View Full Version : Self defense - Racist style



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PennyQuilts
05-29-2009, 05:23 AM
This story just gets worse. The Oklahoman reports that those kids were with a 31 year old adult male who was driving the get away car. The adult got out of prison last summer and had served 12 - 13 years for robbery and kidnapping. He was driving a stolen car. The car was stolen about week before and the moron was apparently still driving it.

Where are these kids' dads? Why in the name of god were they being allowed to run with a thirty something year old man who CLEARLY sent those kids in so THEY would be the ones in trouble if it hit the fan. I do not know how these parents can have the audacity to protest that this is racist when they aren't taking care of business in their own families. It is easier to blame faceless others than to straighten out their own homelife. If they want to be mad at someone, they ought to start with this adult career criminal who used those kids to continue his crime spree.

PennyQuilts
05-29-2009, 06:29 AM
The more I read about this story the angrier I get at the senselessness of it. I just want to slap (not really) the mother of the surviving teen robber. I KNOW she is worried as any mother would, but I think she is just a flat out crappy parent. She "loves" her son but she couldn't make a good decision to save her soul. She lies for him - and thinks that is just part of being a parent. She is utterly clueless about parenting and her responsibilities to the rest of us.

She blames others for his actions and to a point, I can see it. But she has some control over who this kid hangs with. Or she should. If she doesn't, who the hell does? Because she didn't have control over her child, other people DIED. Other people's lives are ruined. She is not the only one at fault but she is a big part of it.

Parents like her have kids they aren't prepared to parent, they let them run wild, then look around, wide eyed asking, "What happened? I never thought this would happen!" You could see this happening five years down the road.

She worries about losing him to the state of Oklahoma when she should have been concentrating on not losing him to the street. She LOST him to the street before he ever pulled on a mask and walked into that place. It is too late at this point to wring her hands. Kids are savages if they aren't civilized. Hell, we confine pitbulls. But no one was confining this little thug running around out there with a gun and opposable thumbs. I am going out on a limb here but I am willing to bet this kid has been been pretty much running the street for a couple of years. Where did he meet this criminal adult that led him astray? I'm betting mom's hook-up. Or someone he runs with on a regular basis. She either brought that adult criminal into their home or sent her kid out to the street. Either way, crappy parenting.

She says he is "learning" from his mistakes. He hasn't learned squat. He is just freaked out that it went bad. And at this point, it isn't about him. When he picked up that gun and went into that store, society can't really be too worried about whether he learns or not. They need to be protected from that animal. Parents need to understand that if they want their kids to have a good life, they have to teach them to respect the rights of others to have good lives. When kids throw away consideration for others, they lose the right to have society care about them, too. That part of the contract seems lost on some people.

I am so sorry this pharmacist's life is being ruined over this waste of humanity. And I am refering to the one who got away. Thanks, Mom. You did a real service to your community. If you want to blame someone, take a look in the mirror. Kids don't raise themselves and boys need dads. Maybe his dad is there and just not speaking up. Sounds like he hasn't been speaking up for awhile.

Yes, I know this is sanctimonious. And probably unfair. But it steams me to see potential thrown away on stupid or nonexistent parenting. We all make mistakes as parents but this is a lifestyle mistake. I'm betting. This woman's instincts were to cover for him. He is out there with guns menacing total strangers to rob them and she is willing to protect him from his consequences. She has NO concept that she brought this child into the world and has a sacred trust to protect us from HIM. It is part of the parenthood contract.

I repeat - where is this kid's dad? This woman has NO business bringing a child into this world and dropping him into society with no more help than she was giving him. Kids don't raise themselves. What a waste.

Grrrr.

From KOCO: Pharmacy Robbery Not Son's Idea, Mom Says - Oklahoma City News Story - KOCO Oklahoma City (http://www.koco.com/news/19596493/detail.html)

"My son made a mistake, and he is learning from this mistake," she said.

She said that Ingram and Antwun Parker went into the store on May 19 and most likely planned to rob it. Pharmacist Jerome Ersland shot and killed Parker. Ersland has been charged with first-degree murder.

"Antwun's mom lost her son," Spigner said. "I really feel if I don't fight for my son, I am going to lose him to the state of Oklahoma."

She said she knew about her oldest son's involvement but didn't tell police.

"He wanted to go downtown, but me, being a parent, I had to protect him," she said.

She said that the robbery wasn't the boys' idea. She blames Emanuel Mitchell, who was charged Thursday with driving the getaway car. She said Mitchell and another man put the boys up to it, though police have not mentioned any other names.

