"Wouldn't be any different than the deals with Edwards Theatres, Dick Clark's American Bandstand Grill, Sega Gameworks, etc. falling through, all of which Hogan promised, and supposedly had letters of intent from. "

Yeah, it would be different.
The Edwards Theaters deal was very, very real. It got snagged up in the bankruptcies that swept the industry in 2000.
Dick Clark's made the Dick Clark's announcement, not Hogan. I recall that because Hogan was none too pleased about that press release going out.
Sega - yep, looking back that appears to have been truly a weak letter of intent that Hogan used as a band-aid to hold his development contract in place until he could find a real theater. This is observation only, and I can't prove that.

Well, those Sega locations no longer exist (maybe one survived in Tokyo) so it might have been a good thing after all the letter was weak.

Patrick, if you were in charge, which would you pick: a Hard Rock Cafe or the UK-supported Academy of Contemporary Music? Which is more unique (not saying better): Hard Rock Cafe or Toby Keith's?

Patrick, if you were in charge, which would you pick: a Hard Rock Cafe or the UK-supported Academy of Contemporary Music? Which is more unique (not saying better): Hard Rock Cafe or Toby Keith's?

I'm not a big fan of Hard Rock (I don't see where it's much different from Chili's!!!), so definitely the UK-supported Academy of Contemporary Music.

I have to admit, I'd rather have the Toby Keith's over the Hard Rock. At least it's from local star Toby Keith, and I think having the live performances is a plus, whereas Hard Rock is just another theme restaurant.

Well, those Sega locations no longer exist (maybe one survived in Tokyo) so it might have been a good thing after all the letter was weak.

It was no different from Moshe Tal's Hard Rock promise.

Regarding Moshe Tal, I'm not sure his proposal would've been much better. He proposed a major enclosed mall for the property, which in today's economy, might have never made it. I really doubt it would've competed well with Penn Square Mall. And, he probably would've had the same problem attracting upscale tenants as other local real estate firms have. He promised large names like Gucci, Saks, Nordstrom, etc., but knowing what we know now, I don't really think he would've had much luck landing those retailers. We're probably better off with the Harkins Theatre. Still, I like the density that Tal proposed in his development. But, it did look a lot like San Antonio's River Center complex.

Well, those Sega locations no longer exist (maybe one survived in Tokyo) so it might have been a good thing after all the letter was weak.

gameworks is still around. i think it would be cool to have one of those still. just my opinion though.

How about the Hard Rock Hotel and Racino for Remington Park?

Isn't there a tribe wanting to build a casino not too far from Remington Park.

Why couldn't the tribe take over Remington Park and build a hotel on site?

couple of tribes have bid on remington and should be in the running...

As for the original subject of this thread: So what?

Hard Rock is a brand known world wide, but it is known as much for its failures as it is for anything else. As others have pointed out, it is a brand as stale as Chili's or Planet Hollywood and it has little power to elevate the status of a development or community on its own. What really matters is whether or not the resort is world class. Whether it will be or not, I do not know, but even high quality resort hotels and casinos are a dime a dozen in this country. Most people live within a days drive of one. Really the only thing more watered down than the Hard Rock brand is Indian casinos themselves. It's not much different than if Harrah's brought its Toby Keith's tie-in to a lower bricktown casino or if Hooters leased its concept to an indian casino in bricktown.

I don't mean to say that it can't help the northeastern part of the state or that Indian casinos can't have a positive impact. In fact, due to revenue generated by the casino operations, these hotels often bring resort accommodations to a community that may not otherwise attract them. This is why I think it could be a good thing for there to be one within the city limits. Remington Park would be a great place as it may soon be connected to downtown and bricktown via rail and it is next to other attractions that could really benefit from the presence of a high quality resort near by. I think that it would really elevate the adventure district to a new level. But again, I don't think its branding would mean near as much as its location within the city itself or its overall quality.

