As an outgrowth of the Deep Deuce Collection, I've done this article: Doug Dawgz Blog: Jim Crow In Oklahoma City (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/05/jim-crow-in-oklahoma-city.html) and I invite you to have a look.

All history is certainly not nostalgic, and this is one such example.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/JimCrowLaws/jimcrowlogo3.jpg

One somewhat off-topic but nonetheless interesting item I ran across in my research for this article was the discovery of what was probably Oklahoma City's 1st sit-in ... well, a park-in, I guess. The following is the Daily Oklahoman's September 7, 1907, story about it:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/JimCrowLaws/jimcrow_1907_09_07_1stsitin.jpg

I'm speechless.

Daily Oklahoman 1907 quote:

"...with crisp, brown chicken legs in one hand, and large slices of juicy watermelon in the other..."

Truely disgusting.

Schools in South OKC

Jefferson Davis
Robert E. Lee
Stand Waitie
Jackson Jr. High

North OKC

Lincoln
Washington............................

I don't mean to make excuses for it but racism is an extension of the time period. It is hard to look at or think in a real racist mindset. Most of us that is. 100 years ago blacks were subhuman. Just as the Jews were in Nazi Germany. I don't know where you live but if you are in the central part of the U.S. bigotry encompasses a different color.
From Oklahoma heading to Canada skin color begins to get lighter until in Canada the word ****** is moved aside and Indian takes it's place.

This small piece does not fully explain what I mean but I hope it offers some understanding as to where I am coming from..........

Interesting observations about the north/south school names.

As to your other message, you lost me ... unless your point is that the mindset of a racial majority which is disposed to be bigoted will vary from region to region as to what other racial (or religious, since in your illustration of Nazis & Jews both groups would be regarded as white, even if not arian) group should be regarded as inferior to the majority group.

Aside from that, as far as I'm aware, the term Indian is not and hasn't been a pejorative term anywhere, unless I'm mistaken, which of course is not at all true with ****** which is a derisive term.

That said, I don't think that I understand what you are trying to say.

Nice find Doug.
A study of the Dread Scott case will bring to to further light.
SCOTUS ruled incorrectly that Blacks were not human in the same sense we were.
Now case law came to play again in Roe v Wade we are not dealing with a human being.
Do a quick search and you will find Sanger rallying with the KKK.

Study Dread Scott in light of the progressive's of Late 19th and early 20th century. President Wilson divided blacks and whites in the military, FDR upheld this, it took Truman to end this "Jim Crow" practice.

quote:
"...the term Indian is not and hasn't been a pejorative term anywhere..."

My aunt told me stories about how when she was growing up here in Oklahoma that the kids would taunt her calling her "Indian" because she was darker then them (Lebanese.) So yeah, Indian was used as a perjorative term in the 50's. Funny thing is now everyone and their dog is "half Cherokee."

Oh yes, I agree - Up north near Newkirk my best friend's grandparents would use that word as if somene were just nasty. I've heard it from others, too, but not much in years.

Good intentions Doug, but yeah, might consider research into Native American racism in the US and Oklahoma as a followup. As a descendant of Cherokee, an African slave, and twice-deposed Irish (I think I, along with most Oklahomans, shouldn't really be considered Anglo's, but mutts or pure Americans) I'm just past it. I try to consider people for their values and not their skin color, and when one does--black, white, or brown--I generally just dismiss them as jackasses.

Everyone, every culture has undergone some form of racism and, just the same, has projected it. We're animals; we make mistakes. Jim Crow sucked, NINA sucked, Indian Removal Act sucked, Panthers sucked, the misguided attacks on Mexicans suck. We just need to own up to it and get past it. No reparations for anyone. Just move on.

Interesting observations about the north/south school names.

As to your other message, you lost me ... unless your point is that the mindset of a racial majority which is disposed to be bigoted will vary from region to region as to what other racial (or religious, since in your illustration of Nazis & Jews both groups would be regarded as white, even if not arian) group should be regarded as inferior to the majority group.

Aside from that, as far as I'm aware, the term Indian is not and hasn't been a pejorative term anywhere, unless I'm mistaken, which of course is not at all true with ****** which is a derisive term.

That said, I don't think that I understand what you are trying to say.