"When you have older men telling kids, 'We are going to do this and you are going to get some money,' they are going to listen," she said.

She said her son has been traumatized by the whole ordeal.

"He is 14 years old, and he ain't no monster," she said. "He never did none of this in his life."

Jevontia Ingram will be in juvenile court on Friday. District Attorney David Prater will have to decide whether to charge him as an adult.

Midtowner
05-29-2009, 07:10 AM
"Antwun's mom lost her son," Spigner said. "I really feel if I don't fight for my son, I am going to lose him to the state of Oklahoma."

Too late.


21 O.S. 801: Any person or persons who, with the use of any firearms or any other dangerous weapons, whether the firearm is loaded or not, or who uses a blank or imitation firearm capable of raising in the mind of the one threatened with such device a fear that it is a real firearm, attempts to rob or robs any person or persons, or who robs or attempts to rob any place of business, residence or banking institution or any other place inhabited or attended by any person or persons at any time, either day or night, shall be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction therefor, shall suffer punishment by imprisonment for life in the State Penitentiary, or for a period of time not less than five (5) years, at the discretion of the court, or the jury trying the same.

bandnerd
05-29-2009, 07:30 AM
Where are these kids' dads?

Do you really have to ask that question? They very well might be in jail, too. Wherever they are, I'm sure they would be such great role models that these kids would have thought more than twice about....ah, who am I kidding, here?

Frankly, it wouldn't shock me if the 31 year old driver of the getaway car put the kids up to it, offering them something in exchange. He might have told them it would be easy, that an old guy like that would be easy pickin's. That it's done all the time. That the kids would get a share, or some drugs that they could sell, or whatever.

Totally speculating here, but when I read how old the getaway driver was, that was my first thought. Because these kids often come from broken homes, feeling like they have no way out, and are easily manipulated into a life of crime.

drumsncode
05-29-2009, 08:02 AM
The more I read about this story the angrier I get at the senselessness of it. I just want to slap (not really) the mother of the surviving teen robber. I KNOW she is worried as any mother would, but I think she is just a flat out crappy parent. She "loves" her son but she couldn't make a good decision to save her soul. She lies for him - and thinks that is just part of being a parent. She is utterly clueless about parenting and her responsibilities to the rest of us.

She blames others for his actions and to a point, I can see it. But she has some control over who this kid hangs with. Or she should. If she doesn't, who the hell does? Because she didn't have control over her child, other people DIED. Other people's lives are ruined. She is not the only one at fault but she is a big part of it.

Parents like her have kids they aren't prepared to parent, they let them run wild, then look around, wide eyed asking, "What happened? I never thought this would happen!" You could see this happening five years down the road.

She worries about losing him to the state of Oklahoma when she should have been concentrating on not losing him to the street. She LOST him to the street before he ever pulled on a mask and walked into that place. It is too late at this point to wring her hands. Kids are savages if they aren't civilized. Hell, we confine pitbulls. But no one was confining this little thug running around out there with a gun and opposable thumbs. I am going out on a limb here but I am willing to bet this kid has been been pretty much running the street for a couple of years. Where did he meet this criminal adult that led him astray? I'm betting mom's hook-up. Or someone he runs with on a regular basis. She either brought that adult criminal into their home or sent her kid out to the street. Either way, crappy parenting.

She says he is "learning" from his mistakes. He hasn't learned squat. He is just freaked out that it went bad. And at this point, it isn't about him. When he picked up that gun and went into that store, society can't really be too worried about whether he learns or not. They need to be protected from that animal. Parents need to understand that if they want their kids to have a good life, they have to teach them to respect the rights of others to have good lives. When kids throw away consideration for others, they lose the right to have society care about them, too. That part of the contract seems lost on some people.

I am so sorry this pharmacist's life is being ruined over this waste of humanity. And I am refering to the one who got away. Thanks, Mom. You did a real service to your community. If you want to blame someone, take a look in the mirror. Kids don't raise themselves and boys need dads. Maybe his dad is there and just not speaking up. Sounds like he hasn't been speaking up for awhile.

Yes, I know this is sanctimonious. And probably unfair. But it steams me to see potential thrown away on stupid or nonexistent parenting. We all make mistakes as parents but this is a lifestyle mistake. I'm betting. This woman's instincts were to cover for him. He is out there with guns menacing total strangers to rob them and she is willing to protect him from his consequences. She has NO concept that she brought this child into the world and has a sacred trust to protect us from HIM. It is part of the parenthood contract.