We already have casinos within comparable distances from Oklahoma City as the Hard Rock will be from Tulsa. From what I can tell, they are not nearly as nice as the Hard Rock will be, but then again, doesn't that just mean that people are less as likely to actually go or stay in Tulsa? It seems to me you will have more people stay at the Hard Rock and visit Tulsa, and here you might have more people stay in Oklahoma City and visit the surrounding casinos. I'd personally rather have the latter, but it would be more beneficial if the resort was actually in the city, imo...

In any event, the rebranding of the hotel as a Hard Rock is not a bad thing, I just don't think it's something that is necessarily impressive on its own or something that quantifiably elevates the draw of the market beyond what any nice resort can do. Really what would make it more of a factor is if Catoosa was able to attract several more attractions to compliment the resort, giving it more of a competitive advantage against resort areas in other states and/or regions.

As for Lower Bricktown, I doubt it would be much better off today if it had a Hard Rock. We can go round and round with the "what if's" and Moshe Tal theories, but the reality is that Hogan got the project and, in my opinion, his mistake is not necessarily the tenant mix he has managed to create, but the way he has hobbled the district with his approach to building it out. It has actually a pretty good thing going with a mix of local restaurants and bars to go along with the theater, but it now has no where to go. In addition to committing prime space to surface parking, he used a large part of Reno and canal fronting property for a corporate office building that, to date, has no retail or publicly accessible space in it. If any of the current spaces were filled with a Hard Rock, it still would have no space left to capitalize on the presence of a Hard Rock, whatever value may or may not be left in that brand. Entertainment districts intent on being destinations need a comprehensive and dense mix of different services and attractions. There is little possibility of achieving that in lower bricktown at this point without rethinking much of what is already in place.

You can dog it all you want but with only 7 in the world Hard Rock Hotels (http://www.hardrockhotels.com) is coming to Tulsa its going to be HUGE just watch this will be fun. They will also be doing national TV advertising. It will be bigger than you think.



Pages - default (http://www.hardrockcasinotulsa.com)

Wow! I guess there is nothing more to say on this issue, Tulsa is finally big league and passes OKC in one year? Don't, make me laugh! :congrats:


We didn't bombard the Tulsa Now forum with "Oklahoma City, Not Tulsa, Is Getting an NBA franchise." We did leave Seattle a bone to chew on... We have the real McCoy. Hope you enjoy the WNBA, it's a perfect fit for Tulsa and you will have my support, I like watching the women play and I might drop in on the Hard Rock Zoo. I don't gamble.

The only thing hard I see Tulsa getting here is a hard head. You're going to need Oklahoma City to support many of the new adventures, so I wouldn't be playing the goodie, goodie, goodie scenanio--we are happy for you :LolLolLol; it just might cause one to think about visiting our little sister to the northeast.

Just the title of this thread seems as though Tulsa took off that hand-me-own dress made of drapes worn by Miss Scarlet and finally went shopping at their own Saks Fifth Avenue and got one hell of a bargain--well its about time!

Keep us informed about what's coming to Tulsa; however, you guys need to leave the goodie two-shoes out!

I think its cool that the Cherokee is now being branded as a Hard Rock resort. However, the Hard Rock brand has been owned by the Seminole Nation of Florida for a while now...I don't really see this as a big deal. So what, the Cherokees worked out a deal to brand their largest resort as a "Hard Rock" destination. This was NOT a Hard Rock-led concept. They simply re-branded the existing Cherokee casino. Whoopdy-freakin doo.

This is for you OKC YouTube - Gin Blossoms - Hey Jealousy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxQhx4t1FmE) Right on!!!

We're so jealous of Tulsa, you're on an OKC chat board....

HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:Smiley112

I am in Tulsa also, and In_Tulsa does not speak for all of us.
Tulsa has some things that OKC doesnt, OKC has many things that Tulsa doesnt, why not keep it that way, lets keep the turnpike busy, visiting each others town.
I personally enjoy my routine trips to OKC.
but on one aspect, they may be jealous, because all they have is an NBA team, and we are getting a WNBA team, now take that OKC.

Now, if OKC ever gets an NFL team, then I would be ticked off (but I would still come to all home games)

Tulsan here . . .

