm retired from the OCFD, so this has nothing to do with my disagreeing with the City because I did not get what I wanted. So, not only have I not ask for a raise, I will say this again, the Firefighters didn't, and don't want a raise. Now I don't know what else I can say to make that any more clear.

The Mayor is telling you this has nothing more to do than with the fact that the Firefighters want a raise. That is not true, that is where the lie is. Again, I don't know how to make that explaination any more clear.

I do appreciate the opportunity to correct your misconception of what is behind the Firefighters opposition to Maps 3. I'm not, nor have I ever been a Police Officer, therefore I'll not address their concerns.

The utmost concern to the Firefighters deals with the cancelling of their schedualed and approved vacation leave. If that happen to you I doubt you would be very happy. Many times the Firefighter and his family lose great sums of money because of last minute cancellation fees, I don't believe that you or anyone else would consider that to be fair.

That issue could have been resolved by calling back EXISTING Firefighters (not by hiring additional Firefighters( another misconception)) to cover those cancellations, and by doing so would have minimal impact on the FD budget. The City chose not to address that problem.

When you take into consideration the huge budget savings the City has, and is continuing to realize because of the fact they don't fill vacancies, this allows them to save lots of money throughout the year by not having to expend the budgeted salaries.

They refer to it as "Salary Savings". What you and others hear from the Mayor and the Manager is the high cost of Firefighters salaries, what you don't hear about is how much the City saves by not hiring the Firefighters to collect those salaries.

In fairness I will admit there is more to this story which has to deal with an arbitration case over the FY/ 2009-10 CBA. The Firefighters did prevail in winning that case, and a raise was in fact awarded to them. They wish to give it back. I'll be happy to discuss the details of how that played out. But first I would ask that you look up a Oklahoma State Supream Court Case titled Stone-Taylor v. Johnson. I would also ask that you review 11-51-101, et seq. of the State Statutes. Considering your recent achivement I think you will better understand how this all transpired. By the way congratulations.


I'm law enforcement and was under the impression MAPS is for improvements to the city. Not to increase the amount of city workers. Yes, law enforcement and firefighters need to be increased. But honestly tell me a public service out there that doesn't need increased manning. Look at the mliitary and how much they have been cut back. Government strongly believes in less is more. Now I agree with your stance but I am also a strong supporter for MAPS. I believe the benefit for MAPS strongly outweighs law enforcement/firefighters.

Have you stopped to think how much revenue MAPS projects bring to the community? How much new construction and updates to the city take place. Why take away from something that is meant for the people of the city? Lets face the facts, law enforcement and firefighters will be increased as OKC continues to grow. The city has to grow, improve and reach that next tier to get the things we all want.

I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great point.

okrednk

your law enforcement? Obviously not on the department in question. Please feel free to walk up to any one of your brothers from the Oklahoma City Police Department and ask them to explain their concerns. Call FOP 123 and they'll explain each one. or better yet email me directly iron76hd@yahoo.com and i'll explain them to you.

I don't entirely agree with you. I'll keep it simple for you. You see in the small town of 2500 where I grew up the police force of 8 has been more than enough. That town's population has remained somewhat the same. So the 8 officers is still adequate.

Add 20 percent in population to that and a few hundred illegal aliens and now that 8 person department doesn't fair so well. the volunteer fire department or small city crew doesn't either. Now if you work in a law enforcement of 8 officers in that town. You're not doing any worse no matter if 100 years past. If you live in this city...well a whole different story.

As for the revenue. Where is the revenue made by MAPS1 or MAPS 2? Do you know why at least one additional city worker wasn't added... NOT ONE...NOT one fireman. not one policeman...not one city worker...NONE...We don't... maybe you do..

Also what is the next tier?

What is "all the things we want"?

... I will say this again, the Firefighters didn't, and don't want a raise. Now I don't know what else I can say to make that any more clear.