I repeat - where is this kid's dad? This woman has NO business bringing a child into this world and dropping him into society with no more help than she was giving him. Kids don't raise themselves. What a waste.

Grrrr.

From KOCO: Pharmacy Robbery Not Son's Idea, Mom Says - Oklahoma City News Story - KOCO Oklahoma City (http://www.koco.com/news/19596493/detail.html)

"My son made a mistake, and he is learning from this mistake," she said.

She said that Ingram and Antwun Parker went into the store on May 19 and most likely planned to rob it. Pharmacist Jerome Ersland shot and killed Parker. Ersland has been charged with first-degree murder.

"Antwun's mom lost her son," Spigner said. "I really feel if I don't fight for my son, I am going to lose him to the state of Oklahoma."

She said she knew about her oldest son's involvement but didn't tell police.

"He wanted to go downtown, but me, being a parent, I had to protect him," she said.

She said that the robbery wasn't the boys' idea. She blames Emanuel Mitchell, who was charged Thursday with driving the getaway car. She said Mitchell and another man put the boys up to it, though police have not mentioned any other names.

"When you have older men telling kids, 'We are going to do this and you are going to get some money,' they are going to listen," she said.

She said her son has been traumatized by the whole ordeal.

"He is 14 years old, and he ain't no monster," she said. "He never did none of this in his life."

Jevontia Ingram will be in juvenile court on Friday. District Attorney David Prater will have to decide whether to charge him as an adult.

Excellent post!

PennyQuilts
05-29-2009, 08:11 AM
Not sure how excellent it was - more like a primal scream. I HATE seeing these kids tossed aside by parents. And maybe I am reading it wrong - dunno. One thing I didn't see in any of the interviews with mom was anything to the effect of, "Who IS this guy???? I never heard of him! What was he doing near my son!?"

Oh, she knew him, all right. Knew he was a robber and a kidnapper and that her son was around him. And that her son would do that because he was promised money (her claim), tells me that like a lot of kids he hasn't been taught the difference between right and wrong and that he hasn't made the connection between working and income. She thinks stealing is something logical. And without the values aspect, I guess it is.

kevinpate
05-29-2009, 08:33 AM
> I am so sorry this pharmacist's life is being ruined over
> this waste of humanity.

Not defending the lads who, by intent or trick, were stupid enough to get involved in the attempted heist. However, based on the information released, the pharmacist carries 98% of his own misfortune when it comes to any ruin in his life.

Sure, he might of had some nightmares if the head shot had left the one lad DRT.
He might have had some depression over a brush with death, provided of course there actually was a shot fired in his direction, and thus far that remains less than clear.

But the decision to later fire the kill shot via multiple rounds center mass, that decision is his, and his alone.

Can it be mitigated down from its charged level of premeditated intent? Sure, and he's hired a counsel well known for reaching out and bringing parties to an acceptable middle ground. There are others better known for their pitbull approach to courthouse cage matches if that were the overall plan,

However, that the young robbers, and the adult who apparently guided them, were flat wrong in their conduct doesn't turn his kill shot conduct into anything beyond what it was, a bad decision by the pharmacist, one selected from several options available to him after the immediate threat had subsided. I know some think Prater is an idiot, but I don't share that sentiment.

As noted before, I don't believe for a second there will be a trial, but I do believe in the end there will be justice. And in the end, there will be folks at both extremes who are not satisfied with the result. There usually are when something is negotiated toward the middle ground.

trousers
05-29-2009, 08:57 AM
I believe that this is the Emanuel Mitchell (http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=237211&offender_book_id=128526) in question. If so, a real class act.

PennyQuilts
05-29-2009, 09:01 AM
I believe that this is the Emanuel Mitchell (http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=237211&offender_book_id=128526) in question. If so, a real class act.

Christ. As you say, a class act. This b*stard sent 14 and 16 year old boys in to do his dirty work. I don't give the kids a bye but they sure had more than their share of adults work them over.

ronronnie1
05-29-2009, 09:13 AM
Okay, if the pharmacist did indeed go back in and shoot the kid to death when the kid was obviously no longer a threat, then the pharmacist should be tried for SOMETHING.

But forgive me for not crying over the dead kid.

FritterGirl
05-29-2009, 09:23 AM
Question for Midtowner, other local legal experts:

Does Oklahoma law allow for either of the other perpetrators to be charged with "accessory to murder."