I don't see what the big deal is. Tulsa is uniquely situated to have large Indian Gaming establishments (too bad we didn't plan it out and have them in one district to attract larger gaming crowds, but I digress). Most cities don't have large sections of tribal land within them conducive to such things. That includes Oklahoma City.

And while it is mildly exciting to be getting a Hard Rock in town and it very well may attract some visitors, it certainly isn't a milestone.

Oklahoma City did very well in the last 10-15 years redeveloping downtown, getting businesses to open up and breathing new life and a new image into "an old cow town." You are on ESPN every other weekend for rowing, softball, AAA baseball, or the NBA. Large conventions populate downtown and frequent your central entertainment district. New skyscraper is in the works and your governmental employer base is growing way faster than the private sector.

Tulsa lagged behind for nearly two decades. From the oil crash in the 1980's, the collapse of CFS, WorldCom and Williams, then the devastation of our aviation industry . . . until relatively recently we stagnated. We're catching up some ground as your new entities are settling in.

I welcome a robust competing between the two cities to make each a better place to live. A Hard Rock Cafe in Tulsa doesn't suck tax money or business from OKC and a lively Bricktown doesn't draw many beer sales away from the Blue Dome. It's a huge non-issue. Two vibrant mid-sized cities growing just down the road from each other could benefit from amazing synergy.

Now all we have to do is connect them by rail. :bright_id

Article on the Hard Rock asking why, oh why:
Why Are Some Businesses Coming to Tulsa, Not Oklahoma City? - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.kwtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=10808295)

This is for you OKC YouTube - Gin Blossoms - Hey Jealousy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxQhx4t1FmE) Right on!!!

Said in good humor to In Tulsa:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/p7w64fbqYQY&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/p7w64fbqYQY&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

(Um, now let's quit it with the OKC/TULSA wars - both cities need to prosper and become great in their own right if this state is to move forward)

Can't unassigned land be reassigned as tribal land though?

Tribes can buy land anywhere just like any business. But they must declare if that land will be used for gaming before the purchase is made.

Only their assigned lands can be used for gaming. Any new land purchased that was not in their original assigned land cannot be used for gaming.

The tribes do not decide on if a purchased peice of land will be a casino or not. The land must be placed in Trust by the US government, as set forth by the guidlines that are in place for such. The most recent gaming pact gave the option to have class II gaming at existing race tracks, but can not exceed a specific number of games. So you will not see a hotel being built at any of the tracks. Also, the HR name isn't just being placed on an old hotel and resort. The new, larger tower has only just been completed, along with the new gaming floor. This is not to say that the New tower and gaming floor was built with HR in mind, since the foundations, litterally and figurativly, were laid long before HR was brought in and laid on the table. However, Toby Keith entered into negotiations before the ground was even broken for the new Tower. And no, the Toby Keith Resteraunt is not to be INSIDE the hotel and casino, but has always been planned to be placed on the property. Also, saying that the HR is a comparable distance from Tulsa as casinos near OKC is not accurate either, seeing as the hotel and casino lays less then half a mile from the Tulsa city limits.

Now, beyond the simple facts that have been misrepresented so far, I don't know why everyone seems to be so bothered by the fact of Tulsa getting something good. It seems to be the height of concete to beleive that another metro area in the same state should not get anything that you do not. Putting down anything that happens on this end of the state speaks volumes about you.

At the bottom of this story you can watch a video of what the new Hard Rock Tulsa looks like.


Tulsa World: Video: Ready to rock (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090802_11_A1_Rockpa991833&rss_lnk=1)

Coming soon to a water cooler or kitchen table near you

"Wanna slide over to the new HARD ROCK Casino and grab a bite?"
"Sure. Where do we eat once we're at the HARD ROCK?"
"Toby Keith's I Love this Bar & Grill."
"Toby Keith's????"
"Yep, It's inside the HARD ROCK Casino."

blank stares, trembling lips, then ROTFLOL ensures.

I think the Hard Rock Cafe opens in summer of 2010.

I understand it is not an official site, but I dont see Tulsa on this list.... Beat's Hard Rock Cafe (http://www.hardrockcafes.info/english/cafes.htm)

I think the Hard Rock Cafe opens in summer of 2010.