The Mayor is telling you this has nothing more to do than with the fact that the Firefighters want a raise. That is not true, that is where the lie is. Again, I don't know how to make that explaination any more clear. ...
Hi Andy157,

Not taking either side on this one...as I posted earlier in the thread there was a recent article in the Oklahoman that had this to say from the “Overtime a Hot Issue” linked pic at:

NewsOK

Last month, the city council and the fire union each rejected the other’s final offer for a new contract. The UNION WANTS RAISES and new hires the city says it can’t afford.

Are you saying the article is incorrect?

... Lets face the facts, law enforcement and firefighters will be increased as OKC continues to grow. The city has to grow, improve and reach that next tier to get the things we all want.

Haven't researched it so don't have the numbers, but I think that is the issue he is trying to get across...the City has grown and the police and fire manpower (not buildings/equipment) hasn't kept pace with that growth. If not mistaken, he is saying, City leadership has said over the years that those needs will be addressed, but they haven't done so.

Sorry, the link in post #152 didn't come thru (go to page 6 of this thread, think it is near the top) and the link is there....

Iron, to address your concerns, a lot of the reason OKC can't add new firefighters and police officers to existing units is because it's having to build new plants on the outskirts of town due to urban sprawl. The only way to stop urban sprawl short of deannexation (which many of us are in favor of) is to make urban redevelopment attractive. The way to do that? MAPS III. It sort of kills two birds with one stone for y'all, so why you'd be against it is a puzzler to me.

okrednk

your law enforcement? Obviously not on the department in question. Please feel free to walk up to any one of your brothers from the Oklahoma City Police Department and ask them to explain their concerns. Call FOP 123 and they'll explain each one. or better yet email me directly iron76hd@yahoo.com and i'll explain them to you.

I don't entirely agree with you. I'll keep it simple for you. You see in the small town of 2500 where I grew up the police force of 8 has been more than enough. That town's population has remained somewhat the same. So the 8 officers is still adequate.

Add 20 percent in population to that and a few hundred illegal aliens and now that 8 person department doesn't fair so well. the volunteer fire department or small city crew doesn't either. Now if you work in a law enforcement of 8 officers in that town. You're not doing any worse no matter if 100 years past. If you live in this city...well a whole different story.

As for the revenue. Where is the revenue made by MAPS1 or MAPS 2? Do you know why at least one additional city worker wasn't added... NOT ONE...NOT one fireman. not one policeman...not one city worker...NONE...We don't... maybe you do..

Also what is the next tier?

What is "all the things we want"?

I do have a few friends on OKC PD. Did I mention my father works in OKC? The point was missed. Voting down the MAPS issue will do absolutely nothing for increasing law enforcement or fire department personnel. Again, what government (state and federal) is not short staffed.

Who are your friends? Ask them? Ask your father? In your area of Law Enforcement, in your expert opinion are 9 officers enough to cover 300 plus square miles? Because that's what's happening. Do you and your father speak?

We are only informing the citizens about City Services. If MAPS3 doesn't pass then so be it. We prefer citizens let city leaders know that we need to address Public Safety, but if it's Voted YES...then ok.

The Counsel's take on the matter is..."Let the People Decide"...I suppose if the people decide not to pass MAPS3 then maybe they'll look at WHY DIDN't it PASS....or maybe they'll decide to focus on Public Safety...

ok we want the informed voters at the polls. If voters only know what the Daily Oklahoman Says and all of the commercials (that will soon follow) of how great MAPS3 is then their not really informed...

and furthermore...after reading what's actually on paper....the counsel didn't get very detailed...they want a blank $777 million dollar check...

Iron, you're in the wrong thread again. Why don't you address Patrick's data regarding per capita police and fire personnel in the OKC Police and Fire Needs thread.

Another thread hijack by our tactful fire and police friends. Anyhow......


We prefer citizens let city leaders know that we need to address Public Safety, but if it's Voted YES...then ok.