Sorry to say but the further north you do travel racism towards Indians surpasses the feelings for blacks.
I worked the dock for a trucking company and they did business with a Canadian company which came through twice a week. A driver used the word Indian and then apologized for being so vulgar.

Whereas you hear the word ****** for blacks here, as you head northward the term becomes prairie-******.

I do not intend to cause harm to anyone but using the word's as examples.

I have a 14 year old granddaughter who is biracial and I love her more than life itself!!!!

quote:
"...the term Indian is not and hasn't been a pejorative term anywhere..."

My aunt told me stories about how when she was growing up here in Oklahoma that the kids would taunt her calling her "Indian" because she was darker then them (Lebanese.) So yeah, Indian was used as a perjorative term in the 50's. Funny thing is now everyone and their dog is "half Cherokee."
That's a good point and an interesting twist. The whites would see that being called "Indian" was a slam, even though Indians being called Indians wasn't. In that sense, the term Indian wasn't like the term ******.

But, I understand what you're saying. Through her father, my wife has Indian blood in her, and my wife is heavily involved in Native American interests, both professionally and personally. But, when my wife and her brother wanted to talk with him and learn about their "Indian side" when he was still alive -- he was a laborer who worked the Seminole and southern Kansas oil fields, probably others, in the 1920s-1940s -- he refused to even talk about his "Indian" side, something he clearly saw as something not to be proud of and, in fact, to hide.

Good intentions Doug, but yeah, might consider research into Native American racism in the US and Oklahoma as a followup. As a descendant of Cherokee, an African slave, and twice-deposed Irish (I think I, along with most Oklahomans, shouldn't really be considered Anglo's, but mutts or pure Americans) I'm just past it. I try to consider people for their values and not their skin color, and when one does--black, white, or brown--I generally just dismiss them as jackasses.

Everyone, every culture has undergone some form of racism and, just the same, has projected it. We're animals; we make mistakes. Jim Crow sucked, NINA sucked, Indian Removal Act sucked, Panthers sucked, the misguided attacks on Mexicans suck. We just need to own up to it and get past it. No reparations for anyone. Just move on.
As you might see from my reply to ronronnie1, above, but, if not, I'm well aware of the injustices, and much worse, that were the plight of Native Americans. In my home, I am probably surrounded by around 3,000-5,000 books (I don't have a count, but they are EVERYWHERE) in my wife's library about Native American (north and south America) stuff, certainly including scores of books which focus on Oklahoma, and certainly including Angie Debo. I am neither ignorant nor unmindful of the Native American's history in Oklahoma.

But, this article's focus is on Jim Crow laws which did not involve Indians -- by constitutional definition adopted in 1907, Oklahoma had but two races for legal purposes: those of African descent of any degree who were classified as "coloreds," and those who didn't, who were classified as "white." The blacks, alone, received the special constitutional, legislative, and city ordinance treatment described in the Jim Crow article.

But, about "moving on," yes, I agree that we should. But moving on does not mean ignoring history and/or not being aware of it. Else the same mistakes of the past have a greater chance of repeating themselves in the future.

What this brings to my mind at present are my own personal feelings about our middle-eastern citizens as well as Mexican Americans who are the ones presently receiving special treatment from the Oklahoma Legislature.

As to those of middle-eastern descent, I acknowledge that it bothers me when I see women in the city wearing head-to-toe garments, even worse, veils. I am very aware, as everyone doubtless is, about the cause for this concern, probably fear and/or animosity. I do not say that it is easy for me to digest and/or apply our pre-current-era racial history with the current one, in this respect and context.

If we are to learn from past mistakes, I am of the opinion that history should not be ignored. It must be embraced and reconciled and digested. That's what I will continue to do.

Thanks, papaOU, for your reply and expressions. I now understand better what you were saying.

That's a good point and an interesting twist. The whites would see that being called "Indian" was a slam, even though Indians being called Indians wasn't. In that sense, the term Indian wasn't like the term ******.

But, I understand what you're saying. Through her father, my wife has Indian blood in her, and my wife is heavily involved in Native American interests, both professionally and personally. But, when my wife and her brother wanted to talk with him and learn about their "Indian side" when he was still alive -- he was a laborer who worked the Seminole and southern Kansas oil fields, probably others, in the 1920s-1940s -- he refused to even talk about his "Indian" side, something he clearly saw as something not to be proud of and, in fact, to hide.