When I lived in Florida it seems there was a big case about this

Two perps (1 armed, 1 unarmed) entered a home to rob it. Perp 1 was shot & killed by homeowner. Perp. 2 fled, but was later caught by police. As I recall, he was tried for breaking/entering as well as accessory to murder.

Midtowner
05-29-2009, 10:54 AM
I don't think that crime would work. The sort of murder which is usually charged in conjunction with robbery is a felony murder. A felony murder occurs anytime someone kills someone else in the commission of a violent felony -- usually burglary, assault, rape, arson or kidnapping. An exception to felony murder, however, is that you can't be charged for the death of an accomplice.

To illustrate, if instead of the robber being killed here, the robbers killed one of the ladies in the store or the pharmacist, all three would be guilty of felony murder, but like I said, that doesn't work here.

I was actually thinking that the 31 year old, depending on his involvement, if he cajoled them into this act and it was all his idea, ought to have some sort of exposure in excess of 5 years in prison.

I'm not a big Oklahoma Criminal Law expert, so if someone reading this is, feel free to correct me. I am, (since I'm in the middle of studying for the Bar Exam) somewhat proficient on crimes at common law, i.e., stuff that would have been a crime in 13th century England.

There is a theory of murder liability called "depraved heart" murder. In Oklahoma, I believe that it's a species of Second Degree Murder. The Second Degree Murder statute (21 O.S. 701.8) reads as follows:


Homicide is murder in the second degree in the following cases:

1. When perpetrated by an act imminently dangerous to another person and evincing a depraved mind, regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual; or

Depending on how far this other 31-year-old individual went to create this dangerous situation, convincing a couple of teenagers to rob a store for him, I think his actions more than likely fit the elements of second-degree murder. To charge the younger kid with that crime would be a stretch. Felony murder obviously doesn't work, not even the lesser species because of the co-felon exception, but that, I don't think, has to be the end of the story.

Thunder
05-29-2009, 10:57 AM
Good question, FritterGirl. I'd like for the DA to go crazy on the charges aganist this kid and press for maximum allowed prison sentence. I'm not sure on accessory to murder, but maybe manslaughter can be filed.

If the DA goes easy on the kid, then that makes him a much more worse DA.

FFLady
05-29-2009, 12:25 PM
Maybe Jevontia was just trying to help out his momma, whom it looks like just lost her house --- (assuming this is her)

>OCIS Case Summary for SC-2009-8620- Kalidy Homes Llc v. Natasha Spigner (Oklahoma County District Courts) (http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=2470888&db=Oklahoma)

dismayed
05-29-2009, 12:42 PM
ECO, I agree. The whole thing is just very sad. Kind of makes me sick in my stomach to think about it. Have to wonder how far in denial the thugs parents are in for them to make the statements they have in the media... so sad that the victim's life is now in such turmoil due to his response....

nighttrain12
05-29-2009, 03:16 PM
Since you posted that poll, it now says:
Yes 82% (23030 votes)No 18% (5059 votes)
Total Votes: 28089

That means since you last posted the poll results, the change is:

Yes 11 votes
No 70 votes

This convinces me they reversed the numbers by mistake and the 'No' votes are really still the same solid 80% on whether to prosecute or not.

I know this poll is UN-scientific but something is really acting screwy about it today. Earlier today it was YES-23124, NO-5382, which means the NO votes were still increasing at about a 80% rate. However, I checked back just now and it says YES-34425, NO-5404. I can just hit refresh on that screen and it increases the YES votes about 100 votes and 0 for the NO's. It appears now someone has hacked into it and is running up the YES votes.

fuzzytoad
05-29-2009, 04:57 PM
went up about 2 minutes ago on newsok.com:

"Prosecutors today charged two adults and a 14-year-old boy with first-degree murder in connection with the death of a teen killed in a May 19 robbery attempt."
link (http://newsok.com/da-files-additional-murder-charges-in-pharmacy-shooting/article/3373558?custom_click=lead_story_title)

nighttrain12
05-29-2009, 05:10 PM
Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater initially said he would not charge anyone but Ersland in connection with Parker's death because it was the result of Ersland's actions, not the robbery try.

He said he reconsidered after researching the law.