Citizens have already spoken in the citizen surveys that were completed. Again, public safety was not mentioned as a problem.

You prefer to create a problem where citizens currently don't feel there is one.


The Counsel's take on the matter is..."Let the People Decide"...I suppose if the people decide not to pass MAPS3 then maybe they'll look at WHY DIDN't it PASS....or maybe they'll decide to focus on Public Safety...

Doubt it. If MAPS 3 doesn't pass, I don't think there will be any measures passed to increase public safety. Quite the contrary. By opposing MAPS 3 so strongly, you guys are basically burning your bridges with city hall. Not very smart IMHO. Expect a backlash against you.


ok we want the informed voters at the polls. If voters only know what the Daily Oklahoman Says and all of the commercials (that will soon follow) of how great MAPS3 is then their not really informed...

I don't really see anything not so great about MAPS3.



and furthermore...after reading what's actually on paper....the counsel didn't get very detailed...they want a blank $777 million dollar check...

Not what they wanted, just how they have to word it due to certain rules regarding legal jargon and how ordinances are proposed on ballots. Future public support will keep the city accountable on their promises. With something as big as MAPS, if say the transit system doesn't get built, city leaders can kiss good bye any chances of ever passing a MAPS program again.


A more mature way for you guys to get your point across would be, not to oppose MAPS 3 in retaliation of not getting what you wanted, but instead to lobby public interest and support in getting improvements in fire and police services. If you put half the effort you're going to put into opposing MAPS3, into rallying public support for a future funding increase for increased manpower in the fire and police departments, I bet you'd get more accomplished. Instead you choose to use immature dirty tactics of, "I didn't get my way, so everyone will suffer."

Hi Andy157,

Not taking either side on this one...as I posted earlier in the thread there was a recent article in the Oklahoman that had this to say from the “Overtime a Hot Issue” linked pic at:

NewsOK

Last month, the city council and the fire union each rejected the other’s final offer for a new contract. The UNION WANTS RAISES and new hires the city says it can’t afford.

Are you saying the article is incorrect?I would have to answere your question by saying the article is not entirely correct. Which no doubt will require a more finite explaination. We can discuss this further and later in its proper thread. I have no desire to be guilty of hijacking this one

I would have to answere your question by saying the article is not entirely correct. Which no doubt will require a more finite explaination. We can discuss this further and later in its proper thread. I have no desire to be guilty of hijacking this one

Not a problem (think I posted it in the correct thread too)...

Last month, the city council and the fire union each rejected the other’s final offer for a new contract. The UNION WANTS RAISES and new hires the city says it can’t afford.

Are you saying the article is incorrect?

YES...Neither Police or City Workers have asked for a raise this year. The Fireman won a raise through arbitration and have told the city they won't take it if they hire more Fireman.

Incorrect or a Lie...you be the judge.

The crack in Iron's dam is showing.

I think I'm going to go door to door to support MAPS III. Your mindless, insulting posts have provoked me to do whatever it takes to get it passed.

Everyone on this board who supports MAPS (which is the overwhelming majority) should do the same. Otherwise, they will only hear from misleading jerks like Iron.

I'll be speaking at my neighborhood association's meeting. I urge anyone else reading this to do the same.

A more mature way for you guys to get your point across would be, not to oppose MAPS 3 in retaliation of not getting what you wanted, but instead to lobby public interest and support in getting improvements in fire and police services. If you put half the effort you're going to put into opposing MAPS3, into rallying public support for a future funding increase for increased manpower in the fire and police departments, I bet you'd get more accomplished. Instead you choose to use immature dirty tactics of, "I didn't get my way, so everyone will suffer."

Well said. :congrats:

The TAX for MAPS3 should be spent on adding adequate City Workers. NOT for a Park etc....