The granddaughter I spoke of took a summer trip with some of her classmates to Washington, D.C. two summers ago. While discussing the itinerary a question was raised as to what time of day the children would most likely tolerate The Holocaust Museum.
Most anglo's don't want to hear or know nothing about that era in American history.
Without missing a beat I made the statement that I did not see the National Museum of the American Indian listed. Getting some blank stares I simply said, "OH! Wrong Holocaust".

The granddaughter I spoke of took a summer trip with some of her classmates to Washington, D.C. two summers ago. While discussing the itinerary a question was raised as to what time of day the children would most likely tolerate The Holocaust Museum.
Most anglo's don't want to hear or know nothing about that era in American history.
Without missing a beat I made the statement that I did not see the National Museum of the American Indian listed. Getting some blank stares I simply said, "OH! Wrong Holocaust".
:tiphat:

While discussing the itinerary a question was raised as to what time of day the children would most likely tolerate The Holocaust Museum.Most anglo's don't want to hear or know nothing about that era in American history.

What???? I never heard that or had anyone else suggest that. The Holocaust Museum has been very popular since they opened it.

What???? I never heard that or had anyone else suggest that. The Holocaust Museum has been very popular since they opened it.

ECO go back to your "make out spots"

I am comparing the Jewish holocaust in Europe and that same holocaust that is still going on in the America's. The Holocaust of the American Indian. Probably a large number of non Indian's will claim it did not happen and is still not happening.

Sorry to get off subject Doug. Will not linger any longer. Thanks

:backtotop

ECO go back to your "make out spots"

I am comparing the Jewish holocaust in Europe and that same holocaust that is still going on in the America's. The Holocaust of the American Indian. Probably a large number of non Indian's will claim it did not happen and is still not happening.

Sorry to get off subject Doug. Will not linger any longer. Thanks

:backtotop

Sorry, I thought you meant the Jewish holocaust. That was what caught me by surprise.

ECO go back to your "make out spots"
I am comparing the Jewish holocaust in Europe and that same holocaust that is still going on in the America's. The Holocaust of the American Indian. Probably a large number of non Indian's will claim it did not happen and is still not happening.
Sorry to get off subject Doug. Will not linger any longer. Thanks
:backtotop

Not a problem. A valid analogy.

We can add a new twist to the blog and include gays and lesbians. They are a group of people that cannot marry and are bashed on a regular basis. Yes, even in the "Great State of OH-klahoma. :poke:

We can add a new twist to the blog and include gays and lesbians. They are a group of people that cannot marry and are bashed on a regular basis. Yes, even in the "Great State of OH-klahoma. :poke:
It ain't easy bein' green.

Here's a question dealing with The Deep Deuce and Jim Crow. I once read that one of okc's famous jogs as a result of survey mess-ups was allowed to remain in order to keep the peace between blacks ans whites.

It's the area that Broadway and such follows the railroad lines north but then moves west into the "car alley" (is that what it is called?).

If you are not aware of it I'll search my book collection for the chapter. I think it is in a book about law enforcement. Think it's the one centered around Bill Bishop.

I'm not knowledgeable about that, papaOU. The only "jog" in my memory is the mismatch of surveys south and north of Grand (Sheridan) but I don't think that preservation of THAT jog had anything to do with race and that jog wasn't in the Deep Deuce area at all -- but, of course, this jog existed before Deep Deuce did.

I have majorly updated the Jim Crow page so it reads better and is less cluttered with graphic articles. Most articles are now accessible via links with the essence of the articles covered by text in the article. Made some "fact" corrections, also.

I remember riding the bus downtown with my mother in the '50s. Black people sat in the back of the bus and I couldn't, being a little white boy. We went to Children's Hospital, a state-run institution and there were whites-only restrooms and colored restrooms as well as water fountains and waiting rooms. It made no sense to me then and makes no sense to me now, looking back. We went downtown once in about '57 or '58 and encountered a sit-in at Green's lunch counter (Katz was across the street and there was a sit-in there, too). Mom took me down the street to John A. Brown's department store to avoid any trouble (there was none).