You might try reading the article in today's Tulsa World. No Hard Rock Cafe is included in the license agreement.

It is going just outside to the east of the casino.

OK everybody, can we just quit falling into this laughable Tulsa vs. OKC debate? Let Tulsa be proud of having a Hard Rock Casino and prospects for a cafe. It doesn't say anything negative about OKC for Tulsa to have this anymore than it says anything negative about Tulsa to not have an NBA team, blah blah, blah...
In Tulsa, congrats on your latest attraction.

I think this is a great chance for you guys to come up to Tulsa for a weekend at the Hard Rock it good for Oklanoma. Before this you would have to go a long way from Oklahoma for a Hard Rock. Also the Hard Rock Cafe that is coming is NOT part of the casino it will be in the parking lot.

Tell ya what In Tulsa - I love visiting Tulsa. But I'm not a casino guy. I love the aquarium, Ollie's on Southwest Boulevard is an incredible Route 66 icon, and I can't get enough of downtown Tulsa's Art Deco architecture. I'll likely be going up there this next month or so on some book business, and I'll report back to my fellow Oklahoma Citians the progress being made in your town.
BTW: how is work going on the Route 66 plaza project that was planned as part of Vision 2025? Has that started yet?

I think this is a great chance for you guys to come up to Tulsa for a weekend at the Hard Rock it good for Oklanoma. Before this you would have to go a long way from Oklahoma for a Hard Rock. Also the Hard Rock Cafe that is coming is NOT part of the casino it will be in the parking lot.

Why would I want to go to Tulsa for a typical tribal casino (we have plenty of those nearby) and a chain restaurant that isn't much different than Chilis or Friday's?

I doubt either will be selling points for tourism. I'd focus on touting your more unique attractions like Philrook, Gilcrease, etc.

Why would I want to go to Tulsa for a typical tribal casino (we have plenty of those nearby) and a chain restaurant that isn't much different than Chilis or Friday's?

I doubt either will be selling points for tourism. I'd focus on touting your more unique attractions like Philrook, Gilcrease, etc.



HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

This will bring more prople to Oklahoma then anything else we have in this state just watch....

This will bring more prople to Oklahoma then anything else we have in this state just watch....

OK, this thing has gone off the rails now.

I don't doubt that it will be a nice casino and hotel, but that is way overstating the draw of Oklahoma's half-assed gaming and certainly the Hard Rock brand. If this was the first or only casino in Oklahoma, then maybe you'd be right, but there are dozens of casinos in Oklahoma already and something like 30+ states have casino hotels now. It's just not that big of a deal anymore and neither is the Hard Rock brand.

Honestly, the net gain on tourism to the state will probably be minimal, if anything. The biggest impact will probably be on other casinos in the state. It may end up being one of the biggest draws in the northeast part of the state, but probably at the expense of other resorts. Really, the state would have to actually change the way it regulates gaming before any single new casino suddenly became the states top attraction. There are just too many other gambling cities with better gaming and better resorts and that's not going to change until the games change. No matter what brand or facade you put on it, it's still Oklahoma Indian Gaming and that only has so much demand that is already well met.

Again, if it elevates the class and quality of accommodations in the state, then that's great, and I would welcome it in Oklahoma City, but it's no windfall. I have never been to an Oklahoma casino and this will not change that and that's simply because it is so cheap and easy to go gamble somewhere else with much better accommodations, entertainment options and much better gaming. I just find it hard to believe that there are that many people just waiting for an Oklahoma casino to be re-branded after a chain restaurant before they come here to play. I suspect that most people who want to play in the state of Oklahoma under our gaming rules are already doing it.

It is the out of state people this will draw. That's good for the state!!

Article just posted on Newsok.com says the deal does not include a cafe:

http://newsok.com/hard-rock-hotel-casino-debuts-in-tulsa-area/article/3390081?custom_click=headlines_widget

Article just posted on Newsok.com says the deal does not include a cafe:

http://newsok.com/hard-rock-hotel-casino-debuts-in-tulsa-area/article/3390081?custom_click=headlines_widget


I just told you the cafe is NOT part of the casino deal. It is a stand alone Hard Rock Cafe Tulsa.