NO IT SHOULDN'T. Sorry. You can't fund personnel with a temporary tax, unless you want those people to be let go after 7 years. You are seriously off track with this and you should be focusing on campaining for city budget changes if this issue is so important to you. You are a broken record and your clamoring on about this in regards to MAPS3 is obnoxious and only serves to turn people against you and your cause.

NO IT SHOULDN'T. Sorry. You can't fund personnel with a temporary tax, unless you want those people to be let go after 7 years. You are seriously off track with this and you should be focusing on campaining for city budget changes if this issue is so important to you. You are a broken record and your clamoring on about this in regards to MAPS3 is obnoxious and only serves to turn people against you and your cause.

Wow.. that he would even have suggested that really tells you that he has no clue what he's talking about. He's just here towing the union party line.

Really, I am very thankful for the efforts of the police and fire departments. Those guys put their butts on the line every day for folks like you and me. For that, I'm grateful.

Unless it can be shown though, that services are actually being affected by the current staffing situation and that the situation is significant, I can't really second guess the City Manager's decision.

not saying I would advocate the following, but in truth, had the city fathers WANTED to address personnel needs first ....

I think the city could have advanced, raised awareness and garnered support, and then voted to send the following to the people -

Should the existing 1 cent temp tax become a permanent 1 cent sales tax, restricted in ratio for the following purposes
0.67 dedicated to a capital improvement fund
0.2425 public safety personnel
0.165 dedicated to city services personnel

Again, I think they could have done this, or done something similar, had the city fathers WANTED to.

The MAPs tax probably ought to retain its illusion of being temporary though.
Also, John and Jane Public weren't clamoring for more officers and fire folks or water folks, etc., so it would of taken an awful lot of WANT by the city fathers, and most of them, irrespective of community, aren't real big on sliding out on thin limbs.

While it's true that convention travel is down, OKC for geographical reasons alone is a good choice for those companies and business' that are having conventions to think about coming here. Presuming air travel to and from OKC isn't to difficult.

I'm all for each of the projects mentioned. The streetrail I might use a few times a year since I dont work downtown, the fair definitely needs the improvements after the butcher job they've done on it in the last decade, bike trails....love it, the more the better (might want to finish that bike/pedestrain bridge over NWHWY though to really get me onboard. Sidewalks are a given...this is one of the most pedestrian unfriendly cities I've ever seen.

The aquatic centers for the seniors I wont use for a few more years...but what a great statement it makes about OKC to have that on the project list. And I'm sure those would go to great use. The river projects while I might not use them very often either, would sure be a great destination for those that do.

It looks like people voted for the projects they would use the most in the poll. Since many won't be attending conventions here in their hometown it's understandable that they think little of that particular project.

I have to admit the park is my favorite. And while having a grand central park would be nice I think having the convention center bordering it would be beneficial to both. Especially if said convention center is attached to a new hotel with a patio restaurant overlooking the park. The Myraid gardens while overlooked by many in OKC can be beautiful, almost magical if you catch it with the christmas lights burning during a good snow. Its just that its not within walking distance (for some) of the rest of downtown, especially any of the downtown housing. For the new park to be truly succesful it needs the convention center, retail and residential development to complete the area.




I don't think OKC needs any more parks, clean up the ones we already have so they are usable. Not full of trash , graffati , and weeds. Just more for the park dept to mow and maintain, which they can't do now. The graffiti is getting out of hand

There are actually some very nice parks on the south side of the Olahoma river. If you ride down the north bank of the river, except near the Chesapeake boathouse, it isn't nearly as park-like as the south side, all of which looks very clean from the vantage point of a bicycle.

Will Rogers has the potential to be a stunning park. It's biggest problem is its location, not the park department. The park at Lake Hefner is very nicely maintained.