Thanks, RealJimbo, good comment.

RealJimbo, there is something majorly wrong with something in your set-up ... don't know for sure what it might be but the visual impression is less than expected and desired ... I suspect that it has to do with your avatar's size, which appears to be taking up the whole horizontal screen. Probably, you need to crop your avatar so that it doesn't include space beyond the borders of the actual image.

Jim Crow in Oklahoma City??...Nah,..Id rather see the Black Crowes in Oklahoma City!!

Jim Crow in Oklahoma City??...Nah,..Id rather see the Black Crowes in Oklahoma City!!
What is it that you meant to say in plain speech, mireaux (before anyone jumps to conclusions)?

What is it that you meant to say in plain speech, mireaux (before anyone jumps to conclusions)?

you never heard of the band, The Black Crowes?!??..youve got to be kiddin me.

take the Chet Atkins 8 track out of your truck for a change.

No. Never did.

I know is a little off topic, but where would Asians have gone to school? My mom went to Central and didn't remember any Asians OR Blacks but she didn't know about other schools and their set-up.

My Father said when he was growing up he and his family as well as other whites were never really around blacks. Some rode the same bus to Chandler but were almost completly over looked. He graduated from Central and of course none there. As far as jokes and humor went all were "Pat and Mike" jokes. Jabs at the Irish.

Racial segregation was "white" and "black", the constitutional definition of "colored" being a person with any degree of African blood. Everyone else was constitutionally "white."

Racial segregation was "white" and "black", the constitutional definition of "colored" being a person with any degree of African blood. Everyone else was constitutionally "white."

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Hey guy, I can still remember the labeled "Colored" & "white" on the water fountains in Woolworth's...also, the Colorers could NOT used the bathroom inside in Ardmore, Oklahoma....At the last meeting I brought a copy of the Ideals of the Ku Klux Klan. Will loan it to you to make a copy if your want for your Archives. I can NEVER remember being around all white Kids...I am just enough Native American on one side as I can remember that My Grandmother on the other side was relatives to the Younger Gang (rode with Frank and Jesse James).....Which is right/////????? Which is wrong?????Color should never enter when a friendship or anything else comes up.....It's the not the color of a man's skin, it's the size of his heart and faith that grows within...See ya dude...I found some really neat old things in my in-laws barn....
By the way, I am from OKLAHOMA and proud to be called an "Okie". The "N" that gets everyone riled up should remember that most of the first Slaves brought to America were captured from a country called NIGAR or Nigeria as most of us know it now....Please don't jump back for a few days I've got the Flu.....but I have so many friends of Color that I don't even think I can count that far..... Ya Ta Hey.....Kemo Sabe....

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Hey guy, I can still remember the labeled "Colored" & "white" on the water fountains in Woolworth's...also, the Colorers could NOT used the bathroom inside in Ardmore, Oklahoma....At the last meeting I brought a copy of the Ideals of the Ku Klux Klan. Will loan it to you to make a copy if your want for your Archives. I can NEVER remember being around all white Kids...I am just enough Native American on one side as I can remember that My Grandmother on the other side was relatives to the Younger Gang (rode with Frank and Jesse James).....Which is right/////????? Which is wrong?????Color should never enter when a friendship or anything else comes up.....It's the not the color of a man's skin, it's the size of his heart and faith that grows within...See ya dude...I found some really neat old things in my in-laws barn....
By the way, I am from OKLAHOMA and proud to be called an "Okie". The "N" that gets everyone riled up should remember that most of the first Slaves brought to America were captured from a country called NIGAR or Nigeria as most of us know it now....Please don't jump back for a few days I've got the Flu.....but I have so many friends of Color that I don't even think I can count that far..... Ya Ta Hey.....Kemo Sabe....
Thanks, Generals64,

Yes, it is in my "list of things to do" to make a very thorough article on the Klan, and I'd love to have a copy of Ideals of the Ku Klux Klan, understanding, of course, that the title is an oxymoron. It would be great background for the article.