How could he not know that already? Maybe he needs to research the law some more and lessen the charges against Ersland.

drumsncode
05-29-2009, 06:01 PM
went up about 2 minutes ago on newsok.com:

"Prosecutors today charged two adults and a 14-year-old boy with first-degree murder in connection with the death of a teen killed in a May 19 robbery attempt."
link (http://newsok.com/da-files-additional-murder-charges-in-pharmacy-shooting/article/3373558?custom_click=lead_story_title)

This case is getting crazier all the time! It's going to be more compelling than the O.J. trial.

PennyQuilts
05-29-2009, 06:08 PM
The second adult is 42 years old. Jesus Christ on a cracker.

jstanthrnme
05-29-2009, 06:47 PM
This seems like a story that Oprah's producers should pick up on. .

fuzzytoad
05-29-2009, 07:26 PM
This seems like a story that Oprah's producers should pick up on. .

please god no

nighttrain12
05-29-2009, 09:06 PM
This seems like a story that Oprah's producers should pick up on. .

Or Nancy Grace.

Karried
05-29-2009, 09:47 PM
oh God no.. not Nancy Grace... aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhggggggggggggggggggggggggg!

This is unreal.

Thunder
05-29-2009, 10:25 PM
Any chance this trial will make headlines across the nation and televised for hours each day?

CuatrodeMayo
05-29-2009, 10:35 PM
The 14-year-olds mom is almost unbearable to listen to during interviews...

Midtowner
05-29-2009, 11:14 PM
Any chance this trial will make headlines across the nation and televised for hours each day?

This probably will not go to trial. Less than 1% of cases go to trial.

nighttrain12
05-30-2009, 01:36 AM
This probably will not go to trial. Less than 1% of cases go to trial.

That's only if both sides are willing to comprise and I don't see that happening here. The DA has to charge Ersland with something but I don't see Ersland admitting to anything. He'll take his chances with a jury.

Heck, we could have multiple trials. Not guilty in the first one. Then the federal civil rights trial, then a civil case trial filed by the Mother of robber #2.

gmwise
05-30-2009, 05:44 AM
Lots of this on here all of the sudden:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/880_ZERO/InternetToughGuy.jpg


LOL.
I have to agree with Midtown on that.

kevinpate
05-30-2009, 05:51 AM
For those surprised, bad adults have used youth for the heavy lifting for a long long long long time.

Had this been a robbery sans any deaths, if the youth get away clean, the adults take the lion share, with props to the kiddos and promise of more easy money as they earn their way to respect. If they don't get away clean,they are juvi's, they are facing different consequences, particularly if they stand like men and don't mention the adult 'mentors'.

Guns change things. As for the DA reconsidering after further research, it wasn't a clear question straight out of the box that the junior robber and his mentors could be charged with felony murder, but I do think the DA has, yet again, made the correct call.
Any adult facing the felony murder can be death eligible, should the DA lean that way. It doesn't take a great deal to press death eligibility.

Predictions
Ersland - plea to something other than M1
(I truly do not see the man taking is changes on a jury)
Adult 'mentors' - pleas as charged, not max sentencing
(doesn't need to be now that we have the 85% serve before parole rule)
Youthful robber
(probably works out a plea via the youthful offender act, and whether he makes it to adult prison depends on attitude and actions during the sentence. After all, they'll need him to testify against the 'mentors' )

gmwise
05-30-2009, 06:04 AM
please god no

OMFG, lets hope O is hibernating.

PennyQuilts
05-30-2009, 06:37 AM
Predictions
Ersland - plea to something other than M1
(I truly do not see the man taking is changes on a jury)
Adult 'mentors' - pleas as charged, not max sentencing
(doesn't need to be now that we have the 85% serve before parole rule)
Youthful robber
(probably works out a plea via the youthful offender act, and whether he makes it to adult prison depends on attitude and actions during the sentence. After all, they'll need him to testify against the 'mentors' )

I wouldn't bet against you, especially on the adult thugs and the kid. The kid will turn himself inside out to stay in juvenile court and that means singing. The two adults will be in jail a long time and any probation/parol they might be on will be revoked in addition to what goes with these charges. Did you see that second adult? Mercy. Looks like someone ran over his head.

Midtowner
05-30-2009, 07:32 AM
For those surprised, bad adults have used youth for the heavy lifting for a long long long long time.

Had this been a robbery sans any deaths, if the youth get away clean, the adults take the lion share, with props to the kiddos and promise of more easy money as they earn their way to respect. If they don't get away clean,they are juvi's, they are facing different consequences, particularly if they stand like men and don't mention the adult 'mentors'.