Hmmmm!Hard Rock casino with no cafe? so basicly its a fancy indian casino with a toby kieths!

Link?

It is the out of state people this will draw. That's good for the state!!

That's what I'm talking about. It will draw out of state people by more than twice the in state people, easily. What is hard to imagine is that it will cause a significant increase in out of state gambling tourism as a whole. We already have dozens of easily accessible casinos drawing thousands of out of state people every year. The re-branding and remodeling of the Catoosa Cherokee Casino is much more likely to shift that business to its facility than it is to create a sudden increase in gaming tourism for the state. This is simply because of the nature of Oklahoma's gaming industry, its demographic, and the steep competition it faces from better regulated and better funded casino resorts in other states. As long as our gaming rules stay as is, the overall demand will not change much. It will be well positioned, however, should Oklahoma change the fundamental way its gaming industry is regulated and structured.

It should help Catoosa's convention business and maybe help it draw more attractions as well. Tulsa may benefit from this, but it may also simply be that some of Tulsa's small to mid-size convention business will be moved to Catoosa and the Cherokee Casino's facilities. But again, this has more to do with the upgrade to its facilities than it does with the Hard Rock brand. It's a good thing for the area for sure, let's just keep it realistic as to what exactly its benefits will be and who will be enjoying those benefits. In the end, if it does become the top draw for out of staters, it will most likely be at the expense of other casinos in the area more than a significant and long term increase in Oklahoma's overall tourism numbers.

It is the out of state people this will draw. That's good for the state!!

I agree. In Tulsa, do you have a story link you can provide about the stand-alone Hard Rock Cafe?

I am in Tulsa also, and In_Tulsa does not speak for all of us.
Tulsa has some things that OKC doesnt, OKC has many things that Tulsa doesnt, why not keep it that way, lets keep the turnpike busy, visiting each others town.
I personally enjoy my routine trips to OKC.
but on one aspect, they may be jealous, because all they have is an NBA team, and we are getting a WNBA team, now take that OKC.

Now, if OKC ever gets an NFL team, then I would be ticked off (but I would still come to all home games)

Ah, at last, some common sense....

I have alot of friend in Dallas and next time they come to Oklahoma they will stay at the Hard Rock NOT for the casino but for the hotel. You have to remember the Hard Rock Hotel will be a big draw not just the casino alot of people will stay at the hotel and go to the hard rock store but never step foot in the casino.

In Tulsa, does this mean you don't have a story link on the cafe?

I have alot of friend in Dallas and next time they come to Oklahoma they will stay at the Hard Rock NOT for the casino but for the hotel.

And not because it is a Hard Rock and not in a Tulsa hotel.

Exactly.

I do not have a link just watch it will be here next year!!
I can't tell you how I know but I can tell you there is only one Hard Rock casino with a Hard Rock Cafe in it all the others are just outside and it is not as big of a deal as the Hard Rock Hotel. See there is no Hard Rock Hotel in Dallas thats why they will stay there and if you have not stayed at a Hard Rock Hotel you NEED to even if it's not Tulsa's.

Look, I don't want to get into a flame war here and I think you can acknowledge I've been pretty friendly here. But there's a big difference between saying it's a fact that that a cafe is coming, which is what I've picked up from you, versus "I'm an anonymous poster who has special information that nobody else has and you just need to believe me."
So there is no announced deal for a Hard Rock Cafe in Tulsa or at the casino.
Thanks for clearing this up.
-Steve

An announcement is coming soon!!! By the end of the year. It should be open by the end of July 2010. They are trying to get it open by July 4th. Will see. Oh I can say on the Opening a BIG name will be there??

In Tulsa, I'm not trying to tear you down and it's great if that all comes to pass. But I'm a bit jaded after seeing all the reports and promises involving The American.

Steve when it opens will you came and eat at the cafe? By the way I know nothing about the American

Tell you what, In Tulsa: if the Hard Rock Cafe opens there, I will definitely find the time to travel up there and meet you for lunch. I'm sincere about this.
-Steve

Sounds Good. This will make news soon.