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Hey guy, I can still remember the labeled "Colored" & "white" on the water fountains in Woolworth's...also, the Colorers could NOT used the bathroom inside in Ardmore, Oklahoma....At the last meeting I brought a copy of the Ideals of the Ku Klux Klan. Will loan it to you to make a copy if your want for your Archives. I can NEVER remember being around all white Kids...I am just enough Native American on one side as I can remember that My Grandmother on the other side was relatives to the Younger Gang (rode with Frank and Jesse James).....Which is right/////????? Which is wrong?????Color should never enter when a friendship or anything else comes up.....It's the not the color of a man's skin, it's the size of his heart and faith that grows within...See ya dude...I found some really neat old things in my in-laws barn....
By the way, I am from OKLAHOMA and proud to be called an "Okie". The "N" that gets everyone riled up should remember that most of the first Slaves brought to America were captured from a country called NIGAR or Nigeria as most of us know it now....Please don't jump back for a few days I've got the Flu.....but I have so many friends of Color that I don't even think I can count that far..... Ya Ta Hey.....Kemo Sabe....

Never got into the racial nonsense either. While growing up my friends were mostly Native American or Hispanic. Often went down to the Salvation Army Club on S.W.5 and Hudson. Played basketball, ping pong, football, you name it all were integrated. Played basketball with the Lion's Center at 37Th and S. Robinson. Now that did not have any blacks there but the teams we played were integrated or totally black.
When busing in Okc started I went to Capitol Hill Jr. High and on to Capitol Hill High School. Always caught hell from people I knew because they were made up of black and white's. NEVER TOOK SIDES!!

Thanks, Generals64,

Yes, it is in my "list of things to do" to make a very thorough article on the Klan, and I'd love to have a copy of Ideals of the Ku Klux Klan, understanding, of course, that the title is an oxymoron. It would be great background for the article.

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Done deal..I'll get it to you pretty quick...

I can remember Northwest OKC( NW 63 & Meridian area ) being very segregated when I grew up there in the 60's and 70's. The only blacks we ever saw were the city garbage men. Us kids would always use the "N-word" when taunting each other. I went to Putnam City schools and I'm trying to think when I saw the first black kids in any of the schools I went to. I think it was early 70's. I do remember neighbors talking about it and coming up with ways to rationalize it.

Quite simply, in the 60's, if anyone saw a black man in the neighborhood they would call the police. That was the mind set. We don't think that way now, but what it was is what it was.

I also remember the school busing controversy and many families moving to the Putnam City district to escape it.

Mike

I grew up at that time and lived on the east side until 1975. Millwood was about 98% black at the time so I was a definite white minority and treated like garbage, beat up and called all kinds of racial slurs at school, daily - any minority tends to be treated that way when the majority feels superior and empowered. I moved to the 63rd and Classen area in 1975, then out to Bethany in 1977. It has certainly become more diverse over time but I still don't recall it being so bad that the police would be called if anyone saw a black person. But that was the 70's, perhaps the 60's were different. But that is history - the sad thing is that to this day, there is still a tendency for groups to flock together, and it isn't about being shunned, it is because of preference, the need/want for certain types of homes in a given price range, schools, etc.

I grew up at that time and lived on the east side until 1975. Millwood was about 98% black at the time so I was a definite white minority and treated like garbage, beat up and called all kinds of racial slurs at school, daily - any minority tends to be treated that way when the majority feels superior and empowered. I moved to the 63rd and Classen area in 1975, then out to Bethany in 1977. It has certainly become more diverse over time but I still don't recall it being so bad that the police would be called if anyone saw a black person. But that was the 70's, perhaps the 60's were different. But that is history - the sad thing is that to this day, there is still a tendency for groups to flock together, and it isn't about being shunned, it is because of preference, the need/want for certain types of homes in a given price range, schools, etc.

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hey my friend.....I think it's hard to think about someone beating YOU up.....Even Prunepicker is afraid of you...lol

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hey my friend.....I think it's hard to think about someone beating YOU up.....Even Prunepicker is afraid of you...lol

Why do you think I'm so tough NOW??? I was a skinny little white girl with a thick southern drawl (which tagged me - obviously! - as someone who wanted to keep black people down). The girls' gym locker room was hell on a daily basis.

Why do you think I'm so tough NOW??? I was a skinny little white girl with a thick southern drawl (which tagged me - obviously! - as someone who wanted to keep black people down). The girls' gym locker room was hell on a daily basis.