Guns change things. As for the DA reconsidering after further research, it wasn't a clear question straight out of the box that the junior robber and his mentors could be charged with felony murder, but I do think the DA has, yet again, made the correct call.
Any adult facing the felony murder can be death eligible, should the DA lean that way. It doesn't take a great deal to press death eligibility.

Predictions
Ersland - plea to something other than M1
(I truly do not see the man taking is changes on a jury)
Adult 'mentors' - pleas as charged, not max sentencing
(doesn't need to be now that we have the 85% serve before parole rule)
Youthful robber
(probably works out a plea via the youthful offender act, and whether he makes it to adult prison depends on attitude and actions during the sentence. After all, they'll need him to testify against the 'mentors' )

I dunno if the felony murder indictments will stick. The Oklahoma statute is unclear on co-felon liability (in that it's not even mentioned), but Oklahoma has adopted the common law. At common law, co-felons can't be held liable for the death of a co-felon in the commission of a dangerous felony.

These convictions will go to the criminal court of appeals... and they'll be convicted because each of the suspects thus far has confessed.

kevinpate
05-30-2009, 07:03 PM
It'll stick Mid.

With respect, the statutes address the matter, and the question has previously been decided by the Court of Criminal Appeals. Check out the Dickens decision at 2005 OK CR 4, 106 P.3d 599 (Case Number: F-2003-544, Decided: 02/04/2005)

Not identical facts, but more than close enough to be a wet blanket for the players involved in the robbery side of the current mess.

twinkles
05-30-2009, 07:15 PM
And the forty-two year old was pals with the mom. Did you see that, ECO? You called it.

Midtowner
05-30-2009, 08:56 PM
It'll stick Mid.

With respect, the statutes address the matter, and the question has previously been decided by the Court of Criminal Appeals. Check out the Dickens decision at 2005 OK CR 4, 106 P.3d 599 (Case Number: F-2003-544, Decided: 02/04/2005)

Not identical facts, but more than close enough to be a wet blanket for the players involved in the robbery side of the current mess.

I've checked it and you're right to an extent. First off, the OCCA has not expressly adopted the proximate cause test over the agency test (although, they just about have. Second, even Dickens isn't really on point because Ersland's killing the robber is what I'd definitely argue as being an unforeseeable supervening act which cuts off liability.

Further, Dickens was decided by a 3-2 vote with a strongly written dissent. Since that time, Judge Lewis has been appointed to the OCCA by Brad Henry. My guess is that he and the other two votes which remain would be bigger fans of the agency theory version of the felony murder doctrine rather than the proximate cause theory, especially considering that the vast majority of the states have adopted the agency theory.

BB37
05-30-2009, 09:23 PM
I'm sure glad I don't live in Oklahoma County anymore. I sure wouldn't want to sit on that jury.

As others have said re the pharmacist, I don't see any Oklahoma jury ever convicting him of murder 1. If it doesn't get pleaded down to a lesser charge, the jury will select a lesser finding.

The two "adult" ex-cons, who put the kids up to commiting the robbery, should have the book thrown at them. Hopefully this is their 'third strike.'

nighttrain12
05-30-2009, 09:32 PM
I've been talking to my relatives in Wisconsin and California on the phone the last few days and the first thing out of their mouths is wanting to talk about this case. LOL I think it is going to be a long drawn out national case like the Bernhard Goetz situation. He also 'overdid' it on shooting those 4 thugs that tried to rob him on the subway but the law only convicted him on illegal firearms possession. Also, he was found guilty in civil court for many millions of dollars but of course making 20K a year, he has never paid any of it.

nighttrain12
06-01-2009, 01:52 PM
http://newsok.com/pharmacist-in-oklahoma-city-shooting-case-gives-up-guns-to-defense-attorney/article/3374244?custom_click=lead_story_title

Ersland gave up all his guns to his defense attorney, Irven Box as partial payment for lawyer services. The Judge wanted to know exactly how many guns he owned (for whatever reason) and now he doesn't have to tell because of his 5th amendment rights. The Judge is mad because she feels like she got tricked by Ersland and Box. LOL

BBatesokc
06-01-2009, 02:45 PM
Everything about this story is tragic. I don't blame DA Prater for charging Ersland. I feel the DA has an obligation to enforce the law without emotion or regard to popular opinion. I also feel the jury has an obligation to interpret the law in the community's best interest and acquit him.

Whatever the end, the damage has been done.

Ersland is now and forever either a hero or a child killer.