The concept of a downtown park is different from a neighborhood park, and it's something I've always admired in cities I've visited. The most famous, of course, are in New York, Boston and Chicago. The downtown belongs to everyone: people who live on the north side of the city, people on the southside, people living in the suburbs, people who visit from other places. A downtown park becomes a place of community, if done correctly. It's a place where people can come together to recreate and celebrate. Regardless of your politics, it was hard not to be touched by the gathering at Millenium Park in Chicago to hear President Obama's acceptance speech. That was a community celebration, and the community had a place to come together that they all recognized as uniquely theirs and uniquely part of the fabric of the city of Chicago.

A park in downtown Oklahoma City would also give us the opportunity to connect our Central business district to the river. The river, thanks to MAPS, is a unique and wonderful resource, but on the north, it is bounded by derelict buildings and blight. A park would give us the opportunity to remove that blight through the development an adjacent park would create, as well as convert some of that land to green space. Cities need green spaces to make them more organic and accessible to people who work, live and recreate there, IMO.

Wiley Post is a nice little park, with many improvements. But, in part due to its location, it's more a daytime than post dusk experience.

After dark it's less friendly for any family not named Jewels.

The fire and police people who keep hijacking threads are on here are depressing me. Are people really that short-sided? I generally want the police and fire to have the things they want, but not at the expense of killing our momentum WHICH WILL HELP PAY FOR THOSE THINGS in the future.

NO IT SHOULDN'T. Sorry. You can't fund personnel with a temporary tax, unless you want those people to be let go after 7 years. You are seriously off track with this and you should be focusing on campaining for city budget changes if this issue is so important to you. You are a broken record and your clamoring on about this in regards to MAPS3 is obnoxious and only serves to turn people against you and your cause.

Hey Joe you missed the point. My point was, that TAX shouldn't have been done at all untill the other important city issues were addressed.


I think I'm going to go door to door to support MAPS III. Your mindless, insulting posts have provoked me to do whatever it takes to get it passed.

What part of my posts were mindless. Or was that just something colorful to type? Who have I insulted? Door to Door is a good Idea. Start on the NE side of Oklahoma City. That's were you need the most support. I'll go with you. I'll call Patrick and carry a stretcher. I'll pick you up at the second house, strap you down and help get you checked into OUHSC. They can't wait to hear how your park, convention center, and walking trails are going to benefit them. :LolLolLol

I have a couple of questions regarding two of the MAPS projects. I hope someone here will have the answerers. Soon we will be voting on this City’s forth MAPS style of temporary and dedicated sales tax. Of course, there was MAPS 1, followed by MAPS (4 KIDS) 2, and the tax to upgrade the Ford Center/ Practice Facility currently in progress. One could argue to label the later MAPS is, or is not technically correct, I will refer to it as MAPS 2.5, and next in line to be voted on MAPS 3.

My questions have to do with what I do not know about number (2), and what I have been told about (2.5), but lack confirmation if my information is correct. Considering the fact MAPS 1 is history, we know that in the proposed length of time the City was unable to collect a sufficient amount of money in order to complete all of the projects. For what ever reason those shortfalls occurred we gave the City a pass, granted them an extension, they finished what they had promised, so for the most part everyone was happy and pleased. Count me as one of them.

After MAPS 1, we went right into MAPS (4 KIDS) 2. I cannot recall the specific details, such as how many projects were promised, or what the projected cost of those projects were estimated to be. According to DougDawgs blog, the duration in which to collect the money and finish the proposal was to be seven years. I trust that is accurate. During that seven-year period, talks began on how to continue the progress by continuing the MAPS plan with a MAPS 3.

As we all know an update to the Ford Center was part of the MAPS 3 wish list being talked about. We also know that during that same period the issue of having a NBA team relocated to OKC surfaced and became known. Since upgrades to the Ford Center, as well as a new Practice Facility would have to be done in order for the relocation to become a reality, and time was of the essence, the Ford Center was carved out of MAPS 3 to be a separate stand alone project causing the rest of MAPS 3 to be put on hold. The Citizens agreed, and voted to expedite the Ford Center upgrades by extending the MAPS tax with MAPS 2.5







My questions regarding MAPS 2 are. (1) Were all of the projects completed? (2) If not, did we collect enough money to complete them and have it in reserve? (3) If the answer to my second question is no, how will that be accomplished? Common sense, or at least history, would lead me to believe that had we not finished the plan for the reason of a shortfall in revenue or because of cost overruns, those issues would have been addressed as they were in MAPS 1.