I am glad to hear from you. Was thinking about you at Coit's.

I grew-up smack dab in the middle of Capitol Hill, 26th and Lee. I don't remember ever seeing (noticing) a black other than at the Boy's Club, 5th and Hudson. I think I was I was in 8th grade at CHJH when the busing started. By the time I was attending CHHS it was bands against bands. Or bands against one.

I was looking through the Oklahoman's archives classifieds. I was surprised to see the many ads that had "white's only" or no blacks.

Thanks, Generals64,

Yes, it is in my "list of things to do" to make a very thorough article on the Klan, and I'd love to have a copy of Ideals of the Ku Klux Klan, understanding, of course, that the title is an oxymoron. It would be great background for the article.

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Done deal..I'll get it to you pretty quick...
Tic toc tic toc the mouse ran up the clock ...

Tic toc tic toc the mouse ran up the clock ...

oops, I forgot.....I'll bring it to the next meeting....Sorry

How about,

Hicory dicory doc,
The mouse ran up the clock.
The clock struck one,
The mouse ran down.
Hickory dickory doc.

Does this have something to do with Jim Crow laws?
Am I missing something?

I grew-up smack dab in the middle of Capitol Hill, 26th and Lee.
I don't remember ever seeing (noticing) a black other than at the
Boy's Club, 5th and Hudson.
There was a black kid at Heronville in 1959. I know because I
was there. We were all standing in line waiting to get a drink
after recess. When the black kid got his drink this nut raised up
his hand and says, "we can't drink from here!" I said, "why", and
he pointed at the black kid. "What matter does that make?"
We all pushed around him and drank from the fountain and
nobody died. I had no idea what he was talking about until a
few years later. We weren't raised to be racists or to hate
people who looked different.

That was so stupid.

There was a black kid at Heronville in 1959. I know because I
was there. We were all standing in line waiting to get a drink
after recess. When the black kid got his drink this nut raised up
his hand and says, "we can't drink from here!" I said, "why", and
he pointed at the black kid. "What matter does that make?"
We all pushed around him and drank from the fountain and
nobody died. I had no idea what he was talking about until a
few years later. We weren't raised to be racists or to hate
people who looked different.

That was so stupid.

My former Mother-in-law was born in England raised in Canada ans spent most of her life in Southern California. She met and married a Louisiana boy in San Diego during WWII. Since he spent his younger years in La. working rail yards, he was not allowed to go overseas. After the war they would take a trip every 2 or 3 years to see his family. Roads were cruddy and no a/c in the cars. She packed enough clothing to wear out, while they were and wash the clothes for a return trip. Her sister-in-law took her into town. Big sign on front door: WHITES ONLY! We can't go here, I have colored clothes as weel

I went to Harding High, which became Harding Jr. High and I then went to Northeast High. I was bused there for most classes and went to math at John Marshall, as part of the cluster plan. Kids from NE, Marshall, NW and Classen were bused all over the city to more than one school a day, in an attempt to desegregate the schools. My family fervently believed in desegregation, but this did not integrate the communities. We had no chance to have extracurricular activities at the schools we attended for different subjects. It was a shallow attempt to end de facto segregation and it only lasted a couple of years.

North East High School was naturally desegregated and had very
few racial problems. The problems they had most likely weren't
due to race but of boys being boys.

For the life of me I can't see how sending kids from one school
in their neighborhood to another neighborhood where they didn't
know anybody could solve any problems. From what I learned
about the busing joke was that it was supposed to provide the
best education for the students. Why didn't they bus the
teachers, like they do the music teachers, instead of the kids?
That way the kids would have the same teachers and be with
their friends.

Good grief!

How about,

Hicory dicory doc,
The mouse ran up the clock.
The clock struck one,
The mouse ran down.
Hickory dickory doc.

Does this have something to do with Jim Crow laws?
Am I missing something?
No ... it just relates to something that Generals64 intended to get to me about the Klan a year or so ago but forgot ... which I am absolutely confident that he will do. We're all getting old, don't you know?