His defense will most likely bankrupt him as I don't know a quality lawyer that will defend murder 1 for less than $100,000.

I was interviewed by FOX25 the other night regarding this case because of a conversation I had with a reporter a long time ago.

While I am a big fan of an individual's right to carry a gun, I am a bigger fan of that person fully realizing the awesome responsibility and liability that comes with carrying and potentially using a weapon of deadly force.

I feel way too many people casually buy a weapon secure in their vigilante/cowboy mentality that when the time comes they will let their gun settle the score and potentially save their life. The problem though most often is that most people buy a gun without ever knowing how they will really act when put in a situation where they feel threatened. Some people can remain calm and continue to make rational decisions. Most however simply react and often with blinders on.

Many times I have been in a situation where I felt my safety and/or life could be in danger. I am not only licensed to carry a concealed weapon but I am trained and licensed as an armed private investigator. That being said I choose to carry nothing more than a taser and reserve the guns for home protection.

I do not want to find myself one day standing before a judge and jury trying to convey the fear I felt when I pulled the trigger.

fuzzytoad
06-02-2009, 10:07 AM
Is anyone else finding Judge Bass-LeSure's actions during this whole thing a bit strange?

kevinpate
06-02-2009, 10:27 AM
> during this whole thing

There are those who would opine that's too limiting a phrase. I'm not well enough acquainted with her activities here or in other matters to shake my head yea or nay on the matter.

However, ya gotta hand it to Box in this circumstance. Not everyone can two step that well in tennis shoes

fuzzytoad
06-02-2009, 10:31 AM
> during this whole thing

There are those who would opine that's too limiting a phrase. I'm not well enough acquainted with her activities here or in other matters to shake my head yea or nay on the matter.


Well it just seems strange to me that both times she's(that I know of) seen the defendant, the DA has supported and defended Mr. Ersland's attorney when confronting a decision of the Judge..

I'm not acquainted with her activities either and I don't know if this is a common occurance with the DA in other cases, so I wondered if anyone else found it strange or am I just imagining things?

nighttrain12
06-02-2009, 12:25 PM
http://newsok.com/druggist-jerome-ersland-says-he-feared-for-life-during-shooting/article/3374434?custom_click=lead_story_title

The pharmacist Jerome Ersland has done an interview further explaining his actions. He thought the robber that was shot was trying to get back up and was talking to him so he shot him 5 more times in self defense to protect himself and the 2 other female employees there.

Midtowner
06-02-2009, 12:48 PM
He should really STFU. This interview differs greatly from the one he gave immediately after the event. He's running dangerously close to shooting his credibility straight to hell.

venture
06-02-2009, 12:50 PM
This is one of those cases where it really sways me. It'll all come down to exactly what happened. First and foremost, if someone is going to cause harm to me - I'm taking them out. However, once they are subdued i'm kicking the weapon away and keeping a gun aimed at him until police arrive. If he is fatally wounded on the first shot, nothing to worry about. If he is trying to get up and cause harm again, by all means defend yourself.

This sounds like the store owner let the primal instincts take control and lost control. If the robber wasn't moving or severely wounded, you don't casually (from what the video looked like) walk over and pump him with 5 more rounds. If it comes down to where this is the case, sorry...he crossed a line and goes away.

drumsncode
06-02-2009, 02:12 PM
He should really STFU. This interview differs greatly from the one he gave immediately after the event. He's running dangerously close to shooting his credibility straight to hell.

I'm guessing Irven Box is pulling some brilliant tactics and making chess moves to get what he wants down the road. I just have that feeling. He was right there during the interview, so that interview was "very" deliberate, and he has his client saying what he wants to be said in an arena of his choosing.

I bet he'll have no trouble getting a change of venue either, and he can wave goodbye to the obnoxious judge that both attorney's don't seem to like.

This is going to be the best trial of the decade if I don't miss my guess.

The one charge I'm not sure I agree with is murder-one on the 14 year-old kid. In his situation, it seems more like he's a "hostage of a pimp" so to speak, and being made to perform acts due to extreme pressure and coercion.

And can we charge the mother's of the kids involved for just being stupid and worthless? (Hey, I was just hoping.)

Midtowner
06-02-2009, 02:55 PM
This interview plays right into the prosecutor's hands. No chess games here other than that Box is previewing his case to the public. He's probably trying to build pressure on the D.A. to offer a respectable plea bargain. I'll be shocked if this thing ever goes to trial.