In Tulsa, nice to see you in the Tulsanow forum makin fun of our city and sayin the Thunder were orig. supposed to be the cowpokes!LMFAO

OK, I took a trip over to The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow - Index (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum). First, okcpulse, no stranger here at OKC Talk, makes the case for the two cities working together:

okcpulse
Activist

Offline

Posts: 137


Re: OKC jealous of Tulsa, cries "not fair"
« Reply #30 on: Today at 12:25:40 pm »

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Quote from: Hoss on July 30, 2009, 02:42:34 pm
I'll never go after that doosh Cornett made his comments.

I'm waiting for OKCPulse the Houstonian to chime in.


LOL ... first, never ever ever ever call me a Houstonian. And second, I think I am worn out on the Tulsa vs. OKC rivalry. We are what we are, Oklahomans. I have noticed lately that, through the accomplishments of each city, OKC and Tulsa will continue to challenge each other by raising the bar in their own cities. As long as the competition stays heated, each city will continue to become better places to live and work.

My wife and I have family in both places and I love visiting both cities each year we go back. Tulsa feels like a second home now, OKC is my original home, and right now I am islanded in Houston.

« Last Edit: Today at 12:29:43 pm by okcpulse » Logged

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NOW LET'S LOOK AT IN TULSA'S COMMENTS.....

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In_Tulsa
Activist

Offline

Posts: 95


Re: OKC jealous of Tulsa, cries "not fair"
« Reply #33 on: Today at 04:18:43 pm »

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The facts are these OKC is a cowtown it always had been and always will be. The NBA team was going to be called the Oklahoma City Cowpokes but there mayor said no.

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In Tulsa, the above posts, combined with this thread, give the appearance you're trying to pit the two cities against each other. How is this not trolling? How is this constructive in any way? How does this move the state forward? Do you see any good resulting from your comments?

http://philip9876.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/nuclear-explosion.jpg

In Tulsa, the above posts, combined with this thread, give the appearance you're trying to pit the two cities against each other. How is this not trolling? How is this constructive in any way? How does this move the state forward? Do you see any good resulting from your comments?

Thank you steve!!!!!!!

When I was growing up in OKC, I heard from many outsiders that OKC was just a big, overgrown cowtown? I do notice that the city has made many strides in making itself a more desirable, cosmopolitan city. OKC does have Devon, Chesapeake etc...which help the city tremendously from a philanthropic standpoint. The biggest issue OKC needs to address is overall, the city is not the most cleanest and to be quite honest a wee bit on the dirty side. I hope it gets addressed but until then, I have to side with Tulsa on being the more geographically and topographically and more physically attractive city. I do also have to say that I believe Tulsa does have alot of envy towards OKC because it continues to grow and add more things where Tulsa is a bit on the slow side in growing and does not have the effective leadership that OKC does.

What I posted on TulsaNow has nothing to do with what I was talking about here I was just trying to tell you guys about Hard Rock in Tulsa. On Tulsa Now I posted on what I think about OKC and thats that.

OK, I took a trip over to The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow - Index (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum).

I'm sorry you had to wade into that cesspool of a forum.

What I posted on TulsaNow has nothing to do with what I was talking about here I was just trying to tell you guys about Hard Rock in Tulsa. On Tulsa Now I posted on what I think about OKC and thats that.

That's that. I guess so. I'll take that as meaning "no, there's nothing constructive to be gained from what you've been saying."

If there were something constructive to be gained, something to show you weren't just trying to pit the two cities against each other, I'd imagine you would have educated us as to what it was.

I have alot of friend in Dallas and next time they come to Oklahoma they will stay at the Hard Rock NOT for the casino but for the hotel. You have to remember the Hard Rock Hotel will be a big draw not just the casino alot of people will stay at the hotel and go to the hard rock store but never step foot in the casino.

I feel sorry for anyone who books a hotel room there, I am sorry to break it to you, but that Indian casino hotel has horribly decorated rooms, at least for my taste. It reminds me of a Holiday Inn blended with an OLD Radisson.