The comfortableness that many of us now have (me included) about white/black racial mixes did not come easily. Whether busing helped or didn't, I don't know, but I suspect that it did. But the comfortableness that many if not most of us now have with white/black mixtures on every conceivable level ... social, business, friends, sexual, marital ... that type of thing would not likely have come on its own without some force pressing the matter so that whites and blacks would come to look at themselves closely and see that, but for skin color, they were otherwise the same. That was certainly not the mindset in the 1950s and 1960s, probably later, and, for some, even today.

The comfortableness that many of us now have (me included) about white/black racial mixes did not come easily. Whether busing helped or didn't, I don't know, but I suspect that it did. But the comfortableness that many if not most of us now have with white/black mixtures on every conceivable level ... social, business, friends, sexual, marital ... that type of thing would not likely have come on its own without some force pressing the matter so that whites and blacks would come to look at themselves closely and see that, but for skin color, they were otherwise the same. That was certainly not the mindset in the 1950s and 1960s, probably later, and, for some, even today.

It is a little off topic but yesterday while I was working on a quilt, I had on an oldies radio station. So many of the songs from the fifties and sixties described relationships between men and women that would get people strung up and beaten if they voiced them, today. There has been a huge shift in attitude towards the role of women in the past fifty years. Listening to the words about women that were accepted without a raised eyebrown even that recently was a reminder about how fast a generation can change attitudes. My own kids would be horrified at those types of attitudes, perhaps not realizing that their own grandparents didn't think twice about thinking of women in those terms - and that includes the women.

When my youngest was in kindergarden, she kept talking about Sheavon, a classmate. When I finally met him, he turned out to be an African American little boy. My daughter was too young to be coy - it just never occured to her to mention that he was black. Wasn't even on her radar. When I see the differences in attitudes in that generation, I have to give credit to their parents (and grandparents who may have kept their mouths shut) for being able to rise above their prejudices to the extent they did. Moreover, I tend to think that many who are utterly convinced that Americans are racists and bigots are living in the past. Not only are they not giving credit to the generation that raised the under 35 somethings, they are ignoring the evidence before them that we are making great progress.

Does that mean that we don't have prejudices? Of course not. But unless someone honestly looks to compare where we are now with where we were not that long ago, they can't conceive of how far we've come in the right direction. Young people who spot racism, even benign, are disgusted and it makes them angry. I think that is more a testament to the world they have grown up in than anything else. I'm sorry they don't see that.

And for what it is worth, I think we all have our biases - it is part of being human to develop stereotypes and some "fear" of people who are different. A survival mechanism. Education and wisdom is what turns that around - not rage. MLK had it right.

Growing up in the 1950's and 1960's the only African Americans I actually knew were men who worked on crews of one kind or another. My grandparents, who were born not so long after the Civil War, lived across the driveway from us. There was a vast generational difference between their attitudes towards race and my parents' attitudes. I think this difference must have arisen from the integration of the military and the influence of World War II but I really don't know why.

The first time I really recall seeing overtly racist signs was in downtown Oklahoma City at Bishop's (I think it was). I recall being confused by the signage and later my dad explained to me that some people were biased against some people because of their skin color but that wasn't true and I shouldn't feel that way. I had the distinct impression he had more pity for the people he characterized as racist than anything else and I'm certain that influenced my own belief.

Later in my early work experience I remember several men proudly showing me their Klu Klux Klan membership cards that they removed from their billfolds. I was shocked that these particular men were KKK for one thing and even more shocked that they were proud of it and even that the KKK had membership cards.

When I was in college at OU there was one African American student that I came to know somewhat because he was in the same major.

In 1967 I drove to Miami to watch the 1968 Orange Bowl. I recall passing through Selma, Alabama and stopping to make a phone call home. We were afraid of Selma because of the publicity about the violence just a little earlier. The place we went to make the phone call was totally segregated and the phone was in the black section. We felt a whole lot safer in that section than in the whites section. There was a young man who watched our car and us the entire time from across the street with a rifle slung over his arm. We were all really glad to get out of the south.

Then I vividly recall so many white people I knew at the time leaving northeast Oklahoma City because an African American family moved in down the street. Really that was before busing I think.

Definitely much better now.