If it does go to trial, the prosecutor is going to have the defendant nailed down giving two different accounts (at least) of the events -- one before he obtained legal counsel, which turned out not to match up with the forensics, and a different story after being given the opportunity to build a plausible story based upon the real facts at the scene ( a story which is still markedly different from the story originally told).
\

BailJumper
06-02-2009, 08:57 PM
First, I can't believe he hired Irven Box. Box in my opinion is a hack and prefers to plea his client even if it sells him/her out in the process. A much better pick would have been Garvin Isaacs. I'm familiar with his record and his preference to avoid the media spotlight. Excellent trial lawyer.

The problem is that Prater will be in the middle of his re-election battle when this thing goes to trial. Its no secret downtown that Box panders to whomever is DA of the moment. I can see him advising his client to take whatever plea deal Prater feels takes this monkey off his back and thus makes Prater indebted to Box in the process.

I agree, it is unlikely this thing will go to trial. The defendant does not have the funds or the stamina to face the trial for his life.

kevinpate
06-02-2009, 09:14 PM
It is the rare defendant who can be protected by flapping his own lips, prior to conviction anyway.

Thunder
06-02-2009, 10:27 PM
Maybe OKCTalk should sponsor a donation drive to fund his' defense?

nighttrain12
06-02-2009, 10:29 PM
Maybe OKCTalk should sponsor a donation drive to fund his' defense?

Or we could all donate our guns to his lawyer .... plus a few comic books.

dismayed
06-02-2009, 11:32 PM
This interview plays right into the prosecutor's hands. No chess games here other than that Box is previewing his case to the public. He's probably trying to build pressure on the D.A. to offer a respectable plea bargain. I'll be shocked if this thing ever goes to trial.

If it does go to trial, the prosecutor is going to have the defendant nailed down giving two different accounts (at least) of the events -- one before he obtained legal counsel, which turned out not to match up with the forensics, and a different story after being given the opportunity to build a plausible story based upon the real facts at the scene ( a story which is still markedly different from the story originally told).
\

I totally agree. When I saw the O'Rielly Factor interview the other night I just had to cringe. It looked to me like the pharmacist had been rehearsed to the point of not even telling the same story anymore. I agree with you, they are torching their own ground as they go. I think Box must just be trying to create a huge amount of public/media pressure on the DA to plea the thing down and never go to trial.

fuzzytoad
06-02-2009, 11:40 PM
Or we could all donate our guns to his lawyer .... plus a few comic books.

the new 21st century currency.. guns and, umm.. comic books

that being said, I *will* keep an eye on Box to see if he sells any of Ersland's weapons, and how much he tries to sell them for..

Will the judge(i really want one of those) and the kel-tec he used in this incident go back to him or to the lawyer after the trial?(if he's exonerated)

drumsncode
06-03-2009, 06:49 PM
They caught the last suspect they were looking for. His comment to a question aired on NEWS 9 was, "I ain't did nuthin'", which I believe is a very stylish dialect of Ebonics.

He's obviously a very well-educated man, yet another proud product of our welfare system.

Let's translate into the King's English for those of you who actually went to school and paid attention.

First, we translate to "I am not did nothing", then correct for grammar and structure and we can derive a couple of variations: "I did not do anything", or the somewhat more terse "I did nothing".

Snoop Dogg would be proud. Class dismissed.

This trial is going to be so good I'd almost pay to see it.

Midtowner
06-03-2009, 07:20 PM
Nah... they'll more than likely get a confession out of him. The dumb ones always confess.

They usually fall hook, line and sinker for the "If you cooperate right now, things will be easier for you" line.

Thunder
06-03-2009, 10:05 PM
The way I look at it... "I ain't did nuthin" says he didn't do nothing... Get it? Did not do nothing, so in a way, he DID DO something, since he DID NOT do nothing.

There ya go, guilty as a squirrel looking at an oncoming tire.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
06-04-2009, 12:28 AM
The way I look at it... "I ain't did nuthin" says he didn't do nothing... Get it? Did not do nothing, so in a way, he DID DO something, since he DID NOT do nothing.

There ya go, guilty as a squirrel looking at an oncoming tire.

Double negative much?:fighting3

nighttrain12
06-04-2009, 12:38 AM
Makes you wonder how he talked those 2 teenagers (I refuse to use the word kids or children to describe them) into robbing a pharmacy.

fuzzytoad
06-04-2009, 01:05 AM
(I refuse to use the word kids or children to describe them)

soldiers?