Here is my concern, and I hope my concern turns out to be unfounded. I am highly skeptical in the belief that all of MAPS 2 was, or is completed. If they have not been, my paranoia tells me lack of money is the reason. My conspiracy theory is this. MAPS 2 is not finished, there is no money to finish it, and the option to address those issues by extending the tax in reality is no longer an option because of the NBA teams wish to relocate to OKC. To extend MAPS 2 would have been a deathblow to MAPS 2.5, and there is no doubt, at least in my mind, the powers that be would allow that to happen.

This brings me to my last issue of concern, which has to do with what I have been told regarding MAPS 2.5. This information came to me, second hand, from City Hall. To simply put it, (1) the Ford Center upgrades/ new Practice Facility project, MAPS 2.5, is going to fall short of completion based upon a number of various reasons. Additional NBA requirements being one of them. (2) This has not been brought to light by City leaders for fear of the negative impact it would have on MAPS 3. (3) MAPS 2.5 will be completed, at all cost, and the money will come from MAPS 3. (4) This can be accomplished if MAPS 3 is adopted by the vote of the Citizens due to the vague ballot language. I will hold judgment on this until there is proof this information is correct. I hope that proof does not come after the fact.

This brings me to my last issue of concern, which has to do with what I have been told regarding MAPS 2.5. This information came to me, second hand, from City Hall. To simply put it, (1) the Ford Center upgrades/ new Practice Facility project, MAPS 2.5, is going to fall short of completion based upon a number of various reasons. Additional NBA requirements being one of them. (2) This has not been brought to light by City leaders for fear of the negative impact it would have on MAPS 3. (3) MAPS 2.5 will be completed, at all cost, and the money will come from MAPS 3. (4) This can be accomplished if MAPS 3 is adopted by the vote of the Citizens due to the vague ballot language. I will hold judgment on this until there is proof this information is correct. I hope that proof does not come after the fact.
Strong words, Andy. If what you have been told second-hand is true, the matters you raise are quite serious.

Are you in a position to amplify and/or refer to sources for what you've said? If so, what you've said must be taken very seriously. If not, it's difficult for me to give them any status other than a "he-said" "she-said" kind of thing, no personal disrespect intended.

I don't know what will happen with MAPS3. I feel like RATIONAL citizens will prevail and after finally knowing what's going on with city services the will VOTE NO. Even those of us that want to support MAPS3, will change their mind THIS TIME. Until they see other needs addressed. Not wants. Needs.

All of your progress will be halted I guess. That's too bad. Citizens will be a alot safer because their already stretched city services won't be stretched anymore.

That will be a good thing. This Mayor will address the city services or the next one will. I doubt you'll have as many City Counselmen and Women acting like little sheep and following so blindly in the future.

There will be some eventually that will listen to reason and address real city issues. Then we can all move on.

Until then don't be so gutless. Get a mind of your own. Get an opinion of your own. You do that by trying to get all of the facts. Try to see the other points being made by ALL of those who don't agree with MAPS3. At least give another citizen a listen. Don't be insulting folks for no other reason than their opinion differs from yours.

It's easy to insult on a computer. :poke: I don't think this is where we need to do that. I thought many of you were mindless, spineless, and complete idiots as you discredited everything that was told to you by folks who are actually providing services to this city. I could quote several completely irrational responses to real numbers given by folks. Not cut and paste 2004 statistics from a census or the DOJ.