It is a little off topic but yesterday while I was working on a quilt, I had on an oldies radio station. So many of the songs from the fifties and sixties described relationships between men and women that would get people strung up and beaten if they voiced them, today. There has been a huge shift in attitude towards the role of women in the past fifty years. Listening to the words about women that were accepted without a raised eyebrown even that recently was a reminder about how fast a generation can change attitudes. My own kids would be horrified at those types of attitudes, perhaps not realizing that their own grandparents didn't think twice about thinking of women in those terms - and that includes the women.

When my youngest was in kindergarden, she kept talking about Sheavon, a classmate. When I finally met him, he turned out to be an African American little boy. My daughter was too young to be coy - it just never occured to her to mention that he was black. Wasn't even on her radar. When I see the differences in attitudes in that generation, I have to give credit to their parents (and grandparents who may have kept their mouths shut) for being able to rise above their prejudices to the extent they did. Moreover, I tend to think that many who are utterly convinced that Americans are racists and bigots are living in the past. Not only are they not giving credit to the generation that raised the under 35 somethings, they are ignoring the evidence before them that we are making great progress.

Does that mean that we don't have prejudices? Of course not. But unless someone honestly looks to compare where we are now with where we were not that long ago, they can't conceive of how far we've come in the right direction. Young people who spot racism, even benign, are disgusted and it makes them angry. I think that is more a testament to the world they have grown up in than anything else. I'm sorry they don't see that.

And for what it is worth, I think we all have our biases - it is part of being human to develop stereotypes and some "fear" of people who are different. A survival mechanism. Education and wisdom is what turns that around - not rage. MLK had it right.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++UH:...You are definitely right....I admire those with the fortitude to stand on what is right. However, Your statement was right on the nose....Oh yeah I think you must have been a well versed Lawyer....

I read these statements and agree with all of them. But, I have a hard time with ANYONE when they have to have a title attached to themselves....African-American, Native American, Asia American....Irish-American....I am an American .... don't judge me by my ancestors....I can remember very vividly playing with little kids.....we called them "colored"....Never did like the N word. However that only is a designated country that most Black people's ancestors came from....(Nigeria which in the day was a country called "Nigar")...study your history....then the kids were called "Black"....then African-American.....I would imagine that more that 98% of the Blacks in America have NEVER been to African. My Ancestory goes back to the Chickasaw nation...Once again, I am just an American...I don't get upset when the Cowboys kill the Indians on T.V. nor when the Cavalry attacks and kill all the women and children in the village.... Custer found a surprise didn't he?
we as AMERICANS (don't worry about color) should stand together and interact together as men and women of GOD.....O.K., get mad that's o.k.....Right now, the only one that I care about being mad is PapaOU because I promised to be at the Grant/Capitol Hill game and didn't go.....another story.....I don't mean to upset anyone. But, just imagine what it would be like if there were no Color lines....or religious beliefs......Personally, I have some very close friends that are black and some very close friends that are white......I know some white people I WON'T associate with and I know some Black people I won't associate with.....I even have a little girl (3 years old) straight from China that her parents adopted and got her straight from China and she thinks of me as a Grandpa.....Talk about being proud......Love ya all...See ya next time (I hope) Generals64.....

Listening to the words about women that were accepted without a raised eyebrow even that recently was a reminder about how fast a generation can change attitudes. My own kids would be horrified at those types of attitudes, perhaps not realizing that their own grandparents didn't think twice about thinking of women in those terms - and that includes the women.
Oh, come on, Penny .... surely you're just funnin' us ... what tunes? I can't think of a one that disrespected women. Long Tall Sally? Little Darlin'? Only You? Little Star? Peggy Sue? Gimme your best shot ... Chantilly Lace?

Oh, come on, Penny .... surely you're just funnin' us ... what tunes? I can't think of a one that disrespected women. Long Tall Sally? Little Darlin'? Only You? Little Star? Peggy Sue? Gimme your best shot ... Chantilly Lace?

Oh good heavens, my dear - they treated women like children and talked about coming home to cold pots while she was out with her friends - and that wasn't even one of the oldest ones!

Or maybe it was this:

Hey-hey, Bertha Lou
I wanna conjugate with you
You know my blood is running wild
And I know you ain't no child
When you do what you do, Bertha Lou
(Rock! Rock! Rock! - Instrumental break)

It wasn't verbs he was wanting to conjugate with her. (snort snort)