If I and those doing those jobs had no conscience, We could go to work and only answer one call at a time. Take the appropriate time needed for the call and ignore all those calls for help by citizens piling up. Let crime run rampant in this city due to understaffing. We can't do that. Instead we run call to call patching up things to stay available for the priority calls. You see. We're getting our checks. We are (if we live) going to retire. It's a duty to our citizens, conscience, fellow employee's, and this city that keeps us hammering away.

Please don't waste your time. You'll not get under my skin. Say whatever you want. The only thing on here that's a little annoying is reading sarcasm and insults from folks and then when the favor is returned you guys whine about it. I'd be a liar if I say I didn't laugh at that and get annoyed at the same time. Unfortunately for those that insult, I try to get upset at stuff typed or said, but it's not in my makeup. I definitely know for many here that's not the case. :LolLolLol

Now come on. Get the facts. And VOTE NO:congrats:

Strong words, Andy. If what you have been told second-hand is true, the matters you raise are quite serious.

Are you in a position to amplify and/or refer to sources for what you've said? If so, what you've said must be taken very seriously. If not, it's difficult for me to give them any status other than a "he-said" "she-said" kind of thing, no personal disrespect intended.Doug, I'm sorry, but no. I am not at liberty to reveal the identity of my source, or the identity of theirs. I completly understand where your difficulty lies. As I said, I will not pass judgement until this hearsay regarding 2.5 has been confirmed as the truth. I hope it can be truthfully denied. I would hope if these alegations are legitimate that the person at city hall would bring them to light. I know the person who passed these issues to me did not, and would not, fabricate a story like this. As for the concerns I have regarding MAPS (4KIDS) 2, those are mine alone

Iron, I've considered blocking your posts from my view (which you can reciprocate with my own posts by using the "ignore" function in this forum's software), but I've not done that yet to any person.

Why have I thought about doing that for your posts? You waste my time. You are like a preacher to preaches the same sermon over and over, and no room exists in what you preach for any possibility of error. Although no suicides have been reported in the local media yet which identify you as the cause (ala the nun who hung herself in the movie Airplane), that's probably because most just skip on by what you have to say, which is what I have done until this point in time.

Even if others point possible error out to you, you ignore it, and you, by our own words, are self-vindicated. You, and only you, know the truth. For you, MAPS 3 is a black or white thing with no shades of gray in between.

Most here, including me, probably don't want to invest the time to argue and/or discuss the points you raise with you since you present yourself as being beyond the possibility of error. Patrick is an exception and he has graced your comments with replies like he was Jesus or at least had a semblance of his patience. That's his call. But, for me, my call is what's the point of arguing and/or discussing things with God? Maybe you are that rich in the validity of your opinions and I can't exclude that as a possibility. Be that as it may, your posts are causing me to look for a reliable rope-noose, just in case I need to have it handy.

Doug, I'm sorry, but no. I am not at liberty to reveal the identity of my source, or the identity of theirs. I completly understand where your difficulty lies. As I said, I will not pass judgement until this hearsay regarding 2.5 has been confirmed as the truth. I hope it can be truthfully denied. I would hope if these alegations are legitimate that the person at city hall would bring them to light. I know the person who passed these issues to me did not, and would not, fabricate a story like this. As for the concerns I have regarding MAPS (4KIDS) 2, those are mine alone
Thanks, and once again, Andy, those are powerful comments. Where are good investigative journalists (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/10/about-our-principal-bee-watcher.html) when you need them?

Doug, I'm sorry, but no. I am not at liberty to reveal the identity of my source, or the identity of theirs. I completly understand where your difficulty lies. As I said, I will not pass judgement until this hearsay regarding 2.5 has been confirmed as the truth. I hope it can be truthfully denied. I would hope if these alegations are legitimate that the person at city hall would bring them to light. I know the person who passed these issues to me did not, and would not, fabricate a story like this. As for the concerns I have regarding MAPS (4KIDS) 2, those are mine alone

P.S. Doug, none taken.